Pathfinder: Kingmaker Announced!

[Artem Lebeda]

Rysky wrote:

I want to save the puppy.

Saving the puppy allows the demon army to summon the dark lord. Kicking it brings about a utopian age of peace and prosperity.

You evil, evil person! XD

[Delightful]

Rysky wrote:

I want to save the puppy.

And I want to eat it.

Hopefully we'll both get want we want!

[Delightful]

Artem Lebeda wrote:

Rysky wrote:

I want to save the puppy.

Saving the puppy allows the demon army to summon the dark lord. Kicking it brings about a utopian age of peace and prosperity.

You evil, evil person! XD

This is starting to remind me of orc baby arguments...

Which is good since I have a bunch of new arguments for why its totally alright and legitimate for Paladins to kill them!

[Rysky]

Artem Lebeda wrote:

Rysky wrote:

I want to save the puppy.

Saving the puppy allows the demon army to summon the dark lord. Kicking it brings about a utopian age of peace and prosperity.

You evil, evil person! XD

I don't need to be summoned, I'm already here saving the puppy.

[Delightful]

Rysky wrote:

Artem Lebeda wrote:

Rysky wrote:

I want to save the puppy.

Saving the puppy allows the demon army to summon the dark lord. Kicking it brings about a utopian age of peace and prosperity.

You evil, evil person! XD

I don't need to be summoned, I'm already here saving the puppy.

Saving it for dinner, right?

[Rysky]

Delightful wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Artem Lebeda wrote:

Rysky wrote:

I want to save the puppy.

Saving the puppy allows the demon army to summon the dark lord. Kicking it brings about a utopian age of peace and prosperity.

You evil, evil person! XD

I don't need to be summoned, I'm already here saving the puppy.

Saving it for dinner, right?

Nu, is good pupper.

[Delightful]

Speaking of Paladins does anyone have an idea how the fall and redemption mechanic would work in a CRPG?

[Silver Griffin]

Glad to see at least some of the nations in the area are going to have an influence on the burgeoning kingdom. Maybe adding Numeria will be a stretch goals. What can I say knowing there is a bit of tech about is very old school & something I appreciate. Or maybe I'm a bit tainted by my exposure to Rifts.

Anyway I want to say thanks to Stratagemini. Your summaries of what we know so far have been very helpful to me.

[donato]

Prestige classes are potentially in the game. I played the demo at PaizoCon and one of the companions had a level in arcane trickster. It was the light-brown haired elven (half-elf?) woman in the companion artwork. She had levels in wizard, rogue, and one level in arcane trickster.

I asked Alexander about prestige classes and he mentioned that the plan is to get all Core prestige classes in to the game. I can't speak as to whether that is from the get go or if it would be a stretch goal.

Also, I was able to recruit Jubilost in the demo. Alexander stated that I was the first person all weekend to have gotten the chance to do so. Pretty interesting!

[Artem Lebeda]

And it is halfway funded!

[Rysky]

Yay!

[atheral]

Jesse Heinig wrote:

Chris Avellone is probably best known for writing Planescape: Torment. He also did a significant amount of work on the Icewind Dale series, Pillars of Eternity, Alpha Protocol, and Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords. He's known best for deep character interactions and moral conundrums that do not have easy solutions. At this time he freelances as a writer for video games like Prey and the new System Shock, which in itself says something - freelancing as a writer in video games is not exactly the kind of career that you can undertake without significant skills, and many studios don't even have in-house writing positions.

Not to mention he was a key writer and designer for Fallout 2, Van Buren, Fallout:New Vegas, and Wasteland 2 which are arguably better written than the rest of the current generation of Fallout games (and seeing as how they aren't actually badly written that's saying something.)

[Stratagemini]

Jesse Heinig wrote:

That wound up being a conflict between him and Josh Sawyer, and I come down solidly on Chris's side. Chris writes stories about tough subjects, and you (the player) have to live with the price of your decisions. So he doesn't write "do you save the puppy or kick it?" because that's boring and trite. He writes "If you knew you were going to Hell regardless, would you still be a good or bad person?" (PS:T) or "If you had to choose between being an evil monster and destroying the universe, or stopping an evil monster and watching all your friends die, who would you be?" (KotoR2:TSL)

Some people do not like this kind of storytelling in their video games.

