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If the invisible familiar is big enough that it does threaten squares (Small-size or larger), than RAW the answer is yes. Threatening a square means that you are able to make melee attacks into that square, and it doesn't require that opponents be aware of that fact.
They threaten, they flank, you get the bonus and can sneak attack and stuff. (Assuming the familiar is big enough to threaten normally, of course.) Designer comment to that effect.
Try not to worry about why it works, it's not because of realism!
Sweet, thanks. Man, I can't believe you even have a link specific to the designer's comment.
Heh. I searched the Rules Forum for "invisible flank" and that turned up (scroll down past the dragon stuff and you'll see it mentioned as "dev confirming"). This is the kind of question Rules people are prone to fight about, so I thought it best to get that in preemptively.
Knowing one is being flanked is not what creates the condition of flanking, the act of flanking does. You're misreading the game in this way. Combat in D&D has always dealt in abstracts.
There is more happening each round than is played out, with elements boiled down to abstracts to make combat tangible to us. Armor class. Hit points. Battle grids.
Combat involves constant jostling for position, bumping, near misses, stumbles and more. The RPG calls it flanking to give a bonus and make it simple.
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I wouldn't even bother trying to come up with a reason why it works, you likely won't be able to satisfy everyone. ;)
The Flanking Fairy darts hither and thither and bestows flanking bonuses and options for sneak attacks on good little girls and boys and monsters who set themselves up in combat in a manner pleasing to her. And that's that.
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I remember reading on these forums (I forget where), that an illusionary creature you believe to be real does not provide flanking (gnome-specific feats notwithstanding), but an invisible creature of whom you aren't aware does.
So I'd say it's due to the flankers, and not the target.
"You're ready for her sneak attack, but your trousers snag on a branch or something, giving your opponent the hesitation she needs for her sap to swing up and into your chin."
Or something to that effect.
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It would seem flanking is based on the (in game) objective reality of the flankers, not the subjective reality of the flankee. If the flankers are really there then flanking happens, even if the flankee doesn't know. And if the flankers aren't really there then flanking doesn't happen even if the flankee thinks it does.
Yeah. One of those things. At least it's systematic.
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This is one of those weird threads where we have one simple question, then ten consecutive posts all giving the same answer :)
It would seem flanking is based on the (in game) objective reality of the flankers, not the subjective reality of the flankee. If the flankers are really there then flanking happens, even if the flankee doesn't know. And if the flankers aren't really there then flanking doesn't happen even if the flankee thinks it does.
Yeah. One of those things. At least it's systematic.
Yeah, it does seem a bit silly that is how it works, but the game uses the objective situation and not the subjective understanding of individual characters.
The Flanking Fairy darts hither and thither and bestows flanking bonuses and options for sneak attacks on good little girls and boys and monsters who set themselves up in combat in a manner pleasing to her. And that's that.
Yep. That checks out.
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I would rule that the target knows they are being flanked, so doing this at least gives away the existence of the invisible creature, and likely its position.
"Hey, I just got sneak-attacked by a guy in plain sight. There's something fishy here..."
I dunno if the victim precisely knows that he was flanked because of an invisible creature or because the attacker had some obscure ability to set up flanks. Such as Gang Up, Press Against The Wall or Pack Flanking.
But he definitely would notice something's up.
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^-^
I believe you should go to the Arcanarium and read Determinacy and Quantum Threat.
If the invisible familiar is big enough that it does threaten squares (Small-size or larger), than RAW the answer is yes. Threatening a square means that you are able to make melee attacks into that square, and it doesn't require that opponents be aware of that fact.
Couldn't a tiny or diminutive enter the square and flank also? If you have concealment you do not provoke AoO, so no penalty for entering the square. Or arm them with a reach weapon.
no, tiny creatures can't flank or provide flanking if they are in the enemies square.
Tiny with reach doesn't let them attack outside of their square. reach weapons double your reach. 0 x2 is still 0 ft reach.
The mouser swashbuckler has a special ability that let them flank inside an enemies square. It wouldn't be a special ability if it worked normally.
Also the rules for flank say you need to be on opposite sides and to draw from center's of squares. If you were to follow those rules to decide flanking you'd see that being in the same square doesn't meet those requirements.
no, tiny creatures can't flank or provide flanking if they are in the enemies square.
Tiny with reach doesn't let them attack outside of their square. reach weapons double your reach. 0 x2 is still 0 ft reach.
That's why they use whips get a good 15ft no matter the size.
