I have a table rule for my game that states when the group levels up I won't ref another game until I have copies of their updated characters.
The reason I instituted this rule at the start of my game was 2 fold:
1) There are players in our group who never do it and will wait till game day to level up their characters. Though they have been playing for more than a decade our usual GM will help them on game day and sometimes the group sits there for hours waiting for one or two people to get leveled.
I personally feel if you have time for the game then you should make time out of game for some of the busy work so the whole table is not waiting during group play time. We only get to play maybe 2 times a month so table time is precious, especially as I only get to GM my game about every 6 weeks, the rest of the time our regular GM runs one of her games.
2) Those same players have almost no system mastery and are nearly constantly using wrong values, be it saves, BAB/attack values, spells, class abilities or what have you, almost universally to their detriment. I like to make sure the whole group is properly leveled and has their gear written down, etc so when we play we don't have to stop and question why the cleric is only rolling 2D6 on her channel at level 10 or why the Paladin saving throws are so bad when they have a 20 charisma, etc.
Note that I gave out a 3 page word doc of the home rules I was using and rules I was changing before characters were made or play started and this was listed in there and everyone agreed. But now I am waiting almost 2+ months for some of the players to get me their updated sheets.
When asked together and individually if they still want to play the game, all the players say they want to play and are having a great time.
Am I being unreasonable with this rule? Any suggestions on how to motivate people to send their sheets in a timely fashion?
That doesn't sound unreasonable to me, though you might want to run a session without the players that are dragging their feet so that everyone else don't end up waiting forever.
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This is a collaborative game which means many things, among them the DM does not need to do all the work himself.
So no, you are not being unreasonable when asking players to do a little work themselves. If they care for the game they should prove it otherwise it feels like someone has to do all the work while others get to enjoy the game.
That doesn't sound unreasonable to me, though you might want to run a session without the players that are dragging their feet so that everyone else don't end up waiting forever.
I would but our normal GM has multiple campaigns running, some have been specifically setup so if a certain player is not available on a game day we play the campaign that player is not in.
This was done to attempt to maximize possible play times. I am available pretty much any weekend but the woman who started our group and who has normally GM'ed has kids and a spouse so we sort of have to revolve around her time schedules for weekends to game. So we have 4 games she runs:
1) One when all 7 people are available
2) One when our remote player from another state is not available (his drive is 11 hours one way)
3) One when the father and daughter team from another city are not available. (Their drive is about 2.5 hours to play).
4) One when the people from both 2 and 3 are not around.
I know it is confusing but it works for us. We will generally play any of the games with one player missing but not if more are.
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Have you considered having a session that is just them updating their characters, encouraging some coordination of abilities, etc. some time could be spent with some cooperative storyspinning and suchlike. The party, assuming they aren't prone to dickish behavior, can help the slow and ensure and encourage pro-party choices.
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It's not an unreasonable expectation, but it may not be the most effective solution. Perhaps they should be making their characters in HeroLab, or you could assign each low-system-mastery player a high-system-mastery buddy (if group numbers are right) to keep their character sheet updated.
Doesn't sound unreasonable. But at that kind of delay I might get together with the players in question and maybe help them along. Mostly to keep things moving. Running without them sounds good but may mess up continuity and out of game relationships.
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It's not unreasonable, but I offer a refinement: if you don't level before game day, you don't level... you play with your previous sheet. If you die because of it, you die because of it.
I make myself available for assistance/advice/review/answers virtually all the time, so if someone has trouble, it's because they don't ask. For players to dedicate some time away from the table to get ready is only fair.
Have you considered having a session that is just them updating their characters, encouraging some coordination of abilities, etc. some time could be spent with some cooperative story spinning and suchlike.
I thought about it but decided not to since it would still be a waste of table time for the people who HAVE doen their characters. I have 3 players who all got me their characters in a very timely fashion and 3 who are holdouts or slow to respond.
Only 2 of the people in the group live near each other (our GM and one other). All the rest live 1.5 or more hours away by drive so getting together is a coordination of schedules and weekends and when we do the vast majority want to play not do bookwork.
