"You make yourself – including clothing, armor, weapons, and equipment – look different. You can seem 1 foot shorter or taller, thin, fat, or in between. You cannot change your creature type (although you can appear as another subtype). Otherwise, the extent of the apparent change is up to you. You could add or obscure a minor feature or look like an entirely different person or gender."
My reading of this is that you can select a creature subtype that is in the small to medium size range (assuming their max/min height range overlaps with your height +/- 1 foot), and as that creature you can appear as either one that looks similar to yourself or as a completely different individual.
From my reading there don't appear to be any limitations on the natural characteristics of the subtype selected, as the only limiting phrases are "You cannot change your creature type" and "You can seem 1 foot shorter or taller".
However when looking this spell up many people seem to insist that you can only create permutations based on your physical form (referencing the +/- 1 foot limitation I assume), stating that final shape too different from your own is apparently outside of the spell's scope. However, this limitation would immediately remove many races from being able to use this spell or being targets for the use of this spell. It would also clash with entities like Medusa being designed to disguise their snake hair using their sla Disguise Self castings to pass as a normal humanoid.
Since this isn't directly stated I want to know if there is an Official limitation, and if so where the line is drawn (on a scale going sharp teeth, claws, tentacle arms, tails, extra arms, wings, etc ideally), or whether this limitation is just a result of being how the spell is "generally" run but not an actual hard requirement.
I can't give you a hard and fast official rule. I can only comment on my own perspective. I don't think the issue is claws, tails, wings, or hair (snakes or otherwise). I think it is the extent of the change. And that will always fall to GM interpretation.
What is or isn't a minor feature kind of depends. Are a catfolk's claws as obvious or obtrusive or visible as an owlbear's? A strix's wingspan is about 12 feet across. Some GMs might rule that their wings aren't a 'minor' feature, meaning they can't hide them even if they look like an elf or human (they'd still have wings, though minor features of the wings might still be changeable, like feather-type or coloration). They might be perfectly fine with allowing a different winged race with much smaller or less prominent or pronounced wings to conceal them magically.
It's the same for claws or fingernails or tentacles. An illithid's face tentacles or a kraken's are likely not minor features, but some occultist with a small tentacle somewhere might fall into the minor category for concealing it.
Similarly, a unicorn or a pegasus could pass for a horse in a lot of cases (despite being Magical Beasts and not Animals), but I would consider the alicorn and the wings to be major aspects and features and not let them be concealed with disguise self (though other methods could, even non-magical ones).
Same thing with scales or something. Is it a minor thing to hide them if you have a scaly face? Maybe, unless you have scales prominent or hard enough to give you a substantial Natural Armor bonus maybe. But, it also depends on the scales and thickness or prominence. If it's just some light scales around the eyes, like a yuan-ti pureblood, probably fine.
Would I let an intelligent human skeleton give themselves illusory skin with disguise self? Probably, though most people would likely consider skin (or lack of) a pretty major aspect of a creature to note. So it's really not just an issue of the property, but the extent of the property. I might let a cyclops look like it has two eyes, even though having one eye is a major aspect and feature of a cyclops.
monchromaticPrism wrote:
It would also clash with entities like Medusa being designed to disguise their snake hair using their sla Disguise Self castings to pass as a normal humanoid.
I didn't know medusa had SLAs, but okay. Let's assume they are a sorcerer or have a hat of disguise. Would I normally consider snakes for hair a minor feature? Probably not, but it depends on the size and length. A medusa is a Monstrous Humanoid, but I think it's obvious from the description that they are almost identical and easily mistaken for human women even in normal conditions, so I would call that a special case. Even in ordinary circumstances at 30 feet or more they can just be mistaken for women with possible wild or unruly hair and even closer if wearing a headwrap or turban or something. So I wouldn't really have a problem with them concealing their snakes somewhat (even if only changing the coloration of them to a more prominent hair-style coloration).
But that's just one person's perspective. Not an official answer.
Disguise Self:I1(glamer) overall it is just a magical glamer as a disguise with a +10 bonus. To be really useful (versus perception checks at higher level) the caster needs some ranks in disguise.
The OGL spell is written for medium (or small) sized humanoid casters. Luckily the one foot shorter or taller does not change the target's size as 1) the spell doesn't say so, 2) 2.5+1 is not 5ft (med sized square) and 3) Disguise skill. By shape they mean humanoid type. Subtypes would be humanoid (human, drow, elf, or other races in your size category).
Notice it does not alter your age or age category, so you can't apply the Young Template. The caster can appear old (like make up, drawing wrinkles and lines) but not change the age category, same for looking younger (as if troweling on the foundation). It's a disguise check.
You can't do a medusa(monstrous humanoid), cambion(outsider (chaotic, demon, evil, extraplanar)), or zombie(undead) as they are not the same type as humanoid. You can do a human in a medusa, cambion, or zombie costume (but it's obvious it is a costume thus there goes your +10). You just don't have the creepy undead aura and missing body parts but you can look similar. Again, reference the disguise skill.
The official limitation is the school description, the Disguise skill description, the spell description itself and other spells like it. It is really all about the mechanical benefits of other sizes and creature types and that's denied.
As it's an OGL spell the discussion goes back 20 years...
One thing to keep in mind is that some humanoid seeming races are not in fact humanoids. An Illithid is actually an aberration not a humanoid so is not a legitimate choice for disguise person when cast by most PC races. Likewise, most plane touched races are also outsiders, not humanoids. So, disguising yourself as an Assamar, or Tiefling is also not allowed by RAW. A GM may can of course chose to allow such disguises with the spell.
The spell limit on size is more about you than it is a races normal range. Nothing prevents you from changing you characters apparent age, so by doing so may allow more choices of subtype. An adult Gnome could easily appear to be a human child instead of a full grow adult. I don’t think there is anything in the rules that sate your disguise has to be within the normal range of the race you are attempting to disguise yourself as. But doing so might negate the benefit of the spell. Don’t forget that Disguise Person is an illusion and allows a save if you interact with the recipient of the spell.
One thing to keep in mind is that some humanoid seeming races are not in fact humanoids. An Illithid is actually an aberration not a humanoid so is not a legitimate choice for disguise person when cast by most PC races.
True, I was replying to the case of him saying a medusa or similar creature. The spell is restricted to Type based on the caster. So an illithid (mind flayer) could disguise self as a bee-man, but a GM might rule they can't conceal their face tentacles because those aren't a minor feature (but they might allow it). It would look like an illithid (or at least a person with face tentacles) covered in bees. Same with a medusa. As a Monstrous Humanoid, she still couldn't look like a minotaur (likely too tall and gaining large horns), or a centaur, but could possibly pull off looking like a maenad (which also basically looks like a human woman despite not being Humanoid).
I can't give you a hard and fast official rule. I can only comment on my own perspective. I don't think the issue is claws, tails, wings, or hair (snakes or otherwise). I think it is the extent of the change. And that will always fall to GM interpretation.
What is or isn't a minor feature kind of depends. Are a catfolk's claws as obvious or obtrusive or visible as an owlbear's? A strix's wingspan is about 12 feet across. Some GMs might rule that their wings aren't a 'minor' feature, meaning they can't hide them even if they look like an elf or human (they'd still have wings, though minor features of the wings might still be changeable, like feather-type or coloration). They might be perfectly fine with allowing a different winged race with much smaller or less prominent or pronounced wings to conceal them magically.
This is the bit I don't get: "What is or isn't a minor feature kind of depends."
