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Paladinosaur wrote:
Also, I hope archetypes are closer to 5e, "build in" the class.

The problem: 5E archetypes aren't PF archetypes. They're PF sorcerer bloodline and PF wizard school specialization.

delabarre wrote:

A question about the Priest. It looks like they are built on the "wizard/sorcerer" framework (1/2 BAB, etc.) but with the Cleric/Oracle spell list. In comparison to a straight Cleric, in exchange for stepping down the less martial track, they gain...an extra domain, with attendant powers?

My concern here is that wizard/sorcerers have a spell list with spells that (by design) do more damage than the cleric/oracle list. It seems that if the Priest is meant to be a "divine wizard" there should be some extra damage capability baked in there somewhere.
Or did I miss something?

An extra domain, other daily-use abilities (divine gift - divine surge and smiting burst help with damage-dealing), slightly more skill points and arcanist-but-not-slower-spell-progression casting, in exchange for 1/2 BAB, d6 hit die, slower channel energy progression and slightly less spells/day from level 3 onward (although the difference is entirely in domain spells, otherwise the priest has slightly more spells/day until level 20).

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At least some of Paizo's writers seem think they count as enough of prepared casters to take Magaambyan Arcanist (which requires being able to prepare 3rd-level arcane spells), given that Arcane Anthology (and reprinted in the Adventurer's Guide, so it's been given the hardcover lookover too) has an Arcanist archetype that ties thematically and crucially directly mechanically to the prestige class without saying anything about the prepared spellcasting limitation being waived.

Minor wording issue: Skillful Pact says "as if you had taken the Signature Skill feat for both of them" despite now giving unlocks for three skills.

Drejk wrote:
I would suggest rename—there is already an aegis class.

Check two posts up from your post, though personally I disagree that there isn't much room for stuff like that now, after the official Occult classes. The Dreamscarred Psionics Augmented: Occult line makes a point of differences and connections between Psychic and Psionic, after all - and one of their fairly recent releases was an aegis archetype, so over 7 years it may be, but it is still an actively supported and expanded class.

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Yes, I'd heard if you take damage you lose the spell, no roll... which is the main reason I worried about some form of casting defensively, if obviously looking radically different (while reluctantly admitting that making it so spellcasters *cannot* cast a spell while threatened without being more likely than not to lose the spell does help in some ways).

I do wonder if there is anything like casting defensively in this system... I suppose it would help balance martials/casters if the answer is 'no', and technomancers and mystics are 6th-level casters and so would presumably be fairly likely to have at least some not-spellcasting options.

This is a bit embarrassing, but I haven't been able to find an official answer (either Paizo or WotC) for how constant/continuous SLAs interact with spells that require concentration (do not require concentration, only work when concentrated on but don't need to actually be cast, can be cast as if under the renewing a dispelled constant SLA rule...). Is there one I've missed, and if not, what was assumed for the Avowed's changed detect magic sense when it was changed?

Eltacolibre wrote:

Believe someone attempted one in 2012 or something.

But well nowadays, there are other options when it comes to people who wants to focus on shadow magic.

Oracle with the shadow mystery does everything a shadowcaster did...better with cleric spells on top of it + shadow themed bonus spells.

Not everything... it does not have the Shadowcaster's quirky but interesting not-exactly-spells system (that was one of the major disappointments of the shadowcaster conversions I've seen on this board - making them just a standard caster with shadowy theme kinda misses the point of making a shadowcaster class conversion) and it adds on divine and curse thematics that may not be desired.

I'd search for Peacenlove (sic) and shadowcaster. Check the 2014 version, though you need the 2012 version as a reference for path masteries.
EDIT: Ah, if one is willing to compromise on fluff and spellcasting, there is the possibility of a Shadow pact Avowed (a class I can greatly recommend in general).

What happened to the Mind subpact in Avowed 2? I can't find a mention of it in the changelog, but I can't find the subpact in the Avowed 2 document either. The Body subpact is still there, though.

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A revision would be interesting.

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Inspiration seems more defining... but that is based partly on that there are several archetypes that replace alchemy. Certainly alchemy is a key aspect of the base investigator - it is a huge part of what it gets from one of its parent classes, after all.

While it is not named Noble, a rogue with the phantom thief archetype makes a pretty decent noble - broad skill-base, able to dabble in things thanks to its broad education, can pick up the aristocrat/celebrity-themed vigilante social talents without being a vigilante.

What - non-racial - options are there to get mind-affecting effects at level 1 as an Avowed? I noticed frightening pulse doesn't actually say it is mind-affecting, and it seems a bit annoying in play to have an avowed character whose attunement does nothing until level 6.

I will admit that I was saddened by the loss of the Self pact gaining Charisma to armour when unarmoured... but that someone thought their character looked cool without armour is no excuse not to remove it, if needed for balance. And Self-pact Avowed does remain cool and fun to play regardless!

If I am reading it correctly, Of Two Minds in A2 can't be taken by an Avowed with Pactbound Guardian (since feats are not class features, so it is not an allied creature granted by a class feature). Is this deliberate, to keep it restricted to the tighter bonds of betrothed, witches and druids (among others)?