I have made it clear on many occasions that if anyone has questions they can call me, Email me or contact me however they like and I will be glad to help. I even setup individual, private dropbox locations for them so they can share their sheets with me that way if they want.
The thing I notice though is that some ppl don't understand how to level characters correctly so they would need help. Not necessarily a bad thing as there's a lot to keep track of, but some ppl have learning disabilities, some ppl just simply can't comprehend how to do it even though they enjoy the game.
Two of the players in my group are dyslexic but they are not the problem people. In fact they are always the first or second to send me their updates and I never have to make corrections on their sheets.
There are two in particular who are chronic problems and I go out of my way to make sure they know I and our normal GM are available to help. All they need to do is ask/take the time.
One of the chronic players is new to the game so I understand but the other has been playing with us for over 12 years and has done at least 5 characters of different classes in that time and still is a problem.
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I don't think you're being unreasonably but I don't think your solution is very good either. If the players don't do their sheet (which it doesn't sound like they do) then you're getting less table time than if you simply let them do it at the table. As such solution is kind of cut your nose off to spite your tongue.
I agree with what someone else mentioned, assign them a buddy if they've been playing for a decade and don't get it yet they aren't going to get it because you tried to strong arm them into it. That is my opinion anyway.
I think your system would be fine for a weekly game. But from what you described, your players might need to be ready next week, or in a month or more. it is difficult to get motivated to work on a character that you may not even play for several weeks.
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I personally do what Anguish suggests -- if you aren't fully leveled before the session, you haven't leveled up yet (party is at level X, you're at X - 1). I'm not going to make encounters any easier, and you are not allowed to work on the level up during the session itself. This way everyone still gets a chance to play, and the player who didn't level yet can still contribute as well as they can. I require that all of my players get me all of the level-up details a day before the session (we play on Sunday noon, so I have it due on Saturday noon). This gives me time to audit the choices to ensure they are valid and also fit within the world-flavor and campaign (offering suggestions for alternatives should something fail this test).
I try to wrap up sessions where characters level up a bit early so that the players have an hour or so of "session time" to discuss what leveling up options they're taking. Some avail themselves of this, others leave early and I follow up with them on Skype.
If a player hasn't leveled in 2+ months, ask them what's going on. Maybe they aren't sure of how to level up, and need someone to help walk them through it. Maybe they have analysis paralysis and would prefer just playing pre-gens (so you level up for them, basically -- I'd try to shy away from this though or at least pawn it off on a different player as I have enough things to do already as GM). If none of those apply, they may just not be a great fit for Pathfinder as a system, so nicely ask them to leave and say you'll keep them in mind for whenever someone runs a less crunchy system (if you enjoy playing with them, that is).
I assume you made up three pages of rules because you thought that those rules would make your games more fun.
If they aren't making your games more fun, then you need to change your rules.
The reality is that those people don't level up their characters when they are not with the gaming group. It sounds like the motivation they need is to be with their friends and have fun while they update the character sheets.
You can make all the rules you want, but your rules don't seem to be changing reality. So instead of fighting how things actually work, create a situation where how-things-work gets you the outcome you were hoping for when you wrote three pages of rules.
Would someone who DOES have system mastery be willing to run a 'level up' session at a time other than your normal gaming time, so that the people who aren't able to level up by themselves, get a social event that results in accurate, on-level, character sheets?
For some people "hanging out with my gaming group while we talk about and work on character sheets" may actually be as important to them as encounters and storytelling. They may consider that "gaming" and "having fun".
I have a table rule for my game that states when the group levels up I won't ref another game until I have copies of their updated characters.
The reason I instituted this rule at the start of my game was 2 fold:
1) There are players in our group who never do it and will wait till game day to level up their characters. Though they have been playing for more than a decade our usual GM will help them on game day and sometimes the group sits there for hours waiting for one or two people to get leveled.
I personally feel if you have time for the game then you should make time out of game for some of the busy work so the whole table is not waiting during group play time. We only get to play maybe 2 times a month so table time is precious, especially as I only get to GM my game about every 6 weeks, the rest of the time our regular GM runs one of her games.