I see this a lot but the spell doesn't limit itself to minor features, it gives you the option of making minor changes OR looking completely different. The text reads: "You could add or obscure a minor feature OR look like an entirely different person or gender." The OR is clearly positioned as an if-else in the statement, meaning that while you can choose only to add or remove minor features using the spell you can also instead choose to look completely different. To be blunt, given the end referenced ability to appear as a different gender, even if only creating a glamour from one average human to another, a shirtless male to female disguise will feature the very prominent addition of a pair of breasts.
You mention many potential body parts a creature may possess, but my point is that, purely by the spell's description, there is no limitation that states "you cannot take the appearance of any qualifying subtype that possesses physical characteristics that are substantially different from your own". From what I've looked up that limitation is entirely homebrew / house rule. I'm only asking here because I saw so many comments insisting that to be the case that I want to check whether there are any actual rulings or clarifications I am unaware of. I have already looking into whether illusion magic or glamours have any such limitations, but I still haven't found anything.
Instead I only have what the spell clearly states: "You cannot change your creature type (although you can appear as another subtype)".
There are multiple humanoid races that have wings, tails, and in the case of the Kasatha 4 arms. All legitimate targets based off the spell's description and explicitly listed limitations.
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On the matter of my SLA example, I was incorrect on the Disguise Self for Medusas. I had them confused with another stat block.
1) I think you are misreading the spell by cutting away half of that phrase:
Disguise self wrote:
You could add or obscure a minor feature or look like an entirely different person or gender.
The spell isn't limited to changing a minor feature, the spell can go from changing a relatively small feature to making relatively large changes.
But that has a caveat, see 2).
2) The relevant line is:
Disguise self wrote:
If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on the Disguise check.
What does it mean?
a) You can use the spell without disguising yourself. Results: you look different, but you don't look like anything specific. Practically useless besides trying to hide your original features.
It is similar to people using president masks to rob banks.
b) You use it with the Disguise skill. A skill that can be used untrained by anyone.
The skill defines what you can change and how hard it is to spot the change.
3) The spell has a limit when used with the Disguise skill:
Disguise self wrote:
You cannot change your creature type (although you can appear as another subtype).
That means that when you try to pose as a different Type of creature you don't get the +10 bonus to disguise.
1) I think you are misreading the spell by cutting away half of that phrase:
Disguise self wrote:
You could add or obscure a minor feature or look like an entirely different person or gender.
The spell isn't limited to changing a minor feature, the spell can go from changing a relatively small feature to making relatively large changes.
But that has a caveat, see 2).
2) The relevant line is:
Disguise self wrote:
If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on the Disguise check.
What does it mean?
a) You can use the spell without disguising yourself. Results: you look different, but you don't look like anything specific. Practically useless besides trying to hide your original features.
It is similar to people using president masks to rob banks.
b) You use it with the Disguise skill. A skill that can be used untrained by anyone.
The skill defines what you can change and how hard it is to spot the change.
3) The spell has a limit when used with the Disguise skill:
Disguise self wrote:
You cannot change your creature type (although you can appear as another subtype).
That means that when you try to pose as a different Type of creature you don't get the +10 bonus to disguise.
The full text of the spell is:
"You make yourself – including clothing, armor, weapons, and equipment – look different. You can seem 1 foot shorter or taller, thin, fat, or in between. You cannot change your creature type (although you can appear as another subtype). Otherwise, the extent of the apparent change is up to you. You could add or obscure a minor feature or look like an entirely different person or gender.
The spell does not provide the abilities or mannerisms of the chosen form, nor does it alter the perceived tactile (touch) or audible (sound) properties of you or your equipment. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on the Disguise check. A creature that interacts with the glamer gets a Will save to recognize it as an illusion."
The latter portion, which includes the if-statement "If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on the Disguise check" occurs after the spell description of what it does. It wouldn't change / constrain what the spell is actually capable of accomplishing, it provides a condition in which the spell could be used and the benefit the spell would provide if used for that purpose.
To clarify, I don't particularly care about how the spell factors into disguise rolls because I am only interested in the first portion of the spell, the portion that defines the glamour effect. If choosing not to use the spell to create a disguise results in a very-clearly-an-illusion form, I can accept that. My primary interest is whether turning into a significantly different but still, spell as written, valid form such as Strix or Kasatha is a valid target.
As for a use case, maybe a player wants to use disguise self to create a visual representation of a humanoid (or outsider for races like Aasimar) they saw but didn't recognize to someone more knowledgable. In that case they don't care about disguising themselves or preventing the illusion from being recognized as such, they just want the initial glamour effect covered in the first paragraph.
I understand what you mean now, I think I got thrown off on a medusa snake-hair tangent when you said they had a disguise self spell-like ability and that's how they looked human.
I think the generally accepted guideline is that if you use disguise self to look like another creature (basically other than yourself with some changed features), the 'extent' of the changes called out in the spell should likely fall into the race's parameters (other than height restriction, which is called out in the spell). This could still be extremes for the race that aren't in the racial 'norms' or averages', so obesity or even albinism would be possible, but not turning into an elf with medusa snake-hair. Turning into a Strix is probably fine, but not one with batwings or glowing red eyes, unless that's a common or known trait type. But you could probably look like a Strix that's had its wing feathers shaved or plucked.
A human guise with six-fingers is probably acceptable, but not squid tentacles or four arms. A one-legged guise for a humanoid is probably fine (as long as you aren't walking around on your two legs, which would probably call for immediate disbelief from observers, even though most humanoids have two arms and two legs, but it's not unheard of for one to be lost or even born without one or the other (but it is believably more likely to get people looking and studying you more, even if it's only when they think you aren't looking). And even though conjoined twins are a thing, it's probably beyond the spell to make such a thing where even joined, they're considered separate individuals. A non-sentient parasitic twin might be acceptable, but not one that can talk or take actions, since that probably goes a bit beyond the spell's intentions.
The spell can do things like scars or tattoos (or conceal them) or clothing and equipment, so technically if your GM allows it (and contact lenses are a thing you know about in the game) the spell could give you such lenses as 'equipment' and your disguised form's eye color could be different than the racial eye color norms of the race you are pretending to be... but then an observer should be able to note that you seem to have contact lenses if they look close enough (whether they know they're illusory or not). Kind of like you probably can't turn into a human with blue skin, but you could maybe convince your GM that your disguise is a human covered in blue body-paint. Or a bald, hairless race wearing a colored wig, or a drow with dyed blonde hair (which would require people to examine to tell, in case they wondered if it was dyed or a wig and they might just see that's it's an illusion, but if they fail, they might think it's just dyed, as you intended).
Disguise Self does not have to be used to make you look different than you normally do. It could be used to create normal changes in your appearance. For example, it could be used to change the look of the clothes you are wearing or other things like your hair style or even the color of your hair, without trying to look like something else.
If you are trying to look like something else that by definition is using it to make a disguise. In such cases the rules for disguise are what is used to determine how well you succeed. Nothing in the description of the spell says you are limited to the looks of real creatures. There is no reason you cannot alter your looks to be something total fictitious. The only limits to what the spell can accomplish are listed in the spell.
You make yourself—including clothing, armor, weapons, and equipment—look different. You can seem 1 foot shorter or taller, thin, fat, or in between. You cannot change your creature type (although you can appear as another subtype). Otherwise, the extent of the apparent change is up to you. You could add or obscure a minor feature or look like an entirely different person or gender.
People have been paying attention to the or, but ignoring the fact the description actually states that other than the listed limitations the extent of the change is completely up to the caster.
You make yourself—including clothing, armor, weapons, and equipment—look different. You can seem 1 foot shorter or taller, thin, fat, or in between. You cannot change your creature type (although you can appear as another subtype). Otherwise, the extent of the apparent change is up to you. You could add or obscure a minor feature or look like an entirely different person or gender.
People have been paying attention to the or, but ignoring the fact the description actually states that other than the listed limitations the extent of the change is completely up to the caster.
