What is the next Adventure Path hardcover?


Pathfinder Adventure Path General Discussion

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You want to see some downright unfriendly elves, look up the Darhel. :-)


The OCD in me wants them to do SD, then Legacy of Fire. But SD would be a straight PITA... so... just do Legacy of Fire.

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Samy wrote:
I wonder if they could use the Modules line, if it ever comes back, to make a story that plugs a gap of just those levels, and would be set in the same area. Not anything that would be explicitly marketed as a Book 2.5, but something that wink-wink, nudge-nudge, could slot into that slot easily for people who wanted something there.

Speaking purely for myself, I would love to see some modules that could be slotted into old adventure paths here and there (such as Dawn of the Scarlet Sun for Shattered Star). That would serve the dual purpose of giving people playing adventure paths more material to work with - or extending the campaign if they want to run on the slow XP progression - and offering shorter adventures for those who don't want to run a full path.

Sczarni

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Douglas Muir 406 wrote:


Rise of the Runelords: 5 out of 6 modules sold out many years ago, long out of print. (The one you can still buy? Skinsaw Murders. Yeah, I don't know either, it's a great module. Guess they just overprinted, way back when. But hell, you could drop $5 and pick up Skinsaw Murders right now and it would totally be worth it.)

Skinsaw murders is the only AP volume to ever get a reprint - it is also the reason no other APs got reprints

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
Zaister wrote:
I believe the hardcover APs are intended to be evergreens, i.e. to be reprinted when stock is low

Okay. Cite? Because I'm not aware of anyone from Paizo ever saying anything about keeping any AP or splatbook in print indefinitely. And we know they're perfectly content to let ordinary AP volumes go OOP forever.

Quote:
and I assume the Rise of the Runelords hardcover has probably had several print runs by now.

Okay. Cite? Because I'm not aware of Paizo ever mentioning new print runs on the AP hardbacks.

Doug M.

I can confirm most of that, with a slight adjustment: We won't reprint a hardcover just because stock is low; we have to believe that there is also enough continuing demand for that product to justify it, and it also has to continue to fit into our overall product strategy.

Sovereign Court

Hythlodeus wrote:

Elves being jerks is older than Tolkien. That goes way back to Germanic and Scandinavic folklore. Even Titania and Oberon in Midsummer Night's Dream were huge dicks.

'Nice' Elves, I know, would confuse the hell out of my players and would be seen as uncharacterisic for those asshats.

...

In Midsummer Night's Dream, the fairies ('elves' is used generically about 4 times) are mischievous but well-meaning.

Oberon plays a prank on his wife after an argument, it goes too far and he feels really bad and fixes everything.
He asks Puck to fix the lovers problems, it goes wrong and he makes Puck fix the problems.

The one piece of mischief is giving Bottom a donkey head for a few hours, from one especially, um, puckish, fairy: Puck.

And they bless the wedding and make sure everyone has a good night.

I wouldn't call that being 'huge dicks'.

---

More generally, the elves of tabletop-rpg-land are Tolkein's creations. Before him 'elf' was a generic term which shared space with fairy, sprite, spirit, goblin...

Tolkein's elves represent the noble/myserious/magical side of the fairy stories, with an extra large dollop of humanity on top.

Just as, in tabletop-rpg-land, sprites represent the 'is it a fairy, is it a dragonfly' concept and brownies represent the helpful-goodie-two-shoes fairy and redcaps represent another type of fairy altogether.
(Interestingly, PF has a preponderance of evil fey).

Folklore is full of good and weird and nasty and all other sorts of spirits and fairies. They could be mean baby-stealers in one story and altruiatic shoemaker-savers in another.

But Tolkein invented RPG-elves, we all know that. Let's not pretend otherwise.


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Cpt_kirstov wrote:
Douglas Muir 406 wrote:


Rise of the Runelords: 5 out of 6 modules sold out many years ago, long out of print. (The one you can still buy? Skinsaw Murders. Yeah, I don't know either, it's a great module. Guess they just overprinted, way back when. But hell, you could drop $5 and pick up Skinsaw Murders right now and it would totally be worth it.)
Skinsaw murders is the only AP volume to ever get a reprint - it is also the reason no other APs got reprints

I didnt know that until this thread.

