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Everything is Illegal until it's mentioned as legal in additional resources.
Updates to it will normally happen the second half of the month if it's getting updated, at least that's the goal per Leadership. (roughly it's spend first of month looking it over and then on the 15th hand it off to the publishing people to put on the page. Not exact but gives an example)
New softcover material will take at least a month and likely two and sometimes three before making it up. (the summer is the worst for this cause everyone is having cons and wanting a special Paizo guest so like leadership is out doing that half the time and then spending the other half doing the most critical things to keep PFS running)
Hardcovers will sometimes have the additional resources go live the day the book is released, but sometimes it follows the schedule of softcover books.
So I'd say it's likely that we get AA2 out this month, especially cause people will want those toys for Gencon.
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Additional Resources takes a while because it's not just Campaign Leadership that reviews new material; a good chunk of Venture Officers and the community give their thoughts as well.
I'm actually happy that they take their time. In previous years more options would slip through the cracks and eventually get banned or nerfed anyways.
Disallowing unbalanced options from the get go is easier than removing options that players may have already utilized entire characters around.
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Soon...
...
*refreshes AR again*
...
Crap.
also, please keep in mind that this is the busiest time of the year. GenCon is next month, and that takes a lot of work from a lot of people to make happen. And there's StarFinder coming out as well, which is another whole product line.
I realize it's frustrating waiting, especially when there's something you are interested in using.
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Not convinced that this should be a bottleneck. It's not exactly a complicated section of the site; it should be simple to drop in preformatted text for the different books. They've got editors, after all.You're missing the third piece of the puzzle: Paizo's Web Development Team (which consists of one person, last I heard).
With updates being done to the site in preparation for Starfinder Society the AR may have been pushed back.
One would think, but they've told us that it's more work than we think.
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Not convinced that this should be a bottleneck. It's not exactly a complicated section of the site; it should be simple to drop in pre-formatted text for the different books. They've got editors, after all.You're missing the third piece of the puzzle: Paizo's Web Development Team (which consists of one person, last I heard).
With updates being done to the site in preparation for Starfinder Society the AR may have been pushed back.
There is a big different between what is produced by the editors and what is needed to put something onto a website. If you have never done that, it is an eye openning experience.
Paizo's website is not overly complex, but it still has 3 or 4 distinct areas on the screen. The person doing the work needs to convert the finished product into code that a browser can understand. The have to create links as needed. Make sure the colors are correct (red for new changes, remove red from the prior update, etc.) They then have to double check the work to make sure the information is correct. Can you image what would happen if a "not" was missing in this sentence, "Drow are not legal"?
Then they have to contact the website admin to push the update out. Then they have to update all the pages that link to the new information.
Oh, and have to make sure that the page scales from PC to Tablet or Phone. And that the changes work with Explorer, Mozilla, Apple devices, android devices.
And I am sure that I have missed A LOT of steps.
So it is not as easy as people think it is. Should it be? Yea, but computers are not easy. And websites are even worse.
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As a professional courtesy, can we avoid jumping on the "there must be optimization methods" speculation bandwagon? We've been done that path before. I get that it's a typical bottleneck, but that should be something considered by earlier teams and, without knowing the exact specifics, speculation isn't helpful. What I will say is that the last update happened on a Saturday, and that tells me that it was likely a "this is a task I can do when people won't interrupt me" sort of thing.
I'm understanding of the fact that summer con season is busy. At the same time, an update before GenCon is pretty critical and it feels like that's being punted to the last possible moment. We're at 2.5 months since the last AR and I cannot fathom the possibility that it rests solely on the web development team. That seems incredibly unlikely.
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I just wish we could get status updates on things like.
We're still having the VOs look at it.
We're now having leadership look at it.
We're now writing up the document
We've handed it off to the publishing team and it will go up when they can put it up.
Like this way we have some sort of place to work from. If they still haven't had leadership look at it then we know it's a ways off. If it's gone to publishing we can hope it's within a week.
But we don't the best we get is that John sometimes comments that he's handed it off to publishing. But most of the time we just wait.
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The problem in this thread is that people are prioritizing the update to Additional Resources, when I'm pretty sure updating the actual website to accommodate Starfinder is Paizo's priority.
