My roommate and I have talked about the oozemorph, and we're kind of wondering what an oozemorph melee combatant looks like over the course of an adventuring career. Because extra primary attacks and flexible damage types don't seem to measure up against the damage increases, DR mitigation, and feat availability that come with shifter claws. Unless morphic weaponry is still supposed to retain some of that and we've misinterpreted the text.
Could an oozemorph drink a potion by itself when it is fluidic, or would it need to be administered by an ally? How about gear, can they pull along their own backpack?
The gear meld thing is pretty nice, I've got a one-shot coming up tomorrow and I was wondering if armour was even worth getting, but it seems like I'm in luck.
An oozemorph in fluidic form couldn't hold the potion to administer it (since it can't hold items). But there's nothing saying you can't pour it on the ooze. That's another GM-specific question, mostly can something without a mouth drink a potion? I'm sure that's come up in PFS. I mean, oozes (even just as monsters) can drown, so there's some weird spaces for consideration there.
They can't pull a backpack either, because the "cant hold anything" caveat. That also means they can't open doors, flip lever, or anything that requires hands.
They absolutely could have an oil slathered all over them, though.
I'll leave you with the image of Valeros trying to spread petroleum jelly over a pool of jello.
Thanks again for your reply, I figured he wouldn't be able to do those things, but I wanted to make sure anyway. We're going to be playing at level 3, so I'm sure I'll be a blob for most of the session and it's good to know what that'll mean for me. It should be a blast playing ooze charades with the rest of the party, not to mention the npc reactions to a blob traveling with a party of adventurers.
Ooh one last question, the clinging ooze ability that's gained at level 4, replaces woodland stride that's normally gained at level 3 for the base shifter, was it intended for that to be a level later, or did the shifter you had access too during writing have it at a different level? The way it is now the oozemorph has a completely empty level at 3, which is a bit of a bummer.
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They can't pull a backpack either, because the "cant hold anything" caveat. That also means they can't open doors, flip lever, or anything that requires hands.
There are plenty of things that don't require hands/holding. For example, a horse pull a wagon, a bird could flip a switch with a beak, a pig can push open a door [not work a round knob though maybe hit a lever type], ect. it all depends on how fine the manipulation needed is. For me, 'can't hold' doesn't equate to 'can't flip switch'. At worst a Oozemorph could 'attack' the switch with morphic weapons dealing nonlethal damage. The impact doesn't inflict damage to an object but has force.
This leads me to this:
It's worth noting that a lot of these questions fall to the distinction between rules as written and rules as intended. Climb might say you need "both hands free" but there's a laundry-list of monsters without hands that climb, including oozes (giant amoebas for one).
And
So that basically answers the rest of the questions too. Can it climb a ladder? No, because it has no way to climb until it gets a climb speed at 4th level.
A creature with a climb speed has a +8 racial bonus on all Climb checks. The creature must make a Climb check to climb any wall or slope with a DC higher than 0, but it can always choose to take 10, even if rushed or threatened while climbing.
Climb speed doesn't give you the ability to climb; you continue to make/use climb checks just with a +8. It allows you to move the listed speed, instead of 1/4 land speed, but doesn't turn a creature that can't climb into one that can.
As such, the blob should be able to climb a ladder at 1st. If it's impossible, climb speed doesn't do much.
PS: I want to say up front, I'm not trying to argue with you Robert. I REALLY appreciate you coming in to give your perspective. These are just the point I'd make if your perspective turn out to be RAW. Might as well get them on the RADAR from the beginning.
My roommate and I have talked about the oozemorph, and we're kind of wondering what an oozemorph melee combatant looks like over the course of an adventuring career. Because extra primary attacks and flexible damage types don't seem to measure up against the damage increases, DR mitigation, and feat availability that come with shifter claws. Unless morphic weaponry is still supposed to retain some of that and we've misinterpreted the text.