That's super fine, But Kingmaker isn't a Chris Avellone style story. It isn't about tough subjects to the same degree. it's about Killing the hell out of Jabberwocks and stealing gold mines from Kobolds.

[Dead Phoenix]

donato wrote:

Prestige classes are potentially in the game. I played the demo at PaizoCon and one of the companions had a level in arcane trickster. It was the light-brown haired elven (half-elf?) woman in the companion artwork. She had levels in wizard, rogue, and one level in arcane trickster.

I asked Alexander about prestige classes and he mentioned that the plan is to get all Core prestige classes in to the game. I can't speak as to whether that is from the get go or if it would be a stretch goal.

I just saw this from the guy answering questions in the kickstater comment page:

Berserkerkitten wrote:

Did somebody say Arcane Trickster? Oh boy, have I got news for you. I'm not allowed to pass along any spoilers just yet, which is killing me...

Take that as you will.

[Stratagemini]

From one of the Devs on Reddit: "One of your companions is a bard, documenting your quest."
Lem? I hope it's Lem.

(or Ameiko Kajitsu...)

[Count Buggula]

Stratagemini wrote:

From one of the Devs on Reddit: "One of your companions is a bard, documenting your quest."

Lem? I hope it's Lem.

(or Ameiko Kajitsu...)

As awesome as Ameiko would be, there's definitely no lore-friendly way that would put her all the way over in Brevoy. She's busy enough in Varisia and

Jade Regent AP:

heading over the crown of the world to Tien.

[Stratagemini]

Count Buggula wrote:

Stratagemini wrote:

From one of the Devs on Reddit: "One of your companions is a bard, documenting your quest."

Lem? I hope it's Lem.

(or Ameiko Kajitsu...)

As awesome as Ameiko would be, there's definitely no lore-friendly way that would put her all the way over in Brevoy. She's busy enough in Varisia and ** spoiler omitted **

She was an adventurer before she bought her tavern, wasn't she? While in the tabletop Universe Kingmaker occurs after Runelords, that's not necessarily the case in a Computer game. Even going by the established tabletop chronology though, Jade Regent occurs after Kingmaker (A year later I think, though the fact that the AP takes 5 years makes that timeline super sketchy) she could have gone off on a little sidequest.

[Jesse Heinig]

atheral wrote:

Jesse Heinig wrote:

Chris Avellone is probably best known for writing Planescape: Torment. He also did a significant amount of work on the Icewind Dale series, Pillars of Eternity, Alpha Protocol, and Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords. He's known best for deep character interactions and moral conundrums that do not have easy solutions. At this time he freelances as a writer for video games like Prey and the new System Shock, which in itself says something - freelancing as a writer in video games is not exactly the kind of career that you can undertake without significant skills, and many studios don't even have in-house writing positions.

Not to mention he was a key writer and designer for Fallout 2, Van Buren, Fallout:New Vegas, and Wasteland 2 which are arguably better written than the rest of the current generation of Fallout games (and seeing as how they aren't actually badly written that's saying something.)

Thanks for the compliment, I suppose?

[Stratagemini]

Jesse Heinig wrote:

atheral wrote:

Jesse Heinig wrote:

Chris Avellone is probably best known for writing Planescape: Torment. He also did a significant amount of work on the Icewind Dale series, Pillars of Eternity, Alpha Protocol, and Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords. He's known best for deep character interactions and moral conundrums that do not have easy solutions. At this time he freelances as a writer for video games like Prey and the new System Shock, which in itself says something - freelancing as a writer in video games is not exactly the kind of career that you can undertake without significant skills, and many studios don't even have in-house writing positions.

Not to mention he was a key writer and designer for Fallout 2, Van Buren, Fallout:New Vegas, and Wasteland 2 which are arguably better written than the rest of the current generation of Fallout games (and seeing as how they aren't actually badly written that's saying something.)

Thanks for the compliment, I suppose?

You're the same Jesse Heinig that created the S.P.E.C.I.A.L. system? The one that's a Russian Soldier in Call of Duty 2?

