Rogue - starting noob questions :)


Advice

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Shadow Lodge

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NaeNae wrote:
Crazy Tlabbar wrote:

Ooooo! What Skill Focus are you taking?

(hint:Bluff)
Tho if you feel strongly about it, or have a plan, there's also Acrobatics, Perception or Stealth.

I was thinking of Bluff actually, because it's the easiest way to guarantee a sneak attack. Although Acrobatics do have a lot of checks that might help me in combat.

But I am curious how skill focus works. It says that if i have more than 10 in a skill, it raises to +6. But does it mean that I have to put 7 points in a skill and it will be 13, because the +3 will trigger the raise, or will I need to push it to 10 to get the buff?

Skill bonus = [# ranks] + [charisma] + [class skill bonus] + [competence bonus] + [luck bonus] + ... etc.

Sooooooo

When you have 1 rank, 4 ranks, 9 ranks... then Skill Focus gives you a bonus of +3. So for level 2 (assuming you keep Bluff ranks maxed)...
Bluff = 2ranks + 2charisma + 3classSkill + 3skillFocus = +10
As soon as you put in that 10th rank, then the bonus from skill focus goes up to +6.
So at level 10 with max ranks...
Bluff = 10ranks + 2charisma + 3classSkill + 6skillFocus = +21


Azurespark wrote:
I think I'm more of the type who jumps straight into the deep end. My first character was a sorcerer, then a month later I made an alchemist, who I played up to 15th lv. Sure not every choice I made was great, but I learned a lot in doing so.

Hah! My first 3rd edition was a half-elf paladin who was seeking to replace his mount with a homunculus familiar; I worked with the GM, didn't get a homunculus but got other neat stuff, and... never played him. He was influenced by house-ruled 2E, though, so...

My second (and technically third) were also half-elf paladins (with a different GM), though I only played them both in a one-off module (the third was the brother of the second, as established by my GM and myself before the game; he was statted out differently than the second, who had become a dwarf, for reasons, and was no longer playable - that transition and replacement was part of the denoument of that game).

My fourth character was a gestalt bard-wizard gnome. This became typical of character builds unless I was playing a game. XD

My first PF character was a complicated mashup of various obscure 3.X rules and PF, so... it's hard to remember what my first "real" PF character, was. :D

EDIT: clarification!


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Alarian Sunlance wrote:
I agree with them about Mobility. Mobility is a useless feat for a rogue, especially a Dexterity based one

Spring Attack is great if you are a Str rogue, like maybe a half-orc weilding a big nasty falchion and using the Scout archetype. In fact that combo is pretty good.


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Rhedyn wrote:
NaeNae wrote:
I'm playing the Core Rogue. GM didn't want to kearn the changes for Unchained.

Walk into melee combat.

Die

reroll character as anything else. Try bard.

This is really bad advice and counter to everything we're trying to do here and counter to what the Op has very nicely requested.


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Okay! So to sum it up for now!

From feats and talents...

1. Weapon Finesse
2. Fast Stealth
3. Combat Expertise
4. Bomber
5. Improved Feint
6. Minor Magic
7. Greater Feint
8. Gloom Magic
9. Iron will
10. Bomber's Discovery

Works? I will add +1 to Dex on lvls 4 and 8? Or something else? Maybe +1 to Str on lvl 4 to get that +1 on Fortitude saves? The more I know, the stupider my build is :D

PS.

Don't think we are done just yet. I already have a second character I want help with, and from my current searches there seems to be equal love for her as for a Core Rogue. A Treesinger Druid :D


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Constitution boosts your fort save, not strength.

And I would suggest making a new topic for the next character.


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Awwww... Con not Str ;-; Silly me... So just Dex then I guess. And yes, I will make a new one to keep things clean.

I just like rolling on the background generator and making up stories with my results. And I liked one enough to morph it into a character.


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NaeNae wrote:
As for character concept, yes... I don't have to be optimal in combat. In fact it would fit Elana's personality not to be.