2) Those same players have almost no system mastery and are nearly constantly using wrong values, be it saves, BAB/attack values, spells, class abilities or what have you, almost universally to their detriment. I like to make sure the whole group is properly leveled and has their gear written down, etc so when we play we don't have to stop and question why the cleric is only rolling 2D6 on her channel at level 10 or why the Paladin saving throws are so bad when they have a 20 charisma, etc.
Note that I gave out a 3 page word doc of the home rules I was using and rules I was changing before characters were made or play started and this was listed in there and everyone agreed. But now I am waiting almost 2+ months for some of the players to get me their updated sheets.
When asked together and individually if they still want to play the game, all the players say they want to play and are having a great time.
Am I being unreasonable with this rule? Any suggestions on how to motivate people to send their sheets in a timely fashion?
I don't think this is unreasonable at all. Remember that not only does this make the players become more familiar with their class (and character), it serves as an audit for you, the GM, to go through with the players to see if they're leveling up correctly. Unfortunately, it may not eliminate the problem you're having (too much time spent leveling up). It will help, but it won't certainly eliminate the problem. In extreme cases, it may even make the problem worse.
At our group, even when we have players who take their sheets home to level up themselves, we will have character levels who take forever because there are murky options being taken (which need GM FIAT clarification, which can take hours if they are trying to look for official rulings), or the GM vetoes certain options that the PCs weren't aware of being illegal at the table, and then they need time to reconfigure a new option for GM approval. So, with something like this, YMMV.
However, keep in mind that if the players are enjoying leveling up and stuff at the table, then that means you, as a GM, are succeeding at your goal (which is to make the players have fun at your table). So, while your houserule isn't unreasonable to us, it may be unreasonable to the other players, who value the time you take to level them up at the table over their own time to level up themselves (which, as you point out, are apparently done incorrectly a lot of the time).
At the end of the day, this really boils down to you bringing up these issues to your players, and seeing if they care about having less playtime due to leveling up taking a larger portion of time.
Another solution, if I may suggest, is to reduce the experience gain (i.e. use a slower experience progression) so as to cut down on the amount of times your characters level up, meaning you're adding more game time without really cutting out the leveling up aspects that the players seem to accept.
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I feel like "players don't bother to work on their character sheets in between sessions and instead wait for the GM to help them" stands a reasonable chance of being "I honestly don't know what I'm doing, I recognize that I ought to know by now, but I would rather be perceived as unmotivated than ignorant."
I have to wonder if setting ultimatums is the right idea when a better alternative is "teaching a man to fish" as it were. But honestly, GM is the hard job so any request by the GM that doesn't really put anybody out is probably within bounds.
Maybe you should just let them play at their old level.
You know, explain to them that they won't be at that much of a disadvantage.
How much do your house rules impact the character creation process? I ask because that may be part of the problem. Not all, but a part. I ran into this when I had a bunch of house rules for a 2nd Ed game I was running. The players just didn't feel like looking through so many books and then also having to reference my house rules to see if anything affected their options.
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You got two people who haven't levelled yet?
Invite them over for the explicit purpose of levelling their characters, and then play board games/watch a movie or something.
Next time it's time for level up plan the session so that the first hour and a half will be levelling up PCs and the rest is session time.
Some groups are good at homework, some are bad.
I have a couple of questions Dark. The first is can the players who are slow to adjust their characters able to contact you in between games? If they can suggest they do so. It may be a case of having questions but not getting answers. It could be house rules are different then book rules. The second what are the problem players playing? A third in game how do they play? There maybe other issues at work you might be missing. Twice a month is different then once a week. They are committed to playing with a drive time of over an hour and still coming. Maybe they don't care for your campaign or style. I don't know and I'm not saying this is the case at all. It could be they are procrastinators, like myself. Still I don't think what you are asking is unreasonable at all especially since the travel time and the limited game time you have,
This is a very good point. One of our players works construction and puts in a lot of overtime. His wife lives in another state and he tries to visit her when he can. Then he has an hour drive to the game. He has very little free time to work on his character.
Given the distances and constraints you may want to encourage your players to keep a digital copy of their character sheet, something like a Google doc they can link you.
I assume you made up three pages of rules because you thought that those rules would make your games more fun. If they aren't making your games more fun, then you need to change your rules.