This is what has been confusing me. As far as I can tell there are no limitations on what you can do, illusion wise, outside of “cannot change creature type” and “appear +1/-1 feet tall”.
Mysterious Stranger is correct, as far as I can tell, in pointing out that outside of those restrictions the spell is incredibly flexible. After reconsidering it, it’s even more so than I first thought, as I was artificially limiting it to small and medium creature options when that isn’t an explicit limitation of the spell.
Thus while you can’t appear as an inorganic material, like a statue, because you don’t have the construct type, you could, for example, appear as a size large or above giant species but one that (for reasons magical or otherwise) is shrunk to within 1 foot of your true height. Tieflings and Aasimar could appear as any outsider of their choice, even the ones that are mostly just geometric shapes, as long as their illusion of that creature is scaled down or up to their physical size.
The one thing I would point out is that if you alter your appearance too radically it may cause the people looking at you to become suspicious and be able to tell something is wrong. Even if the gnome takes the form of a storm giant, people are going to know something is wrong by the fact the “Storm Giant” is only 3 feet tall.
There is no reason you cannot alter your looks to be something total fictitious. The only limits to what the spell can accomplish are listed in the spell.
That's an okay way of looking at it, but unfortunately there's 'looks good on paper' and 'can be described in actual gameplay.'
We have the height restriction and the can't change your creature type restriction. That doesn't mean a 1st-level spell is meant to have unlimited power and potential because it wasn't specifically listed out with parameters for every single creature, anatomy, creature type, and feature of each individual creature (be it the caster or the intended guise).
The creature type restriction isn't meant to be specifically the creature type, because you know that logically in game no player ever says, "I cast disguise self to look like an 'Undead' or 'Outsider (Evil)'." It clearly means trying to look like a creature that is a type other than yours (barring ones that specifically look like another creature type, like Medusa or Maenads looking like human women). Just like a player trying to say, "I cast the spell and look like a human skeleton (Undead). Oh, I can't become an Undead...? Well... then I'm just a Humanoid (Human) with no eyes, muscles, organs, or skin." Clearly, they're trying to look like an Undead.
No. If a player (Humanoid) said, "I want to look like a medusa," you know that isn't in the parameters or scope of the spell. To then let them go, "Oh... then I'll just be a human woman with medusa snakes for hair," clearly is not the intention of the spell.
With your method a gnome could look like a Medusa (just a two to four-foot tall one) if they wanted. Or you allow a player to make a statement like, "Well, a horse is Large, but many horses can be 5 to 7 feet tall, as a 6-foot tall human, I want to look like a horse animal... err... I mean 'a humanoid (human)' ::wink-wink:: with a horse-face and mane standing 7-feet tall, with four legs and a 6-foot long horse body."
Or "Some snakes that get 12 to 20 feet long are still less than a foot-tall, so I am going to say there's a fictitious snake that would be 6-feet tall in heighhhhht!, and... by reasonable math... have a 75-foot long body. I know a snake's an Animal, but I, a 6-foot tall Humanoid (Human) am just in the guise of a 6-foot tall Humanoid (halfling) that has a snake head and a snake's 75-foot long... not high!... snake body. It also has wings... but bat-like, not feathered, cause I don't want to be a Couatl. And mirror-like reflective scales! Also... I decided I want gray eyes! I promise to keep myself coiled up in a 5-foot space, though, because I'm not looking to cause you any problems or anything! It'll just look like a coiled snake sliding along the floor while wrapped around itself... but that won't be unusual for anyone... because that's just how this creature that doesn't exist moves... so no one will find it odd or worthy of further investigation."
Or allowing them to claim they're making up a fictitious race, they'd have to make up a fictitious creature type for that race.
Player: "I am disguising myself an immense (but only +1 foot of my height) orb surrounded by eyeballs!"
GM: "That's a [copyright]! That's an aberration. The spell can't do that."
Player: "Oh... This is a fictitious, made-up creature... It's a... ummm... 'Humanoid' with the...uhh... 'Bee...hol...durr' subtype in parenthesis. Spelled with a 'U', so it's totally different. Yeah, they look exactly like a ... thing you said... but their eyes are just normal eyes..."
GM: "Oh, well... as long as it's only your height +/– one foot, then I guess that's clearly allowed and intended."
It's nice on paper or in argument, but doesn't work in reality or actual gameplay.
In some things the GM is going to need to use some common sense. Trying to make up a fictitious race that looks like a beholder is obviously an abuse of the spell, but changing your skin color to green or appearing as a winged human should be fine.
In some things the GM is going to need to use some common sense. Trying to make up a fictitious race that looks like a beholder is obviously an abuse of the spell, but changing your skin color to green or appearing as a winged human should be fine.
I think those 'should' be fine too, but I was under the impression the OP is looking for at least some actual limit or guideline or something they can use for their game or ruling with a reasonable explanation should they need to explain it to one of their players. Not just a list of things that are okay. "Claws are okay... but only if you're a Humanoid... you have to say 'Catfolk claws' not 'cat claws'."
If it's only "Taller or shorter by one foot and as long as they don't specifically say a creature type that isn't theirs, everything in existence is allowed," that might be acceptable to them as a GM in their game, but I still think they know that would be asking for trouble and needless complications (not the end of the world or a game-breaking situation, but something better to avoid).
My recommendation (which is all this is), is that a safe guideline and easy to explain limit is features available (even possibly extreme ones or genetic flaws) to the race you are guising as (before adding in tattoos or scars or birthmarks or equipment).
If you can't find a winged humanoid (let alone a specific winged human creature), then you could always do different things, like have it appear that you're wearing wings of flying that are active and have bird or bat wings showing (obviously can't fly). Or unless your world has drow with bright, green, Hulk-like skin, it's either best to have your 'equipment' or covering be (illusory) bodypaint. A blue [creature that is three-apples high, I am not saying the name] is not out of the ordinary. A similarly blue-skinned drow would be. I am not saying there isn't a way for disguise self to pull off those guises (and obviously in your game where anything other than height and type is allowed that's even easier), I am just talking about a good, easy to define and explain limit and guideline. Don't like it, err one way or the other, more or less lenient.
Others can disagree, I just don't think the intent or power-scope of the spell is intended to be a creature of any size and appearance and features and qualities as long as its vertical height is in a 2-foot range regardless of its body length or weight or size or girth or dimensions. Allowing a 6-foot human female to look like a 5-foot fat human man, even an obese or albino one with no hair that looks like they have an orange toupee (equipment) is fine. Letting them be a five-foot tall human male (within parameters for height and type) with 20-foot tentacles for arms, a snail shell on their back, a quilled bearded devil beard, and a spider/drider lower half, with glowing purple eyes (not contact lenses or goggles that are luminescent purple) and taking up a 15-foot space (long, not tall, because the spell doesn't mention any dimensions other than Y) with the leg and spider abdomen width... is not something that should be allowed without understanding just how much that can effect things.
The thing to keep in mind is all the spell really does is to give you a +10 to your disguise roll. You still take the penalties listed in the description of the disguise skill. So, if an adult male elf wanted to disguise himself as a middle-aged human woman that would impose a -6 penalty. It also allows for a will save if you interact with the target of the spell. You can use disguise (with the proper equipment) to attempt any of the things I have mentioned. All the spell is doing is providing a bonus to the roll and eliminating the need for the props. Since the spell is so low level the save is not that difficult to make. Adding all these extra limitations on the spell that are not mentioned anywhere in the description of the spell, or in the rules for illusions is weakening the spell way more than it should.
... It also allows for a will save if you interact with the target of the spell. ...
For completeness sake, not that I think you necessarily intended different. It is not 'interacting with the target' (the caster of disguise self, in this case), it has to actively be interacting with an aspect of the glamer.
