So, I am really interested in archetypes that drastically/significantly alter what would be a, or rather THE, key feature or aspect of a class. The reason I'm putting this post here is twofold: firstly, I have not played every class, so I'm not necessarily sure what are actually KEY aspects of each class, and secondly... I just wanted some help with it, really.
Some examples would be:
1. Phantom Thief, a Rogue without Sneak Attack
2. Mooncursed, a Barbarian that wild-shapes instead of Rages
I think that not every class might have such an Archetype (and some might have more than one), but I'm curious as to how many do, and am just looking to compile a list.
Also, it might not even be a class feature (but probably will be). For example, the Gray Paladin doesn't have to be Lawful Good, which perhaps even more than Lay on Hands or Smite Evil is the iconic aspect of being a Paladin. Anyway, just looking for some help making this list. Just because it intrigues me.
Thanks!
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Nature Fang Druid exchanges Wildshape for Slayer class features including talents and sneak attack.
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Sohei, a monk who's a weapon expert and a rider rather than a weaponless fighter.
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Wow! Good answers! Thanks! I'm also thinking if a Bloodrager has one, it's Untouchable Rager, because I think (besides Bloodrage) a huge part of a Bloodrager is that it's a full BAB class with arcane casting, so I think losing that casting is substantial.
I also think maybe a White-haired Witch, because it becomes more melee oriented and loses Hex, right?
Maybe a Feral Hunter for a Hunter? No companion seems to be very counter-Hunter.
Also, Spell Warrior loses Inspired Rage, so I feel like that's the one for the Skald.
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Guide ranger - swaps out favored enemy for ranger's focus (basically pseudo-smite)
Synthesist summoner - turns your pet into a martial buff, makes you do less casting due to action economy
Archaeologist bard - trades out bardic performance for luck and roguey abilities
Tetori monk - replaces flurry of blows and the various monk movement features to become the ultimate inescapable grappler
Eldritch Scion magus - prepared Int caster becomes spontaneous Cha caster
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What would people say the more defining characteristic of a Warpriest is?
Fervor or Blessings?
And what about an Investigator?
Alchemy or Inspiration?
Most of these are great! Thanks guys!
Does anyone think that 9th level casters could have such an archetype? Especially for Arcane casters, casting is really their whole deal, at least for the core classes. I mean, even for Archetypes like Spellslinger, with fewer spells, I feel like they're not different enough for what I'm looking for. Which is fine, I just want to know if anyone feels differently.
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Inspiration seems more defining... but that is based partly on that there are several archetypes that replace alchemy. Certainly alchemy is a key aspect of the base investigator - it is a huge part of what it gets from one of its parent classes, after all.
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The Spiritualist has not one but two archetypes (Phantom Blade and Ectoplasmatist) that turn the Spiritualist from a pet-based class into a psychic magus.
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What would people say the more defining characteristic of a Warpriest is?
Fervor or Blessings?
Fervor. I wouldn't bat an eyelid at an archetype that replaced blessings, but Fervor would need something big to replace it. It defines the class.
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Mesmerists have the Vexing Daredevil which shifts the Mesmerist's stare from an all-out controlling tool to fancy feinting techniques.
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Some examples would be:
1. Phantom Thief, a Rogue without Sneak Attack
I wouldn't count this one - the key feature of the Thief/Rogue class has always been its peerless facility for skill use (they had skills and skill points before anyone else did!). Sneak Attack is a major feature, of course, but it's really secondary to their raison d'etre. You could say that the Phantom Thief is the opposite of what you're talking about; it doubles down on the class's primary feature.
Moving on:
The Sha'ir Occultist Archetype not only replaces the class's normal Implements with a bevy of minor elemental familiars, but it also changes the magical school system they use (I think the Archetype is a severe disappointment to those of us who would like a worthier successor to the 2nd Edition AL-QADIM Sha'ir, but that's beside the point)!
Similarly, you could say that Elementalist Wizards are profoundly different from 'orthodox' Wizards - they're still all about casting spells, of course, but they subscribe to a completely different School system.
The Gunslinger's raison d'etre is, of course, using guns, so the Bolt Ace is radically different (not to mention its a variant that could fit in campaign settings that actual gun-slinging Gunslingers wouldn't normally be permitted).
The Martial Artist Monk doesn't get a Ki Pool (nor does it have the alignment restriction Monks have always had).
A Cavalier is, by definition, somebody who rides a horse, so Cavalier Archetypes that lose their Mount (i.e. the Castellan and Daring Champion) definitely fit what you're talking about.
The Archeologist Bard Archetype loses Bardic Performance.
The True Silvered Throne Shaman Archetype loses the normal 'primitive, nature-y mage with a familiar' spiel in exchange for being an 'urban high society mage with a big tome' type.
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Stonelord Paladin. It's dwarf only, but basically rebuilda the paladin from the ground up. It even replaces smite (and maybe detect) evil.
