Pathfinder: Kingmaker Announced!


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Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

They'll have an issue if the one PC is always the ruler - at least if they used the existing Kingdom rules, since that would limit class choice to make a good ruler to a class which prefers the Ruler ability bonus (I forget which ones qualify other than Cha). With full party control, you can have any character be the ruler, but in the game if you play a low Cha fighter and rely on NPCs to deal with interactions, then you're screwed if you have to make your PC the ruler.

EDIT: just checked, and it's just Cha


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I was really hyped when I saw the news, then I saw it has real time with pause system.

Playing none casters in said system seems to be rather uninteresting and none responsive imo.

The only RTwP crpg with okish gameplay was dragon age origin, and it added many mmo-esque cool down abilities for the none casters.

Still waiting for a TOEE sequel with enemies that can grapple...

Dark Archive

Mirage Wolf wrote:

I was really hyped when I saw the news, then I saw it has real time with pause system.

Playing none casters in said system seems to be rather uninteresting and none responsive imo.

The only RTwP crpg with okish gameplay was dragon age origin, and it added many mmo-esque cool down abilities for the none casters.

Still waiting for a TOEE sequel with enemies that can grapple...

Ye, Temple of the Elemental Evil adaption to CRPG by Troika seems to be really unappreciated nowadays for some reason :(

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
CorvusMask wrote:
Mirage Wolf wrote:

I was really hyped when I saw the news, then I saw it has real time with pause system.

Playing none casters in said system seems to be rather uninteresting and none responsive imo.

The only RTwP crpg with okish gameplay was dragon age origin, and it added many mmo-esque cool down abilities for the none casters.

Still waiting for a TOEE sequel with enemies that can grapple...

Ye, Temple of the Elemental Evil adaption to CRPG by Troika seems to be really unappreciated nowadays for some reason :(

The most excellent combat system was completely dragged down by being tied to the terrible module Temple of Elemental Evil.

Sorry to ToEE fans out there, but I promise you if you had fun playing that mod it's because you had a great GM not because of anything inherent to the module.


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CorvusMask wrote:
Mirage Wolf wrote:

I was really hyped when I saw the news, then I saw it has real time with pause system.

Playing none casters in said system seems to be rather uninteresting and none responsive imo.

The only RTwP crpg with okish gameplay was dragon age origin, and it added many mmo-esque cool down abilities for the none casters.

Still waiting for a TOEE sequel with enemies that can grapple...

Ye, Temple of the Elemental Evil adaption to CRPG by Troika seems to be really unappreciated nowadays for some reason :(

Because it was a bug filled, largely unsupported (the 'official patch' was developed by one guy at the studio in his spare time and a bunch of volunteers) mess, that stuck strictly to the dungeon encounters and had close to zero RP elements.


This just makes Temple of Elemental Evil even more impressive.


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CrystalSeas wrote:
SheepishEidolon wrote:
'eh, there's no person I identify myself with'

I'm pretty sure Paizo would not release something that did not have ANY cis-gendered, hetrosexual white males. There's always been at least one. In fact, I can't think of any videogame ever released that did not have at least one such character.

So, as long as everyone gets at least one character they can identify with, it's all good. I'm quite sure you'll be safe and able to find a character to play in this world/space. I can't imagine Paizo completely leaving you out. You might even get to choose between more than one character!

Original Metroid? The only humanoid you see is a woman. The non-boss enemies don't have defined genders, nor do any of them appear white. Of the three named characters that aren't the protagonist, Kraid and Ridly are both very clearly not white, while the Mother Brain is referred to using a female epithet.

For a more recent example, consider Undertale. Both Frisk and Chara are probably agender. Among the non-human characters, the only ones that can really be seen as "white" are Alphys, Toriel, and the skeletons. Toriel is female, while the other three are non-heterosexual. Although, there is a character who appears white, male, cisgendered and might be heterosexual, though you don't get to see

Undertale:
Asriel, Flowey's original identity

until the end.

But Metroid was released at a time when every character took a huge chunk out of the extremely limited storage space available on an NES cartridge, and Undertale was developed almost entirely by one person. If we limit the discussion to games released by established companies when storage was not as much of a premium, you are probably right.

Sovereign Court

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I am happy they picked Kingmaker because, I think the kingdom building part of the game will be a nice break from the combat part of the game. Look forward to seeing/hearing more about this.


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Pan,

I'm just looking forward to doing explorations alongside building my own kingdom.


Hah,I'm having trouble giving Metroid any credit when we saw what happened when they *did* introduce a white male.

