Looking for recommendations on which Witch patron I should select for a campaign that goes to level 18. I plan on playing a debuff witch (just because I have read these are the most powerful?).
Trickery gets you mirror image early and reverse gravity and time stop late. If you don't have anything specific in mind that's the most solid patron IMO.
Just read through some Guides, how's Time or Elements? Would that complement my planned style of debuffing?
Time offers you the all powerful Haste spell paired with Silence.
If you plan on going to 18, it also gets you Time Stop and Disintegrate, both providing more options.
Most of the debuffing Patrons aren't great because the Witch already gets most of those spells on their spell list, so you could learn them anyway. The Time spells are very valuable because most of them you can't learn and stuff like Disintegrate gives you options versus Undead/Constructs (the usual Mind-Affecting Immune creatures).
Honestly, go with what you'd like but check out the spells and see if they're on your list already, if not its usually a good Patron. A lot of your Debuff options come from your Hexes anyway, so you should use your Patron and spells to round off what you can and cannot do.
Elements - no. That one's about blasting. Time could work, silence is a useful if situational debuff, teleport is useful utility and time stop is useful late game. The annoying thing about time is how many of the patron spells are ones you can get off the witch spell list anyway.
Ahh good point just noticed most of them I can get. Is a debuff even the best type of witch or would you recommend a different one for the most powerful in combat. The style that best suits the witches spell list and hexes.
Debuffing is the way the witch spell list (as opposed to some patron spells) points you, sure. The same but even more so for the hexes.
The witch spell list is light on defensive spells which is why the trickery patron giving you mirror image is notable. You don't need to take a patron with debuffing spells, there's plenty on the witch spell list already.
Actually, Elements (the only one that gives you Fireball) or one of the Patrons allowed for the Winter Witch archetype could work just fine if you are planning to be a debuffer AND a blaster. (Somebody needs to write a Blockbuster Witch guide.) Just make sure to get Dazing Spell(*), Persistent Spell(**), and Rime Spell(***). Also consider VMC Wizard (Evoker:Admixturer)(****) if you plan to take an archetype that trades out Familiar.
(*)Failed Save = be Dazed for 1 round per original spell level. With a No-Save original spell, it allows a Will Save to avoid the Dazed effect (the rest of the spell remains No-Save), so choose damaging spells that allow a Save on an opponent's weakest Save. Takes 3 spell levels more to cast than the original spell. Also, the Dazed duration stacks with any Dazed duration inherent to the spell.
(**)Have to Save 2 times to Save. Takes 2 spell levels more to cast than the normal spell; usually better than 2 ranks of Heighten Spell (although the latter will do a handful of things that Persistent Spell can't do, such as putting a spell over the top to get through a Globe/Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, or serve as the prerequisite for certain other feats).
(***)Entangled for 1 round per original spell level. Only applies to spells that do Cold damage, but only takes 1 spell level more to cast than the normal spell, and no Save against the Entanglement if the spell damages the target(s) at all. Also, the Entangled duration stacks with any Entangled duration inherent to the original spell. Note that if you take the Winter Witch Prestige class, as soon as you can select a Major Hex, take Numbing Chill (described in the prestige class) as a rider go go on top of your Cold spells; later, half of the damage of your Cold spells bypasses Immunity and Resistance, so Rime Spell will still work even on targets that have Immunity or Resistance.
(****)Costs 5 feats, but you gain a Familiar (so you could take some Witch archetype that trades out Familiar; if you don't, reportedly your Familiar levels at double speed), and then gives you the Admixturer Wizard's ability to change the Energy/Elemental type of applicable spells.
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Time and trickery stand out to me with
Haste, disintergrate and time stop being stand out for the former and mirror image, reverse gravity and time stop for the latter, probably the most stand out being mirror image or haste depending on your party comp.
Ya its hard to go against Haste, mirror image is excellent though. Is Haste just too good to give up?
Ya its hard to go against Haste, mirror image is excellent though. Is Haste just too good to give up?
Only one person in the party needs to be able to haste, and for the most part people who fight with weapons (and kinetic blades, mystic bolts, etc.) really benefit from it. So it depends on who else is in the party.
If you really want Mirror Image a single level into the Veiled Illusionist Prestige Class will give it to you; if thats a thing that you fancy.
I'm playing a party with 3 bruisers and me as the only Arcane Caster (Witch) and Haste has paid itself off who knows how many times. The better your frontline, the less you need to rely on Mirror Image so it does depend on your lineup.
I like Ancestors mostly because it provides divine buff spells you can't get from arcane.
Transformation is awesome.
Time, trickery, or Occult.
Since occult hasn't been mentioned I feel command undead is a godsend verses undead. Twilight knife gives you something verse incorporeal and you can add toppling to it. Black tentacles is a great control spell. I've always had good use for waves of exhaustion. And top it all off with gate. You can play a good occult and never cast create undead...or balance your alignment by casting good spells.
Trickery gets you mirror image early and reverse gravity and time stop late. If you don't have anything specific in mind that's the most solid patron IMO.