So, sure, Campaign Leadership may be done with everything on their end, and the actual uploading of it may take mere hours, but doing that is #476 in the queue of total work being done.
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The problem in this thread is that people are prioritizing the update to Additional Resources, when I'm pretty sure updating the actual website to accommodate Starfinder is Paizo's priority.
So, sure, Campaign Leadership may be done with everything on their end, and the actual uploading of it may take mere hours, but doing that is #476 in the queue of total work being done.
I think people prioritize the updating of the AR page because they buy products they want to use in PFS. Some players can only play Pathfinder in a PFS situation, which makes the justification that they can use them in home games less reasonable.
I for instance pay for the subscription because it is the best value for getting the product, and I personally think 4 updates a year to the AR page is unacceptable for a company. If they are struggling to meet their consumers' needs due to insufficient resources, then Paizo needs to hire more resources. And this is not the first time we heard that the web team has more tasks then man hours to do in a timely fashion. This problem is a Paizo issue, not a campaign leadership fault or the fault of the web team.
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Paizo recently put a survey on their FB page (linky) about subscriptions. If you feel that the AR update velocity is a factor in your decision to purchase subscriptions to their products, I would recommend that you tell them via that channel. I certainly did.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Paizo recently put a survey on their FB page (linky) about subscriptions. If you feel that the AR update velocity is a factor in your decision to purchase subscriptions to their products, I would recommend that you tell them via that channel. I certainly did.
I'm a bit hesitant to fill that in since I'm not a subscriber at all.
Actually I go for the "vote with my wallet" approach. I've resolved not to buy books until they're in the AR.
... and the last time AR rolled around, it was already all there on Nethys, and I could see practically nothing interesting had become legal, so I didn't buy it at all.
There were a couple of "cool idea, but written so over the top that it won't make it in" things. Which saddens me because Paizo isn't likely to make a new toned-down version of something they just published.
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Paizo recently put a survey on their FB page (linky) about subscriptions. If you feel that the AR update velocity is a factor in your decision to purchase subscriptions to their products, I would recommend that you tell them via that channel. I certainly did.
Thanks for posting that - some of us don't FB and I was a subscriber for a time.
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John Compton recently replied to a post I made in the thread for the most recent Blog post.
He said that the Adventurers Guide stuff is done and that they are adding a few other resources to it before they update the Additional Resources. He also said it's something they are pushing towards before Gen Con.
So... Soon?
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To provide some insight: the entire company is in the midst of preparing for Gen Con, where we're releasing an all new game and Organized Play campaign. This is an all-hands-on-deck effort, and we understand that folks are antsy to find out what new things they can use for their characters. We appreciate your patience as we push to get ducks in a row here.
However, it's really not productive to start picking apart our staffing resources here, or to make assumptions about our web development environment. For clarification: I am not strictly part of the "web team" (you can find a relatively accurate breakdown of our departments on the Contact Us page, if this is something you're curious about), but actually have a hand in a number of jars (some relevant to community, operations, marketing, and web). I can however assure you that as part of our leadup to Gen Con, we are looking at ways to smooth out parts of the process to getting things on the website once Org Play has completed them.
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To provide some insight: the entire company is in the midst of preparing for Gen Con, where we're releasing an all new game and Organized Play campaign. This is an all-hands-on-deck effort, and we understand that folks are antsy to find out what new things they can use for their characters. We appreciate your patience as we push to get ducks in a row here.
However, it's really not productive to start picking apart our staffing resources here, or to make assumptions about our web development environment. For clarification: I am not strictly part of the "web team" (you can find a relatively accurate breakdown of our departments on the Contact Us page, if this is something you're curious about), but actually have a hand in a number of jars (some relevant to community, operations, marketing, and web). I can however assure you that as part of our leadup to Gen Con, we are looking at ways to smooth out parts of the process to getting things on the website once Org Play has completed them.
I do not think this is picking apart your staffing. I think that you guys at Paizo know that the majority of the community wants to see updates more regularly and it has not been happening. Fact is, your web team is not big, Paizo as a whole is not a big company in terms of employees (As the link you provided shows). Also, as you said yourself, you are not strictly just web team, you have your time split among a number of responsibilities. We have had numerous reports in the past where campaign leadership says they are done with their part and it is waiting in the que to get pushed out (maybe that is the web team's que, maybe that is another team's) but that points at resource deficiency. That is not a bad thing per say because it means there is lots of things to do and Paizo is growing (like adding Starfinder!). That is good for the player base, it means you guys are not going anywhere any time soon. However as a customer who spends a lot of money with Paizo as a company (Books, Minis, APs, Scenarios, etc.) I feel you guys can do better and probably need more resources to do so.