Side note: With this comment, you have probably caused several dozen posters' heads to explode. Well done! Keep the focus on fun.


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Calybos1 wrote:
NaeNae wrote:
As for character concept, yes... I don't have to be optimal in combat. In fact it would fit Elana's personality not to be.
Side note: With this comment, you have probably caused several dozen posters' heads to explode. Well done! Keep the focus on fun.

Well I don't believe in creating characters based on math. Yes it's a factor, but one of many I consider. It's the same when I play Cities Skylines. I can make an intersection the smallest I can and the most efficient, but usually I will go for looks over anything else. Same rules apply here. And knowing my GM, we will focus a lot on the story side of gameplay.

On a side note, what's the idea of Touch AC? When is it used? It seems awfully low compared to other defences.


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NaeNae wrote:
On a side note, what's the idea of Touch AC? When is it used? It seems awfully low compared to other defences.

Some abilities and spells, such as an alchemist's bombs, or the shocking grasp spell, only need to touch the target to damage them, instead of piercing their armor. So these target a creature's touch AC, which is equal to 10 + dex mod + size mod + dodge bonus + deflection bonus. And monks can also add their wis mod to their touch AC.


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Touch AC does not include armor, or natural armor bonus, so it is lower on a lot of targets, which is why they keep suggesting things that target touch.


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If you stick with rogue, dealing damage like a warrior is *really* unreliable at low levels unless the planets align and you get sneak attack every time.

As you gain more levels, more options and wealth to buy things to augment yourself will come, you just have to not expect to keep up with the warriors, their job is front line, tanky, damage dealers. Rogues job is sneaky opportunism.

It helps TREMENDOUSLY to have a party that acts like the party is fighting and not just each player. There are MANY things the other players can do to forcing those opportunities for YOU to do the one-shot big damage, you just have to discuss tactics, spells, and using party synergy to manipulate those instances.

ALSO - talk over the opposite, ways that YOU can manipulate circumstances to give others the one time high damage blow to the BBEG.

I love playing Rogues, I like doing sneaky s#+$. I have never played an Unchained Rogue and all of the Rogues I've played have survived just fine and made great (and hilariously disastrous) party contributions while being fun to play.


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Okay, I've been reading through Unchained Rogue a bit and came up with a few more questions.

As I understand it, U-Rogue gets a free Weapon Finesse on level 1. Does it mean that a Rogue starts with two feats?

I assume that Trap Sense has been replaced with Danger Sense?

And could someone explain Rogue's Edge to me?


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
NaeNae wrote:
As I understand it, U-Rogue gets a free Weapon Finesse on level 1. Does it mean that a Rogue starts with two feats?

Yes, Weapon Finesse is a bonus feat so that's in addition to your regular feat at 1st level. An Unchained Rogue has two (or possibly more, if you have other bonus feats) feats at first level.

Also note that the rules for his sneak attack are slightly different from that of the original rogue, and he gets the effect of the shadow strike feat for free.

NaeNae wrote:
I assume that Trap Sense has been replaced with Danger Sense?

Correct. The bonus applies to more things now.

NaeNae wrote:
And could someone explain Rogue's Edge to me?

Think of it like a bonus feat, except that feat improves based on how many skill ranks you have. When you first get a skill unlock you can only have 5 skill ranks, so you only get the first benefit. Once you have 10 skill ranks, you automatically get the second benefit, and when you reach 15 skill ranks you automatically get the third.


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Dasrak wrote:
Also note that the rules for his sneak attack are slightly different from that of the original rogue, and he gets the effect of the shadow strike feat for free.

Can you explain how her sneak attack is different? It seems the same, either no Dex bonus or flanked.


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Normal rogue shuts off sneak attack if the target has concealment aka dim light for 20% miss chance.

Unchained rogue shuts off sneak attack if the target has TOTAL concealment aka, no light for 50% miss chance.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Rogue Sneak Attack wrote:
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.
Unchained Rogue Sneak Attack wrote:
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with total concealment.