[Jesse Heinig]

Stratagemini wrote:

Jesse Heinig wrote:

atheral wrote:

Jesse Heinig wrote:

Chris Avellone is probably best known for writing Planescape: Torment. He also did a significant amount of work on the Icewind Dale series, Pillars of Eternity, Alpha Protocol, and Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords. He's known best for deep character interactions and moral conundrums that do not have easy solutions. At this time he freelances as a writer for video games like Prey and the new System Shock, which in itself says something - freelancing as a writer in video games is not exactly the kind of career that you can undertake without significant skills, and many studios don't even have in-house writing positions.

Not to mention he was a key writer and designer for Fallout 2, Van Buren, Fallout:New Vegas, and Wasteland 2 which are arguably better written than the rest of the current generation of Fallout games (and seeing as how they aren't actually badly written that's saying something.)

Thanks for the compliment, I suppose?

You're the same Jesse Heinig that created the S.P.E.C.I.A.L. system? The one that's a Russian Soldier in Call of Duty 2?

That's me, though I can't take all the credit for the S.P.E.C.I.A.L. system. Chris Taylor did a bunch of that too, and some of my initial inspirations were swiped from Ars Magica.

[Stratagemini]

Jesse Heinig wrote:

Stratagemini wrote:

You're the same Jesse Heinig that created the S.P.E.C.I.A.L. system? The one that's a Russian Soldier in Call of Duty 2?

That's me, though I can't take all the credit for the S.P.E.C.I.A.L. system. Chris Taylor did a bunch of that too, and some of my initial inspirations were swiped from Ars Magica.

Fair enough. Nice to see you on the Boards, are you also looking forward to Kingmaker?

[atheral]

Jesse Heinig wrote:

That's me, though I can't take all the credit for the S.P.E.C.I.A.L. system. Chris Taylor did a bunch of that too, and some of my initial inspirations were swiped from Ars Magica.

Wow, ok then, Let me give you a real compliment then, not just an inferred one. The Fallout series is one of my favorite franchises, and since you helped create one of the signature building blocks of it, thanks for the 100s of hours of fun.

[Jesse Heinig]

Stratagemini wrote:

Jesse Heinig wrote:

Stratagemini wrote:

You're the same Jesse Heinig that created the S.P.E.C.I.A.L. system? The one that's a Russian Soldier in Call of Duty 2?

That's me, though I can't take all the credit for the S.P.E.C.I.A.L. system. Chris Taylor did a bunch of that too, and some of my initial inspirations were swiped from Ars Magica.

Fair enough. Nice to see you on the Boards, are you also looking forward to Kingmaker?

Quite a bit. I love Chris' writing, and I'm running a KM play-by-post on the boards here. Since the team for the PC game is using Unity, they have a mostly feature-complete barebones engine already, which greatly improves the chances of the project actually completing and shipping.

I expect Chris to take a step back and look at the overall narrative structure of Kingmaker, and build in some interesting characters and conflicts that fit the story of the Adventure Path. For instance, KM has a narrative foible in that there's almost nothing foreshadowing the arrival of the primary antagonist; sure, in the first book you find a dead unicorn, but that tells you nothing other than that someone killed a unicorn. Even though the AP has guidance about what you learn with a speak with dead spell, at that point in the adventure such a spell is far beyond your level, and even then the answers are evasive. So the only clue you get from that is someone powerful enough to kill a unicorn is out there, but you have no sense that they have motivations that will cross paths with you or that there will be a confrontation in the future that will decide the fate of your entire (future, at that point) kingdom. This means that when Nyrissa finally shows up at the end it's kind of a surprise, and it means that the narrative of your low-level adventures is divorced from the higher-level parts. So structurally the thing to do is introduce some element of this story in a way that foreshadows this eventual conflict with the First World (I'm in a KM PbP here as a player, too, where the GM is doing a great job with that). Sorta like how in the original Baldur's Gate you have this confrontation with Sarevok right in the prologue, then you have a bunch of adventures and finally you confront him again at the end. I'm not saying I think we'll see Nyrissa in the intro, but some element of the First World's connection to the River Kingdoms would help to tie this all together.