Reprinting that is probably the only reason I became a Paizo customer. When I discovered them, they were just starting CotCT. My game store had AP issue one and then three onwards. There was no way I was going to have a 2 shaped hole in my collection so I looked Paizo up on the internet (more impressive than it sounds) to see that they had it in stock.

Then I stalked them for six months, to be sure they weren’t dodgy, untrustworthy foreigners before I trusted them with my credit card, bought all the issues at my store (we were up to SD by then) and issue two from Paizo. It took about six months before I’d subscribed to everything and backordered everything I could find.

Maybe I would have thought of EBay at some point, but it’s quite likely that reprinting issue two was the key determinant in retaining me as a customer (compiling Shackled City was what initially caught my attention). So it’s probably paid for itself, even if it appeared to be idle capital for a while.

It’s funny to think about but one’s life is heavily shaped a series of these apparently minor decision moments, largely made by other people.

Liberty's Edge

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

1) There won't be another hardcover any time soon. Like, certainly not this calendar year, and very probably not before 2020.

There will be a hardcover AP of Kingmaker, released sometime this year between August, 2018 at Gencon (most likely) to November, 2018 (less likely).

The reason is obvious: Kingmaker is sold out and Owlcat's computer game for Pathfinder: Kingmaker, the first major computer game to feature the Paizo AP is slated to be released between August to November 2018.

Are you seriously suggesting that Paizo is going to see the first release of a major computer game to ever feature their IP -- and they won't even have a print copy of the Adventure Path that game is based on to sell to somebody who wants it? Really? It's Paizo Publishing. The name tells you all you need to know.

Please appreciate that the people who may want it may not even be regular players of Pathfinder RPG. And you think Paizo is not going to have a book to sell to that untapped market -- and maybe gain a longer term customer? Because of something you think that they said on an Internet message forum four years ago? Not a chance.

No way does that happen. The chances of Paizo not having a hardcover compilation of a revised Kingmaker AP, featuring new art and new maps, encounter zones and areas created by Owlcat for the forthcoming computer game (so they can sell the revised AP book to owners of the old Kingmaker AP, too) are... drum roll

ZERO percent. This is a done deal, take-it-to-the-bank, 100% lock.

The only way it doesn't happen this year is that Owlcat says that their game can't ship until well into 2019 -- AND Owlcat tells Paizo this sometime in the next ~60 days or so. Because otherwise, in order to print that book in China and get it back across the Pacific ocean in time for Gencon, Paizo's decision to print will need to be made no later than late April/early May. Basically, less than two months from now. Maybe I'm a liar and it's three months. Whatever the case - the "print by date" is looming.

Alternatively: Paizo decides that "just in time" printing doesn't work for this release, and they decide to print anyway and then -- if they have to -- sit on the book with it in inventory until Owlcat is ready. That's bad for cashflow, as they would have printing costs for the book sitting in inventory *and* storage costs for it, too. That would suck a LOT, actually. I'm sure Paizo doesn't want to do that if it is at all possible to avoid it.

Oh, has Paizo announced the hardcover release for Gencon 2018 yet? Nope. They haven't. Have they ever left an announcement like that this late?

Nope. Never. This is unprecedented. The reason why is Owlcat and the inherent unpredictability of computer game release dates. That's what makes this one different. Paizo isn't sure yet when this thing is going to come out. They hope Gencon - but they aren't sure. This time, Paizo doesn't really control the release date of the book, because they don't control the release date of the computer game.

So they aren't sure that Owlcat will release at that time yet, and the marketing strategy is, to the extent possible, harvest the synergy of hooplah surrounding the computer game to bolster and hype the book's release. It's free publicity in the computer game hobby/website press. Paizo doesn't want to miss out on that.

I suppose this could be all mad, unbridled, baseless speculation on my part.

But, there's still been no Gencon announcement, and everything about what I've said above makes strong commercial sense. It fits the facts.

Dark Archive

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Umm, why would they want to release hardcover version of AP because of CRPG version where every player would spoil the Pen & Paper version for themselves?

I mean, seriously, audience for them wouldn't cross over much since its much worse spoiling campaign for yourself in advance than spoiling video game for yourself in advance.