Hmmm... I hadn't even gotten to this because I've been trying to get the basic blob abilities figured out. As written, it replaced shifter claws not modified, so it doesn't get anything from claws. Robert is the only one that can say if that's what he intended though.
I'm not sure I follow that question. Could you reword?
So oozes (in your estimation) when they have magic items they can use it's considered a property of being 'fully ooze' rather than a fringe benefit, Robert?
Some oozes out there can benefit from having magic items in their goop. Is that too much of a niche for our 'average oozenaut'?
Also, did I miss the answer about whether they do damage like an ooze (ie, acid) somewhere up the thread?
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As written, it replaced shifter claws not modified, so it doesn't get anything from claws. Robert is the only one that can say if that's what he intended though.
The oozemorph's natural attacks don't scale in damage and weren't intended to. Their natural attacks start at 1d6 and don't scale unless their size does (giant form and beast shape II, etc), which was intended to balance out their scaling DR.
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I'm not sure I follow that question. Could you reword?
So oozes (in your estimation) when they have magic items they can use it's considered a property of being 'fully ooze' rather than a fringe benefit, Robert?Some oozes out there can benefit from having magic items in their goop. Is that too much of a niche for our 'average oozenaut'?
Also, did I miss the answer about whether they do damage like an ooze (ie, acid) somewhere up the thread?
Ahh. Yeah, unlike monster oozes the oozemorph can't benefit from any item that requires it being held, worn, wielded, etc. So really ioun stones or ioun-like items.
Also they don't do any additional acid damage, just natural attacks that can change damage type (s/p/b) as the oozemorph desires. This includes having like three bite attacks if they want, or what not.
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Ahh. Yeah, unlike monster oozes the oozemorph can't benefit from any item that requires it being held, worn, wielded, etc. So really ioun stones or ioun-like items.
Looks like Inscribe Magical Tattoo is going to be important then. They aren't "held, worn, wielded, etc."
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As written, it replaced shifter claws not modified, so it doesn't get anything from claws. Robert is the only one that can say if that's what he intended though.The oozemorph's natural attacks don't scale in damage and weren't intended to. Their natural attacks start at 1d6 and don't scale unless their size does (giant form and beast shape II, etc), which was intended to balance out their scaling DR.
What if I combine the Natural Attacks into one big oozy fist?
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There are plenty of things that don't require hands/holding. For example, a horse pull a wagon, a bird could flip a switch with a beak, a pig can push open a door [not work a round knob though maybe hit a lever type], ect. it all depends on how fine the manipulation needed is. For me, 'can't hold' doesn't equate to 'can't flip switch'. At worst a Oozemorph could 'attack' the switch with morphic weapons dealing nonlethal damage. The impact doesn't inflict damage to an object but has force.
I could see a case being made for letting the oozemorph push stuff around and do things like open doors if their natural weapons would permit that kind of manipulation. But since they can't wear equipment they can't pull a cart, since they can't wear the bit/bridle/harness ;)
As such, the blob should be able to climb a ladder at 1st. If it's impossible, climb speed doesn't do much.
The intention is that they can't climb at all until 4th when they get the climb speed.
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Ahh. Yeah, unlike monster oozes the oozemorph can't benefit from any item that requires it being held, worn, wielded, etc. So really ioun stones or ioun-like items.Looks like Inscribe Magical Tattoo is going to be important then. They aren't "held, worn, wielded, etc."
Magical tattoos seem like a great idea. Eldritch glyphs floating in protoplasmic masses, glowing veins throbbing inside of the ooze, connected to the symbols.
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What if I combine the Natural Attacks into one big oozy fist?As written, it replaced shifter claws not modified, so it doesn't get anything from claws. Robert is the only one that can say if that's what he intended though.The oozemorph's natural attacks don't scale in damage and weren't intended to. Their natural attacks start at 1d6 and don't scale unless their size does (giant form and beast shape II, etc), which was intended to balance out their scaling DR.