Very minor thing: Eyes of Fate isn't listed on the list of shapes and clauses.

Rysky wrote:
Radiance House has done some tweaking and kickstarting and now we have the Pactmaster (to avoid confusion with the other Occultist) from Grimoire of Lost Souls.

Good to know, I will admit I was mostly looking at d20pfsrd (*ahem*, limited budget).

Chengar Qordath wrote:

Yeah, Truenaming and Shadow Magic would both need a lot of reworking to get up to DSP standards, given the general consensus on both in 3.5 was that they were fun ideas/concepts but an absolute mess mechanically.

As far as other 3pp party publishers trying out the concept, I don't think that should stop DSP from making their own attempt so long as what they produce is unique enough to merit being its own product.

Shadow Magic had a significantly better reception than truenaming, so far I can tell, in that it was seen as more underpowered and with unclear things than truenaming's thoroughly broken (and personally, I did not feel I need to go to extreme optimisation to stay decent within the party when I played a shadowcaster in a 3.5 game without feeling overpowered either - though admittedly it used Mouseferatu's suggested alterations). Still, there would have been to reworking and re-theming, I just would hope it doesn't end up with shadow magic becoming spellcasting using spell slots again.

DSP actually have taken stabs at truenaming (search for Tzocatl), if not gotten far enough to be released - I think a more important issue for shadow magic and pact magic is that other 3pp companies have done them (somewhat for shadow magic; the closest I've found uses spellcasting, but pact magic has Radiance House's Occultist).

There is some overlap that make clear even without developer comments that psychic magic is a Pathfinder version on the theme - for instance, a couple of the psychic spells are clearly spell versions of psionic powers what with having the same name and similar effects, the psychic is an Int-based full spontaneous caster like the psion is an Int-based full spontaneous-by-default manifester, and the undercast thing gives the impression of a sort of inverse take on augmenting (possibly to be made more obverse with Undercast Surge). That said, there's definitely a fair bit of difference even beyond the basic spells using spell slots/powers using power points difference, even thematically (Dreamscarred's Psionics Augmented: Occult project touches on this since it is about the interaction of their take on Pathfinder psionics with psychic magic).

DungeonmasterCal wrote:
I'm very fortunate in that my group (well, all but one guy, anyway) is very open to 3PP material. I'm kind of picky about the publishers I allow, but DSP is definitely one of them. I've allowed Psionics and Path of War but haven't looked closely at Akashic magic yet. I thought the original concept from (forgive me, but I forget the title) from WotC was pretty interesting, so I hope to give it a better look soon. And as far as PoW goes, I may replace the Monk with the classes from it in my next campaign, which at the rate we get to play should be about a year from now.

Akashic Magic is inspired by Magic of Incarnum.

The Phantom Thief archetype for Rogues is pretty good at representing a noble of high education, though it is somewhat lacking on the combat front, what with losing sneak attack for more skill versatility and all.

Looking over A1 and A2 I noticed the only detecting magic options for Avowed seem to be limited to objects specifically (the Reveal Your Secrets clause) or automatic within 30 ft but limited to spells being cast on two very limited specific lists and requiring being a specific pact (Divine Pact) - is this a deliberate design choice?

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Adjule wrote:
It was nice, but what I think Paizo did better than WotC in that regard, is Paizo will continue to support each class they come up with in all their books they publish after releasing the new class. WotC, however, liked to pretend all classes outside of the PHB didn't exist once the book was released. It's my fear for 5th edition when they do end up releasing a fully playtested Mystic and Artificer class, that any other book they release will act like those never existed.

By precedent the Mystic has some advantage; the psionic classes did see some support in 3.5 - not as much as the PHB ones, but new powers and even sometimes feats and prestige classes strewn about various books (look at Magic of Incarnum or Dragon Magic, for instance) and the only not-in-core subsystem to get an (admittedly not exactly well-regarded) Complete supplement,. The Warlock followed behind (and specifically the warlock, not invocation-users) - but then, it became a PHB class from 4e onward.

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Eldred the Grey wrote:

I am pretty happy with pathfinder but I did like the PrCs that existed in 3/3.5 the only beef being that some of them actually encouraged some useless multiclass combos to enter. Case in point my all time favourite PrC is the Fochlucan Lyrist which was at its core a Bard/Druid combo but it also insisted on evasion. So now instead of just 2 classes and 5 levels now is 3 classes and 7 levels. But the fact that some of the anoyances that I had with 3/3.5 are gone(crossclass skills) but at times I feel PF is just a tad complicated.


To be fair, the Fochlucan Lyrist was more-or-less explicitly meant to hearken back to the 1e AD&D bard, which did require training as a thief (and a fighter, but that would be harder to smoothly put in as a PRC requirement without actually directly requiring fighter levels), with the druid thing coming in because the actual bard class was themed around adding in druidic abilities. Hence, a Bard/Rogue/Druid prestige class (in fact, the first college for them was Fochlucan). Actually starting out with the design goal of a bard-druid hybrid prestige class would probably have resulted in something somewhat different (possibly something better).