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it is waiting in the que to get pushed outIt's waiting in the what to get pushed out? (pun intended)
p.s. it's queue
Que is your point?
;)
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Tiwaz, welcome to PFS. It is an enjoyable recreation, despite its flaws.
As others have stated, Additional Resources has been dreadfully slow to update for quite some time now. There's also a (perceived?) history of bait & switch, where a powerful / flavorful / appropriate / useful bit is published, helping drive sales of a product, only to not receive PFS approval, or worse, receive retro-nerfing-into-uselessness or banning. Sadly, in response, I recommend not making a purchase until the product has been posted to Additional Resources. Even then, buyer beware.
Paizo, the Gen Con excuse seems like a self-inflicted wound to me. I do not sympathize. I'd hate to wait a year for it, but if Gen Con is such a problem, consider skipping it next year to get caught up on the backlog of consumer issues? Perhaps a lesser solution is leaving some decision makers at the office to get work done.
...the last update happened on a Saturday, and that tells me that it was likely a "this is a task I can do when people won't interrupt me" sort of thing.
This supports leaving some decision makers at the mother ship during convention season.
Manpower shortage, of this duration, also seems like a self-inflicted wound. I wish I had the search-fu to find the promises of Starfinder not being an anchor around the neck of PFS. I thought Paizo was delusional at the time for declaring it. Again, thanks for what you do, but no sympathy. Hire people.
I personally think 4 updates a year to the AR page is unacceptable for a company. If they are struggling to meet their consumers' needs due to insufficient resources, then Paizo needs to hire more resources. And this is not the first time we heard that the web team has more tasks then man hours to do in a timely fashion. This problem is a Paizo issue, not a campaign leadership fault or the fault of the web team.
...
However as a customer who spends a lot of money with Paizo as a company (Books, Minis, APs, Scenarios, etc.) I feel you guys can do better and probably need more resources to do so.
Agreed.
If more resources cannot be obtained, then publishing overreach should be curtailed. Cut back on the publishing schedule until staffing catches up.If updating Additional Resources were a priority:
Vetting teams would receive product well in advance of product release.
Vetting teams would finish the process in advance of product release.
And, AR would be updated on day of product release.
The timely updating of Additional Resources is clearly not a Paizo priority. I guess they don't realize (yet) the effect it has on revenue. Or perhaps revenue has fallen, and they've misidentified the fix as More Product! instead of more quality support for the product you already have?
Addendum:
I'll put my efforts where my mouth is on this too... I'm a VA, 4.99 star GM and experienced player. I've signed a NDA. Send me a preview when you send it off to the printer, at least two weeks before release date, starting with the next product to go to printer. I'll review product for you, sending my final report prior to release date, for the price of one hard copy of every product I review.
Get four-to-six folks like me, you're out maybe $300 for a fat hardback, $90 for six copies of a splat book, plus shipping, but we'll get AR back in line. PFS Leadership can compile the six opinions... send out last minute queries on contentious subjects, make the final calls, spiffy up the formatting and send it off to the Web team. Say it takes me two hours to review & write up a splat book, and I net a $15 booklet for my labor & expertise. That's WELL below my vocational rate. I consider it a bargain for Paizo.
Pathfinder Society Lead Developer
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If updating Additional Resources were a priority:
Vetting teams would receive product well in advance of product release.
Vetting teams would finish the process in advance of product release.
And, AR would be updated on day of product release.The timely updating of Additional Resources is clearly not a Paizo priority. I guess they don't realize (yet) the effect it has on revenue. Or perhaps revenue has fallen, and they've misidentified the fix as More Product! instead of more quality support for the product you already have?
I'll put my efforts where my mouth is on this too... I'm a VA, 4.99 star GM and experienced player. I've signed a NDA. Send me a preview when you send it off to the printer, at least two weeks before release date, starting with the next product to go to printer. I'll review product for you, sending my final report prior to release date, for the price of one hard copy of every product I review.