Dark Archive

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Voss wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
Mirage Wolf wrote:

I was really hyped when I saw the news, then I saw it has real time with pause system.

Playing none casters in said system seems to be rather uninteresting and none responsive imo.

The only RTwP crpg with okish gameplay was dragon age origin, and it added many mmo-esque cool down abilities for the none casters.

Still waiting for a TOEE sequel with enemies that can grapple...

Ye, Temple of the Elemental Evil adaption to CRPG by Troika seems to be really unappreciated nowadays for some reason :(
Because it was a bug filled, largely unsupported (the 'official patch' was developed by one guy at the studio in his spare time and a bunch of volunteers) mess, that stuck strictly to the dungeon encounters and had close to zero RP elements.

I guess thats the benefit of playing game years after it has been patched :P I got it from gog.

Anyway, I think saying "close to zero RP elements" doesn't work as reason here. I mean, Icewind Dale was still relatively popular from what I remember. And to be honest, while original Baldur's Gate did have rping options, don't remember really anything there that compared to Fallout.

Grand Lodge

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There's a demo-reel playing at PaizoCon. Don't see a playable demo anywhere....


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Very nice to see this coming about in the future and hope it is the best they can make it. Always loved the Baldur's Gate series and if they include the slow down real time mechanics like some other games it should work, but I'd also love the turn based option as well, but its not to be.

Kingmaker or Wrath of the Righteous would have been my 2 top picks, with Hell's Rebels coming in third.

Can't wait to hear about further updates and how it turns out, as well as the final release date.

:)


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RyanH wrote:
There's a demo-reel playing at PaizoCon. Don't see a playable demo anywhere....

The demo is (or was) set up in the Coat Closet room next to the Grand Ballroom.


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What all did we learn from the demo/chat about this? I'm super stoked about this and stuff.


RyanH wrote:
There's a demo-reel playing at PaizoCon. Don't see a playable demo anywhere....

That...is not even a little isometric.


Scott Betts wrote:
RyanH wrote:
There's a demo-reel playing at PaizoCon. Don't see a playable demo anywhere....
That...is not even a little isometric.

Still looks good to me. Wonder when this will come out.

To anyone who played the demo, did you get a chance to make a character or was it premade? If you could make it was there a lot of options?

Grand Lodge

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At risk of reigniting the slightly heated diversity discussion, I don't see the concept art so far as problematic in the least.

3 of the 6 protagonists shown in the first piece of art on the website appear to be women (though admittedly the halfling could be male, it's hard to tell).

As for the bandits, well if you haven't played Kingmaker you might be wondering why there aren't more female brigands. However, if you have you'd know that their leader is a rather depsicable sexist pig and a terrible drunk on top of that, so that's not too surprising.

In the second piece of character art we've got 4 adventurer looking types, 2 of which are women and one of which is a black male. Now I can certainly see the argument that people of color are underrepresented in the very little early concept art that we have so far based on this. However, remember that this area of Golarion (near Brevoy and the River Kingdoms) is populated mostly by the lighter skinned human ethnicities. Based on this it's not too surprising, but it certainly wouldn't hurt to have some more representation in the artwork.

As for the third piece of concept art we have, its just one dude in a bunch of different outfits and hair/beard styles to illustrate that one character model can be customized in a plethora of ways. Considering Paizo's history as a company, I think its safe to say that you will certainly be able to change skin tone as well, thought that isn't shown in this particular piece of art.

Overall, I don't think this art appears to be any cause for alarm considering about half the protagonist characters appear to be women and we have representation for people of color in the art as well. They certainly could have gone further on the latter, but considering the demographic makeup of the region I don't think it's any reason to be jumping up in arms about yet. I for one will be waiting until more artwork is released before I make any sort of judgement on that front.


Artem Lebeda wrote:
Still looks good to me.

I don't disagree, but it is a little concerning that they would describe it as isometric and then only a week later show demo footage of what looks like a fully 3D game.


Jurassic Pratt wrote:

At risk of reigniting the slightly heated diversity discussion, I don't see the concept art so far as problematic in the least.

3 of the 6 protagonists shown in the first piece of art on the website appear to be women (though admittedly the halfling could be male, it's hard to tell).

As for the bandits, well if you haven't played Kingmaker you might be wondering why there aren't more female brigands. However, if you have you'd know that their leader is a rather depsicable sexist pig and a terrible drunk on top of that, so that's not too surprising.

