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I've been working on a Kinetic Knight build, and a question came up. I'm hoping to go TWF (kinetic blade and my shield), but the archetype also works best with heavy armor, so I'm trying to avoid the DEX prerequisite on TWF. I could dip two levels of Ranger or Slayer, but I found a combination that may allow me to stay single-classed.
The Kinetic Warrior ability of the Kinetic Knight says:
Kinetic Warrior (Ex): The kinetic knight can use her Constitution score in place of her Intelligence score when qualifying for combat feats. This ability counts as having Combat Expertise for the purpose of feat prerequisites.
So Kinetic Warrior means I can qualify to take Artful Dodge, because my CON will meet the INT 13 requirement. Artful Dodge reads:
Artful Dodge (Combat)
You are practiced at avoiding attacks when outnumbered.
Prerequisite(s): Int 13.
Benefit: If you are the only character threatening an opponent, you gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC against that opponent.
Special: The Artful Dodge feat acts as the Dodge feat for the purpose of satisfying prerequisites that require Dodge.
You can use Intelligence, rather than Dexterity, for feats with a minimum Dexterity prerequisite.
That looks like it means I could use INT for the DEX requirement on TWF and then use my CON in place of INT to qualify using only CON, which will be well above the DEX 15 requirement.
The author of the Kinetic Knight Archetype said I should expect table variation HERE, and to talk to my local GMs. One of them has said he isn't sure, and to try the Rules forum. So here I am. This specific character is for PFS, but a general understanding of the interaction would be good regardless.
This thread is meant to be about the interaction of this class ability and this feat, not about the build in general or whether TWF is a good idea. Details on that are in the other thread. I'm just trying to figure out if this "double substitution" is legal, unknown, or if there's been something somewhere saying you can't do this type of thing, so I can take that into account when finalizing the build. Thanks in advance.
You've already linked my previous statement, so I'm mostly just here to dot the thread. ^_^
I think that it is clear the Artful dodge allows you to use intelligence rather than Dex for feat qualification and I think it clear that Kinetic Warrior replaces Con with Int,
I think by RAW you are clearly right and should be able to take TWF based off Con. I am far from certain that this is intended , but I can think of no reason why it is not valid.
I would almost certainly allow it as I don't see a great disaster from allowing it an the feat tax of artful dodge will set you back a fair amount anyway, particularly as shield and weapon fighting is fairly feat intensive.
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I have my doubts that this will work, expect a lot of table variation, two-weapon fighting might be a bad call in any case. I play a kineticist focussed on kinetic blade and hitting is by far the greatest challenge.
My suggestion would be to go for something like weapon focus, iron will and or toughness.
I'd say the way it's worded makes it sound like it works, through the transitive property. But I would expect the rules team to rule against it, as it's fairly abusable.
I play a kineticist focussed on kinetic blade and hitting is by far the greatest challenge.
That's a little surprising. Even if you are using a physical blast, your attack bonus should be fairly high.
As suggested in the original post, I recommend moving to the other thread for build advice and discussion. There's already been some discussion of accuracy there. ^_^
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I play a kineticist focussed on kinetic blade and hitting is by far the greatest challenge.That's a little surprising. Even if you are using a physical blast, your attack bonus should be fairly high.
Kineticist are 3/4 BAB and are generally unable to increase their attack bonus like others can with +5 longswords. So they late behind the curve and have troubke hitting the "average" monster by CR on an 11.
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We seem to have swapped threads and discussions. The rule discussion is in the Advice thread, and the advice is here.
The question of whether a more general FAQ request would get an official response came up in the other thread. Does anyone know any RPG line feats or abilities that allow you to substitute one stat for another for prereqs or any other reason?
I am not aware of any precedent for the "transitive property" applying to stat substitution.
I think that's mostly a feature of "there aren't that many ways to combine multiple stat substitutions."
I think we generally, however, apply feats and class features in series rather than parallel (i.e. the way you would read them) so I feel like this should work.