It is not the home rules impacting play. I have asked and everyone likes them and they are in no way impacting character level ups. 90% of those 3 pages are just some high level spell adjustments or deletions for the home brew world I am running and a listing of what books or options from books allowed in the game. None of the changes alter character level up from standard.
Since they are just becoming 3rd level none of those spell adjustments will even affect them yet and won't for many levels.
Given the distances and constraints you may want to encourage your players to keep a digital copy of their character sheet, something like a Google doc they can link you.
I provided everyone with a fillable Pathfinder character sheet PDF and stored the blank form and the filled forms for their characters on Dropbox drives that only the player and I can see. I welcome them sending me emails or ANY communication and have even told them I will fill the forms out for them if they give me the information.
The group as a whole has been using digital copies for over a decade now.
How much do your house rules impact the character creation process?
Minimally. Character creation was 99% straight up pathfinder rules. I just explicitly spelled out any changes or custom races or rules I was using, like options from Unchained and such. I like my players to have full disclosure before play and digital and hard reference copies of my rules so they are not surprised or blindsided during play.
That said my changes are very minimal to Pathfinder core and in no way affect leveling up, just level 1 and even that, very slightly.
If the players don't do their sheet (which it doesn't sound like they do) then you're getting less table time than if you simply let them do it at the table. As such solution is kind of cut your nose off to spite your tongue.
I agree with what someone else mentioned, assign them a buddy if they've been playing for a decade and don't get it yet they aren't going to get it because you tried to strong arm them into it. That is my opinion anyway.
Well we don't get less table time. The number of games we play is a set amount per year. If we don't play my game we play one of the other ones the regular GM runs. We figure out what weekends we can play based on our regular GM's schedule and then we plan about 3 months ahead to see who is available on those weekends. The people available determine what game gets played. If all 7 players are available we play my game or one other, they get to choose. It has been 50/50 so far in those situations (which is fine for me and our regular GM).
I should state we have 7 people who play and only 2-3 that are problems with getting me characters. All the players continue to say they like my game but the 4 who are not part of this particular problem have all stated to me they hate to sit at a game and wait for the others to level up. It was an issue observed in our normal GM's game and one I was trying to head off in mine.
Another solution, if I may suggest, is to reduce the experience gain (i.e. use a slower experience progression) so as to cut down on the amount of times your characters level up, meaning you're adding more game time without really cutting out the leveling up aspects that the players seem to accept.
I am using medium track now and their advancement has been appropriate to the campaign I am running. It is a home brew world and adventure and so far everything at table has gone flawlessly. Really the only issue has been this getting updated sheet thing. It happened when they hit level 2 and now again at level 3 and the same folks are the problem. I have spoken to the collected players a couple times asking for updated sheets and sent those who haven't private email reminders every 2-3 weeks.
They made level 3 at the end of last session (a littel over 2 months ago now) and it is their 3rd level sheets I am waiting on. The hilarious thing is one of the people who complains the MOST about not leveling up fast enough is one of the people who still has not gotten me their sheet. She prefers to run and be in 'higher level/powered games' and was miffed that I was starting folks at level 1.
Thanks everyone for your feedback. It is nice to see that I am not being overly unreasonable. I am thinking that I will just let people play whatever sheet they have and not delay reffing any more. If they are not leveled up then they are not.
What do people think about giving a 10% of level XP bonus to whoever gets me their updated sheets within 2 weeks? 2 weeks should be more than enough time for even the busiest person to find 90 minutes to level their character at some point.
I'd say giving them a 10% gold bonus would be more incentive than giving them an XP bonus. Why would your slowpokes want more XP?
Giving individual players more XP and thus making some level up before others never goes well imo.
Yeah but the ones leveling up more are the ones who get me their sheets on time so that won't be a huge problem for me at least.
The ones who would have less XP would level slower and not have to update sheets as fast.
I'd say giving them a 10% gold bonus would be more incentive than giving them an XP bonus. Why would your slowpokes want more XP?
The problem is while I can control the gold going into the game the players control how it is split so that wouldn't work.