In the second piece of character art we've got 4 adventurer looking types, 2 of which are women and one of which is a black male. Now I can certainly see the argument that people of color are underrepresented in the very little early concept art that we have so far based on this. However, remember that this area of Golarion (near Brevoy and the River Kingdoms) is populated mostly by the lighter skinned human ethnicities. Based on this it's not too surprising, but it certainly wouldn't hurt to have some more representation in the artwork.

As for the third piece of concept art we have, its just one dude in a bunch of different outfits and hair/beard styles to illustrate that one character model can be customized in a plethora of ways. Considering Paizo's history as a company, I think its safe to say that you will certainly be able to change skin tone as well, thought that isn't shown in this particular piece of art.

Overall, I don't think this art appears to be any cause for alarm considering about half the protagonist characters appear to be women and we have representation for people of color in the art as well. They certainly could have gone further on the latter, but considering the demographic makeup of the region I don't think it's any reason to be jumping up in arms about yet. I for one will be waiting until more artwork is released before I make any sort of judgement on that front.

I fully anticipate people of different ethnic make up in the game. My first run through will be, most likely, a fighter guy but I really want to try out other races, classes and genders.

Oh boy, I hope they allow same-sex relationships in this game!


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Scott Betts wrote:
Artem Lebeda wrote:
Still looks good to me.
I don't disagree, but it is a little concerning that they would describe it as isometric and then only a week later show demo footage of a fully 3D game.

Doesn't isometric mean that the world is presented at an angle? Like those old Ravenloft maps where you're looking down at the map but it's not a straight on view but at like a 90 degree angle?


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Artem Lebeda wrote:
Doesn't isometric mean that the world is presented at an angle?

The term "isometric" is a lot more specific than that. It refers to a type of projection - a way to take a three-dimensional reality and display it in two dimensions (a common example of a projection is any flat map of the earth). Isometric projection is a particularly useful sort of projection for a whole host of reasons, and a very close approximation of isometric projection is used in a lot of video games (particularly older games, but even some newer ones like Pillars of Eternity).

Those old Ravenloft maps you're thinking of are isometric. The demo footage of Kingmaker posted earlier, though, is very much not - it appears to be rendered as a three-dimensional environment.

Scarab Sages

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isometric_graphics_in_video_games_and_pixel _art

Sorry it's not linked. Too hard on phone.

Anyway, there is a good definition of the view angle used in vidja games and pixel art that we commonly refer to as isometric.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

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I got to play the demo, and it was a ton of fun. Some things I learned and liked: while combat was pausible real time as stated, it moved more slowly than other games, and felt like there was enough time to actually line up attacks and give orders, instead of pause, give all orders, unpause and try to follow all that happened at once.

Tripping is in, power attack as a setting is in, channelling and spontaneous healing is in. Fighting defensively is in. Super detailed character screens with lots of information. There are feats from many books beyond core. The wizard default character I had had both evocation spell focus and elemental spell focus.

There was some cool example kingdom events, which definitely expanded the story of the campaign, and some of the encounters showed one way they'll be expanding the adventuring storyline in a pretty smart way.

One of the developers also mentioned that a) everyone on the team is playing the tabletop campaign (with 4 different games to accommodate them all), and b) they've talked with all of the Paizo staff who worked on the AP, and have gotten contact information to reach out to the freelancers who worked on it as well.

They also mentioned that they're planning on doing a capstone adventure to take place after the end of the AP (and presumably taking characters up to 20th level, which they separately stated was their plan.)

I asked about mass combat, and they said it would be included as one of the kickstarter stretch goals in some form, but probably not as in depth as the Ultimate Campaign rules. Also, that for that section of the AP they'd add in more content for the PCs to do in adventuring mode like missions behind enemy lines, etc.

There's probably more, if I remember anything else I'll post here.


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JoelF847 wrote:
I got to play the demo,

Were you able to rotate the camera/view?

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

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I didn't try that, sorry. I did pan over the battlefield though. As an alpha slice of the game, I'd think some of the UX might change anyway though. I gave a bit of feedback on the HUD being too layer - too many clicks to get to options I'd want often, and they should make them either easier to get to and/or able to be in a customizable set of quick buttons.


JoelF847 wrote:

I got to play the demo, and it was a ton of fun. Some things I learned and liked: while combat was pausible real time as stated, it moved more slowly than other games, and felt like there was enough time to actually line up attacks and give orders, instead of pause, give all orders, unpause and try to follow all that happened at once.

Tripping is in, power attack as a setting is in, channelling and spontaneous healing is in. Fighting defensively is in. Super detailed character screens with lots of information. There are feats from many books beyond core. The wizard default character I had had both evocation spell focus and elemental spell focus.