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I am not aware of any precedent for the "transitive property" applying to stat substitution.I think that's mostly a feature of "there aren't that many ways to combine multiple stat substitutions."
I think we generally, however, apply feats and class features in series rather than parallel (i.e. the way you would read them) so I feel like this should work.
My impression is that we - and by "we" here I'm mostly meaning the developers - don't do either one. We apply them in isolation. Rules element A affects rules element B, full stop. If something else affects rules element B, it's irrelevant... and likely to be FAQ'd into oblivion if too much of a fuss is made about it.
I think this works.
This is a nice work around if you have low Int and dex but high Con
We apply them in isolation. Rules element A affects rules element B, full stop. If something else affects rules element B, it's irrelevant.
If that were the case then you could do things like use a circlet of persuasion and the conversion inquisition simultaneously and you emphatically can't. It's not exactly the same rule, but interpreting this rule the way you're suggesting would certainly be logically inconsistent at the least.
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The only RPG line examples I can think of are skill related. Pragmatic Activator, for example, lets you use INT instead of CHA for Use Magic Device. I don't think you could apply a Circlet of Persuasion to the skill when you're using INT, so that's an instance where it's working against the player to consider the skill now an INT skill.
Similarly, I think you would be able to use Tireless Logic to roll twice and pick the best result, since UMD is now an Intelligence-based check.
Neither of those are quite the same situation as what's going on here, but both would show the substituted ability as being applied when considering other abilities.
Also, just to note, Kinetic Warrior is a class feature, not a feat, if that makes any difference. Feat order is not a concern here. EDIT: I should say, feat order doesn't factor into this particular instance. It may be important in other instances. Also, ninja'd on the Circlet of Persuasion example by Squiggit.
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I mean if "things that require INT, instead require CON" and "things that require DEX, instead require INT" exist in separate isolated boxes, I can feed "Improved TWF" into the latter box to get an INT 17 requirement and then feed it into the former box to get a CON 17 requirement.
It seems like the algorithm ought to be:
- Can I take Improved TWF?
- Do I have 17 DEX (& various other prereqs we're ignoring here)?
- I have Artful Dodger
- Do I have 17 INT?
- I have Kinetic Warrior.
- Do I have 17 CON?
- Yes, so I can take Improved TWF.
Feat prerequisites support the idea that you can apply benefits gained simultaneously to support one ability with the other. For instance, a fighter at first level can take power attack because of the +1 BAB they gain at that same level. And they can also take furious focus as a bonus feat, because of the feat and +1 BAB they gain at that same level.
On a related note, it should also work with a Swashbuckler using CHA instead of INT
Accuracy Derail:
Kineticist are 3/4 BAB and are generally unable to increase their attack bonus like others can with +5 longswords. So they late behind the curve and have troubke hitting the "average" monster by CR on an 11.I play a kineticist focussed on kinetic blade and hitting is by far the greatest challenge.That's a little surprising. Even if you are using a physical blast, your attack bonus should be fairly high.
But they also have elemental overflow, giving +1 to attack for every 3 levels they gain, to a max of +6 to attack at level 18. In addition to this, that same ability can also give a +2 to +6 bonus to their prime physical ability score, giving them an additional +1 to +3 to attack.
And then there's the fact that at level 7 you will very likely have a secondary energy blast to bypass armor against high armor foes. Or, if you choose to do something like going double earth, you have options like the magnetic infusion to increase your accuracy on subsequent hits.
No, it never becomes an int requirement you need to qualify with.
You have an int requirement, you can use int or con to fill that.
You have a dex requirement, you can use dex or int to fill that.
But there's no "dex to new int that you can now sub con for". Cause to qualify for the feat you need dex, and can use int with that feat. Since you don't need int to qualify for the feat there's nothing to sub con in for.
No, it never becomes an int requirement you need to qualify with.
You have an int requirement, you can use int or con to fill that.
You have a dex requirement, you can use dex or int to fill that.
But there's no "dex to new int that you can now sub con for". Cause to qualify for the feat you need dex, and can use int with that feat. Since you don't need int to qualify for the feat there's nothing to sub con in for.