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Steel_Wind wrote:
I suppose this could be all mad, unbridled, baseless speculation on my part.

well, you might be right about THAT

I just don't believe PAIZO would or could release a HC this August, which is basically in 5 months, without there being any signs of announcements right now. Retailers and stores would have been already informed if that were the case.

As for Kingmaker..meh..would be the first HC Paizo would produce that I would have no interest in buying at all. That AP had probably the weakest plot of them all and is mostly popular for the reason that players and GMs have to make their own story to fill the blank pages the AP consists of. It also needs no conversion, so there's no really a point to revisit it.

So IF a new HC will be released it certainly won't happen this year and there's a snowball's chance in hell that it would be Kingmaker


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If they released it as a hardcover, they could go back and fix the weaker elements, there's certainly plenty of suggestions on the boards for that.

How far in advance did was CotCT leaked?


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The CotCT compilation was announced at the GAMA trade show (which is in March this year). I’m not really sure, but I think it’s always March.


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Steel_Wind wrote:

I suppose this could be all mad, unbridled, baseless speculation on my part.

But, there's still been no Gencon announcement, and everything about what I've said above makes strong commercial sense. It fits the facts.

I don’t think you’re mad for suggesting it. I think your confidence of 100% is misplaced.

We’re not outside the usual window of GenCon announcing yet, so I think you’re reading to much into the fact we don’t have an announcement yet. Additionally, remember that there’s a lot that goes into “which product do we produce” besides considerations such as the synergistic marketing opportunities you present here.

Paizo always have at least half a dozen products they could make money at but aren’t doing. That’s the nature of the beast - every time they announce something, there’s half a dozen “obvious money spinners” they’ve chosen not to produce.

There’s also the fact that they’ve now got a lot of stuff going out the door. They’ll be forced to be a bit more choosy about which “new, big thing” gets the focus. (The card game is being reworked, for example. After such a long hiatus of Core releases, I suspect Paizo will devote a fair bit of marketing bandwidth to that relaunch.

For my money, the “big project” this year will be a Sandpoint or Varisia boxed set, hardcover or something to coincide with the launch of Return of the Runelords.

I’m not saying you’re wrong, I just thing you’ve over estimating the weight of the evidence you cite.

Dark Archive

So noticed that while all six parts of Second Darkness are still available, only two parts of Legacy of Fire are. So yaaay, little bit higher chance that we eventually get hardcover updated version of the only Qadiran AP xD Much higher than getting second one setting there at least I think?

Silver Crusade

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Legacy of Fire takes place in Katapesh, not Qadira.

Dark Archive

Ah, sorry, for some reason I keep remembering that Katapesh is in Qadira even though it is is, well, Katapesh <_<


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There are 2-3 older threads talking about the same issues. Over and over again. Basically:


  • Second Darkness:
    Pros: 3.5 era rules; important setting lore content; chance to correct persistent bad presentation of elves in setting
    Cons: Too much work required - significantly more than previous compilations; copies of all volumes sitting in warehouse taking up space - not indicative of a strong seller.

  • Legacy of Fire:
    Pros: 3.5 era rules; Katapesh is largely untouched since release and could use an update.
    Cons: Some volumes still in warehouse - not indicative of a strong seller.

  • Kingmaker:
    Pros: Volumes are sold out, making it likely a solid seller
    Cons: Does not need to be updated as much because it is already using the Pathfinder rules.

That's pretty much the same position that each of those other threads reached (as I recall them, anyway). From the beginning, Curse of the Crimson Throne was seen as the likely second such compilation. The threads then focused on what was likely to be the third such book (if any were to be done). Since then, there are two factors that MAY influence overall position: 1) Legacy of Fire volumes have slowly continued to become unavailable and 2) there is a Kingmaker CRPG coming.

The only thing I am fairly sure of is that, unless there is someone strongly championing Second Darkness within Paizo, it will be the last candidate in the list precisely because it so much NEEDS the attention - and Paizo probably cannot afford to give it the attention it needs.

Paizo will only do a compilation book if they feel 1) it will sell enough to be profitable and 2) that they have the resources available to work on it.


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I feel like, since:
- Hardcover APs will never catch up to the monthly released ones.
- Releasing an AP in hardcover form will get people to discover it who might not have otherwise.
- People's only opinion of Pathfinder APs might come from the hardcovers.
- All APs forever will be available as PDFs until the end of time (or Paizo, I guess).