There was some cool example kingdom events, which definitely expanded the story of the campaign, and some of the encounters showed one way they'll be expanding the adventuring storyline in a pretty smart way.

One of the developers also mentioned that a) everyone on the team is playing the tabletop campaign (with 4 different games to accommodate them all), and b) they've talked with all of the Paizo staff who worked on the AP, and have gotten contact information to reach out to the freelancers who worked on it as well.

They also mentioned that they're planning on doing a capstone adventure to take place after the end of the AP (and presumably taking characters up to 20th level, which they separately stated was their plan.)

I asked about mass combat, and they said it would be included as one of the kickstarter stretch goals in some form, but probably not as in depth as the Ultimate Campaign rules. Also, that for that section of the AP they'd add in more content for the PCs to do in adventuring mode like missions behind enemy lines, etc.

There's probably more, if I remember anything else I'll post here.

Do you know if character creation will allow different races/classes/etc.?

How about party members? Stuck with just a core group or will you be able to pick more up later and such?

Really, I want all the information. ALL OF IT. lol, really, just any little tidbits are fine right now. And Kickstarter huh? So that's how they plan on getting it past alpha later then?

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

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They stated all core races and classes are in, plus alchemist and inquisitor, so I would assume all are available for the PC during character creation.

There will be playable companions as well as NPCs you can assign to kingdom roles, and they said there will be all the roles from the Ultimate campaign kingdom rules, with enough choices for 2-3 options for each. So with 1 PC and 5 companions at a time, it sounds like there should be around 10-12 companions likely from what I inferred.

Amiri is a beginning companion.

They made it sound like KS was just for stretch goals - that they can get summer 2018 or so release without it, but with it they can hire more and add more stuff.


So it's a Kickstarter, Unity AND RtWP?

Everything they actually announce about this takes my expectations tumbling down.

Grand Lodge

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deuxhero wrote:

So it's a Kickstarter, Unity AND RtWP?

Everything they actually announce about this takes my expectations tumbling down.

I would not say "it's a Kickstarter." As it's got a great amount done. Why I saw at Paizocon was completely playable and they said there was 4 hours of playable content with a bunch more unpolished content already in. Kickstarter is just for more classes and such. If the Kickstarter failed, it'd still released, likely with just core and Kingmaker material though.


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Ooh, a Kickstarter? I'm all over that.
Hoping for a bundle discount so I can get it for my friends, but having more classes added is great.

Thanks for the info, Joel!


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JoelF847 wrote:

I got to play the demo, and it was a ton of fun. Some things I learned and liked: while combat was pausible real time as stated, it moved more slowly than other games, and felt like there was enough time to actually line up attacks and give orders, instead of pause, give all orders, unpause and try to follow all that happened at once.

Tripping is in, power attack as a setting is in, channelling and spontaneous healing is in. Fighting defensively is in. Super detailed character screens with lots of information. There are feats from many books beyond core. The wizard default character I had had both evocation spell focus and elemental spell focus.

There was some cool example kingdom events, which definitely expanded the story of the campaign, and some of the encounters showed one way they'll be expanding the adventuring storyline in a pretty smart way.

One of the developers also mentioned that a) everyone on the team is playing the tabletop campaign (with 4 different games to accommodate them all), and b) they've talked with all of the Paizo staff who worked on the AP, and have gotten contact information to reach out to the freelancers who worked on it as well.

They also mentioned that they're planning on doing a capstone adventure to take place after the end of the AP (and presumably taking characters up to 20th level, which they separately stated was their plan.)

I asked about mass combat, and they said it would be included as one of the kickstarter stretch goals in some form, but probably not as in depth as the Ultimate Campaign rules. Also, that for that section of the AP they'd add in more content for the PCs to do in adventuring mode like missions behind enemy lines, etc.

There's probably more, if I remember anything else I'll post here.

Frick! This sounds like exactly the kind of thing I've been hoping Paizo would do, ever since I started playing Pathfinder rules at the table seven years ago. I mean, I still play Icewindale I and II on my PC because I really like the party building, isometric, pause and execute style of CRPG gameplay. Everything you're telling me makes me want to support this 1000%. I really hope this turns into what I'm hoping it will be.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

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I remembered another detail. They mentioned that part of the kingdom side of things would include diplomats from neighbors, including Brevoy and Irrisen (and some paladins, presumably Mendev/crusaders related). If you make alliances, that could unlock different buildings, as well as possibly different army options if they reach the KS goal of adding in some form of mass combat.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

This is sounding like it could be a really fun game. Has anyone seen any mention of multiplayer or is it going to be a strictly single player campaign?