That one word is easy to miss, but it makes a big difference. As I mentioned, it's the equivalent of getting the Shadow Strike feat for free.

Liberty's Edge

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NaeNae wrote:

Okay, I've been reading through Unchained Rogue a bit and came up with a few more questions.

As I understand it, U-Rogue gets a free Weapon Finesse on level 1. Does it mean that a Rogue starts with two feats?

I assume that Trap Sense has been replaced with Danger Sense?

And could someone explain Rogue's Edge to me?

Yep, or 3 feats if you are human! Lots of classes grant bonus feats as part of their features at various levels. Monks get like 3 at level 1!

Yes, danger sense is an upgrade to trap sense.

If you look here for example:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/stealth/

and scroll down, you can see the benefits you get at 5, 10, and 15 ranks in stealth.
E.g. if at 5th level you have 5 ranks in stealth and choose stealth as your rogue's edge, you get
5 Ranks: Reduce the Stealth penalty from sniping by 10.
if at 10th level you chose acrobatics you'd get both the 5 and 10 abilities, and the 10th level ability from stealth. Hope that helps.


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Oh, so that's like... Specialisations in certain skills? Sounds nice.

I'm asking about the U-Rogue, because I'm romancing with a character concept of sorts. But first things first... Determining attribute scores. If you use point buy, you are limited to 7 lowest and 18 highest. But if you use dices, any but the 6+2d6 version, you can end up with say... 5 in one score. How do you even play such a character? I just checked what it means in terms of carry weight if it was ment to be put in strength. It's 16 lbs. So a leather armor and a dagger. It's just silly... Are there any rules about such cases, or you just play with it?


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
NaeNae wrote:
How do you even play such a character?

It leaves you with a crippling weakness. If it's dexterity or constitution the character is indeed unplayable. If it's wisdom then you have a crippling weakness to your will save, but some classes (Paladin) can get away with that. Strength is the next most problematic since carrying capacity can restrict your gear, but that can be worked around for some classes that have particularly lightweight gear. Intelligence and Charisma, though, you can get by with very meager scores. For an Unchained Rogue, 5 strength is bordering on unplayable. The equipment restriction is going to be nasty, and until 3rd level you basically can't fight.

Normally with rolled stats you shouldn't go in with a preset plan and should instead be flexible based on what the dice give you. If you'd rather have consistency to do what you want, point buy is the better system.

Liberty's Edge

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There are rules for re-rolling if your stats are across the board too low. Wait, strike that that seems to be only in 3.5 and not included as part of the pathfinder. Point buy is the more common approach for that reason though. The old 3.5 rule was usually if all of your modifiers summed to 0 you could/should reroll.

A few rare classes do get, for example, dex to damage at level so if you can get your hands on mage armor you can play with a 5 strength. I've also played casters like that.


Dasrak wrote:
Normally with rolled stats you shouldn't go in with a preset plan and should instead be flexible based on what the dice give you. If you'd rather have consistency to do what you want, point buy is the better system.

But point buy is so... Boring. There is no variation, no chellange. Everyone will look the same, just the places where they apply their 18s and 8s varies. But on the other hand... Perhaps I should roll 6+26 to kill some randomness... I will see.

I was romancing with a fey elf rogue. A thief specialised in stealing from magically locked vaults and the like. I picked all Fey alternative racial traits. Then wanted her to focus on Disable Device, Stealth and Use Magic Device. I would pick Minor and Major Magic and use the elven racial bonus to rogues to boost those a little.

Point Buy seems too much like min/maxing to me... I don't like that.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Point buy gives consistency, guaranteeing you can always do things according to a standardized formula. Dice rolls give you unpredictable and unusual stat variations that no one would choose according to the point buy formula. They have their pros and cons depending on the game experience you're looking for. If you have a specific concept you want to build, the consistency of point buy is vastly preferable. If you want to adapt to unexpected constraints, then dice rolling is preferable.