It might be wise to only do the ones you're really proud of in hardcover form.


Steel_Wind wrote:


Are you seriously suggesting that Paizo is going to see the first release of a major computer game to ever feature their IP -- and they won't even have a print copy of the Adventure Path that game is based on to sell to somebody who wants it? Really? It's Paizo Publishing. The name tells you all you need to know.

That would be the Paizo Publishing that has let the module line lapse, hasn't updated the SRD in a year and a half, and is currently well overdue on its latest AP Players Guide.

That's not a critical attack, nor is it a "fix the SRD before you do X" demand. It's just an objective statement of fact.

I've been a loyal Paizo customer for most of a decade now. I like them and I want them to succeed. But they're not miracle workers. They have a lot on their plate. And one thing that everyone agrees is that hardcover APs are a huge amount of work. Right now, Paizo doesn't look like a company that's ready and eager to throw precious staff time at a long-shot video game tie-in.

Quote:
ZERO percent. This is a done deal, take-it-to-the-bank, 100% lock.

"I wish I were as confident about anything, as Macaulay is about everything."

Doug M.


Urath DM wrote:
Paizo will only do a compilation book if they feel 1) it will sell enough to be profitable and 2) that they have the resources available to work on it.

^ This this this.

There will continue to be threads, because there are a fair number of people who loved the hardcovers, and because everyone has a favorite AP. So this conversation will go on indefinitely. But Paizo doesn't look like it has the resources right now, and it's an open question whether they would throw them at a hardcover even if they did, because it's not clear whether the hardcovers were all that profitable.

People don't want to hear it, but "None" and "Never" are strong contenders here.

Doug M.


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Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
Urath DM wrote:
Paizo will only do a compilation book if they feel 1) it will sell enough to be profitable and 2) that they have the resources available to work on it.

^ This this this.

There will continue to be threads, because there are a fair number of people who loved the hardcovers, and because everyone has a favorite AP. So this conversation will go on indefinitely. But Paizo doesn't look like it has the resources right now, and it's an open question whether they would throw them at a hardcover even if they did, because it's not clear whether the hardcovers were all that profitable.

People don't want to hear it, but "None" and "Never" are strong contenders here.

Doug M.

I agree (mostly) with what you are saying here but we heard "none" and "never" right before the Curse hardcover was announced. Mostly because I (literally) dreamed of big hardcover adventures when I was playing AD&D 2E and only Paizo ever really delivered it (there were some smaller 3E ones) I will continue to hope that there is another hardcover AP in the pipeline (and follow the conversation as it continues).

As for which one it might be. My head is persuaded by the arguments for Kingmaker (and I would buy it) but my heart would like Second Darkness revised and updated to PF if only to save me doing that myself. Updating SD also appeals to the part of me that thinks Paizo should update the 3.5E APs for neatness. I understand that neatness does not equate to profits and so my money would be on Kingmaker with "None" and "Never" a close second and third but here's hoping.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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Steel_Wind wrote:
It's Paizo Publishing. The name tells you all you need to know.

Actually, we changed our name from Paizo Publishing to Paizo Inc. in 2014.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Honestly if they were gonna do a hardcover would go for either the not yet converted 3.5 ones or council of thieves (Since was the first ap for the current system so did have a few bugs that could be fixed.)


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I would love to see the Age of Worms Hardcover. I wont hold my breath on it, due to... reasons.

I greatly prefer the hardcover format above all other formats.
While I would like to see all adventure paths eventually made into hardcovers. As a DM in this specific ongoing debate I would FAR prefer to have Second Darkness > Kingmaker!

My reason for wanting the Hard Cover is that the story was great! But the editing and the flow was horrible. They would have a chance re-review and fix the issues that have caused it to die with the bad reviews. So its like having it play tested by loving fans for years and giving feedback as what works and didn't work. To me this was the key points of me choosing ROTRL and COTCT hardcovers. The fan feed back, re-visioning and changing the shortfalls. That stuff is gold!!