Technically Kinetic Warrior never talks about feats requiring int but ising int to satisfy requirements
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We apply them in isolation. Rules element A affects rules element B, full stop. If something else affects rules element B, it's irrelevant.If that were the case then you could do things like use a circlet of persuasion and the conversion inquisition simultaneously and you emphatically can't. It's not exactly the same rule, but interpreting this rule the way you're suggesting would certainly be logically inconsistent at the least.
That's not what I'm suggesting at all. I'm saying you only ever seem to get one thing to change. If something else is trying to change it at the same time, you either ignore it or it gets errata'd to make sure you can't change it the same way. So things like your example fit that pattern perfectly - they are exclusive to one another.
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So things like your example fit that pattern perfectly - they are exclusive to one another.
But they aren't exclusive. The result of one directly effects the result of the other. That's literally the opposite of applying it in isolation.
Besides, it works the other way around too.
Technically Kinetic Warrior never talks about feats requiring int but ising int to satisfy requirementsNo, it never becomes an int requirement you need to qualify with.
You have an int requirement, you can use int or con to fill that.
You have a dex requirement, you can use dex or int to fill that.
But there's no "dex to new int that you can now sub con for". Cause to qualify for the feat you need dex, and can use int with that feat. Since you don't need int to qualify for the feat there's nothing to sub con in for.
I don't know what the "right" answer is, but Chess Pwn makes a good point. You're just splitting hairs on the "requiring Int" vs. "using Int to satisfy requirements."
Ability 1 says you can use A when B is required.
Ability 2 says you can use B when C is required.
Ability 3 requires C. Ability 2 did not change the requirement, it only allowed you to use B instead of C, so Ability 1 never activates.
EDIT: E.g. "TWF the Feat" still requires Dex 15. Artful Dodger only allowed you to satisfy the requirement with an Int 15. Possessing Artful Dodger did not change "TWF the Feat" so that it now lists Int 15 as a prerequisite.
You say splitting hairs, but I think it's a pretty meaningful distinction. Kinetic Warrior says you can use Con instead of Int when qualifying for feats and... I don't see how you can argue you're not using your Int to qualify for feats with Artful Dodge.
Your example then falls apart because it hinges on the idea that Kinetic Warrior references the feat directly or specifies feat requirements. It doesn't.
Incidentally, Artful Dodge very much does. So just by comparing and contrasting the two directly you can see that Kinetic Warrior uses different language.
That said, expecting some table variance given the confusion here unreasonable, so consulting a GM ahead of time or avoiding it in PFS is a good idea.
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Yes, I can see "use her Constitution in place of her Intelligence score" as:
Ability 1 makes the following true: A = B
Ability 2 says you can use B when C is required.
Ability 3 requires C. Ability 1 allows you to substitute the value for A in place of the value for B, which you then processes through Ability 2 to qualify for C.
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I think allowing this as RAW, and thus with no safeguards, opens a maelstrom of potential problems because the designers of this kind of replacement abilities most likely were not considering the possibilities of stacking replacements when they made their design and thus did not include balancing provisions for this kind of case
Tldr : stacking this kind of replacement is not balanced
I would allow it at my table only with very careful consideration and with the understanding that the permission can be revoked at any time should it prove unbalanced
I don't think it's that bad if it does interact. There are only two cases where this is an issue (at the moment):
1. Swashbucklers with Swashbuckler's Finesse class ability and the Artful Dodge feat who want to use their CHA in place of DEX for feat qualification.
At the cost of their AC and Reflex Saves, they can boost their CHA, (increases panache and face skills) to take Dodge (CHA 13), Wind Stance (CHA 15), Lightning Stance (CHA 17), Two-Weapon Fighting (CHA 15) and other TWF feats. Since they're a light armor class, tanking their DEX is detrimental to their effectiveness. That seems balanced, if not coming out on the worse side of the power curve.