I'd also disagree that there is no variation or challenge. I can understand insofar in that once you have a build prepared you can carbon copy it (with minor variations, if you so choose) as many times as you like, but that doesn't mean that creating a build isn't an interesting challenge or that you cannot vary it.


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I think your GM will tell you which way the game uses to destribute abilizy scores. Point buy is the most favored option because it's fair. You will see variation for sure, it lets you customize what your character is good at - you can think of a background and then distribute your points as you see them fit. Dice on the other hand may lead to very unbalanced groups where on player steamrolls encounger because he got superior stats while another one wont even be able to play what he wanted to play because he doesnt have the attributes to do so.


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So say, a 20 point buy on an Elf U-Rogue that's ment to be a UMD/Stealth oriented char...

Str - 9
Dex - 15 (+2)
Con - 12 (-2)
Int - 14 (+2)
Wis - 12
Cha - 14

It's proper? I think I counted the numbers well.

That gives me...
Str - 9
Dex - 17
Con - 10
Int - 16
Wis - 12
Cha - 14

Minor and Major Magic pull from the Int modifier. I am not sure how will Gloom Magic play with the elven racial class bonus.

The idea is to use Minor and Major Magic for Detect Poison and Disguise Self. Then wands for offensive spells I belive. So that the elf retains the ability to change appearance even when without her gear. For story purposes mostly.

And a first level feat, I guess Skill Focus for Perception or perhaps Agile Manouvers.


str 10 -> 9 (+1 -> 21 pts)
dex 10 -> 11 (-1) -> 12 (-2) -> 13 (-3) -> 14 (-5) -> 15 (-7 -> 14 pts)
con 10 -> 11 (-1) -> 12 (-2 -> 12 pts)
int 10 -> 11 (-1) -> 12 (-2) -> 13 (-3) -> 14 (-5 -> 7 pts)
wis 10 -> 11 (-1) -> 12 (-2 -> 5 pts)
cha 10 -> 11 (-1) -> 12 (-2) -> 13 (-3) -> 14 (-5 -> 0 pts)

Looks like you did it right!

That said, you might want to swap your ideas for minor/major magic traits and wands - your rogue talents with your ability score will generally be better DCs (by 1 or 2) than similarly-spell-leveled wands.

Wands generally have the DCs assuming minimum scores.

So a Cantrip Wand will have DC 10 and a 1st level wand will have DC 11.

By comparison, your minor talent will have a DC 12 and major talent a DC 13. That's the equivalent difference of a feat (spell focus) applied to your SLAs.

Ultimately, of course, the decision is up to you - but if you're planning on going offensive, at all, you might want to focus on your minor and magic traits for offense with wands for other utility.

Hope that helps!


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Well... I wanted to let her assume a different face in times she did not have her wands with her. I know she is female and has... Means to hide a wand, but still... I will think on it ^.^

I'm glad I learned how the point buy works. Time for creative thinking!!!


Well, disguise self could be valid (due to the DC of the will save to pierce), but only if you're going to allow people to "interact" with your illusion... which, one supposes you might, so... up to you and your GM! Make sure to ask your GM! XD

Liberty's Edge

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NaeNae wrote:
Dasrak wrote:
Normally with rolled stats you shouldn't go in with a preset plan and should instead be flexible based on what the dice give you. If you'd rather have consistency to do what you want, point buy is the better system.

But point buy is so... Boring. There is no variation, no chellange. Everyone will look the same, just the places where they apply their 18s and 8s varies. But on the other hand... Perhaps I should roll 6+26 to kill some randomness... I will see.

I was romancing with a fey elf rogue. A thief specialised in stealing from magically locked vaults and the like. I picked all Fey alternative racial traits. Then wanted her to focus on Disable Device, Stealth and Use Magic Device. I would pick Minor and Major Magic and use the elven racial bonus to rogues to boost those a little.

Point Buy seems too much like min/maxing to me... I don't like that.

Its not quite the same, because people do their point buy differently. Sometimes if I want some randomness I roll dice but then adjust it to match point buy.