Space Saver:
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Grabbing the ear of a human disguised as an elf would allow a saving throw for disbelief (pointy ear). Just talking to them wouldn't. Shaking the hand of someone whose guise only was changing their clothing or their hat of disguise to a hair-comb or hairband wouldn't. If (your GM allows it), you've disguised yourself as a centaur that looks just like you but with a horse's lower half, shaking your hand or hugging you or putting you in handcuffs won't trigger a disbelief save.
Same for clothing. If you've made your full plate armor look like a ballgown, there's only a save for if they touch (or hit you with a weapon), presumably where the ballgown covers you. So come attacks, like a sap to the back of the head or a garotte attack may not trigger an automatic save unless it contacted the glamered object (ie. the armor had an aventail or neck guard when the garotte goes around your apparently unguarded (or only guarded by a high, cloth collar) throat.
A person standing nearby might hear the creak or the the metallic clink of metal armor, but that won't trigger a save (but it might be cause for suspicion and an action used to focus and study the target). Similar for the above-mentioned centaur guise, there wouldn't be a hoofbeat or *clip-clop* as you walk. That wouldn't trigger a save, but could be noted and be the basis for studying the target in a manner that allows it.
Using that as a basis, interacting generally means spending a move action, standard action, or greater on a character’s part. For example, if there were a major image of an ogre, a character who tried to attack the ogre would receive a saving throw to disbelieve, as would a character who spent 1 minute attempting a Diplomacy check on the ogre. A character who just traded witty banter with the ogre as a free action would not, nor would a character who simply cast spells on herself or her allies and never directly confronted the illusory ogre. For a glamer, interacting generally works the same as for a figment, except that the interaction must be limited to something the glamer affects. For instance, grabbing a creature’s ear would be an interaction for a human using disguise self to appear as an elf, but not for someone using a glamer to change his hair color. Similarly, visually studying someone would not grant a save against a glamer that purely changed her voice.
Again, I am only clarifying that you have to interact in some way (in case you were just being brief when you said 'target') with a part of the glamer, not just the target of the spell. And interaction doesn't just mean talking (unless the glamer changed their voice or sound, which isn't the case here), it means a disguised or altered aspect. If they've hidden the tattoo of a pirate map on their back by making it look like unblemished skin or a different tattoo entirely, you don't get to save for Disbelief if they're wearing a shirt and you hug them, even if your arms or hand touches their back. Or even if they were shirtless.
... It also allows for a will save if you interact with the target of the spell. ...
For completeness sake, not that I think you necessarily intended different. It is not 'interacting with the target' (the caster of disguise self, in this case), it has to actively be interacting with an aspect of the glamer.
** spoiler omitted **
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CRB wrote:
Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief ): Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.
My vision of what "interact [with the illusion]" means is somewhat different.
Did you change your dress/armor?
Anyone standing near you is interacting with it. You move differently than someone with the apparent dress (especially if wearing armor, as the weight doesn't change).
Do you change/hide your weapon? Same as above.
Do you change your size or body type? Same as above.
Minor changes are harder to detect, but, as long as you interact with the glamoured person you are interacting with the spell.
When the 6' 6" tall barbarian doesn't duck a bit when going through the 6' 7" doorframe because he is a 5' 7" bard you are interacting with the illusion.
The result of the disguise check matters as it should determine if the disguised guy knows how to behave to hide the differences or not.
As I see it, when you apply Disguise self you make a Disguise check (if you have trained with that disguise [used it at home during downtime] you can take 10, barring other impediments) and that sets the difficulty of noticing that you don't behave the correct way.
When the disguise fails (i.e. the other guy beats it with a Perception check and notices that something is amiss) the person making the check gets to make a save against the illusion.
If the save succeeds the illusion is canceled against the guy that made the save, if the save fails, he dismisses the result of the perception check result as "something seems amiss, but nothing important".
My vision of what "interact [with the illusion]" means is somewhat different.
... as long as you interact with the glamoured person you are interacting with the spell.
That is most definitely different than the rules and norms. If that house rule works for you, that's fine. The wording of the CRB and other definite rules are that you normally do not count as interacting (for purposes of getting a disbelief saving through or to see through the illusion), just by standing near or talking or seeing someone unless you use an action of some kind to interact with (talking and looking do not).
If you see someone who's 5'10 walk through a 6-foot high doorway, that's not unusual just because they didn't duck. Maybe they've walked through that doorway a hundred times or... just didn't duck. If you saw their head pass through it, then yes.
Now, if you've declared that your character is intently studying someone to the point where you're calculating that someone passes through a doorway with an inch of clearance and doesn't flinch or duck their head... then you might have call to be considered studying the creature. But not just because you see a creature walking. Different people, even human males of the same height and weight, could walk in entirely different ways. Expecting your character to make some advanced deduction just seeing someone make a 5-foot step and knowing their shoe size, how comfortable or worn their boots are, whether they have swollen ankles or sore feet from walking all day, or anything else and somehow getting to make a free saving through is not the norm. You need to at least say, "I am studying them for anything that looks off" first. Just hearing a squeak of leather when a woman walks by isn't enough (because the rulings have said so). It might lead to you taking time to study or look for something and then get a save.
Quote:
When the disguise fails ... the person making the check gets to make a save against the illusion.
Fair enough, assuming the took time to try and look and sense there was a disguise or had a reason to study them, then noting someone's in a disguise (when that wouldn't be normal, ie. someone in a costume at a costume party or masquerade ball isn't).
Quote:
If the save succeeds the illusion is canceled against the guy that made the save, if the save fails, he dismisses the result of the perception check result as "something seems amiss, but nothing important".
No, he doesn't dismiss is, he just doesn't know the disguise is an illusion or be able to see through it. He's already made the check to realize the person he's looking at is disguised, he just doesn't disbelieve the illusion, so if their hair was altered, he might think it was a wig or dye or otherwise fake. He doesn't forget it's a disguise and think nothing's amiss because he doesn't realize the disguise is illusory, as opposed to practical (ie. from a disguise kit or just natural skill at mimicry).
And now to pull back the veil on why I *personally* wanted an unbiased discussion of what disguise self is allowed to create with purely the visual portion of the spell:
Assumed Form (Sp): You can change your appearance at will, as disguise self with a caster level equal to your oracle level. At 7th level, you can choose to actually transform, which works the same way but counts as a polymorph effect instead of an illusion and doesn’t allow a Will save to disbelieve. At 11th level, the ability lasts until you dismiss it or use it again, allowing you to even keep it active while you sleep. At 15th level, when you use this ability as a polymorph effect, you can gain the size bonus to your ability scores and additional racial abilities as if using alter self.
The reason I didn’t mention this earlier is that I didn’t want personal perceptions of how this interaction might play out to color interpretations of the Disguise Self spell. I mention it now because, while some might consider this cursed knowledge, I think this is far too much fun to keep to myself.
The potential applications of this are fascinating to consider, as you genuinely transform into whatever you set the illusion to appear as. Naturally you aren’t granted special abilities or what have you from appearing as another creature since the spell doesn’t grant you any, but it’s still an at-will nearly complete creative freedom physical transformation.
I'd say it's why I didn't allow fictitious aspects, since the possibility of somehow creating or stumbling on a shadow illusion (which doesn't exist, but some variant of shadow conjuration that worked on illusions) or other effect (something that made the illusion at least partially real) would be vastly abuseable. It's to prevent things like that. The safest guideline is to keep it in the parameters of the creature you are disguised as (while still having vast amounts of detail and options, but still existing and viable properties of the creature.