Dark Archive

Thing I do worry about Second Darkess though is that as far as I know, it sounds like best way to upgrade it would be to actually split it into two different APs <_< I mean, even if you fix the level gap that gm is supposed to fill themselves with adventure that details how bunch of business owners ended up going to Kyonin from Riddleport, its still bait and switch. And I kind of doubt Paizo would do that, so I wonder on some level if Second Darkenss can be fixed without completely replacing some parts of it.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Zebbie wrote:

I would love to see the Age of Worms Hardcover. I wont hold my breath on it, due to... reasons.

And you shouldn't, because Age of Worms is property of Wizards of the Coast, not Paizo.


Gorbacz wrote:
Zebbie wrote:

I would love to see the Age of Worms Hardcover. I wont hold my breath on it, due to... reasons.

And you shouldn't, because Age of Worms is property of Wizards of the Coast, not Paizo.

Yup... reasons! Does not mean I cant dream about it however.


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CorvusMask wrote:
Thing I do worry about Second Darkess though is that as far as I know, it sounds like best way to upgrade it would be to actually split it into two different APs <_< I mean, even if you fix the level gap that gm is supposed to fill themselves with adventure that details how bunch of business owners ended up going to Kyonin from Riddleport, its still bait and switch. And I kind of doubt Paizo would do that, so I wonder on some level if Second Darkenss can be fixed without completely replacing some parts of it.

The bait and switch aspect of SD is probably the easiest problem of SD to fix, my concerns lie elsewhere.

but honestly, SD has a very strong story, some of the best set pieces written by Paizo to this day and I don't think it needs as much work as some people think it does (which still means it needs a lot)If the same AP weren't made during that experimental phase of Paizo, but today, it would have high chances to become an instant classic and bestseller

Edit: Also, I'd just love to finally see campaign traits for SD. The original version had only three different traits, so even if you play with four players in your group (and my groups are usually larger), at least one trait would be taken twice.


Hythlodeus wrote:
SD has a very strong story, some of the best set pieces written by Paizo to this day

I know about the rolling tower, what else are you thinking about?


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Hythlodeus wrote:


Edit: Also, I'd just love to finally see campaign traits for SD. The original version had only three different traits, so even if you play with four players in your group (and my groups are usually larger), at least one trait would be taken twice.

The Player Companion for Second Darkness was the first one not free, and only available for sale. It has 6 such traits.

1. Fools for Friends
2. Into Enemy Territory
3. Looking for Work
4. Optimistic Gambler
5. Researching the Blot
6. Scouting for Fiends

The Varisia: Birthplace of Legends player companion also added some new Campaign Traits for each of the older campaigns.. for Second Darkness, they were:

1. Daring Doomsayer
2. Fixer of Odds
3. Portentous Perception.


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I for one like Pratchett's take on elves from Lords and Ladies:

“Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder. Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels. Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies. Elves are glamorous. They project glamour. Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment. Elves are terrific. They beget terror. The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning. No one ever said elves are nice. Elves are bad.”

Silver Crusade

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So it begins* with Rise of the Runelords, and ends with Return of the Runelords, eh? ^w^

Technically it began with Council of Thieves I suppose, and it’s not ending, I’m just being melodramatic :3


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Rysky wrote:
So it begins* with Rise of the Runelords, and ends with Return of the Runelords, eh? ^w^

Isn't Return of the Runelords the August AP, leaving something else to be the last 1st-edition AP? Or am I misremembering?

Paizo Employee Managing Developer

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Joana wrote:
Rysky wrote:
So it begins* with Rise of the Runelords, and ends with Return of the Runelords, eh? ^w^
Isn't Return of the Runelords the August AP, leaving something else to be the last 1st-edition AP? Or am I misremembering?

You're not misremembering.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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Joana wrote:
Isn't Return of the Runelords the August AP, leaving something else to be the last 1st-edition AP? Or am I misremembering?

You are correct.

Also, those of you hoping that our key August release was going to be an AP compilation... sorry—we have other plans.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Future Hardcover AP compilation threads are going to be crazy because now updating to the new Edition has opened every AP to date that has sold out (Kingmaker I'm looking at you).

Dark Archive

If Return of the Runelords will be last 1st edition(blergh, still not used to say that and still annoyed about money I've been spending on books), that makes me afraid one after it won't be the Dominions of the Black AP since I feel like Paizo doesn't want first ap for the 2nd edition to be "unusual"?


And this explains why they've all been so very busy and distracted.