Agile maneuvers can be a handy feat for a dex character, even if you don't go on to take the improved feats. But you'll probably be better served by something else.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

You might want to talk to your GM about whether they want you to use point buy or rolling for stats, as that's usually something they determine (so that the whole party uses the same method for fairness).

Personally, I like rolling for stats. The method we use is: roll 4d6, drop the lowest number, and 1s can be re-rolled. We also roll 3 sets and pick one to use. Helps prevent that 5 Strength issue.


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I hope that you will not mind a few tips that I believe will be useful to low level characters NaeNae.

Dealing with Damage Reduction: Some creatures are resistant to physical damage, except that there is usually a way around this resistance to damage. For examples lycanthropes (such as werewolves) are difficult to hurt without alchemical silver weapons. DR usually starts at 5 and increases in increments of 5. Even DR 5 can be hard to handle for low strength characters, fortunately most low level DR enemies have weaknesses that aren't too hard to get around.

At low levels both alchemical silvered weapons and cold iron weapons are affordable. Alchemical silvered weapons cost +20 gold and cold iron weapons cost double the normal amount. You should be able to pick up one of each. You can also have cold iron and silvered arrows too.

Another low level DR factor is damage type, there are 3 types of physical damage in Pathfinder: piercing, slashing and bludgeoning. The short sword does piercing damage, which as a damage type bypasses less than the other 2 types. I would recommend getting a light bludgeoning and light slashing weapon to deal with DR. A alchemical silvered dagger and cold iron light mace would cover 4 types of DR.

DR magic is something that can come up and incorporeal creatures cannot be hurt by non magic weapons. An oil of magic weapon is good to have around to help with these situations. They cost 50 gold each, so you may be able to pick one up soon.

Concerning magic items there is something known as the "big six" that is generally considered must have items in Pathfinder. For your character these would be: Magic weapons, Magic armor, ring of protection, amulet of natural armor, cloak of resistance, and belt of dexterity. You mentioned that point buy makes characters seem samey, but unfortunately the fact that most characters in Pathfinder spend the majority of their gold in these 6 item types does so more IMO, but then again it's never been too big of a deal for me.


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ChaiGuy wrote:
Concerning magic items there is something known as the "big six" that is generally considered must have items in Pathfinder. For your character these would be: Magic weapons, Magic armor, ring of protection, amulet of natural armor, cloak of resistance, and belt of dexterity. You mentioned that point buy makes characters seem samey, but unfortunately the fact that most characters in Pathfinder spend the majority of their gold in these 6 item types does so more IMO, but then again it's never been too big of a deal for me.

I don't think that's quite right, because I'm positive the big 6 included both a belt of physical stat, and a headband of mental stat. The headband is sure to benefit everyone, even if you're not a caster.


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There are some useful tools Here for players


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I thought the "big six" were the six Tomes +5.

actually I never heard of the big six, I just want to be obnoxious.


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Azurespark wrote:
ChaiGuy wrote:
Concerning magic items there is something known as the "big six" that is generally considered must have items in Pathfinder. For your character these would be: Magic weapons, Magic armor, ring of protection, amulet of natural armor, cloak of resistance, and belt of dexterity. You mentioned that point buy makes characters seem samey, but unfortunately the fact that most characters in Pathfinder spend the majority of their gold in these 6 item types does so more IMO, but then again it's never been too big of a deal for me.
I don't think that's quite right, because I'm positive the big 6 included both a belt of physical stat, and a headband of mental stat. The headband is sure to benefit everyone, even if you're not a caster.

You're right, I should've said "ability score increasing item's" rather than "belt of dex" since I was talking about the "big six" specifically. Eventually I'd imagine an item (headband?) of wisdom to help with will saves and perception (and other wisdom based skills) would be nice, but I'd imagine that dex takes priority for item based increase.