Chris also tends to write stories in which your character is really important and central, that you have a "destiny," if you will. In KotoR2 your character is the Jedi Exile and your connection to the people around you gives you the potential to destroy the Force. In Planescape: Torment every significant event in the story is the result of something one of your prior incarnations did, that you can't remember. In Fallout: New Vegas, you're left for dead with two bullets in your head, but you crawl out of your own grave and get patched up and sent on your quest for vengeance and understanding.
(Also a recurring motif in Obsidian RPGs/Avellone's writing: You start off dead or presumed dead, and then return to get your bearings from an unreliable narrator. PS:T: Wake up in the Mortuary and get your initial bearings from Morte, who lies to you immediately; KotoR2: Wake up in a medical bay in a death trance, and get summoned to talk to Kreia, a woman who rejects both Jedi and Sith ideology; FNV: After being shot twice in the head and dumped, wake up in the doctor's house, then once you get your bearings you go outside and talk to Victor, the robot who's been strangely watching over you and doesn't tell you why.)

So I'd expect that in KM there will be story elements that riff a bit on Arthurian style, that your Ruler character is carrying a powerful destiny to unite and defend the River Kingdoms against the incursion of the First World. If Chris has enough time I wouldn't be surprised if there's a possible sub-plot where your character could be given the choice to ally with Nyrissa or to even invade the First World and confront her there, then become the "Twice-Crowned King" or something with estates in both Golarion and the First World.

That's all just guesswork on my end, though.

[Stratagemini]

Jesse Heinig wrote:

*SNIP*

A couple of the points you make are actually sort of why I'm worried about Chris taking a large role in this. One of the things I really like about Kingmaker and a lot of Paizo APs is that you aren't the chosen one. you don't have a special destiny. You're just a dude (or dudette, or whatever moniker your character prefers) who is out for adventure and looking to do good. Paizo handles the motivation of Player Characters really well by allowing them to select campaign traits, and I'm really hoping that that won't be thrown away for another tired "chosen one" narrative whose addition is completely unnecessary.

Also, I'm not sure how I feel about my character starting off dead or soul scourged (as happens in Pillars of eternity) or what have you. It seems unnecessarily grim as an opening to what I remember as a Grand Pioneering Adventure.

I do however hope that there is some foreshadowing about the connection. Areas of Fey magic turning up, sightings of fey-touched beasts... That would be really cool as foreshadowing. Even meeting a refugee from Thousandbreaths would be cool.

[Jesse Heinig]

It could be as simple as your character having been targeted by Nyrissa, so the antagonist (in classic literary fashion) winds up driving you to greatness, which causes you to confront her in the end. Also we don't really know how much Chris is doing - he might just be writing dialogs for characters that you meet. *shrug*

[Stratagemini]

Jesse Heinig wrote:

It could be as simple as your character having been targeted by Nyrissa, so the antagonist (in classic literary fashion) winds up driving you to greatness, which causes you to confront her in the end. Also we don't really know how much Chris is doing - he might just be writing dialogs for characters that you meet. *shrug*

Whatever it is will probably involve prophetic dream sequences, or memory dream sequences maybe (since Prophecy doesn't work in Golarion since the death of Aroden). They turn up in every Avellone game I've ever played.

[Robert Little]

Stratagemini wrote:

Whatever it is will probably involve prophetic dream sequences, or memory dream sequences maybe (since Prophecy doesn't work in Golarion since the death of Aroden). They turn up in every Avellone game I've ever played.

If the game is true to the Adventure Path, it would have dream sequences regardless of whether Avellone was involved or not....

[Stratagemini]

Robert Little wrote:

If the game is true to the Adventure Path, it would have dream sequences regardless of whether Avellone was involved or not....

I forgot about those...

[Vic Wertz]

Robert Little wrote:

Stratagemini wrote:

Actually, Why is Fireball okay but not Grippli? They're both OGL, right?

Nope. If it is in the SRD it is available to use, but if it isn't it is considered D&D IP and not available (other examples would be Beholders or Mind Flayers). That said, I'm surprised that Grippli showed up in the Advanced Race Guide if they were D&D IP.

You're confusing IP (intellectual property) and PI (Product Identity). (Don't worry—it's easy to get confused about this stuff if you don't deal with it professionally!)