That's one thing I wish I'd thought to include in the archetype: A way to sacrifice number of natural attacks for higher natural attack damage. Basically going from multiple limbs to one BIIIG LIMB. Kinda' Green Lantern big green fist style.
For GMs running at their home (sorry PFS folks) my house rule would be increase die size by one step for each natural attack you could have that you choose to sacrifice. So like, when you form your natural attacks if you only form 1 instead of 3 your damage die for that one attack goes up by two steps. Probably not optimal but it gets the idea across.
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What if I combine the Natural Attacks into one big oozy fist?As written, it replaced shifter claws not modified, so it doesn't get anything from claws. Robert is the only one that can say if that's what he intended though.The oozemorph's natural attacks don't scale in damage and weren't intended to. Their natural attacks start at 1d6 and don't scale unless their size does (giant form and beast shape II, etc), which was intended to balance out their scaling DR.That's one thing I wish I'd thought to include in the archetype: A way to sacrifice number of natural attacks for higher natural attack damage. Basically going from multiple limbs to one BIIIG LIMB. Kinda' Green Lantern big green fist style.
For GMs running at their home (sorry PFS folks) my house rule would be increase die size by one step for each natural attack you could have that you choose to sacrifice. So like, when you form your natural attacks if you only form 1 instead of 3 your damage die for that one attack goes up by two steps. Probably not optimal but it gets the idea across.
Well you could flavor it that way with the Vital Strike chain of feats too.
But since they can't wear equipment they can't pull a cart, since they can't wear the bit/bridle/harness ;)
I was thinking more of a cart with a bar type handle instead of a harness. If they can push things, a low set bar could be pushed against. It really depends on the surface tension of the blob: if they push too hard, will an object pass through them?
The intention is that they can't climb at all until 4th when they get the climb speed.
Oh, I understand the intent, I'm just unsure how intent and the rules intersect. From my perspective, climb speed doesn't grant the ability to climb: I think a specific callout would need to be added to the 4th level ability to make the intent match the rules.
Magical tattoos seem like a great idea. Eldritch glyphs floating in protoplasmic masses, glowing veins throbbing inside of the ooze, connected to the symbols.
Thanks! It's the only thing I could come up with for ooze items other than ioun stones. Though an Ioun wyrd familiar os another nifty way to 'carry' your magic items. :)
That's one thing I wish I'd thought to include in the archetype: A way to sacrifice number of natural attacks for higher natural attack damage. Basically going from multiple limbs to one BIIIG LIMB. Kinda' Green Lantern big green fist style.
I think the easiest thing for this is to allow Pummeling Style line to work with morphic weapons, describing it as that "one BIIIG LIMB".
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Oh, I understand the intent, I'm just unsure how intent and the rules intersect. From my perspective, climb speed doesn't grant the ability to climb: I think a specific callout would need to be added to the 4th level ability to make the intent match the rules.
Which would all of sudden create confusion for every other monster with a Climb Speed. Yes, that line about needing hands is in the Climb Skill, but absolutely no monster with a Climb Speed uses that rule, and there's a bunch of monsters with Climb Speeds and no hands.
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Oh, I understand the intent, I'm just unsure how intent and the rules intersect. From my perspective, climb speed doesn't grant the ability to climb: I think a specific callout would need to be added to the 4th level ability to make the intent match the rules.Which would all of sudden create confusion for every other monster with a Climb Speed. Yes, that line about needing hands is in the Climb Skill, but absolutely no monster with a Climb Speed uses that rule, and there's a bunch of monsters with Climb Speeds and no hands.
You misunderstand. I'm assuming that NO HANDS ARE NEEDED... That means that you can climb at 1st then since all climb speed does allow a +8 to climb and an increased speed. Both non-climb speed creatures and climb speed creatures require a climb check to climb. If you can't climb to start, climb speed does not grant you that ability: it would just give a bonus to a skill you can't use...
See either oozes can climb, meaning they can do so from 1st, or they can't: It's like giving a bonus to perform sing and being mute.