2. One archetype of one class: the Kinetic Knight (with the Kinetic Warrior class ability) and the Artful Dodge feat who wants to use his CON in place of DEX for feat qualification.
At the cost of their AC and Reflex Saves, they can boost their CON (increase HP, Fort Save, blade damage [maybe], and any substance infusion DCs) to take Dodge (CHA 13), Wind Stance (CHA 15), Lightning Stance (CHA 17), Two-Weapon Fighting (CHA 15) and other TWF feats to use in conjunction with Shield feats (and absorbing a penalty to hit on a 3/4 BAB class). That seems balanced. They can already tank DEX for CON without any feats or class abilities, so all they're really getting is taking Artful Dodge as a feat tax to ultimately attack more often with an inferior weapon (shield) but hit less often with both weapons due to TWF penalties.
EDIT: If a class or archetype ever made STR count as INT to qualify for feats, then there might be an argument against processing through Artful Dodge.
Currently, Str can count as Dex or Cha in certain things.
Wild Coercion (Prestige Mammoth Rider 1) Use strength in addition to charisma with wild empathy (works a intimidate)
The Flexing Arm (Faith Trait:Kurgess) use strength instead of dexterity to escape artist checks
Belt of Mighty Hurling: use strength to hit with thrown weapons instead of dex
Str doesn't do enough, kidding.
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I think the larger point is that stacking replacement effects is potentially dangerous in its ability to create SAD characters. But I think the place to be careful is "introducing more replacement effects" rather than "allowing them to overlap."
Kinetic Warrior is interesting specifically because while the Kineticist depends almost wholly on two physical attributes (CON and the one they attack with), it needs to have both of those *really* high because of how burn works and the dearth of accuracy fixes compared to other 3/4 BAB classes. So it seems like an acknowledgement that "you can't really afford to sink a bunch in INT, but you can still have combat expertise if you want."
Letting people get around onerous attribute requirements for feats has a long and proud history in Pathfinder; I mean rangers were dumping Dex and TWFing as far back as the CRB right?
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Do you have an example of what's unbalanced by allowing this?I think allowing this as RAW, and thus with no safeguards, opens a maelstrom of potential problems because the designers of this kind of replacement abilities most likely were not considering the possibilities of stacking replacements when they made their design and thus did not include balancing provisions for this kind of case
Tldr : stacking this kind of replacement is not balanced
It works the other way around actually : can we be certain that a combination of such replacement abilities will not end up unbalanced by itself while each component left alone is completely balanced ?
If the answer is Yes, then no problem
If the answer is No then you are asking designers to take into account not only the balance issues that their replacement ability will raise by itself but also those raised by combining it with other replacement abilities as well
A daunting prospect indeed and one that could well push designers away from creating any kind of replacement ability at all
The game would end up poorer for it IMO
Oracle's TWF using CHA for attack, damage, and AC. The oracle can be 7 str and 7 dex but get everything those control over to oracle with a dip into swashbuckler.
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Contributor
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Desna's Shooting Star provides Cha to attack and damage with starknives, largely negating Strength.
Various oracle revelations substitute Cha for Dex for AC and Reflex saves.
One level of swashbuckler lets the character use Cha for Int; by the original post's argument, the character could then use Artful Dodge to use Cha for Dex, picking up the Two-Weapon Fighting chain.
As usual, Desna's Shooting Star is why we can't have nice things. ^_^
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You could use Artful Dodge to switch to INT instead. True it's a second stat, but you can still dump STR and DEX to 7 and have something else controlling what they do. Or you can go two levels of Ranger or Slayer and pick up TWF without any prereqs at all.
Also, I missed the TWF in Chess Pwn's original post and only saw CHA to attack, damage, and AC.
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It works the other way around actuallyNo it doesn't: you're claiming something is unbalanced and I'm asking you for examples. It appears you don't have any and that sort of undermines your stated position.
You claim there is a 'maelstrom of potential problems'. Name one.
Otherwise you're just arguing on a hypothetical, which is nonsense.