Intellectual Property generally refers to an idea or an expression that is legally owned by an entity, usually with the protection of a copyright, a trademark, or a patent. This is a broad legal term used in many industries.

Product Identity is something defined by Wizards of the Coast's Open Game License. The OGL (roughly speaking) breaks game content into two categories: Open Game Content (freely available for use in OGL products) and Product Identity (not freely available). The terms Open Game Content and Product Identity have no meaning outside of the OGL.

The SRD you're referring to is Wizards' System Resource Document, which is a collection of game content that Wizards has made available as Open Game Content. Grippli *are* in the SRD, so we're allowed to use them in the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, which is published under the OGL. Beholders and Mind Flayers are *not* in the SRD, so we can't use them at all.

Since Pathfinder: Kingmaker is not using the OGL, we can't use any of Wizards' intellectual property, even if it appears in the SRD.

So what makes fireball okay to use when gripplis aren't? For that, I will refer you to this post. (Warning: It's even more complicated than this one.)

The bottom line is that you should look for Pathfinder: Kingmaker to feature things that are uniquely Pathfinder, and to exclude things that are uniquely D&D.

[Stratagemini]

So... what you're saying is... Nagaji are likely?

[Stratagemini]

New Update on Mechanics and such!

[CorvusMask]

Sooo wait, does that mean that classic D&D demons and devils are out and new fiends in pathfinder are more likely? .-.

[Gorbacz]

CorvusMask wrote:

Sooo wait, does that mean that classic D&D demons and devils are out and new fiends in pathfinder are more likely? .-.

Depends. If the original devil/demon is taken from real world myth - sure, they're public domain (eg. succubus, erinyes). But if they are actually made up by TSR, not so much.

[Uqbarian]

Thanks for keeping us updated, Stratagemini!

[CorvusMask]

Gorbacz wrote:

CorvusMask wrote:

Sooo wait, does that mean that classic D&D demons and devils are out and new fiends in pathfinder are more likely? .-.

Depends. If the original devil/demon is taken from real world myth - sure, they're public domain (eg. succubus, erinyes). But if they are actually made up by TSR, not so much.

Well, that kind of sucks since most common devils and demons are D&D original. No Glabrezus in this game :(

On happy note, I guess this is good opportunity to use less known pathfinder demons and devils? Or maybe even new ones

[WormysQueue]

Stratagemini wrote:

A couple of the points you make are actually sort of why I'm worried about Chris taking a large role in this.

I must say that I'm totally different on that point. In my opinion, the game can only profit if they allow Chris to "avallone" the heck out of the story. Because any good CRPG is good because of the story, and quite frankly, the story of the Kingmaker AP is fairly average due to it's sandboxy nature.

And while I love me Open Game world RPGs like the Elder Scrolls series, I have never bought that the nature of those games must come at the expense of the story.

But then I'm also someone who, in games I run, tries to find an angle to let his players' characters be the chosen ones(or rather, special ones) basically every time. In my mind, "being just a dude/gal who is out for adventure and looking to do good" would never suffice as motivation to pull all those crazy stunts they have to pull to save the world or at least the day. There needs to be personal motivation beyond that, an that's what I find in basically any Avallone game I remember.

I mean even in Icewind Dale, where you basically create your own party that has no connection with the adventure's story at all the game succeeded in making me care about the game world in a way no Diablo or TES game ever did (and I love those games). And if I take IWD as example of a game that had its focus mostly on tactical combat and still managed to deliver a very good story, I'm fairly convinced that Pathfinder:Kingmaker can also succeed in staying faithful to the source but with an improved storyline.

[CorvusMask]

I do have to say that while I thought companions Avellone wrote for Pillars of Eternity were interesting, I didn't like either of them much <_< I mean, one of them is on purpose meant to be misogynistic jerk nobody likes and one of them has no party interaction at all since her thing is that nobody in party is even capable of understanding who she is or that she is following the party.