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Again, I really appreciate all the responses! I guess the reason I included the Phantom Thief was because it should function differently then a regular Rogue, at least in Combat. I mean, there's not as much point in wracking your brain to determine how to get your foe flatfooted if you're not getting sneak attack damage...
Similarly, a Druid with no Wild Shape and Slayer features, or Traps and fewer spells, will play differently than a typical Druid... I guess that's kind of what I mean...
Changes to a class from an archetype that have a major impact on making the class 'play' differently.
A ton of the examples are great, but I personally feel like switching from prepared to spontaneous casting, while markedly different, doesn't change that one is still playing a caster, whether a 6th or 9th level caster.
I was wondering if there was an Alchemist that replaces BOTH bombs and mutagen! Thanks! I feel like not having one of them is fairly different, but Alchemists are usually built one way or the other, right? So, no Mutagens? Be a bomber. No bombs? Be a mutagen imbibing melee character. But neither? Now THAT'S different.
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The Death Druid loses wildshape, their animal companion, and some nature-based minor features in return for a Spiritualist phantom and necromancy spells & features. I'd say it qualifies.
The Eldritch Archer magus archetype changes out melee-based spell combat for ranged. So, maybe?
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For the Paladin there is the Martyr and Oath of the People's Council that both replaces Smite Evil with Bardic Performance.
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Druid:
Kraken Caller: Instead of turning into an animal (except Water or Aquatic or Ambhibious animals);, In own form or while whilshaped can grow tentacles.
Also can shoot clouds of ink (which is profitable I guess, sell the ink)
Skinshaper: can turn into a better Monk as a class ability. Still have animal companion. Still have spells. I feel sorry for the monk.
Supernaturalist: Can cast Psychic spells as normal druid spells
Swarm Monger: Swarm animal companion, turn into a swarm later
Best idea take Figment archetype for it: then it has 1/4th hp as a familiar but can't die permanently and when you change to a swarm it suddenly has full hps (not half since it gains temp = to 1/2 master and loses the penalty applied by Figment though it loses Improved evasion regardless).
Reincarnated Druid: Undying Druid
Troll Fury: Bard but abilitied work on Trolls only (guess your allies can take that human feat to count as a troll).
Urushiol: become immune to poison by 4th level. Also good with poison.
Wild Whisperer: Investigater Inspiration pool and talents
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Eldritch Scrapper Sorcerer tries to make you into a martial class. (It fails utterly, mind you) It doesn't lose much beyond losing some bloodline powers, though.
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Alchemists also have the metamorph, which replaces extracts and bombs.
For that matter the investigator has several archetypes which replace their alchemical extract 'casting' with something else - panache/deeds, a few SLAs, or outright 6-level spellcasting.
An unlettered arcanist shifts from the sorc/wiz spell list to the witch spell list
Dunno what would count as the central focus of the ranger, but the dandy ranger probably changes it mechanically and by concept. Similarly with the base hunter and the courtly hunter.
Eldritch scoundrel rogues trade half their sneak attack, rogue talents and base skill points for 6-level sorc/wiz casting and the ability to power ninja tricks with it.
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The Puppet Master archetype turns the Magus into a potent enchanter/illusionist, allowing you to focus on casting over combat. Combined with the Hexcrafter, you end up with a fun 6 level Illusionist-Witch save-or-suck caster.
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Monk
Sensei Monk: Bardic Inspire Courage
Healing hand: Healing others
Terra Cotta Monk: Trapspotter, but sadly no trapfinding, although you get +4 extra perception for non-magic traps (so never worry about pits unless created by Create Pit spell).
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Anyone can spot magical traps, it takes trapfinding to Disable them.
Exactly.
The monk gets free trapspotter Rogue talent, but he is limited to non-magic traps.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Bards key aspect would be bardic performance, right? At least half the archetypes mess with this in some way or another, from sandman bards to jugglers to magicians to court bards to geishas...
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of course, sometimes, you don't even need an archetype to throw out the usual paradigms of a class.
swashbucklers can work very well as a str based class. every class feature practicallh lessens or removes the need to go dex based (good reflex, initiative bonus, lots of ac with sword and board)
druids can abandon wildshaping into animals entirely and go with elementals. this is unique, since elementals have hands to use weapons. so you could just buy a large sized weapon and armor, and just be a big two hander with natural reach. you can just put on armor after waking up and shaping, and never have to worry about the ac problems of other druids.
What do people think about the Arcanist and Shaman?
What are their key features, and which Archetypes change them most?
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Almost every bard archetype removes Inspire Courage.
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Almost every bard archetype removes Inspire Courage.
True, but I feel like the ones that buff their allies in combat with their other/altered abilities are still being very "bardic." Meaning, many of them still play like bards.
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Anyone can spot magical traps, it takes trapfinding to Disable them.Exactly.