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ChaiGuy wrote:
Azurespark wrote:
ChaiGuy wrote:
Concerning magic items there is something known as the "big six" that is generally considered must have items in Pathfinder. For your character these would be: Magic weapons, Magic armor, ring of protection, amulet of natural armor, cloak of resistance, and belt of dexterity. You mentioned that point buy makes characters seem samey, but unfortunately the fact that most characters in Pathfinder spend the majority of their gold in these 6 item types does so more IMO, but then again it's never been too big of a deal for me.
I don't think that's quite right, because I'm positive the big 6 included both a belt of physical stat, and a headband of mental stat. The headband is sure to benefit everyone, even if you're not a caster.
You're right, I should've said "ability score increasing item's" rather than "belt of dex" since I was talking about the "big six" specifically. Eventually I'd imagine an item (headband?) of wisdom to help with will saves and perception (and other wisdom based skills) would be nice, but I'd imagine that dex takes priority for item based increase.

Oh yea, for a rogue, a belt of dex should take priority over a headband of wis or int.


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yeah, the "big 6" for a rogue is the listed items. Yes a rogue can benefit from a headband, but the "big 6" only factor in getting the 1 headband/belt for your main stat.


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I thought the big 6 was a universal list that all characters would want.


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I think that the general terms for the "big six" as they would apply to all characters would be: Attack increasing item (for many full casters this could include metamagic rods to make their spells more effective), Armor (which could include bracers of armor for many full casting arcane types, although it's probably not really needed for them). ring of protection, amulet of natural armor, cloak of resistance, and ability score increasing items. Full casting arcane classes have less use for armor and similar items, but can reasonably use most of the others (if you count metamagic rods and similar as the attack increasing item.


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Speaking of magic items, can someone kindly explain them to me?

From what I read, an item can have a max of +10 enchantments. So as an example, it can be a +5 Masterwork Short Sword with two enchantments one +2 and one +3? Or is there a limit to how many enchantments can be applied to a weapon?

What about armors? I found the Greater Shadow enchantment that counts as a +5. But if I apply it to a cloak, what else can be done with it? How do enchantments like... Fly fill into it? Or say, something like that ring that lets you mark a spot and then teleport back to it.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
NaeNae wrote:
From what I read, an item can have a max of +10 enchantments. So as an example, it can be a +5 Masterwork Short Sword with two enchantments one +2 and one +3? Or is there a limit to how many enchantments can be applied to a weapon?

You can have any number of enhancements so long as they don't add up to more than +10. So you can have +3 flaming icy holy short sword, (+1 from flaming, +1 from icy, +2 from holy, and then the +3 adds up to +7 enhancement total).

NaeNae wrote:
What about armors? I found the Greater Shadow enchantment that counts as a +5. But if I apply it to a cloak, what else can be done with it? How do enchantments like... Fly fill into it? Or say, something like that ring that lets you mark a spot and then teleport back to it.

Armor works the same as weapons, but shadow is different. The Greater Shadow enhancement simply adds a flat 33,750 gp increase to the price of the armor, on top of whatever enhancement bonus it has.

You're getting the +5 from random item loot tables. That's for GM's to roll random loot, and means that there's a chance that a randomly-generated +5 armor will have the greater shadow enhancement. This has no impact on you if you're crafting or buying from merchants.


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The +10 limit is for the total of all enchantments -- you could theoretically have a +1 weapon with nine additional +1-cost enchantments. Note that fixed-cost enchantments (anything that costs +X gold instead of "a +1 bonus" or "a +2 bonus") do not count against this limit.

You could have a +5 shortsword with a +2-bonus and a +3-bonus enchantment, and that would add up to your +10 maximum.

Shadow Lodge

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NaeNae wrote:
Dasrak wrote:
Normally with rolled stats you shouldn't go in with a preset plan and should instead be flexible based on what the dice give you.

"This time, I want to play a gnome who TWFs swizzlesticks, because that's totally also his name! Swizzlesticks!" <roll six 14s...aw f#@%; it's like 30pts, but I can't make what I *want*>

Die-roll generation sucks. Always, and forevermore. When it works, you're vastly more powerful than the poor chump who scrapes in with the minimum and who is then supposed to just suck in his gut and "enjoy" the "challenge" of getting his face caved in every session. (It's also a PITA for the GM, because he has to design encounters that won't leave your 19,16,16,15,15,14 PC bored if they're not going to straight wax the others at the table.)