But yeah, Avellone is good writer so I don't think there is anything really to worry about, but I will do jokes about his writing style since his is very notable one xD

[Stratagemini]

Wings are still being hashed out currently, but here's what Owlcat has to say about Draconic Bloodline wings at least:

Quote:

Regarding (draconic) wings, our creative director had this to say: "While pure possibilities for actual flight are extremely limited in an isometric environment, we will not include them in the same way as they are in tabletop, we instead may, for example, give a sorcerer an ability to create strong winds and push the enemies away with a flap of his wings or will allow him to reposition himself on the battlefield by flying up and landing elsewhere."

Sooo, you'll get to see them, use them to your advantage in combat, but you probably won't be flying all over the battlefield with them."

[MendedWall12]

Stratagemini wrote:

New Update on Mechanics and such!

FRICK!!! This looks awesome. I'm not joking when I say this is sounding like exactly the CRPG I've wanted to play ever since I started playing Pathfinder at the table. They've even thought of some customization and adjustments that I hadn't thought of, but will make for a great experience. The fact that you can select Core Rules as a difficulty and play the game as close to the actual tabletop rules as is possible with a computer game is beyond awesome. I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY hope this kickstarter gets fully funded, and, if it's getting close to the end, and they are a few hundred dollars shy, I'll probably adjust my pledge adding in more money. :)

Thank you Owlcat!!!

[Oceanshieldwolf]

The German isometric CRPG Sacred had a demon race/class that could fly. Was very handy...

[Stratagemini]

New Article with gameplay Footage

[Stratagemini]

Apparently the Half-Elf Wizard/Rogue/Arcane trickster is Valerie, and the Blonde human girl is "Octavia" a Gorumite fighter.

Also, You can't avoid party members disagreeing with you just cause you don't take them with you. They might decide to screw with your plans at home instead.

[Raynor Cordite]

Made the 95$ pledge! :)

Will the "King" handle be added on the Paizo boards? :)

[Raynor Cordite]

Wow the gameplay looks awesome! can't wait for this. Do they have computer requirements for this yet? (time to get a new laptop at some point anyways...)

[Jurassic Pratt]

Check the FAQs section on the Kickstarter page. They've got some specifications listed.

[Stratagemini]

Raynor Cordite wrote:

Made the 95$ pledge! :)

Will the "King" handle be added on the Paizo boards? :)

Having already asked this, no. It will be added on Owlcat's forums.

Minimal system requirements
Video: Intel HD Graphics 3000
CPU: Intel Celeron 1037U @ 1.80GHz
RAM: 4 Gb
OS: Win 7
Resolution: 1366 x 768

Recommended system requirements
Video: ATI Radeon HD 5770/GeForce GTX 960M
CPU: Intel Core i7 CPU 920 @ 2.67GHz
RAM: 8 Gb
OS: Win 7
Resolution: 1920 x 1080

These specifications are subject to change as the game is still in development, but we're working very hard to deliver a well-optimized game.

[Mirage Wolf]

Seeing this line from the update

*Our AI can help you control the characters in battle.*

I wonder if we can simply choose a character and let the rest of party follow the chosen leader.

Really lazy to control a full party in cRPG,unless it's turn based, then I can play it as a war board game. Much prefer NWN: HOU or DAO style.

[Stratagemini]

Mirage Wolf wrote:

Seeing this line from the update

*Our AI can help you control the characters in battle.*

I wonder if we can simply choose a character and let the rest of party follow the chosen leader.

Really lazy to control a full party in cRPG,unless it's turn based, then I can play it as a war board game. Much prefer NWN: HOU or DAO style.

IT looks like you cam. you can, alternatively, make it more turn based with the auto-pause system.

[Mirage Wolf]

Stratagemini wrote:

Mirage Wolf wrote:

IT looks like you cam. you can, alternatively, make it more turn based with the auto-pause system.

Auto-pause system don't work well though with RTwP games from past experience.

For example, arcanum. You can get more tactical that mode but it makes the game feels frozen, due to no (breathing) animations when auto paused.

Now I just hope there is a choose one character and rest of party controlled by AI mode.

[Vic Wertz]

CorvusMask wrote:

Well, that kind of sucks since most common devils and demons are D&D original.

Many, but fewer than you might think, I suspect.

CorvusMask wrote:

No Glabrezus in this game :(

The Pathfinder Adventure Card Game doesn't use the OGL either, but we do have Treachery Demons.