That's why they use whips get a good 15ft no matter the size.no, tiny creatures can't flank or provide flanking if they are in the enemies square.
Tiny with reach doesn't let them attack outside of their square. reach weapons double your reach. 0 x2 is still 0 ft reach.
You have to take multiple feats to threaten with a whip, and arguably the reach of a whip should change depending on the user's size. The rules were written assuming small/medium PCs. There is no reason to say a tiny creature can still attack at 15ft with a whip.
You have to take multiple feats to threaten with a whip, and arguably the reach of a whip should change depending on the user's size. The rules were written assuming small/medium PCs. There is no reason to say a tiny creature can still attack at 15ft with a whip.That's why they use whips get a good 15ft no matter the size.no, tiny creatures can't flank or provide flanking if they are in the enemies square.
Tiny with reach doesn't let them attack outside of their square. reach weapons double your reach. 0 x2 is still 0 ft reach.
Trust me i know it should be we have no definite rules on the issue and have had several threads on it. Like much of the sizing rules after small-large things get weird.
You have to take multiple feats to threaten with a whip, and arguably the reach of a whip should change depending on the user's size. The rules were written assuming small/medium PCs. There is no reason to say a tiny creature can still attack at 15ft with a whip.That's why they use whips get a good 15ft no matter the size.no, tiny creatures can't flank or provide flanking if they are in the enemies square.
Tiny with reach doesn't let them attack outside of their square. reach weapons double your reach. 0 x2 is still 0 ft reach.
I agree, unfortunately there's "evidence" of a large enemy using a whip and only having 15ft reach. And as far as I'm aware there's no tiny person using a whip yet so it's hard-er to justify reducing whip length.
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Like those poor gargantuan monsters doing the same free 5' step as normal sized characters?
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It would seem flanking is based on the (in game) objective reality of the flankers, not the subjective reality of the flankee. If the flankers are really there then flanking happens, even if the flankee doesn't know. And if the flankers aren't really there then flanking doesn't happen even if the flankee thinks it does.
Yeah. One of those things. At least it's systematic.
Even to the extreme of the invisible flanker may be unknown to both the flanked creature as well as the visible flanker. The Visible Flanker still gets a strange +2 to attack and the option to deal sneak attack damage. Even though they themselves do not see how they are able to utilize their skills to such effect in this moment.
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Bogus as it may seem, its RAW. House rule time.
Yeah, I house rule it that you're flanked if you have reason to believe there's someone flanking you. So an illusion can flank you, and an invisible guy can flank you by giving away his position. And I house rule it that a tiny character gets 5 foot reach with a reach weapon, and that whips have different reach for different sizes of character. This whole thread seems to be listing of rules I don't enforce.
no, tiny creatures can't flank or provide flanking if they are in the enemies square.
Tiny with reach doesn't let them attack outside of their square. reach weapons double your reach. 0 x2 is still 0 ft reach.
This again...Seriously, Chess Pwn, you need to stop spouting this fact without evidence.
Reach for a tiny creature is 2.5 feet, equal to their own size, which gets rounded down to 0. If you want any evidence of this in effect, there is a creature in the recent Strange Aeons adventure which highlights this fact.
Of course, I think you'll just say that adventures aren't rules text or clarifications, and that authors have gotten things wrong before, which I won't dispute the latter half, but I'd take published material over baseless assumptions any day.
Sorry for the derail here, folks, but I think we can all agree invisibility is weird, but I just wanted to say something about this.
Actually, hold up a second, I'm going to refute my own evidence. Long limb improves reach by a flat amount. In this case by 5 feet. So it doesn't really work for my argument, like, at all.
I still seriously doubt that is how tiny creatures reach actually works, but at this point I can't prove it myself. Soz. Egg on my face.
Actually, hold up a second, I'm going to refute my own evidence. Long limb improves reach by a flat amount. In this case by 5 feet. So it doesn't really work for my argument, like, at all.
I still seriously doubt that is how tiny creatures reach actually works, but at this point I can't prove it myself. Soz. Egg on my face.
The main issues is the lack of scaling realistically a Tiny reach weapon probably doesn't let it attack 5ft out but it should still help the Tiny creature vs a Tiny creature without a reach weapon. Sadly do to lack of scaling it doesn't.
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Yup, an invisible flanker that does nothing but stealthily hide in a square, undetected by both enemy and ally, provides a flanking bonus.
A high level illusion of a fighter that is believed by both the enemey and the ally does not.
Sometimes Pathfinder is a strange game.