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I think the easiest thing for this is to allow Pummeling Style line to work with morphic weapons, describing it as that "one BIIIG LIMB".
If you take Feral Combat Training (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/feral-combat-training-combat/) you can apply pummeling style to natural attacks.
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Oh, I understand the intent, I'm just unsure how intent and the rules intersect. From my perspective, climb speed doesn't grant the ability to climb: I think a specific callout would need to be added to the 4th level ability to make the intent match the rules.Which would all of sudden create confusion for every other monster with a Climb Speed. Yes, that line about needing hands is in the Climb Skill, but absolutely no monster with a Climb Speed uses that rule, and there's a bunch of monsters with Climb Speeds and no hands.You misunderstand. I'm assuming that NO HANDS ARE NEEDED... That means that you can climb at 1st then since all climb speed does allow a +8 to climb and an increased speed. Both non-climb speed creatures and climb speed creatures require a climb check to climb. If you can't climb to start, climb speed does not grant you that ability: it would just give a bonus to a skill you can't use...
See either oozes can climb, meaning they can do so from 1st, or they can't: It's like giving a bonus to perform sing and being mute.
I thinks it’s because of the difference between walking up a sheer surface due to an ability vs the limb manipulation required in climbing a ladder.
I’m also trying to visualize how an ooze would climb a ladder. Partially absorb it and pull yourself up?
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I think the easiest thing for this is to allow Pummeling Style line to work with morphic weapons, describing it as that "one BIIIG LIMB".If you take Feral Combat Training (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/feral-combat-training-combat/) you can apply pummeling style to natural attacks.
*takes notes*
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What if I combine the Natural Attacks into one big oozy fist?As written, it replaced shifter claws not modified, so it doesn't get anything from claws. Robert is the only one that can say if that's what he intended though.The oozemorph's natural attacks don't scale in damage and weren't intended to. Their natural attacks start at 1d6 and don't scale unless their size does (giant form and beast shape II, etc), which was intended to balance out their scaling DR.That's one thing I wish I'd thought to include in the archetype: A way to sacrifice number of natural attacks for higher natural attack damage. Basically going from multiple limbs to one BIIIG LIMB. Kinda' Green Lantern big green fist style.
For GMs running at their home (sorry PFS folks) my house rule would be increase die size by one step for each natural attack you could have that you choose to sacrifice. So like, when you form your natural attacks if you only form 1 instead of 3 your damage die for that one attack goes up by two steps. Probably not optimal but it gets the idea across.
I can't help but think that you could emulate the same thing by just taking the Vital Strike line of feats.
I thinks it’s because of the difference between walking up a sheer surface due to an ability vs the limb manipulation required in climbing a ladder.
I’m also trying to visualize how an ooze would climb a ladder. Partially absorb it and pull yourself up?
I'm thinking the same way a snake or slug climbs up one. Neither one has limbs, yet they manage to climb. Again, it boils down to climb speed itself NOT granting the ability to climb. In fact, I think a ladder would be easier than a sheer wall to climb as it has more to wrap around, oozing up and around the side poles and getting support from each rung were the sheer wall requires moving your entire weight entirely with surface tension/friction.
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Ahh. Yeah, unlike monster oozes the oozemorph can't benefit from any item that requires it being held, worn, wielded, etc. So really ioun stones or ioun-like items.Looks like Inscribe Magical Tattoo is going to be important then. They aren't "held, worn, wielded, etc."
Awesome, I had forgotten about that option entirely!
There's also the Extra Item Slot feat that makes it possible for our hero Ooze to indeed wear a helmet. And pants.
How does that work, though?
Isn't Extra Item Slot for companions and creatures?
How does that work, though?
Isn't Extra Item Slot for companions and creatures?
Extra Item Slot "Prerequisites: Non-humanoid body shape." Since your base for is now a "Non-humanoid body shape", it seems like it should work.
Just because they have the slot, does it bypass the restrictions of their form?