My definition of interacting is that the person interacting has to actually doing something with the target. They don’t need to study the target carefully but do have to be doing something with them. Talking to the person that the spell is on affecting or any kind of combat with them would count. If the situation requires the observer to make any kind of roll that would definitely count as an interaction. That includes knowledge skills about the character, perception rolls to recognize them and sense motive rolls about the character. It is not about the actions of the person using disguise self, it is about the actions of the other people. They don’t need to use more than a free action, but some activity on their part is needed. This still means that many characters will get a save.
A creature that interacts with the glamer gets a Will save to recognize it as an illusion.
The description of Disguise Self specifies if the target makes the save, they recognize it as an illusion.
Since Disguise Person is an illusion, it can be used to try and disguise yourself as a specific person. Polymorph effects, unless otherwise noted cannot disguise assume the form of a specific creature. If you cannot assume a fictitious form does that mean you cannot appear to be a fictitious person?
Also how does the spell know what is real or fictitious? Does the caster of the spell have to know what a Drow looks like in order to change into a Drow? What about if you are trying to change into something you saw that was not real. For Example, say you saw an illusion of a blue skinned winged human and want to change into that. As far as you are concerned this is a real creature. When you try and change into that form with disguise self does it fail.
They don’t need to study the target carefully but do have to be doing something with them.
Sure, but let's be clear, studying a person carefully is definitely grounds to make a save against disguise self (assuming you can see what's altered. For instance, if they've disguised a tattoo on their back and you can't see their back, shaking their hand or talking to them or making a Sense Motive Check against a Bluff they make isn't going to let you disbelieve the illusion. It's not intended and it's not stated to be that way.
Rules > Illusions wrote:
Using that as a basis, interacting generally means spending a move action, standard action, or greater on a character’s part (1). For example, if there were a major image of an ogre, a character who tried to attack the ogre would receive a saving throw to disbelieve, as would a character who spent 1 minute attempting a Diplomacy check on the ogre. A character who just traded witty banter with the ogre as a free action would not, nor would a character who simply cast spells on herself or her allies and never directly confronted the illusory ogre. For a glamer, interacting generally works the same as for a figment, except that the interaction must be limited to something the glamer affects. For instance, grabbing a creature’s ear would be an interaction for a human using disguise self to appear as an elf, but not for someone using a glamer to change his hair color. Similarly, visually studying someone would not grant a save against a glamer that purely changed her voice.(2)
(1) Generally mean if the guised creature touched your or hit you with a glamered weapon, you'd get a chance to save without using an action or some other reason.
(2) By a similar means, hearing or speaking to someone using a glamer that only changed their appearance would not allow a save.
Space Saver:
-----------------------------------------
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
The description of Disguise Self specifies if the target makes the save, they recognize it as an illusion.
No one's saying otherwise.
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Since Disguise Person is an illusion, it can be used to try and disguise yourself as a specific person. Polymorph effects, unless otherwise noted cannot disguise assume the form of a specific creature.
If you're referring to the Assumed Form ability just mentioned, since it clearly turns the aspects of disguise self to a polymorph effect, it clearly says it works like the spell, but just counts as polymorph, so clearly if you can make yourself look like a specific person with disguise self or anything your GM allows (which is the basis of the conversation here), then Assumed Form will allow it. The issue is what can be done with disguise self.
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
If you cannot assume a fictitious form does that mean you cannot appear to be a fictitious person?
It doesn't mean that. A fictitious person is different than a fictitious creature. Which is different than a fictitious story. Which is different than a fictitious place.
You can't look like a fictitious or real object or place with disguise self either. That doesn't mean you can't look real or fictitious person, any more than being able to look like a real elf means you can look like a real dragon (with disguise self.
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Does the caster of the spell have to know what a Drow looks like in order to change into a Drow?
Yes. Without a doubt. You can try and make a guise based of a description but it will be very unlikely to fool anyone that's seen a real one.
Just reading a book or even possibly seeing a picture or drawing of a drow and hearing 'They look like elves with black skin (or blue skin) and white hair. You might get something close, but you might not get the eye color or the face structure. Trying to make an illusory unicorn is more than putting a horn on a horse (something you've seen). You might not capture the hair at the hooves, or that it's spiraled, or smooth, of glows or sparkles or the look of intelligence in its eyes.
You undeniably have to know what something is and looks like to make something look like something (believably). Yes, if you screw up making a demon (A big red man with horns and a pitchfork), that might fool someone who's never seen one, they might even yell "Demon!" But if someone's like, "Does it look like a kyton? Or a Lemure? Or a Pit fiend?" It's gonna be nothing (doesn't mean it's not a demon they've never seen, but it's not going to look like a real demon).
Player: "I just use disguise self to look exactly like myself with no chest hair. Maybe with a tattoo? Is that allowed?
GM: Yes.
Player: "Ok, so it's a tattoo of the map rumored to be on the Pirate King's back that leads to the Tomb of Aroden."
GM: "You've never met the Pirate King, he might be fictitious. You don't know if he even has a tattoo, or if it's a map, or where it might actually go, or if there's even a Tomb of Aroden..."
Player: "But tattoos are allowed!"
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
say you saw an illusion of a blue skinned winged human and want to change into that. As far as you are concerned this is a real creature. When you try and change into that form with disguise self does it fail.
First of all, assuming you are being genuine, it doesn't matter what the caster sees or thinks is real. If they see a real seagull, they still can't use disguise self to look like one. If they see a real medusa, they can't use disguise self to look like one. So yes, it will fail, because that creature isn't their creature type, whether they think that, know that, or believe it with all their heart and wish upon a star.
Now, if you're asking if they could look like a human with blue skin and wings, that's the whole point of the topic. I saw know, because humans don't come in the blue-skinned and winged variety (find a Humanoid that does and happens to look like a human), but I have always said you could try and work around it. Be a human with blue bodypaint (equipment) and look like you have wings of flying and you could pull off the appearance. Otherwise the spell fails, because it can't make you something that isn't Humanoid, which some fictitious image you imagined, or saw in a book, or an illusion (some illusions can be anything their creator imagines, unlike disguise self, or even saw in a dream one night.
----------------------------------
I'd say it's why I didn't allow fictitious aspects, since the possibility of somehow creating or stumbling on a shadow illusion (which doesn't exist, but some variant of shadow conjuration that worked on illusions) or other effect (something that made the illusion at least partially real) would be vastly abuseable.
Hold up now, that means your earlier posts weren't good faith discussion. This is the "Rules Questions" 1e forum, not the "Advice" or "Homebrew and House Rules" forums. I'm asking about how the spell actually works, not how you would preemptively balance it for your own table.
Hold up now, that means your earlier posts weren't good faith discussion. This is the "Rules Questions" 1e forum, not the "Advice" or "Homebrew and House Rules" forums.
Incorrect. Don't even try and pull that garbage. In fact, my very first sentence makes it clear that you aren't going to get a hard and fast 'Official' ruling. It doesn't matter what forum you post in. Go back and read it. You are not going to have some dev delineate every single acceptable change from the millions of possible anatomical, biological, and hypothetical possibilities of every single creature possible in Pathfinder. If that's what you demand of anyone, then don't expect any replies. All we can give you is advice and quote rules you already know with our interpretation. (I know others have given their houserules that directly contradict stated rulings and examples, but that was on tangential topics, like seeing through disguise self, not what the guise might be).
My stance, from the very first statement, is that you aren't going to get an official rule and I am only saying how it would be viewed by me, as a GM. That is the best you will get from anyone.