Get four-to-six folks like me, you're out maybe $300 for a fat hardback, $90 for six copies of a splat book, plus shipping, but we'll get AR back in line. PFS Leadership can compile the six opinions... send out last minute queries on contentious subjects, make the final calls, spiffy up the formatting and send it off to the Web team. Say it takes me two hours to review & write up a splat book, and I net a $15 booklet for my labor & expertise. That's WELL below my vocational rate. I consider it a bargain for Paizo.
Hi Harold,
A robust team of volunteers helps Linda and me vet new products with Pathfinder Society in mind. They receive the product well in advance, they create and observe deadlines to provide us feedback, and they're consistently thorough in their reviews. Much like you've observed, that process then goes through Linda and me, the difference being that we're also reading all of the new rules and including the team's feedback in our assessment. Minus the solid time commitment, it's a good process, and I very much appreciate the help from the current volunteer cadre.
Appreciated,
John
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I just have to admit I'm confused by what comes after that. It goes to the web team instead of somewhere the people that decide what it is has the ability to change and update because....?
I mean no one LIKES hold ups. But we understand most hold ups. That next part definitely rates a backfoot headscratch.
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While it doesn't affect me this year, as I'm not making Gen Con, it would be nice if this robust AR update happens well in advance of Gen Con, so that people aren't surprised by drastic changes to characters as they travel to the convention as what happened a few years back with the Advanced Races Errata that landed on the Wednesday before Gen Con.
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If that happens, I would advise everyone to be aware of a section that was added to Guide 8.0, starting on page 22.
Oftentimes, changes to the campaign, whether through
errata, additional resources, or campaign clarifications,
are made just before a convention or game day comes
about. Unfortunately, this occurs most often when
members of the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild
aren’t able to easily access such information. When this
occurs, the member does not have to implement the
change until after that convention or game session. GMs
should mark any Chronicle sheet earned at that event
as ID, for “implementation delay.” Players then have the
ensuing time to update their characters to meet current
campaign guidelines.
EXCEPT!
How is a GM supposed to know that IN ADDITION to prepping scenarios, making sure they get to the convention, etc, etc, etc?
It makes no sense and it smacks of a certain tier of elitism to assume that a GM has an instant neural download of all new errata/corrections.
Some GMs do not have access to the 'Net on a regular basis *to begin with* and to presume such is detrimental to the community as a whole.
ie, for example, there was discussion about the Jingasa. But if I didn't have the level of connection to know about that discussion, then when someone played at my table, I as a GM may not know about that 'correction' until weeks or months after the table is run.
Do we have to then retroactively assign damage/character death/etc because we as GMs have made a 'good faith' effort to keep up on the ruleset, and were impacted by the blitzratta as much as everyone else?
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It also doesn't give a hard time-frame for how long "just before" a convention is. I think this is a rule that could benefit from a hard deadline. Maybe 2 weeks after the AR, errata, or clarification change?
How about two years?
EDIT: I work in retail full-time in an environment with no Net access permitted during one's shift.
This means working odd weird hours and trying to shoehorn 'prep' time in between while also helping maintain a household and trying to have some personal time to de-stress.
When I volunteer to run things, I've found I need at LEAST a month and a half of 'lead time' to be ready to run it well, anything less is effectively 'running cold' for me.
Now 'Campaign Clarifications/Additional Resources' drop in two weeks before a convention and I'm expected to know *all* of them?
Not. Gonna. Happen.
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Is a 2 week grace period after changes are made before a convention or game day unrealistic? I thought it sounded ok.
Ah I see your edit. Maybe a month from the change date? It makes it very simple at least. If a change is made on 7/14/2017 you have until 8/14/2017 to implement the change for conventions and gamedays.
The point being it should be something a little less subjective.
This also isn't your responsibility as a GM. Don't worry if you are volunteering your time that you have to audit characters for the rules changes (but if you are aware you write implementation delay). The rule is saying the player doesn't have to implement the changes until after the convention.
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Ah I see your edit. Maybe a month from the change date? It makes it very simple at least. If a change is made on 7/14/2017 you have until 8/14/2017 to implement the change for conventions and gamedays.The point being it should be something a little less subjective.
This also isn't your responsibility as a GM. Don't worry if you are volunteering your time that you have to audit characters for the rules changes (but if you are aware you write implementation delay). The rule is saying the player doesn't have to implement the changes until after the convention.