Does the oozemorph ability say they have no slots or that they can't carry etc.
If it doesn't say they have no slots, then the feat shouldn't help
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I'm not really interested in playing a Huge plate of Jello (and you get DR, and immunity to flanking and precision damage).
I am. :V
So reading in this thread that the oozemorph isn't meant to be played as an ooze is a bit of a disappointment in that regard.
Still, I'm sure it'll work great for a reluctantly oozy character concept.
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I managed to get some playtime with the oozemorph and I've got to say that it really was a blast. We were playing at level 3 so I took 2 levels of oozemorph and one of unbreakable fighter while focusing on Dex and Con, using weapon finesse to make sure I'd hit and saving my humanoid shape with light armor for the dungeon we entered. Having 21 AC combined with DR4/Slashing really was amazing, I really felt like a blob which could just get punctured and slashed without any problem. In blob form, not being able to be flanked or crit actually came up and was a great help too, the much lower AC of it was a bit of a bummer.
Now for some of the downsides, being a blob of ooze is obviously difficult in roleplaying situations, for a one-shot it was fine, I could do some silly things, (and almost got blamed for the disappearance of the local pets) but I can imagine that in a longer campaign that starts at level 1, being an ooze could be quite troublesome especially the no talking part. We discussed that having some sort of second humanoid shape that falls apart under stress (i.e. combat, lifting stuff or somebody poking you with a needle to make you pop) would really help out, without removing the penalty.
Another thing is that you need to not have a GM that feels like it's him vs the party. As the DR can get pretty high, especially if you go bulky as I did going for things like stalwart at later levels, and some GM's might start having everything carry slashing weapons.
Finally not being able to deal with types of DR other than the basic damage types is a big bummer, we encountered an enemy with DR5/magic and that felt bad, I can only imagine DR10/magic. I carried a light crossbow myself to deal with flying enemies, might be useful to do that for different damage types too.
All with all, I really liked playing it and I would definitely play it again, albeit at a higher level where more of the ability's are available. I do sincerely hope we'll get some sort of errata or update from paizo though, as it feels a bit bare bones with all the empty levels.
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Ahh. Yeah, unlike monster oozes the oozemorph can't benefit from any item that requires it being held, worn, wielded, etc. So really ioun stones or ioun-like items.Looks like Inscribe Magical Tattoo is going to be important then. They aren't "held, worn, wielded, etc."Awesome, I had forgotten about that option entirely!
There's also the Extra Item Slot feat that makes it possible for our hero Ooze to indeed wear a helmet. And pants.
Why a helmet when you could wear a crown?
Just because they have the slot, does it bypass the restrictions of their form?
Does the oozemorph ability say they have no slots or that they can't carry etc.
If it doesn't say they have no slots, then the feat shouldn't help
If they had slots, then merged items would work.
Worth noting—and I don't see it in the final text—I'd intended for gear to meld with the oozemorph's form when in fluidic form (rather than floating helplessly on their oozy body or however that would look). The melded gear is still non-functional, however. That's definitely worth a FAQ click."When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form."
I can now say that the oozeshifter doesn't lose or gain anything that isn't expressly called out in the text. It loses item slots and the ability to hold/manipulate objects and wear equipment.
So it looks like taking the extra slot feat would allow those merged items to function.
Shame that the extra slot feat does not explicitly specify that you can take it more than once, since I if you could you would probably want to take it at least three times (for your belt, your amulet, and your headband.)
Well, I guess the choice is hard now.
Perhaps not stating it is what it was designed for?
...maybe that's what some of the 'dead space' could be used for if they ever decide to 'tweak it' for play?
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I think we may need a FAQ for polymorphing into an ooze. No rules were needed for this before because it used to be impossible to polymorph into an ooze, but now we have such a spell (as well as a Shifter archetype that introduces an oozy form as a character's natural form).
