Playable undead, what are the odds?


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Grand Lodge

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What are the odds of them adding a playable undead race?

With Eox being one of the first to join the Pact Worlds, I would love to see a sentient undead playable race. Nothing crazy powerful, maybe like a somewhat evolved, sentient zombie type thing.


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Pretty sure there is going to be one in Alien Archive.


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I think you are in luck. From the description of the upcoming Pact Worlds Guide:

"New playable alien races, from undead Eoxians to Castrovellian plant-people."


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Oh sorry, I keep getting AA and PW mixed up >_<


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Being undead is not as overpowering an advantage as it was in Pathfinder. Everyone can breathe underwater or in space and be immune to environmental toxins right from level 1. Undead can just do it without a suit.


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Everyone also dies the same way due to Resolve points, so I'm interested in how they're going to balance the no Con thing and if they still use Cha in place of it.

If true Undead Solarions are going to be f@~&ing SCARY.


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I wonder if there are going to be any changes to Stamina Points. I mean, undead technically don't have any stamina to speak of...


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Stamina in Starfinder is the ability to shrug off hits before you actually start taking damage, not how much energy you have before you get tired.

So yes Undead PCs will have Stamina.


I don't know I'm kind of concerned since some rules have been simplified if they don't just throw the no con rule out the window. I would be sad unless they figured out some other way to make up for it.


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Vidmaster7 wrote:
I don't know I'm kind of concerned since some rules have been simplified if they don't just throw the no con rule out the window. I would be sad unless they figured out some other way to make up for it.

Yeah, all the Undead seen thus far have no Con score. It's kinda one of the things about being Undead.


So their keeping it then eh? good. So Here is a thought. Will undead still get 10 points to build. if so Will undead PC's just all be more charismatic then your average person. Since no con score to build into they have a few more points to spare. Like you said solarions will be ideal for undead.


Walks onto ships bridge "hey guys, have you seen my left ear? I fairly certain I had it before dinner last night".


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Lane_S wrote:

Walks onto ships bridge "hey guys, have you seen my left ear? I fairly certain I had it before dinner last night".

"Hey guys, have you seen my left ear? I'm fairly certain I had it in the fridge, ready to go for dinner tonight."

Not sure which is scarier, having a ghoul's lunch leftovers next to my tuna casserole, or the possibility of a living crew member appropriating a body part for God knows what.


Wakes up in unfamiliar place with a party member stitching his arm back on. "what the hell?" "sorry, we needed a weapon."

Grand Lodge

Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
Yeah, all the Undead seen thus far have no Con score. It's kinda one of the things about being Undead.

All of the undead we have seen so far are monsters...I don't imagine they would make a playable race that drastically changes the mechanics of how PCs are built.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Vidmaster7 wrote:
So their keeping it then eh? good. So Here is a thought. Will undead still get 10 points to build. if so Will undead PC's just all be more charismatic then your average person. Since no con score to build into they have a few more points to spare. Like you said solarions will be ideal for undead.

yeah, they aren't going to do that.

Eoxian undead as PCs will probably have no constitution, some special rules about that, and maybe +2 to wisdom. they'll have darkvision and a couple other benefits, but they aren't going to get a spare 10 points to spread around.


Slyme wrote:
Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
Yeah, all the Undead seen thus far have no Con score. It's kinda one of the things about being Undead.
All of the undead we have seen so far are monsters...I don't imagine they would make a playable race that drastically changes the mechanics of how PCs are built.

If you have a Con score you're alive. Half-Undead can have Con scores cause they're still alive.

Undead do not have a Constitution score.


Yakman wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
So their keeping it then eh? good. So Here is a thought. Will undead still get 10 points to build. if so Will undead PC's just all be more charismatic then your average person. Since no con score to build into they have a few more points to spare. Like you said solarions will be ideal for undead.

yeah, they aren't going to do that.

Eoxian undead as PCs will probably have no constitution, some special rules about that, and maybe +2 to wisdom. they'll have darkvision and a couple other benefits, but they aren't going to get a spare 10 points to spread around.

They might.


Yakman wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
So their keeping it then eh? good. So Here is a thought. Will undead still get 10 points to build. if so Will undead PC's just all be more charismatic then your average person. Since no con score to build into they have a few more points to spare. Like you said solarions will be ideal for undead.

yeah, they aren't going to do that.

Eoxian undead as PCs will probably have no constitution, some special rules about that, and maybe +2 to wisdom. they'll have darkvision and a couple other benefits, but they aren't going to get a spare 10 points to spread around.

I'm not sure where you're getting 10 spare points to spread around? I'm pretty sure all Vidmaster was referring to is not needing to put any of your 10 points in Con since it doesn't exist?


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Shinigami02 wrote:
Yakman wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
So their keeping it then eh? good. So Here is a thought. Will undead still get 10 points to build. if so Will undead PC's just all be more charismatic then your average person. Since no con score to build into they have a few more points to spare. Like you said solarions will be ideal for undead.

yeah, they aren't going to do that.