Yes, but if someone goes "Well, so and so didn't write ID' on my sheet, so *I* didn't know I had to fix it" then it does become my responsbility as a GM, because they will look at who signed off on the chronicle, and then it'll fall back into my lap.
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That is already something you should do. If you know it needs to be changed write ID, if the player knows they don't have to do anything yet, and if nobody knows then don't worry about it until someone figures it out.
I'm trying to solve the problem that can arise where, because of the subjective time to fix the issue, the player says "The change just hit and I haven't had time to update my character yet. I'll fix it after the convention." The GM replies "It's been 3 weeks! I won't let you play this character. Grab a pregen."
That would really make me upset going to a convention and having this happen so it is best if it is a specific time-frame.
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If that happens, I would advise everyone to be aware of a section that was added to Guide 8.0, starting on page 22.
Oftentimes, changes to the campaign, whether through
errata, additional resources, or campaign clarifications,
are made just before a convention or game day comes
about. Unfortunately, this occurs most often when
members of the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild
aren’t able to easily access such information. When this
occurs, the member does not have to implement the
change until after that convention or game session. GMs
should mark any Chronicle sheet earned at that event
as ID, for “implementation delay.” Players then have the
ensuing time to update their characters to meet current
campaign guidelines.
EXCEPT!
How is a GM supposed to know that IN ADDITION to prepping scenarios, making sure they get to the convention, etc, etc, etc?
It makes no sense and it smacks of a certain tier of elitism to assume that a GM has an instant neural download of all new errata/corrections.
Some GMs do not have access to the 'Net on a regular basis *to begin with* and to presume such is detrimental to the community as a whole.
ie, for example, there was discussion about the Jingasa. But if I didn't have the level of connection to know about that discussion, then when someone played at my table, I as a GM may not know about that 'correction' until weeks or months after the table is run.
Do we have to then retroactively assign damage/character death/etc because we as GMs have made a 'good faith' effort to keep up on the ruleset, and were impacted by the blitzratta as much as everyone else?
I think this clause isn't to put the onus on the GM, but rather to protect the player against strict GMs.
I was GM'ing a high level table during the special at Gen Con Friday Night (the year we had 2 specials, so I think 2015?) and a table of level 11's sat down. Two of which had favored class bonuses that got nerfed on the Wednesday immediately before Gen Con in the Advanced Races Errata. I only knew about it because another VO drew my attention to it, and so I downloaded it to my phone and looked it over.
I brought it to the person's attention, but told them I wasn't going to hold them to it because that wasn't fair.
That's what this clause is doing. It isn't requiring notes on chronicle sheets or it invalidates characters simply because a GM wasn't up to date on changes.
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Yes, but if someone goes "Well, so and so didn't write ID' on my sheet, so *I* didn't know I had to fix it" then it does become my responsbility as a GM, because they will look at who signed off on the chronicle, and then it'll fall back into my lap.
Ah I see your edit. Maybe a month from the change date? It makes it very simple at least. If a change is made on 7/14/2017 you have until 8/14/2017 to implement the change for conventions and gamedays.The point being it should be something a little less subjective.
This also isn't your responsibility as a GM. Don't worry if you are volunteering your time that you have to audit characters for the rules changes (but if you are aware you write implementation delay). The rule is saying the player doesn't have to implement the changes until after the convention.
This isn't an issue. It really isn't. Unless some GM want's to be a jerk, this isn't an issue.
If you, and the player, aren't aware of the change, then nothing changes.
If you are aware of the change, but it came out just before the convention. Then mark the sheet ID. What's the right time frame? I'd say for a player, if it is between the Friday a week before the Convention starts and Convention Start, its in that window. But as always, circumstances may change that opinion. I'll try to err on the side of the player as long as I either don't know them, they have not proven to be untrustworthy, or I know them well enough to know they are trustworthy.
If the player is aware of the change, but they didn't have time to implement it, then it is their responsibility to inform the GM. If they don't, then that's an untrustworthy act. Of course if the GM doesn't know either, then there is no way to know that at the time.
This is an honor system. Lets not parse rules like this so strongly as to make them untenable simply because you want to over-interpret them. The rule's intent is to protect the players.