I am not claiming that something is unbalanced as in clearly creating problems right now
I am looking at this from a designer perspective and saying that something is not balanced as in not designed to be balanced for this specific case of using a chain of replacement abilitiesI am not claiming that the OP's combo is broken or even that a currently existing combo is broken
I am saying that allowing this combo as RAW implies that any similar combo in the future will have to be considered RAW too regardless of whether it is actually balanced or unbalanced
I agree that this is hypothetical from a player or GM's point of view, but it is a big part of a designer's actual job to consider the ramifications of his creation to make sure that it stays balanced
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Say hypothetically, there was a feat that allowed any attribute to count as any other attribute for purposes of qualifying for feats (and no other purpose), would that even be a problem?
I feel like it's more likely to elicit complaints from people upset about the "feat tax" that lets them use CHA to qualify for TWF feats to use with Starknives, than people actually alarmed by the characters this enables (again, Shooting Star is the problem here.)
The first thing I thought when I looked at the kinetic knight's ability to use Con for Int was the Redirect Attack feat. Int 15, Dex 15, Dodge are the prereqs; Con 15, Artful Dodge for the knight. It does seem good, but then it's a very good feat for any character who might qualify anyway - many rogues, a few wizards, etc. It's banned in PFS probably for that reason.
Further checks didn't turn up other interesting ways to use this substitution so I'm not sure it's a problem.
Oracle's TWF using CHA for attack, damage, and AC. The oracle can be 7 str and 7 dex but get everything those control over to oracle with a dip into swashbuckler.
To pull this off you need so many feats that not even at level 20
Oracle's TWF using CHA for attack, damage, and AC. The oracle can be 7 str and 7 dex but get everything those control over to oracle with a dip into swashbuckler.To pull this off you need so many feats that not even at level 20
... three feats? That's too many feats?
1 artful dodge2 divine fighting technique
3 twf
Four if you need it to init with noble scion.
What more were you thinking were required?
Oracle's TWF using CHA for attack, damage, and AC. The oracle can be 7 str and 7 dex but get everything those control over to oracle with a dip into swashbuckler.To pull this off you need so many feats that not even at level 20... three feats? That's too many feats?
1 artful dodge
2 divine fighting technique
3 twf
Four if you need it to init with noble scion.What more were you thinking were required?
Maybe several more feats in the two-weapon fighting chain if you want to be better at it.
Oracle's TWF using CHA for attack, damage, and AC. The oracle can be 7 str and 7 dex but get everything those control over to oracle with a dip into swashbuckler.
How late in levels before this is decent?
Can you write the full build.
Oracle's TWF using CHA for attack, damage, and AC. The oracle can be 7 str and 7 dex but get everything those control over to oracle with a dip into swashbuckler.How late in levels before this is decent?
Can you write the full build.
This seems good enough more or less from level 2 to me. Where would you place it as being decent?
Human flying blade swashbuckler 1 / warsighted lore oracle X. Fate's favored trait of course.
1: Noble Scion (scion of war), Divine Fighting Technique (Desna's shooting star)
2: Martial Flexibility
3: Artful Dodge
4: Sidestep Secret
5: Point Blank Shot
6: -
7: Precise Shot
8: Martial Flex (2 feats)
9: TWF
10: -
11: Improved TWF
12: Martial Flex (3 feats)
13: Quicken Spell
So human is decent at lv2 when it's getting cha to AC thus giving you AC and attack and damage all going. Non-humans wait till lv3. you can be TWF with CHA as soon as lv3 if you don't need cha to init.
If you're okay going last in a fight
1 divine fighting and artful dodge
3 TWF
if you want the init.
1 noble scion - you suck at combat worse than a dex magus
3 divine fighting you now can combat.
5 artful dodge
7 TWF
9 ITWF
Human bumps everything up 1 except ITWF and gives you an extra feat to play with and makes you good at combat lv1. TWF here is a later style developed to help you do damage, which is fine since up until here you only need to spend money on 1 weapon, so you can just by the second and upgrade it once you can start using it.