The best overall table ruling, for the broadest use of all tables, not just mine or yours (you can always change yours, as can any GM), has always been that by taking the creature type restriction into account (assuming a Humanoid caster, as per your examples), less so the height restriction, it is clear that disguise self is not intended to allow the user to become some 'monstrous' humanoid. You might be confusing me with others that allow no limits as long as the creature is within one foot of your height. I think it would be foolish to allow that, even if your type was Monstrous Humanoid (and to be clear, I mean adding a bunch of new features to the form of a Monstrous Human you're in the guise of, like webbed feet on a minotaur instead of hooves and eyestalks on a medusa).
Taking the creature type restriction into account, having the caster state the creature they are turning into, and give the generalities. Strong, male drow. Fat, human male. Skinny, goblin woman. Then you can let them add on details, like hair, eye color, what clothing or equipment they wear. The second they say something that goes 'that don't sound like a [insert creature here]' should make you stop. "Fat, human man with blue eyes. My shortsword looks like a dagger and he has tentacles for fingers and his nose is an elephant's trunk." It's too far, that's not a Humanoid (human), or Humanoid (elf), or Humanoid (goblin). So unless they can find a [Humanoid] race with those traits, disguise self can't do it. Use another illusion spell that isn't limited to that. Otherwise you are directly ignoring the creature type restriction, and that would be 'Homebrew' or 'Advice (because "Here's why I ignore it")
monochromaticPrism wrote:
I'm asking about how the spell actually works, not how you would preemptively balance it for your own table.
I have been very clear that my opinion on the matter comes from what would be the simplest, easiest to explain and fairest ruling (in my opinion) among all tables to avoid table variance or game-shock (which is how rules should be rated and balanced, obviously in your game you can have Humans with wings and snake hair and Spell Resistance, and they can turn people to stone... but then, you can just allow disguise self to turn you into a demigod. Hell, two demigods! Go ahead.
Every reply I've made has been based on the rules. I still haven't seen the medusa you mentioned with a disguise self spell-like ability you quoted in your original post that specifically uses it to take Humanoid guises and how this was one of the basis and foundations of your confusion. I'm thinking you made it up, so don't get surprised when you get answers that are also skewed or sidetracked. If a race says their ability functions like disguise self but they can appear as [some creature of a different type]', then it works.
I have consistently been on the side of not allowing fictitious and preposterous additions to a creature's form that are not in their normal parameters. Perhaps you're confusing me with people that definitely ignore the rulings and consider a visual illusion to be interacted with just by hearing the creature's voice or stating that a white shirt glamered to look red sounds different and triggers an auto-save. Or that you can look like something you've never seen or know what it looks like.
TL;DR
You are not going to use disguise self to make your halfing look like a choker. It doesn't matter that you fit the height requirement exactly. The spell cannot do that for you. It doesn't matter whether you know what a choker is, or whether you know it's an Aberration, or whether you're under some delusion that you yourself are an Aberration or secretly a choker cursed to look like a halfling and you just want to appear as your 'true form'.
That also means you are not going to become a halfling with long choker arms, or even short choker arms, or even halfling tentacles because maybe you're in the guise of a 'mutant halfling'. Stop it.
You want red hair? Do halflings have red hair? Great. You want luminescent, glowing hair that radiates sparkles and rainbows? No!
You can make an illusory headpiece or wig that shines and sparkles with a rainbow sheen, because you can alter the look of your clothing and gear. You want gloves with no fingers and long sleeves that look like tentacles? Yes, but that's going to affect your Disguise check and has nothing to do with the form or creature you appear as. It just means using Assumed Form would make your change to a halfling 'real', and so would the gloves that look like you have tentacles, but they wouldn't be tentacles. The same if you wanted wings. Halflings don't have wings. Make it look like you have wings of flying for equipment, but then when you use Assumed Form, you'd be a 'real' halfling with (illusory) wings of flying. They wouldn't become a real magic item even though your illusory halfling guise became real and polymorph-like.
When I said that's why I didn't allow fictitious additions, it's not because you just did your 'big reveal', it's because I have always said that, because I am not an idiot and I know how players try to pull Gotcha! surprises and finding obscure interactions. Your big trap would work with other GMs, and others repliers here. Don't get angry and try and claim I am being disingenuous because your clever ability wouldn't work at my table. It shouldn't work at ANY table (and by that, I mean where you specifically use disguise self to add a bunch of limbs and features, not that disguise self or Assumed Form wouldn't work, they would, just not in the clearly abuseable way you are insinuating).
One thing people are forgetting is that some characters have the ability to add features through race or class abilities. Are those not able to be duplicated with disguise self. Both the Abyssal and Draconic sorcerer bloodlines allow the sorcerer to grow claws; there are at least 3 bloodlines that allow the sorcerer to grow wings. Multiple martial classes allow the character to gain a variety of natural weapons including bites and claws.
Disguise self can specifies it affects your equipment including clothing, armor and weapons. This allows a caster with no weapons or armor to appear to be a paladin wearing full plate carrying a flaming sword. If that is the case, why cannot it make the same sorcerer appear as if they are a dragon disciple with the fangs claws and wings the character they are imitating has? If they can appear as the dragon disciple, why cannot they change the appearance of the fangs, claws and wings to something else?
In a world where magic is real any humanoid could have nearly any feature. Saying disguise self cannot add features unless it is the norm for the race is not RAW. If the GM want to make those changes to the spell that is certainly his option, but at that point that becomes a house rule.
You are not going to use disguise self to make your halfing look like a choker. It doesn't matter that you fit the height requirement exactly. The spell cannot do that for you. It doesn't matter whether you know what a choker is, or whether you know it's an Aberration, or whether you're under some delusion that you yourself are an Aberration or secretly a choker cursed to look like a halfling and you just want to appear as your 'true form'.
It's statements like this that make this discussion feel like you either don't understand what is being discussed or that you are jumping to unwarranted conclusions. A Choker is an abomination, not a humanoid, and so would be an invalid target for disguise self.
Pizza Lord wrote:
I have been very clear that my opinion on the matter comes from what would be the simplest, easiest to explain and fairest ruling (in my opinion) among all tables to avoid table variance or game-shock (which is how rules should be rated and balanced, obviously in your game you can have Humans with wings and snake hair and Spell Resistance, and they can turn people to stone... but then, you can just allow disguise self to turn you into a demigod. Hell, two demigods! Go ahead.
Again, this is fundamentally wrong, the rules around polymorph spells are very clear that they don't automatically give the creature abilities or even inherent attack effects like a poisonous bite or sting.
I don't know what kind of players you have had to deal with that cause you to assume that I am approaching this with a lack of respect for the rules or a desire to "turn into a demigod", but you shouldn't make assumptions about the character of an individual based on previous traumas. Double so online where we only have the written word, stripped of tone and tempo, with which to communicate.
What I am doing is the same as when I made a poison character based around pitted bullets and a self-harvesting Vishkanya or a siege weapon based character using high-str with muleback cords carrying around a heavy ballista + a low level custom magic item that creates unseen servants. I like reading character options and using any unusual capabilities I come across to create strange or unique builds, but if the RAW says that the build isn't possible I will try again from a different angle or accept the idea as unworkable and give up.
For example, I tried making a vital strike character that worked with a familiar to get once-per-turn true strike so my single attack had the best available chance of hitting, however after looking at many options I had to decide that it was functionally impossible. I never made any posts trying to get a "look GM this totally legit and unbiased rules post supports my interpretation of this ability", because that would violate the social contract, break the "rules" of good-faith character building, ruin the fun of digging through character options to find legitimate and legal interactions, and be a generally despicable thing to do.
I also don't approve of explicitly OP combos outside of pure theory crafting. For example:
This is a personal spell with no save, one that can be put into a potion spear or injected with poisoners gloves via alchemist infusion rules, and which automatically deals massive damage to an enemy and allows you to instantly kill them with a extra or swift action attack depending on how you exposed them. I would, at most, use this interaction a single time during an entire campaign or character's lifetime (whichever is longer) because the ability to instantly kill any enemy with skin in an single round with very high odds of success would ruin the game for both my GM and my fellow players.