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JoelF847 wrote:
I remembered another detail. They mentioned that part of the kingdom side of things would include diplomats from neighbors, including Brevoy and Irrisen (and some paladins, presumably Mendev/crusaders related). If you make alliances, that could unlock different buildings, as well as possibly different army options if they reach the KS goal of adding in some form of mass combat.

This is awesome! I wonder what nations you can ally with...

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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RyanH wrote:
Kickstarter is just for more classes and such. If the Kickstarter failed, it'd still released, likely with just core and Kingmaker material though.

Right. Pathfinder: Kingmaker has an existing schedule, an existing scope, and an existing budget, and that budget will allow the developers to achieve that scope on schedule. They've already got a full team of people working on it, and they're committed to doing it regardless of what happens with the Kickstarter.

Success in the Kickstarter will allow them to increase both the budget and the scope on the same schedule. The goals you'll see in the Kickstarter include things like more kingdom-building options, more player options, more companions, more original music, more voiceover, more quests, and so on.


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Vic Wertz wrote:
RyanH wrote:
Kickstarter is just for more classes and such. If the Kickstarter failed, it'd still released, likely with just core and Kingmaker material though.

Right. Pathfinder: Kingmaker has an existing schedule, an existing scope, and an existing budget, and that budget will allow the developers to achieve that scope on schedule. They've already got a full team of people working on it, and they're committed to doing it regardless of what happens with the Kickstarter.

Success in the Kickstarter will allow them to increase both the budget and the scope on the same schedule. The goals you'll see in the Kickstarter include things like more kingdom-building options, more player options, more companions, more original music, more voiceover, more quests, and so on.

TAKE MY MONEY NOW

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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atheral wrote:
This is sounding like it could be a really fun game. Has anyone seen any mention of multiplayer or is it going to be a strictly single player campaign?

It's single-player. They explored the idea of Baldurs' Gate II–style networking, but decided that the huge amount of effort involved would be better spent making a great single-player game.


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Is the view rotatable? Even if it's between, say, four set positions?

I backed the Pillars of Eternity kickstarter, and then never finished playing the game because I discovered I was just not as nostalgic for locked-view isometric gameplay as I thought I was. Lesson learned: If I can't look at a scene from more than one angle, I'm probably not going to enjoy the game even if it's otherwise good.


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Tinalles wrote:

Is the view rotatable? Even if it's between, say, four set positions?

I backed the Pillars of Eternity kickstarter, and then never finished playing the game because I discovered I was just not as nostalgic for locked-view isometric gameplay as I thought I was. Lesson learned: If I can't look at a scene from more than one angle, I'm probably not going to enjoy the game even if it's otherwise good.

Same, except it wasn't the viewpoint that made me walk away from Pillars of Eternity, it was fighting wave upon wave of mobs, one right after the other with seemingly zero narrative elements to them. I mean there are areas of the game where it seems like the writers just got bored, and literally spam-clicked the same mobs of mooks over and over again just to fill up the wonderful maps they'd made with something.

Scarab Sages

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Useful article about the planned Kickstarter. Has some extra details.

I'm probably all in on this.


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Just curious but is the Kickstarter already up?

Grand Lodge

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Nope, last I heard they said early June. So pretty soon.


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Thomas Seitz wrote:
Just curious but is the Kickstarter already up?

Not yet. They seem to be shooting for June 1st or 2nd though so soon!


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Uhm it's June 1st NOW Artem. At least on the East Coast of the US.

Jurassic,

So I should wait then huh?

Grand Lodge

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Hopefully its a short wait. I'm throwing my money at it day 1.


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I am too...if I can find a way to throw money on my computer screen and they take it.

Grand Lodge

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From the end of the linked article...

Update, 1:59 p.m. Pacific: Owlcat first told GamesBeat that the Kickstarter was going live this week, but after the story posted, the studio said the crowdfunding effort would now begin in “early June.”

Scarab Sages

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The impression I got was probably next week. Also the Owlcat guys all seem Russian except Mr. Human Stretch Goal, so using Eastern time may not be accurate.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Vic Wertz wrote:
atheral wrote:
This is sounding like it could be a really fun game. Has anyone seen any mention of multiplayer or is it going to be a strictly single player campaign?
It's single-player. They explored the idea of Baldurs' Gate II–style networking, but decided that the huge amount of effort involved would be better spent making a great single-player game.

Probably just as well, a lot of places sacrifice single player quality for a tacked on multiplayer mode. Hearing that they want to focus on their main game is a reassuring thing.

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