Anyway, no hardcover AP this year -- nailed that one.

Doug M.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
CorvusMask wrote:
If Return of the Runelords will be last 1st edition(blergh, still not used to say that and still annoyed about money I've been spending on books), that makes me afraid one after it won't be the Dominions of the Black AP since I feel like Paizo doesn't want first ap for the 2nd edition to be "unusual"?

There's one more unannounced AP that comes after Return and before 2ed and will use 1e rules.

Given it will be the "sound off the old edition" AP I expect ... shenanigans.

Dark Archive

I hope it will be that Dominions of the Black ap I've been hoping for, but I honestly wouldn't mind "Stop Rovagug from escaping" the ap.

I'd be really surprised if it was Aroden themed ap though xD Would be kind of end of era if 1st edition ended with finally dealing with what the heck happened to Aroden and what it means


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Steve Geddes wrote:
For my money, the “big project” this year will be a Sandpoint or Varisia boxed set, hardcover or something to coincide with the launch of Return of the Runelords.

Well I was kind of right about this coming out.

But hideously wrong about it being "the big thing". :)


Jacobs said on his thread that the playtest adventure is about the Dominion calendar, so the AP won't be.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Xenocrat wrote:
Jacobs said on his thread that the playtest adventure is about the Dominion calendar, so the AP won't be.

And as I've said elsewhere, the fact that Doomsday Dawn is about one specific Dominion/Night Herald plot doesn't mean we won't be doing additional Dominion/Night Herald plots later on.


Now I wonder whether possible HC's of Second Darkness or Legacy of Fire (and especially first need revamp because it really have a potential in my opinion) - would be in Second Edition of the game.

Dark Archive

So is it possible to get Second Darkness(and Legacy of Fire too) for 2e as hardcover version?

I really really REAAAAAAAAAAALLY want to run Second Darkness before Shattered Star and ESPICIALLY before Return of the Runelords so I know what my players did in it and which npcs survived, but I don't want to convert 3.5 version on my own since elves are so out of character in it plus the other problems :'D

Shadow Lodge

CorvusMask wrote:

So is it possible to get Second Darkness(and Legacy of Fire too) for 2e as hardcover version?

I really really REAAAAAAAAAAALLY want to run Second Darkness before Shattered Star and ESPICIALLY before Return of the Runelords so I know what my players did in it and which npcs survived, but I don't want to convert 3.5 version on my own since elves are so out of character in it plus the other problems :'D

Color me a bit baffled as to how the elves can be out of character in the AP that established their character.

As for the question posed in the thread, the answer is now, obviously, Rise of the Runelords. Again.

Dark Archive

Well, apparently Second Darkness establishes that elves don't sleep so they don't have beds. Which isn't canon in Pathfinder as far as I know, they are just immune to magical sleep <_<


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Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
CorvusMask wrote:
Well, apparently Second Darkness establishes that elves don't sleep so they don't have beds.

That's not true, actually. There are beds in the maps of buildings in Kyonin in the AP. There were complaints at the time that there shouldn't be beds pictured because "elves don't sleep" in 3.5. But Elves of Golarion, itself a 3.5 book, specified that elves had beds to 'trance'/meditate in comfort.


zimmerwald1915 wrote:


Color me a bit baffled as to how the elves can be out of character in the AP that established their character.

Because, sadly, the character that the AP established (or, more accurately, reinforced) is wrong. They're not supposed to be anywhere near as offensive as they come across in the AP (partially because, I suspect, you only see the offenders in the AP, not the 90% of the race that is supposed to be nicer).


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Urath DM wrote:


Because, sadly, the character that the AP established (or, more accurately, reinforced) is wrong. They're not supposed to be anywhere near as offensive as they come across in the AP (partially because, I suspect, you only see the offenders in the AP, not the 90% of the race that is supposed to be nicer).

I still don't quite understand how people can find those elves in general offensive unless the GM fails fairly spectacularly on communicating "the nice ones want your help and appreciate it, there are a handful of political extremists who don't and one of those turns out to be the villain." Particularly when you've got Shalelu and Kwava to make the first impression, and when the ones who try to assassinate them in Kyonin directly identify themselves as a splinter group by shouting “Death to all who would doubt the Winter Council!”

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