Eoxian undead as PCs will probably have no constitution, some special rules about that, and maybe +2 to wisdom. they'll have darkvision and a couple other benefits, but they aren't going to get a spare 10 points to spread around.

I'm not sure where you're getting 10 spare points to spread around? I'm pretty sure all Vidmaster was referring to is not needing to put any of your 10 points in Con since it doesn't exist?

maybe. that's not how i read it, but maybe you are correct.


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PCs get 10 pts to build with.

Vid didn't say anything about an "extra" 10 pts, they were talking about the PC 10.


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If Undead PCs are going to be Constitution-less, I wonder how those characters will function if they pick the Bounty Hunter Theme, Spacefarer Theme, or any other future theme that gives a bonus to Constitution.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Given you don't get points back for lowering an ability, I don't see how being undead would change that. You would still get the benefit of only having to split your points between five scores, though. This would have to be balanced out somehow.


I'm of the opinion Eoxian undead are going to get the same treatment as Androids. They'll get a Semi-Dead trait or similar that classes them as undead/humanoid depending on whichever is less useful and some other stuff. Cutting con simply treads on too many internal systems for it to be satisfactorily balanced imo.


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They will be n/a +1 Con. So, n/a.

Ventnor wrote:
If Undead PCs are going to be Constitution-less, I wonder how those characters will function if they pick the Bounty Hunter Theme, Spacefarer Theme, or any other future theme that gives a bonus to Constitution.


Slyme wrote:
What are the odds of them adding a playable undead race?

I'd say, roughly, 1.

:D


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I've always felt that undead should keep constitution. Sure, they're immune to disease and stuff, but their body is still made of bones and maybe meat. Call it 'construction' if you like. It's how solidly they are put together. Same for constructs. Even more reason to call it 'construction'.

Dark Archive

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Umbral Reaver wrote:
I've always felt that undead should keep constitution. Sure, they're immune to disease and stuff, but their body is still made of bones and maybe meat. Call it 'construction' if you like. It's how solidly they are put together. Same for constructs. Even more reason to call it 'construction'.

Ditto, for both undead and constructs.

My car can be 'poisoned' (pour some sugar in the gas tank if you want proof). It has critical places that are vital to it's function, and places that are just 'hit point damage.' Undead, constructs, whatever, the Con score works fine *mechanically* for those things, even if the word 'constitution' *can* suggest life (and, just as easily, it *can* suggest the composition of something, the structure, that of which it is 'constituted,' so it certainly doesn't *have* to be limited to living things).

Making Con a nonability, and then turning around and granting the benefits of Con to Charisma anyway (or just bonus hit points based on size, for constructs) seems like exception-based design at it's clunkiest, and over semantics (BAD semantics at that!), not mechanics.

It's just ugly and unnecessary (and bloats wordcount), and even worse, it requires sub-rules (like Cha as Con for undead) to just add it all back in anyway, which is extra foolishness and a cherry on top of the sundae of foolishness.

And now I want a sundae. A real one, not a metaphorical one. Will the wrongness never end? :)


There is nothing wrong with a sundae (unless your health point says you shouldn't have one)!

(I totes disagree with the lack of Connbeing a bad thing for undead, but I also feel it should apply to outsiders, so... XD That said: I'm all for critical/precision hits!)

(Similarly, though I agree in principle that machines can be "poisoned" I don't think an iron statue or clay monster or pile of masks or collection of compressed time have that problem - anything that might "poison" such things would instead look more like gross damage to us. We're it me, though, there would be a machine subtype - because there are clearly subtypes of constructs - that has vulnerability to "gunk" (like poison, but for machines) or something, to clarify the difference. Or maybe an optional vulnerability in constructs akin to that. But that's just me!)

(Also, plants have too many dang immunities, many of which don't make any sense.)


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Playable undead may just be humanoids with the undead subtype like Androids.

I could see a racial ability like the Android "constructed" just called "living dead" with features based on that.

A no con score could work, but it sort of throws a wrench into several player level up rules. Depending on how it is balanced, either the undead with no con score would 1) have to shift con bonuses to another stat (something that seems taboo in this system), 2) have no bonuses at all meaning a permanent -1 stamina/hp per level and no fortitude save bonuses (which frankly sucks).

Also 1st level would require something special for assigning attributes. Since you generally pick race and theme first *then* assign points. So an undead without con would be like assign your bonuses, then remove your constitution score. So what happens if you pick the Bounty Hunter theme for example?

I dunno, playing without a con score would seem like it could be more trouble than it is worth. Adding some racial effect that mimics undead qualities would still keep an ease to the leveling book keeping.

I'm more interested in "Castrovellian plant-people". My desire to team a ysoki bombard soldier and a plant person brawler is coming closer to being a thing!


Simply eliminating the Con score would be unbalancing.

As already stated it affects assigning stats. If you still get 10 points to assign it allows for higher stats in the remaining five.

Level based stat gains are also affected. You can now upgrade 4/5 stats.