Penitents' Humanoid Origin ability says "If he chooses human..." but does not allow choosing human as written ("a penitents must choose a humanoid subtype from the following list: dwarf, elf, goblinoid, orc, tengu, kitsune, strix, vanara or reptilian").

Apologies for starting with that nitpick; I am quite enjoying Heart and Soul thus far!

I would say taking Birthright.net's 3e/3.5 efforts as a base, but I can't get to the site to remind myself how far they got.

Forrestfire wrote:
I hope you all are enjoying the current work that's up, and I'd like to thank everyone who's taken a look and/or given feedback. We'd be dead in the water without you all. I'll probably be back with another update to Avowed 1 in a couple of days, depending on how sick I continue to be. It'll include some fixes based on feedback and fixed math in a couple cases, as well as a real list of FCBs (finally!) and some more Final clauses.

As a belated thank-you I wanted to say that the only thing I haven't enjoyed about the current work is that I haven't been able to actually play an Avowed yet, because it seems like it would be really fun!

LordInsane wrote:
You might already have seen it, but aether rampage is still referred to as aether claws with Dragon pact, Fiend pact, Otyugh pact, in the iaijutsu paragraph in Special Rules and in the Aether Armory feat.

Aether Retaliation is also still referred to as Aether Shield in Shadow pact, Aether Armory and Mystic Reflexes.

You might already have seen it, but aether rampage is still referred to as aether claws with Dragon pact, Fiend pact, Otyugh pact, in the iaijutsu paragraph in Special Rules and in the Aether Armory feat.

The description for the Dark Lens repeats "Possession of the Dark Lens bestows a constant mind blank, protection from evil and protection from good effects upon its possessor." twice.

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The counter here is that we do have a FAQ for half-elves that says that they can take elf archetypes, so while the rationale is solid in its absence, there is more evidence than just the Lorekeeper's ability that elves for the purposes of archetypes at least *can* be creatures of the elf subtype. It would be strange if a half-drow, half-human could take elf archetypes but not full drow, no?

More Investigator archetypes that replaces Swift Alchemy but does not alter or replace Inspiration, Alchemy or Poison Lore, so as to give the Questioner archetype more ways to drop the potentially unthematic Swift Alchemy for something else.

UnArcaneElection wrote:

Professional Rogue

Professional Rogues don't know the desperation of a hard life like many Rogues, but also don't know the entitlement of the elites. Instead, they come from the ranks of the professional class, having succeeded in securing themselves a comfortable living but having grown dissatisfied with the comfortable monotony of their jobs. Professional Rogues seek new experiences to which they can put their education and practical skills to use.

Dependent Archetype

The Professional Rogue is a further modification of the Phantom Thief archetype, which is treated as the base class for the purpose of adjudicating archetype compatibility.

Practical Education

A Professional Rogue retains Trapfinding(*) as a standard Rogue, but only gains proficiency with Simple Weapons and Light Armor. This alters Refined Education and the Rogue's Weapon and Armor Proficiencies.

Middle-Class Education

A Professional Rogue is not restricted from selecting Social Grace and Vigilante Social Talents that would require being a craftsman or professional. This alters Broad Education.

Nerd Sense

Being from the professional class, Professional Rogues are attuned to mechanical dangers, but not as adept at social dangers. A Professional Rogue retains Trap Sense(*), but does not receive Sense Motive bonuses. This replaces Social Sense.

(*)The restored Trapfinding and Trap Sense class features may then be modified or replaced by another Rogue archetype, as long as the overall archetype combination otherwise obeys the rules for combining archetypes.

Why is it needed to note that you do not receive Sense Motive bonuses if it replaces the thing that would have granted you the Sense Motive bonus?

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blackbloodtroll wrote:

Um, the original Tiefling/Aasimar ages were in error.

They corrected them.

That's a good thing.

It is a good thing to correct errors, although TBH I prefer the PGTF-indicated ages to the Golarion ones. It is not a good thing when your internally consistent 'error' is corrected in such a way as to break the ageing if used as written, which is what happened somewhere along the way to the errata.

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Silver Surfer wrote:
Ecclesitheurge (and most other cleric archetypes TBH)... a more "caster" cleric that ends up being less effective at it than a vanilla cleric

TBH to be honest that was annoyed me most when I looked up Pathfinder's Cloistered Cleric archetype. I'd been playing with a Cloistered Cleric from Unearthed Arcana (which is open content) in a 3.5 game that ended prematurely, we were going to do a Pathfinder redux, and I checked out the Cloistered Cleric archetype figuring it'd be similar.

Yeah, I wasn't going to go from 3 domains (one set) and slightly more spells known to 1 domain, the same spells known as a standard cleric and reduced spellcasting.

I like how this is set up, and it at least seems like all I'm looking for is set up to be implemented, even if it isn't there yet (it is an alpha, after all). Really, the only ugly I have is this weird display error (on a Windows 7 32-bit system) I'm not sure how best to describe it - I hope this link works: Showing the race tab.

The leaking tables to the right show up on every tab, but the 'Combat Maneuver' one in the editing/display area only shows up on the Race tab.