The archetype mentions the loss of item slots, but the Ooze Form spells do not. Nothing was done to give a creature in the shape of an ooze the ability to merge magic items into its form, as is done with nearly all other non-humanoid shaped forms that one can polymorph into.
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I think we may need a FAQ for polymorphing into an ooze. No rules were needed for this before because it used to be impossible to polymorph into an ooze, but now we have such a spell (as well as a Shifter archetype that introduces an oozy form as a character's natural form).
The archetype mentions the loss of item slots, but the Ooze Form spells do not. Nothing was done to give a creature in the shape of an ooze the ability to merge magic items into its form, as is done with nearly all other non-humanoid shaped forms that one can polymorph into.
It's a late game ability but Wildshaping into an Ooze has been around for awhile, and some of the form are tons of fun (like a Tyrant Jelly with the Rapid Grappler feat).
Link
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The Cave Ooze has the statement that its ooze form is treated as a magical beast (and thus absorbs its magic items), so that option alone is currently handled by the rules.
I think we may need a FAQ for polymorphing into an ooze. No rules were needed for this before because it used to be impossible to polymorph into an ooze, but now we have such a spell (as well as a Shifter archetype that introduces an oozy form as a character's natural form).
The archetype mentions the loss of item slots, but the Ooze Form spells do not. Nothing was done to give a creature in the shape of an ooze the ability to merge magic items into its form, as is done with nearly all other non-humanoid shaped forms that one can polymorph into.
It's a late game ability but Wildshaping into an Ooze has been around for awhile, and some of the form are tons of fun (like a Tyrant Jelly with the Rapid Grappler feat).
** spoiler omitted **
Link
10th-level is late game?
(Edit: I cans reading)
If you use Weapon Finesse to get dex to attack, but still use strength to damage, you can add 0.5 your level to damage for two attacks with shifter's claws.It's a crazily OP feat.
It's already been confirmed that it'll be FAQ'd to function as Lethal Grace here.
I believe you would need to be 12th level to get large ooze shape, and in PFS that at least is seeker play, which is considered late game.
PFS is one campaign with very special rules. I guess if that's what you're used to playing then yeah, 10th level is late game. I'm used to long homebrew campaigns and full published adventure paths, so it's firmly in mid-game territory for me.
(sorry for the threadjack)
10th-level is late game?
It can be. I often find games slow down/stop around 12th. In fact, I can't remember when the last time was that I got close to a classes end/cap ability.
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Yeah, my group's home games tend to wrap up somewhere in the level 10-14 area.
Haven't seen the archetype yet, but as a home GM I will probably implement the following house rule:
For GMs running at their home (sorry PFS folks) my house rule would be increase die size by one step for each natural attack you could have that you choose to sacrifice. So like, when you form your natural attacks if you only form 1 instead of 3 your damage die for that one attack goes up by two steps. Probably not optimal but it gets the idea across.
Yes, you can also get one big attack with feats but given that the oozemorph is supposed to have some flexibility with its weapons it seems like a nice feature to have baked-in, without further investment.
(I am also considering making it slightly easier for the oozemorph to use magic items and/or stay in humanoid form, but this can probably wait for a bit of playtesting.)
How does ooze form interact with psychic spellcasting? I think it's pretty clear that you can't cast psychic spells while in ooze form by RAW, but what about RAI?
How does ooze form interact with psychic spellcasting? I think it's pretty clear that you can't cast psychic spells while in ooze form by RAW, but what about RAI?
SLAs aren't allowed, and psychic casting has more components than those.
This is a class/archetype that really comes into its own around 4th level, where you get two non-blob forms a day and eight hours total usage of humanoid abilities.
What's more it is a polymorph effect identical to alter self, so any "clothing" or "equipment" will pass inspection as real by anyone looking for illusions or disguises. Add in if you take elf form you get low-light vision or dwarf form darkvision, etc. passing oneself off as just about anyone is part of the class.
Take some slayer levels after 4 oozemorph shifter levels and one heck of an infiltration assassin appears...