The monk gets free trapspotter Rogue talent, but he is limited to non-magic traps.
Spotting magical traps is still useful, even if you can't disable them. You might be able to trigger it safely, or just ensure most of the party is safe when the barbarian runs through it.
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And what about an Investigator?
Alchemy or Inspiration?
Questioner investigator. Basically a bard archaeologist that uses INT and inspiration instead of WIS and luck.
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The Exciter spiritualist archetype makes you a psychic bloodrager.
The Martyr paladin archetype makes you bard preacher type.
The Eldritch Scoundrel removes a lot of rogue stuff to make you more of a spellcaster.
Pact Wizard makes you not only a wizard, but a witch and oracle as well :3
What do people think about Cleric? Personally, I think if there's any, it's the Cardinal, mostly because I think it's one of the (if not THE) only archetype that changes BAB, and that's kind of intense. Also, it goes from 2 skills to 6 skills a level.
I think one of the main things about a Cleric, at least at lower levels, is that it's pretty good at everything. Like, it's just a solid class. Take away that 3/4 BAB, add skills, lose medium armor and shields, lose spontaneous curing, and you've now got some sort of "semi-squishy Buffing Wizard" skill monkey. Pretty different, no?
I've got a pretty good list together for myself, but I'm still struggling with:
Wizard
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Shaman
People have made good suggestions for these, but I think I failed in making myself clear enough. Something like a different 9th level spell list is certainly a radical change, but its still a 9th level spell list, so you're still playing a versatile squishy caster for the Wizard.
As for the Shaman... I don't know. They all feel like they'd play just like a regular Shaman. I mean not every class has one....
I feel like Sorcerer and Slayer don't, for example.
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Wizard: Spellslinger. You gain FOUR opposed schools, in exchange for a gun and the ability to shoot spells out of the gun.
Sorcerer: psychic bloodline. You're basically a cha-based psychic with the sorc/wiz spell list. Adding undercasting to sorcerer is huge.
Why? Most of the undercastable spells are weak, the rest are merely ok. You're not thinking this let's you undercast the Summon Monster line or something wacky like that, are you?
The thing with the cleric? Differences in the build overshadow those from the archetype. You can make a useful cleric with their good stats all mental ones, and it'll play a lot like the cardinal.
Similarly with shamans. Wizards you have to really work at to make them non-squishy, but then the archetypes change less; even the spellslinger will seldom use their gun to fire actual bullets past early levels, and aside from having boosted DCs the spells are the same. The choice of traits often changes a wizard more than the archetype.
Build > archetype for slayers and sorcerers too. It's possible to make a fighter 1 / psychic bloodline sorcerer 9 / eldritch knight 10 into a full plate & tower shield tank, but none of that requires any archetype. Or a kitsune fey sorcerer doing enchantments, or an orc bloodline type blasting... all of these and more can be the unarchetyped sorcerer.
One fighter level and you can go around in Full Plate and a Tower Shield while having no chance of failing to cast a spell from the strongest list in the game, so...
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As for the Shaman... I don't know. They all feel like they'd play just like a regular Shaman. I mean not every class has one....
The True Silvered Throne feels pretty different to me (it's what mine is). A Familiar is a major class feature that's both asset and liability, and the True Silvered Throne loses that (although they do gain an adulterated Clockwork Spy in a few levels, but its primary function is generally to be a protective amulet). They also do some major switching around of class skills, too.
The thing with the cleric? Differences in the build overshadow those from the archetype. You can make a useful cleric with their good stats all mental ones, and it'll play a lot like the cardinal.
Similarly with shamans. Wizards you have to really work at to make them non-squishy, but then the archetypes change less; even the spellslinger will seldom use their gun to fire actual bullets past early levels, and aside from having boosted DCs the spells are the same. The choice of traits often changes a wizard more than the archetype.
Build > archetype for slayers and sorcerers too. It's possible to make a fighter 1 / psychic bloodline sorcerer 9 / eldritch knight 10 into a full plate & tower shield tank, but none of that requires any archetype. Or a kitsune fey sorcerer doing enchantments, or an orc bloodline type blasting... all of these and more can be the unarchetyped sorcerer.
That's basically how I feel for those classes for the most part.
In contrast, Archaeologist? Different feel and function. Puppetmaster? Different feel and function. Survivor Druid? Again, same. Mooncursed? At least a different feel, and a somewhat different function.But yeah, some classes just don't have one. I'm not sure Ranger does, but I think if there is one it's the Dandy.
I think the 9th level casters won't, with few exceptions. Wild Shape is just so iconic for a Druid that without it... like, are you even one? Ha! Kidding.
(I'm not looking for a breakdown regarding the fallacies or whatever in that JOKE.)
No, but it basically gives you many more spells known than a standard sorcerer. Yes they're not super powerful, but you have more options per spell level.
True, but having more 4th best options doesn't strike me as huge. (shrug)