...
Regardless, I have gotten my answer for this question. After seeing both your and Mysterious Stranger's replies it's clear that many of the limitations being insisted upon for Disguise Self are just common homebrews, not actual rules related to the spell itself or the functionality of glamours or illusions. If a GM decides the interaction is overpowered they are free to alter or ban it, as mentioned above it wouldn't be the first time a RAW interaction is ban worthy in pf1e.
while some exploits should work (you can look up my posts and find a few) you can't make potions of skinsend. it's a personal spell and you can't make potions of such spells :
"Potion and Oil Reference Guide
Source PPC:P&P
When creating or attempting to purchase a specific potion or oil, it is important to keep in mind the information below.
In order to be made into a potion or oil, a spell must meet all of the following criteria.
It must be a spell of 3rd level or lower.
It must have a casting time of less than 1 minute.
It must target one or more creatures or objects.
It must not have a range of personal.
"
*edit*
I didn't find at first the rule about potions in the core book so I brought it up from potions and poison but i later found it. from core book at item creation section, page 551:
"..All ingredients and materials used to brew a potion must be fresh and unused. The character must pay the full cost for brewing each potion. (Economies of scale do not apply.) The imbiber of the potion is both the caster and the target. Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions. The creator must have prepared the spell to be placed in the potion (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires...
---------------
also the example brought above of using dragon disiple as the illusion is a bad one. before reaching level 10 in it the wings and such are not a racial features (it's not humanoid race that give those abilities) but one gained from a class( for now, wait for the end) and are not some minor light changes, so the illusion shouldn't let you mimic them anymore then it would let you mimic a cleric's aura. and once you finish up the whole 10 levels of the prestige class you gain the dragon race which again is not humanoid.
so ether way you wouldn't be able to use disguise self to look like a dragon disciple.
while some exploits should work (you can look up my posts and find a few) you can't make potions of skinsend. it's a personal spell and you can't make potions of such spells :
"Potion and Oil Reference Guide
Source PPC:P&P
When creating or attempting to purchase a specific potion or oil, it is important to keep in mind the information below.
In order to be made into a potion or oil, a spell must meet all of the following criteria.
It must be a spell of 3rd level or lower.
It must have a casting time of less than 1 minute.
It must target one or more creatures or objects.
It must not have a range of personal.
"
*edit*
I didn't find at first the rule about potions in the core book so I brought it up from potions and poison but i later found it. from core book at item creation section, page 551:
"..All ingredients and materials used to brew a potion must be fresh and unused. The character must pay the full cost for brewing each potion. (Economies of scale do not apply.) The imbiber of the potion is both the caster and the target. Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions. The creator must have prepared the spell to be placed in the potion (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires...
---------------
also the example brought above of using dragon disiple as the illusion is a bad one. before reaching level 10 in it the wings and such are not a racial features (it's not humanoid race that give those abilities) but one gained from a class( for now, wait for the end) and are not some minor light changes, so the illusion shouldn't let you mimic them anymore then it would let you mimic a cleric's aura. and once you finish up the whole 10 levels of the prestige...
alchemist extract can be made, and with share extracts its close enough to a potion in this specific case maybe?
You are not going to use disguise self to make your halfing look like a choker. ...
or whether you know it's an Aberration, or whether you're under some delusion that you yourself are an Aberration
It's statements like this that make this discussion feel like you either don't understand what is being discussed or that you are jumping to unwarranted conclusions. A Choker is an abomination, not a humanoid, and so would be an invalid target for disguise self.
It's statements like this that make it very obvious that you're being very disingenuous about this discussion. One, you claim that medusas have disguise self spell-like abilities and have been designed to just break rules but never addressed it when asked.
monochromaticPrism wrote:
It would also clash with entities like Medusa being designed to disguise their snake hair using their sla Disguise Self castings to pass as a normal humanoid.
Two, you keep claiming that people are trying to deceptively give you 'official' answers when they very clearly say that you ARE NOT GOING TO GET ONE, but they are happy to offer you their advice and interpretation to further your discussion, and you then use to tell THEM that they're posting in the wrong forum.
Three, You literally QUOTE a post, above, where the post says that YOU CANNOT USE DISGUISE SELF TO MAKE YOUR HALFLING APPEAR AS A CHOKER. BECAUSE A CHOKER IS AN ABERRATION!
And you somehow think, "I know, I'll quote that post... and reply that a Choker is an Abomination ... and tell the person that I just quoted that from... that they don't know what a Choker is and that disguise self can't do that, and claim they don't know that, and not address a single actual point or contradictory fact or statement that doesn't match the outcome or answer I want!"
Pizza Lord wrote:
... in your game you can have Humans with wings and snake hair and Spell Resistance, and they can turn people to stone... but then, you can just allow disguise self to turn you into a demigod. Hell, two demigods! Go ahead.
monochromaticPrism wrote:
Again, this is fundamentally wrong, the rules around polymorph spells are very clear that they don't automatically give the creature abilities or even inherent attack effects like a poisonous bite or sting.
What in the Hell are you talking about? What does polymorph have to do with disguise self? Where are you bringing polymorph into your reply that you quoted? That quote clearly says that you, as the GM, can rule, however the [Heck] you want or let disguise self do what you want, but that you asked for limitations on rules, but then get upset when people actually give limitations (and provide reasons and examples to back up why that makes sense over 'no limitations') that don't fit your desired and preconceived notions.
For someone so quick to try and bawl out people for 'not discussing in good faith' you've done zero to actually acknowledge or reply or say, "Yeah, the spell isn't supposed to do that!" (Other than repeating when I said "The spell isn't supposed to do that!" and you then said I somehow didn't know the spell couldn't do that).
AND YOU ARE STILL WRONG! A CHOKER IS NOT AN ABOMINATION! IT IS AN ABERRATION! YOU LITERALLY QUOTED THE POST!
Seriously, are you in the wrong forum? Are you playing PF.2e? Are the creature types listed as Abominations there? Maybe you're in the wrong forum, since you're claiming medusa have SLAs and Chokers are abominations. That might be the whole issue you're having.
One thing people are forgetting is that some characters have the ability to add features through race or class abilities. Are those not able to be duplicated with disguise self. Both the Abyssal and Draconic sorcerer bloodlines allow the sorcerer to grow claws; there are at least 3 bloodlines that allow the sorcerer to grow wings. Multiple martial classes allow the character to gain a variety of natural weapons including bites and claws.
Nobody is forgetting that. But the disguise self spell has limitations on what it can do. It doesn't matter if five, ten, or even 100 other spells can. First off, just realize that disguise self cannot let you take the guise of another creature type. If you aren't an animal, you can't disguise yourself as a bear. If you disagree with this, then we are so far apart that you will not be able to understand that, otherwise, it would be pointless to have a creature type restriction. And from a good faith standpoint, we have to assume there's a reason for it.
There may be classes that can grow claws, or teeth, or wings. I bet if we look hard enough, we can find a class that can turn itself into a sheep, or a bear, or some other shape out of the wilds. That doesn't mean you can appear as a bear, because:
Player: "I'm appearing as a human with moss in their hair and leather robes and a silver sickle and holly and mistletoe and they have a beard with twigs in it and the robes have symbols of a druidic order."
GM: "That all sounds within the spell parameters, some people might mistake you for a druid so you might be able to get past the guards and..."
Player: "No wait! I'm not done... I'm in the guise of a human druid... who's wildshaped into a bear! Because that's still a Humanoid (Human), it doesn't change your type!"