I have a couple of questions Dark. The first is can the players who are slow to adjust their characters able to contact you in between games? If they can suggest they do so. It may be a case of having questions but not getting answers. It could be house rules are different then book rules. The second what are the problem players playing? A third in game how do they play? There maybe other issues at work you might be missing. Twice a month is different then once a week. They are committed to playing with a drive time of over an hour and still coming. Maybe they don't care for your campaign or style. I don't know and I'm not saying this is the case at all. It could be they are procrastinators, like myself. Still I don't think what you are asking is unreasonable at all especially since the travel time and the limited game time you have,
I am going to assume this was meant for me? Yes, all the players have my email address and phone number and know how to get to my home should they want to do that and I have an always available policy for them.
The late characters are Cleric, Hunter and Unchained Rogue. The cleric has played one before to level 20+. The hunter is playing the class for the first time but is our normal ref and extremely familiar with rules and character building (she has a book with 200+ NPCS stated up she made for her game). The Rogue player is new to RPGing (only about 2 years now and this is only her second character) but her dad is one of the other players and she lives local to me so can contact me or her dad at any time should she want.
At table, everything runs smoothly. ALL players have said they are having fun, have no problem with the homes rules and that they want to play.
The problem is while I can control the gold going into the game the players control how it is split so that wouldn't work.
Uh, if you say Character A gets +100 gold for getting her sheet in before the end of two weeks, then Character A has to split that gold with everyone else?
The problem is while I can control the gold going into the game the players control how it is split so that wouldn't work.Uh, if you say Character A gets +100 gold for getting her sheet in before the end of two weeks, then Character A has to split that gold with everyone else?
I could do that I guess but I don't like in game items or currency just showing up for no in game reason. Personal preference I guess.
If I would be to give a reward it would have to not be transferable in any way to another character which is why I though of XP or maybe Hero Points as someone else mentioned (which I do use in my game).
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why I though of XP or maybe Hero Points as someone else mentioned (which I do use in my game).
The point is not to select a reward that makes sense to you.
If you want to change someone's behavior with a reward, you have to offer something that makes them want to change their behavior.
If what you offer isn't important to them (or their character) then it isn't going to motivate them to change.
So, what would lure these characters (or their players) into doing something they don't otherwise want to do?
From your description, these are players who don't work alone, but really enjoy working on their characters with others in the group. If that's the case, then there's very little you can do to change their desire for doing their homework with a study group instead of stuck alone in their room.
I also suspect that in-game rewards aren't very powerful when what they want is the company of other people. If you punish them by making them play at the previous level, and offer rewards that are only rewarding for the already-compliant players, what you'll have is a group that gets split further and further with a few much-lower level characters and a few much more powerful characters\
Notice that they're perfectly fine with playing characters with wrong values, incomplete information, etc.
when we play we don't have to stop and question why the cleric is only rolling 2D6 on her channel at level 10 or why the Paladin saving throws are so bad when they have a 20 charisma, etc.
It's not that you're being unreasonable, but that your perfectly reasonable expectations don't match the reality of your gaming group. If this has been going on for years, why do you think it will change now?
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I have a table rule for my game that states when the group levels up I won't ref another game until I have copies of their updated characters.
The reason I instituted this rule at the start of my game was 2 fold:
1) There are players in our group who never do it and will wait till game day to level up their characters. Though they have been playing for more than a decade our usual GM will help them on game day and sometimes the group sits there for hours waiting for one or two people to get leveled.
I personally feel if you have time for the game then you should make time out of game for some of the busy work so the whole table is not waiting during group play time. We only get to play maybe 2 times a month so table time is precious, especially as I only get to GM my game about every 6 weeks, the rest of the time our regular GM runs one of her games.
2) Those same players have almost no system mastery and are nearly constantly using wrong values, be it saves, BAB/attack values, spells, class abilities or what have you, almost universally to their detriment. I like to make sure the whole group is properly leveled and has their gear written down, etc so when we play we don't have to stop and question why the cleric is only rolling 2D6 on her channel at level 10 or why the Paladin saving throws are so bad when they have a 20 charisma, etc.
Note that I gave out a 3 page word doc of the home rules I was using and rules I was changing before characters were made or play started and this was listed in there and everyone agreed. But now I am waiting almost 2+ months for some of the players to get me their updated sheets.