Quote:
If you'd rather have consistency to do what you want, point buy is the better system. But point buy is so... Boring. There is no variation, no chellange. Everyone will look the same, just the places where they apply their 18s and 8s varies.
There's no variation in 17,14,12,12,12,12 or 15,14,14,12,12,12 human anything versus 19,16,12,12,10,07 elven wizard? 17,14,14,14,12,05 dwarf tank? 17,16,14,14,12,07 halfling rogue? 20,14,14,10,07,07 minmaxed half-orc barbarian or human sorc?
Quote:
Point Buy seems too much like min/maxing to me... I don't like that.

No, it's like finessing your character. Because it's a challenge to make every precious point work (and min/maxing generally runs counter to that concept, which is why I'm frequently shaking my head when I observe a player put an 18 into a stat at character-creation, race-bump it to 20, then raise a lower stat at 4th (which costs big points relative to starting with 17>19 + higher secondary stat, then bumping the prime stat at 4th).

~ ~ ~

Point-buy lets every player make what they want (save for those who demand teens in everything) while making the GMs job easier (because no one is overpowered at the attribute level). I.e., point-buy's "consistency" is more for the GM, not the player (although I want that consistency too).

If you want a challenge, play with 15 point-buy or even 10pt or 5pt. Commoners on the warpath!

Liberty's Edge

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NaeNae wrote:

Speaking of magic items, can someone kindly explain them to me?

From what I read, an item can have a max of +10 enchantments. So as an example, it can be a +5 Masterwork Short Sword with two enchantments one +2 and one +3? Or is there a limit to how many enchantments can be applied to a weapon?

What about armors? I found the Greater Shadow enchantment that counts as a +5. But if I apply it to a cloak, what else can be done with it? How do enchantments like... Fly fill into it? Or say, something like that ring that lets you mark a spot and then teleport back to it.

Armor and weapons are a little different than wondrous items like cloaks amulets, etc.

Armor and magic items yes, can have a maximum literal direct enhancement bonus of +5, and they can have a maximum if +10 equivalent.
Each enhancement bonus costs exponentially more than the last, so a +1 weapon is 2,000 gp, but a +2 or +1 keen weapon is 8,000 gp, and so on. For armor, it's half that: +1 is 1,000, +2 is 4,000, etc.
There's no limit to how many different enchantments can be on an item directly - you could make a +1 keen flaming shocking acidic greyflame impervious .....whatever, as long as you a) had the money and b) didn't have more than a +5 enhancement / +10 total counting special abilities.

To hide with a cloak, you want a cloak of elven kind, not a shadow cloak. To combine that with a cloak of resistance, say, you'd have to ask your DM if it's for sale or you can special order it, or craft it yourself, or get a party member to do it. To figure out it's cost, you'd take 1.5 times the cheaper enchantment + the full cost of the more expensive one.
For example, a +1 cloak of resistance of elven kind would be 2,500 + 1.5*(1,000) or 4,000 gp.


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NaeNae wrote:

Speaking of magic items, can someone kindly explain them to me?

From what I read, an item can have a max of +10 enchantments. So as an example, it can be a +5 Masterwork Short Sword with two enchantments one +2 and one +3? Or is there a limit to how many enchantments can be applied to a weapon?

What about armors? I found the Greater Shadow enchantment that counts as a +5. But if I apply it to a cloak, what else can be done with it? How do enchantments like... Fly fill into it? Or say, something like that ring that lets you mark a spot and then teleport back to it.

Concerning Fly, are you talking about the fly spell? If so spells effect your character, unless they effect your gear like the spell magic vestments.

One thing about magic items is that they each take a slot, so the number of magic items a character can use is limited by these slots. There are a lot of slots so it only becomes an issue at higher levels.


blashimov wrote:
To hide with a cloak, you want a cloak of elven kind, not a shadow cloak.