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I guess we will find out how they balance things when Alien Archive comes out. If undead PCs lack Con, they will need to say what to do with themes that grant Con bonuses and whether and by how much to reduce the initial point allocation as well as the bonuses granted at later levels. (Would they still get bonuses to 4 of their remaining 5 ability scores? That may be more of a concern than the initial 10 points.)


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Would limiting them to 8 point buy be balanced, in lieu of having a Constitution score?


That or maybe they'll have a lot of penalties to their Strength and Dexterity?

*shrugs*


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That's an idea! Make them a +2/-2/-2 race instead of a +2/+2/-2 race, and the whole point buy issue sorts itself out.


Doesn't sort out the level up thing though. Or breaking stat niches (charisma suddenly is +skills, +fort, maybe +class stuff, and +stamina as opposed to just 1 and 3).

I maintain it's a terrible idea for a game that the devs have put a lot of effort into ensuring PC numbers hover in a fairly specific range.


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If stamina keys off charisma for the undead race, getting a 7 point buy ought to make it balanced. 5 or 6 maybe if they get a bonus to charisma (but that'd be overpowered, so they shouldn't.)


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Tarik Blackhands wrote:

Doesn't sort out the level up thing though. Or breaking stat niches (charisma suddenly is +skills, +fort, maybe +class stuff, and +stamina as opposed to just 1 and 3).

I maintain it's a terrible idea for a game that the devs have put a lot of effort into ensuring PC numbers hover in a fairly specific range.

A fair point, the 4 score increases every five levels go a lot further when you only have 5 scores to worry about.

Still, the fact that they set it up for diminishing returns, means the gap between undead and living, would remain relatively small.


Maybe undead races should get only three boosts every 5 levels?


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Nah, I think the easiest way is to just balance it out with more race-based negative properties. Maybe increase the resolve cost for not-dying.


Jürgen Hubert wrote:
I wonder if there are going to be any changes to Stamina Points. I mean, undead technically don't have any stamina to speak of...

"The power of the stars sustains me!"


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Just get rid of their Con score and start all the others at 8 instead of 10. That balances out.

Liberty's Edge

Qualidar wrote:
Just get rid of their Con score and start all the others at 8 instead of 10. That balances out.

It does not, that screws them over completely on a number of levels. They'd have 8s in most ability scores even after ability points are added, which wouldn't be remotely fair.

My thought is that they might have, as racial ability mods, +2 Int, -2 Cha. That would make some sense and make it hard to take too broken an advantage of them using Cha for so many things.

Though, really, I'm not sure even that is necessary as long as they don't get a Cha bonus (which they won't, I'd expect an Int bonus and possibly no other bonuses or penalties unless they go with a Cha penalty as I noted above). Beyond boosting Envoys and Solarians, it just doesn't matter all that much, Con and Cha are probably the weakest stats in the game, combining them still only results in a stat that's on par with Dex and Int.


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Would it balance out if they had no racial adjustments to their ability scores at all? Just 10 points (+1 theme) to add to their five stats.

Liberty's Edge

Ravingdork wrote:
Would it balance out if they had no racial adjustments to their ability scores at all? Just 10 points (+1 theme) to add to their five stats.

That or one +2 and one -2 seem the most likely and appropriate ways to go.


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Umbral Reaver wrote:
I've always felt that undead should keep constitution. Sure, they're immune to disease and stuff, but their body is still made of bones and maybe meat. Call it 'construction' if you like. It's how solidly they are put together. Same for constructs. Even more reason to call it 'construction'.

I believe the rationale is that they are unnaturally held together proportionately more with Negative Energy than living things with Positive Energy. That's why they don't just rot and why fleshless skeletons actually work.

That said, I'm guessing they'll either just make them humanoids with some resistances or handwave away the 'no Constitution' thing with "asymmetrical design" regardless of whether it makes sense or not.


^^This^^ is what I'm worried about. I dislike it as an idea, and I'm not super happy about it, but I understand why they're doing so. I'm just hoping this is one case where asymmetrical design isn't maintained.


Depending on the other stuff I was going to say -2 Ch an no stat bonuses.
MDC


Bloodrealm wrote:
Umbral Reaver wrote:
I've always felt that undead should keep constitution. Sure, they're immune to disease and stuff, but their body is still made of bones and maybe meat. Call it 'construction' if you like. It's how solidly they are put together. Same for constructs. Even more reason to call it 'construction'.

I believe the rationale is that they are unnaturally held together proportionately more with Negative Energy than living things with Positive Energy. That's why they don't just rot and why fleshless skeletons actually work.

That said, I'm guessing they'll either just make them humanoids with some resistances or handwave away the 'no Constitution' thing with "asymmetrical design" regardless of whether it makes sense or not.

Then they are 'constructed' by some quality of negative energy, representing how well it holds them together.

Dark Archive

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Tacticslion wrote:
(Also, plants have too many dang immunities, many of which don't make any sense.)

Yes to that. Immune to polymorph? Why??? What on earth was the rationale for plants to be immune to magical attempts to change their form? It's like 'rocks are immune to divination, for no darn reason at all' logic.

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