When asked together and individually if they still want to play the game, all the players say they want to play and are having a great time.
Am I being unreasonable with this rule? Any suggestions on how to motivate people to send their sheets in a timely fashion?
You aren't wrong... but you are being ineffective. Obviously at this point even you agree that your system doesn't work. The problem players still haven't turned sheets in after 2 months and have no plans to. They are waiting for you to drop the issue.
If you have fun with these players and they aren't cheating (figuring values wrong to get a benefit) then I would drop it. If they are playing with under powered characters the party will call them on it. And if they don't all they care about is probably having a good time.
My advice is to stop worrying about it. As long as they aren't cheating it's not your problem.
There is some programs on the internet that might help your group out too. Character sheet manager thingamabobs and etc.
The best solution is probably to just make em play with the unleveled character. Eventually they will get the hint that they have to do it out of session if they want to level up.
I agree with this.
Also, hours? How? And they still get it wrong? [/mind blown]
I mean, I could see 15-30 minutes for a spellcaster, 10-20 for a martial. But hours? Plural? Just ... what?
The best solution is probably to just make em play with the unleveled character. Eventually they will get the hint that they have to do it out of session if they want to level up.I agree with this.
Also, hours? How? And they still get it wrong? [/mind blown]
I mean, I could see 15-30 minutes for a spellcaster, 10-20 for a martial. But hours? Plural? Just ... what?
'
I had a player like that he would read through every option every time he leveled. He was a slow mover anyways and he would pretty well read through the books all over again every time he leveled up. plus he wouldn't mark anything until he had every possible option looked through.
At the end of a game session where they level up, schedule a time to talk through leveling their character up on the phone. Then walk them through the questions you need to know to level their character, then either do it yourself or take notes so that if they don't do it on their own you can speed up the table process by saying things like, "Well, you said that you wanted to select these spells and take Spell Focus, so we've got that settled..."
I will say that your players being irritated is absolutely reasonable. I hate it when my wife does this leveling at the table business because it's so disrespectful of other players' time and a rushed process is so likely to result in suboptimal choices (either by power or RP) that harm the other players. Fortunately, the last time this happened, two of the other three players also didn't have their PCs ready, so I was able to let it go. Me and the ready player just helped people with their character building.
As for why? Part of it is a habit of procrastination. Part of it is that building characters and that kind of research aren't something she particularly enjoys--she'll research the hell out of RP options, however. Part of it is choice paralysis--too many options.
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Well, now that this is has been talked out some, it doesn't sound like you are being unreasonable, but you are getting yourself wrapped around the axle trying to get some of your players on board with your expectations. You are working too hard. Don't penalize the player with experience penalties, just allow them to keep playing their unadvanced characters until they are ready to advance them by sending you the updates. You might want to be sure they are comfortable and proficient with Dropbox and your technical channels. If this is an issue, perhaps your wonks can step up.
Some of the approaches suggested in the thread will likely drive off your problem players if that is your entent.
You know, the GM doesn't even have to do anything, and honestly, imposing these current rules may create more problems than it fixes. To reiterate what I said before:
...if the players are enjoying leveling up and stuff at the table, then that means you, as a GM, are succeeding at your goal (which is to make the players have fun at your table).
So really, while the OP can impose these expectations, it can create an unfun table (and by relation, gaming experience). Leveling up, to the players, is part of the fun of the game, so I'd say leave it as it is.
Also, as I've said before, even if they do work on their sheets on their own time, the sheets are still going to have to be presented to the GM, which means the GM will have to audit their choices anyway, and if any illegal choices are made, will be brought up either outside the table (which can create frustrations for the players), and if not at that point, then of course it'd be at the table, in which case you're back at Square 1 with "Leveling Up at the Table."
Also if not playing your game means they get to play someone else's game who're they're happy to play then I don't see how just not letting people play your game will incentivise them doing something they haven't learned to do with a Decade of time to learn it.
Yeah I think your right. I'll just schedule games and what they bring they play. I will just state that leveling up characters will not be done during game time and that new leveled copies must be sent to me for checking.
If the slackers get killed over and over because they have wrong values or do not update that is on them.
Thanks everyone for the responses.