We now have a Paladin, alchemist and a samurai in the group. Would you still suggest the Trickery patron? We no longer have any sort of haste or similar spells (ie. Blessing of Fervor). A part of me really wants Mirror Image but another part of me is telling me Haste will be useful for our group as well Silence could assist with my witch's debuff style of play. Would love to hear from you avr and what you think.
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Yeah, haste really is good, and you want it more often than magic items can easily supply. The ancestors patron is loaded with buffs including blessing of fervor and time has a bunch of useful spells besides haste. Agility also has haste and some a bunch of useful spells, if not quite as useful as times' in general.
If you're not going to be using mirror image check that your GM is OK with ironskin - it's a spell banned in PFS but the next best defensive spell you'll find.
Are the Paladin and Samurai front line? Cause if so I don't think you'll need mirror too much could probably rely on flight for most things.
Just remember to drop obscuring mist or similar on ranged guys.
Can't really advise on the patron as I chose mine on what thematically suited my witch (healing which is definitely not powerful). But what I can say is that thus far (level 6) is that for defence I've gotten a lot of mileage out of using Mount and Flight; at least up until the GM decided to have some cultists spontaneously sprout insect wings so they could fly up and attack. It might be worth trying to get a magical mithril buckler. I wish I'd known about Ironskin.
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Spontaneously sprouting insect wings
Sounds ...
yeah.
Yeah, haste really is good, and you want it more often than magic items can easily supply. The ancestors patron is loaded with buffs including blessing of fervor and time has a bunch of useful spells besides haste. Agility also has haste and some a bunch of useful spells, if not quite as useful as times' in general.
If you're not going to be using mirror image check that your GM is OK with ironskin - it's a spell banned in PFS but the next best defensive spell you'll find.
Ya he's cool with Ironskin and both pally and samurai are front liners ya. Out of the other patrons with Haste would you recommend Time? We do have an Alchemist though couldn't he just brew a potion of Haste for us all? Is that an option also? If he can, then which Patron should I go with? My character is mostly focused on debuffing in combat.
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Ya he's cool with Ironskin and both pally and samurai are front liners ya. Out of the other patrons with Haste would you recommend Time? We do have an Alchemist though couldn't he just brew a potion of Haste for us all? Is that an option also? If he can, then which Patron should I go with? My character is mostly focused on debuffing in combat.Yeah, haste really is good, and you want it more often than magic items can easily supply. The ancestors patron is loaded with buffs including blessing of fervor and time has a bunch of useful spells besides haste. Agility also has haste and some a bunch of useful spells, if not quite as useful as times' in general.
If you're not going to be using mirror image check that your GM is OK with ironskin - it's a spell banned in PFS but the next best defensive spell you'll find.
Alchemists are weird. Their haste affects only the one person who drinks the extract, and unless they get the infusion discovery that means they can only buff themselves.
There are weird things you can do with that, but for buffing the whole party it's a bad option. They'd need one extract per person, the infusion discovery, and each person to be buffed would need to spend a standard action. They could make potions of haste rather than extracts but those have similar problems plus a gp cost.
For debuffing time is the best of those patrons.
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Alchemists buffing with haste is horribly inefficient
I'd go time personally threefold aspect can be useful for if you can't afford a headband for whatever reason. Haste is obviously good but so is disintergrate and silence and if you get there time stop is one of the 4 most broken 9th level spells in my opinion. Alongside gate, mages disjunction and wish.
Psychics get some good ones too but eh xD
Ohh didn't know I could cast it in a party member that's a good idea. Would the enemy still get a saving throw to negate it if they were in my allies radius?
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Or you can put it on an archer's arrow. Or a rock for them to throw in a square.
Silence is actually a really good spell.
My favorite use for it is actually getting an adamantine weapon and putting it on that. Then breaking in a door silently. I call it the Master Key.
Or you can put it on an archer's arrow.
Well, ammunition that hits its target is "destroyed" so I have had DM's not allow it with the arrow.
But rocks, a martial friend, etc are all valid. I like the "Master Key."
Or you can put it on an archer's arrow.Well, ammunition that hits its target is "destroyed" so I have had DM's not allow it with the arrow.
But rocks, a martial friend, etc are all valid. I like the "Master Key."
The Last DM I had allowed it only if the Arrow Hits. Acting it out like it got buried in them somewhere: Leg, Arm, shoulder, gut, back....ext Thus the ammunition is destroyed by being permanently lodged in them and removing it breaks the ammo. But he was level headed enough to allow it on a Hit. Which is still rather risky compared to just throwing a silent rock in the area. But really cool when it does hit. Rule of Cool.
This spell sounds very useful. Does it still work in the higher levels?
This spell sounds very useful. Does it still work in the higher levels?
Does it matter?
At higher levels you'll have better things to do with your standard action than cast a level 2 spell anyway. There's a certain obsolescence to most spells. Particularly if you have hexes.
Have you considered any archetypes?
Have you considered any archetypes?
Was thinking about going Invoker despite the slow start