GM: "No!"
There's a reason there is a restriction on what you can look like (whether you agree or disagree). If you can't look like a bear or look like a frost giant, you can't look like a wizard that cast a polymorph spell or "I'm disguised a wizard that could take the form of a dragon with disguise self!"
That would be allowing the spell to do something it is clearly stated that it can't do.
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Disguise self can specifies it affects your equipment including clothing, armor and weapons. This allows a caster with no weapons or armor to appear to be a paladin wearing full plate carrying a flaming sword. If that is the case, why cannot it make the same sorcerer appear as if they are a dragon disciple with the fangs claws and wings the character they are imitating has? If they can appear as the dragon disciple, why cannot they change the appearance of the fangs, claws and wings to something else?
First, let's be clear this topic is about changing the user's form moreso than equipment (which really isn't disputed). Saying that, disguise self can't make you look like a paladin or dragon disciple because those aren't equipment or gear nor are they creatures or things with a creature type, so they can't be your creature type. Those are classes. The spell can give you the equipment or appearance or clothing that might make people assume or mistake you for a paladin or dragon disciple or a plumber or a beggar. OOC you might say to the GM you are trying to pass as a plumber just to make it easier for them to visualize it (and probably understand why you went with a bushy mustache and overalls), but you would first have to be a human (or elf or half-orc or gnome) who is wearing illusory clothing or carrying illusory tools that a plumber or paladin might have. That has to happen before anything else, because you can't be a hill giant plumber (unless you're very, very tall already) or a medusa plumber. Have to get the creature type first.
You could very legitimately have your disguise self spell give you a glowing longsword, a shining breastplate, and holy symbol of a devout and good church, and even a medallion that only members of a paladin's order can wear... and you can still have someone that doesn't recognize the symbol or has a poor Knowledge check and they just think you're a human fighter with shiny armor and a magic sword and some really cool noble crest. They could also think you're a human wizard using a disguise spell to look like a paladin too, though, but you can't look like a minotaur that gets mistaken for a paladin or a plumber or a fighter.
The point is, equipment and clothing are a separate aspect of the spell, and have their own restrictions and limitations (not many) compared to the aspects of the user's form and what they can appear as. It would be like saying, "disguise self can make my 4-foot greatsword look like an 8-inch dagger, so it can make me look three feet shorter. Because Science!" Except, it can't, because it says it can't.
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
In a world where magic is real any humanoid could have nearly any feature. Saying disguise self cannot add features unless it is the norm for the race is not RAW.
Because Core spells and rules are not written to be parsed and applied to every possible thing that can happen in an individual game. It would be impossible. There could be games where humans have claws (when we know they don't). There are feats or abilities that let casters change the types or targets or ranges of spells, but it's those abilities that have to allow it, not require every general rule to spell out or say, "Unless it's different in your game." or "Unless you don't use creature types or don't want to have the one-foot height restriction at your table."
It's also not RAW to say that disguise self lets you make yourself look like a creature that wouldn't be your creature type or that talking to someone under a purely visual glamer counts as interacting and being able to see through it, whether you can see them or not, such as hearing them around a corner or while wearing a blindfold.
When you try and say something like, "Anything is possible with magic!" so there's no limits! That kind of falls flat when the spells themselves have limits or at least stated power scope or parameters. It's like you arguing with your GM that you should be able to cast true strike and get a +5 bonus to attacks over 4 rounds... "because magic exists!" And you try and convince them by saying the math adds up (true) and you'll only get the 'ignores miss chance' on the first round to keep it fair. That can all be true, but it's not the spell. It would be like you claiming bless should give a higher to hit bonus because another 1st-level spell can give +20 to hit. It's all true, but that's not how the spells work.
You end up like [some people] who act like they're being generous or clever when they see a spell that reads "...deals 1d6 fire damage per caster level (maximum 50 fire damage per casting)" and claim that changing the damage type with Energy Admixture or some other ability is intended to break the damage limitation of the spell "because they said 'fire'", when it clearly isn't intended. They certainly could have just said 'damage' but it's also unreasonable to require them to predict every possible alteration or interaction possible in a game where you are literally saying "Anything's possible!"
When a druid uses wildshape he is in the form of an animal. When a humanoid sorcerer uses his bloodline power to grow claws he is in the form of a humanoid. There are also humanoid races that grant the characters those features.
There is nothing in the description of the spell that prevents you from adding those features. The spell does specify that other than the limitations listed the extent of the change is up to the caster. That is RAW.
When a druid uses wildshape he is in the form of an animal. When a humanoid sorcerer uses his bloodline power to grow claws he is in the form of a humanoid.
No one is saying you can't have claws, or pointy teeth, a tail. But if the appearance would fall into the parameters of another creature type. You cannot take that appearance. That is RAW.
Quote:
There are also humanoid races that grant the characters those features.
No one is saying that you can't look like a creature with any of those features. It is NOT the features that are in question. It is the extent of the change. If you are a Humanoid, you 100% can use disguise self to look like a creature that has claws. Like a tabaxi. You can turn into a kitsune and have one, two, or nine tails. Those are reasonable. You could even have no tail and have it look like a stump where it was cut off.
Once you start trying to claim you look like a kitsune with 15 tails, or that they look like tentacles or have scorpion stingers on them, then you are going too far. How far is too far? It varies, because expecting there to be 72 pages of exacting limits for what is undoubtedly and undeniably such an open-ended option as any illusion spell is unreasonable. Some humans are below 4 feet in height or greater than 7. That doesn't make them sub-human or less than human (or greater than human). That doesn't mean that every single human using disguise self will be able to appear at any height that a human can be. There are clearly limits imposed on the spell, both stated, and implied.
Disguise self can 100% allow you to look like a Medusa. You 100% can look like a Choker. You 100% can look like a Beholder... [wait for it]... IF you are already that Creature type (Monstrous Humanoid or Aberration) and are within 1 foot of its height. But that doesn't mean all Monstrous Humanoids or all Aberrations can look like a Medusa or a Choker or a Beholder.
There are limits based on the wording that DOES exist in the spell. While that wording at first says 'you can't change your creature type' we know that doesn't mean actually changing your creature type, because the spell doesn't do that, we know it means the appearance of another creature type, and that's reinforced when they next say 'although you can appear as another subtype'. That second line doesn't change the limitations before it. You still can't appear as the same creature type taller or shorter than one foot.
So if you are are a Humanoid (the default assumption here so I don't have to keep spelling it out all the time) the extent of your changes can't go across a threshold where something would appear to be a Monstrous Humanoid (or an Animal, or a Dragon, or an Aberration). That is RAW.
Unfortunately for people that want to make a form with new features, RAW states that a Monstrous Humanoid resembles a Humanoid with Monstrous or Animalistic features.
Monstrous Humanoid wrote:
Monstrous humanoids are similar to humanoids, but with monstrous or animalistic features. They often have magical abilities as well.
I think we all reasonably consider claws, fangs, fur, tails, etc. as animalistic features, even if some humans can have those features "In a world where magic is a thing and anything is possible!" That is because it is written in common language and speech. That is RAW.
So yes, if a Humanoid subtype has those features they are an exception and loophole (good on you for buying their splatbook or expanded rule guide or using Google Search), but once you step beyond what that creature type (not class) typically looks like, and start adding in features, you would be appearing as a Monstrous Humanoid. This is like you trying to claim "Police officers and EMTs can exceed the speed limit sometimes, so I can exceed the speed limit (even adding 'sometimes') even though I am not a police officer or EMT.'
Even the OP knows that it isn't directly stated, because it would take tomes and tomes of descriptions to cover everything for a topic that ultimately will always fall to the GM deciding "this is okay, and that is okay... but this and that is not okay."