Personally, and I know it's a house rule, I'd rule that a "foe" who absolutely refuses to participate in the combat isn't actually threatening anything. Standing absolutely motionless, invisible, and not making actions or AoOs doesn't actually sound like a combatant to me. If you're threatening squares it shows a willingness to break stealth to take an AoO.
From the T-Rex's mouth:
Game speak for "DOUBLE" doesn't really mean "twice as much." A creature that's Tiny and has a reach of 0 feet who uses a reach weapon would basically go up to the next stage of reach: 5 feet. Something smaller than Tiny would, at the most, go up to Tiny's level of reach—weapons smaller than those wielded by Tiny creatures, therefore, never have reach.
So then do Large creatures only get 15ft out of a reach weapon not 20ft since huge is the next step up and has 15ft reach?
So then do Large creatures only get 15ft out of a reach weapon not 20ft since huge is the next step up and has 15ft reach?
Yup.
Personally, and I know it's a house rule, I'd rule that a "foe" who absolutely refuses to participate in the combat isn't actually threatening anything. Standing absolutely motionless, invisible, and not making actions or AoOs doesn't actually sound like a combatant to me. If you're threatening squares it shows a willingness to break stealth to take an AoO.Yup, an invisible flanker that does nothing but stealthily hide in a square, undetected by both enemy and ally, provides a flanking bonus.
A high level illusion of a fighter that is believed by both the enemey and the ally does not.
Sometimes Pathfinder is a strange game.
Not a house rule. e.g, allies don't provide flank to their allies for enemies who happen to position themselves on the other side.
...if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.
If you don't consider the person in the middle an enemy, then you don't provide flanking against them.
This again...Seriously, Chess Pwn, you need to stop spouting this fact without evidence.no, tiny creatures can't flank or provide flanking if they are in the enemies square.
Tiny with reach doesn't let them attack outside of their square. reach weapons double your reach. 0 x2 is still 0 ft reach.
The evidence is that there's no counter evidence. Most tiny creatures list that they have 0 reach. Nothing says tiny have 2.5 reach that rounds down. So any creature that has 2.5 reach could be considered special since they are so rare. I'd love to have some evidence to prove that tiny can have reach, would make a planned build work so much easier, But I haven't yet seen anything to counter that tiny with reach is still 0.
JJ's quote doesn't count. He's repeatedly told us not to use him for actual rules quotes because he's just sharing how he'd rule it, and the PDT have said that his posts (along with all others) aren't meant to be rules defining.
Thus doubling should use the definition that most people would think of and currently use for all sized larger than medium that double is x2. I'm pretty sure in stat blocks there's bound to be a large+ creatures with a reach weapon having x2 reach. Which would be evidence against JJ.
Call me old (even closed) minded, but I've never liked the idea of a tiny pixie charging onward a 'giant' medium creature and having the normal melee options that are weapon reach and 5' step.
An army of pixies swarming you feels more... plausible, than just a tiny nuisance with a stick.
Even magic should be into consideration. A 3.5 styled pixie glaivelock (praised be PF for not making any similar class) OTKing the big badass dragon in one round feels wrong on so many levels.
This is personal houserule based on other fantasy games/novels/etc. Very often powerful beings of the same race are bigger for some unknown reason (only the Fairy King from berserk comes to mind right now). And PCs are supposed to be stronger than the average.
A tiny creature has a heigh of 1.1' to 2'
A small creature goes from 2.1' to 4'
A menial difference in size suddenly means a lot in terms of game mechanics. To me it's by far more clean rulewise a small 10 lvl Sorceress Fairy Queen npc or Garlandel the Vagrant with 5 lvls on Swasbuckler.
On a side note, there was a class in 3.5 with an illussionary familiar that granted flank bonus. So houseruling that a beliavable illusion can provide flank while a non moving undetected invisible creature does not feels more fair to me.
My 2 cents, a nice weekend to everyone!
I wouldn't even bother trying to come up with a reason why it works, you likely won't be able to satisfy everyone. ;)The Flanking Fairy darts hither and thither and bestows flanking bonuses and options for sneak attacks on good little girls and boys and monsters who set themselves up in combat in a manner pleasing to her. And that's that.
[blush]
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[blush]I wouldn't even bother trying to come up with a reason why it works, you likely won't be able to satisfy everyone. ;)The Flanking Fairy darts hither and thither and bestows flanking bonuses and options for sneak attacks on good little girls and boys and monsters who set themselves up in combat in a manner pleasing to her. And that's that.
Yes! The final proof that she is real!
Now where'd I put that butterfly net....