Why would I want to pick a +5 over +15 to Stealth checks? I imagine when I have the ability to pick what magic items I want to have, the cost is a minor issue.

So I am to understand, that it's possible to have bonus magical properties on items, as long as they are not seen as a +X enchantment? So I can have say... Wings of Flying, which has no +X just gild cost. Then Greater Shadow for a +5 and say... Spell Resistance 19?

Edit:
I just noticed some enchantments have Price of +X Bonus and some have just Gold Price. Is it what you ment with just gold cost? Does that mean you can stack all gold enchantments on one item without limits? If so, it's extremely overpowered.

Liberty's Edge

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Cost is rarely a minor issue. I've gone to level 20 with a character who was great at stealth who never picked up better than regular shadow armor (+5 bonus). The earliest you can have a greater shadowed armor is usually level 9. By that point in the game, it assumes you should have a magic weapon, magical boost to saves, AC and likely your best ability score. You can give those up, but you'd be hyper-focusing the character on stealth, which won't be useful in every situation. Aside from that, you can usually get by with potions of invisibility for much cheaper, at least until things like tremor-sense, and true-seeing start becoming more prevalent.

To clarify the armor thing, you can have as many armor enchantments that cost a flat price as you want, like shadow or energy resistance. Spell Resistance is a + equivalent enchantment, so they combine with regular enhancement bonuses for the +10 total bonus. In order to enchant items with these abilities, they must be considered armor (or a shield) and must already have a +1 enhancement bonus. The magic item creation rules say that only armor can be enchanted as magic armor, though a GM might let that go, and let you enchant it considering it armor that provides 0 AC. That's not the base assumption though. The enchantment bonus also wouldn't stack with any other magical armor, so there's little reason to enchant things this way, unless you really want to say that it's a magic cloak that's providing your stealth bonus.

Also, wings of flying and spell resistance on armor are usually poor item decisions. Wings of flying are pretty expensive compared to items like winged boots, carpets of flying, or just plain potions of fly. And spell resistance usually disrupts beneficial spells as much as it prevents offensive spells from affecting you, since most enemy spellcasters will be your level or higher. You'd often be better off just spending the money boosting saves.


It was just a random idea. But I get it now. So what would you propose for magical items?

Belt with a bonus to dexterity? How high can such a belt go?


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It all depends on how much money one has. But the basics are(For rogue at least)

1. Magical weapon(s).
2. Magical armor(Mithral chain shirt is a good when it can be afforded)
3. Amulet of Natural armor
4. Ring of protection
5. Cloak of resistance
6. Belt of DEX (Assuming one if going with a dex build)

Now all of that is just to keep your basic abilities working. Armor class is high enough, saves are high enough, and that your to hit bonus is high enough.

It should be pointed out that those items, will take your Armor, Neck, ring(1 of the 2), Shoulder and belt slots. This means that you can't get other items that occupy those same slots.

There are more items that you want but those should take the vast majority of your gold. One should also keep in mind that upgrading the bonus is exponentially expensive, in practice this means, that it is smarter to get a ring or protection +1 instead of replacing your amulet of natural armor from +1 to +2.


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Besides the essential "big 6" for a rogue, I'd suggest the eye slot item Eyes of the Eagle for a nice +5 competence bonus to perception for a reasonable 2,500 gold. A handy haversack is also nice for the extra carrying capacity (2000 gold).

Trapspringer's Gloves gives a nice +5 competence bonus to disable device and +1 luck to saves vs traps, it's a little more pricey at 4,000 gold. Getting masterwork thieves tools which gives a +2 circumstance bonus to disable device. One thing about Pathfinder is that you need to make sure you keep track of what the bonus types you gain from items, spells ect. since most bonus types don't add together (or stack as it is often called), instead your character gains the benefit of the higher bonus. In this case the bonuses from Trapspringer's Gloves and masterwork thieves tools stack, since the bonuses are competence and circumstance.

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