a 300-pound gorilla is capable of pressing approximately 1,800 pounds.
that is like a 30 strength their large so that is still like a 20 strength score right?
Aww sad Ill just buff use my own variation and call the one on the summon monster table something else
A gorilla would actually be pretty terrible at baseball, or using a longsword, relative to its size. But 15 does seem a little lowball. This was pointed out to the dev staff early on, but by then, summon lists had already been written, etc., and it was too late to substitute another creature.
I think more realistically they should have Strength 19, Improved Grapple as a bonus feat, and a bite attack they can use on a grappled foe.
The 3.5 "ape" did have Strength 21 but at CR 2, it was too powerful.
Same could be said for a lot of creatures... specifically dinosaurs. If you look at their strength scores, things start to breakdown quickly. Another issue... why is the start size for a bear Small while a wolf's is Medium?
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koala maybe?
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Unless I'm confused, the stats of bear and the stats of wolf are that the bear is better. The animal companion wolf may have been buffed as a result.
Also, look at Roc. It's never gargantuan like the actual animal.
I'm actually not considering the game statistics other than size.
The relative sizes make no sense when compared to real life animals or even most fictional versions of the two animals.
From a game standpoint, it's particularly silly when a wolf can easily become a mount for a Medium sized player character (after 4th level), while a bear requires taking a feat like Undersized Mount (and dealing with the carrying capacity issues of having the smaller mount) or getting seven levels in Beast Rider Cavalier (assuming your DM agrees with the interpretation that this allows for a bear Mount that is actually as big as a real life bear).
It just seems like the creators of the AC rules just made random and arbitrary changes to the regular animal rules in the bestiaries, leading to non-sensical outcomes that don't even really improve balance in any meaningful way.
Important thing to remember... Game... not simulation. Realism is part of the formula of game design, but not the overriding consideration.
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** spoiler omitted **
And Golarion is not Pathfinder. Pathfinder is a set of rules and mechanics to run Golarion and any other setting it's capable of. So that tells me that the ape statblock is meant to represent the average real world ape. If there's something wrong with it, it's not because Golarion, it's because the statblock isn't accurate.
The answer is that Pathfinder isn't supposed to be a realistic simulation.
I've actually done a lot of thinking on the statting of animals in Pathfinder, and have concluded that the fundamental problem is that the strength score isn't designed to be realistic but rather to facilitate a heroic fantasy narrative. This requires certain liberties to be taken with animals, resulting in stuff like Gorillas having a relatively low 15 strength and still being unrealistically powerful in combat. The rules are designed so that a warrior with the strength of an ox is terrifyingly powerful. This creates a problem when you subsequently ask how powerful an ox is. After all, an ox has the strength of an ox, which under the Pathfinder system gives it ferocious combat prowess.
In real life, humans hunt and kill animals far stronger than we are by using weapons. A spear made of sharpened bone is more than sufficient to allow an Inuit hunter to defeat a Polar Bear single-handedly, and the sharpened steel of medieval weapons are another level of power altogether. The fall of the Inca Empire at the hands of Spanish Conquistadors gives us a very detailed account of what happened when steel went up against stone, wood, and bone. The gulf in efficacy of equipment was simply insurmountable. However, Pathfinder is again trying to build heroic narrative and not historically accurate depictions of arms and armor. The difference between a wooden club and a masterwork steel longsword is 1 point of damage and +1 to hit, so as not to upstage the herculean strength of your hero.
Taken together, this leaves little room to stat animals while maintaining even a semblance of realism. Animals like Gorillas are probably still over-statted in terms of their combat power even with the unrealistically low strength scores. However, the system isn't supposed to be an accurate model of the strength and combat threat of a mountain Gorilla. It's supposed to be modeling the confrontation of Beowulf and Grendel. This does create situations with animal companions where a a properly intimidating animal companion like an adult bear would be overpowered, so you get arbitrary adjustments like making them small size.
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For whatever reason, the bear animal companion is a black bear, while the wolf animal companion can turn into a dire wolf. I wish there were alternate versions for a grizzly and a normal wolf.
Medium is about right for a large gray wolf, which can hit a very buff 100 lbs. while the somewhat smaller red wolf would often be in the Small range.
Back to the OP, gorillas have a lot of slow-twitch muscle, while humans are relatively dense in fast-twitch muscle. So, a powerful male gorilla can move a 1000 lb log just by grunting and giving it a shove, but the same gorilla struggles to throw an object over a 20 foot gap at some obnoxious kids at the zoo.
In game terms, that means the gorilla probably has a Strength in the 15 to 19 range (high, but not superhuman, as they cannot uniformly do superhuman feats of strength). It probably overestimates their ability with a thrown rock, while underestimating their ability to climb; good enough for our purposes. Size Large takes care of the larger carrying/dragging capacity. That leaves just two basic problems: their ability to crush you with a martial hug, and their biting. The grabbing could be handled with a bonus feat or a monster special quality, and the larger size helps to some extent. Also, with their Hit Dice, they are much better than an untrained human.
As for the bite, they are clearly not primary biters. However, giving them a secondary bite is too weak in a grapple. So, the bite should be an option that becomes available in a grapple.
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The question about the wolf/bear sizes have perplexed me for a very long time. Even the relatively small black bear (in North America) is roughly twice the size of the largest comparable wolf species. The brown bear is almost ten times the size of the largest wolf species. (These comparisons by average weight for the species.)
That actually sounds about right if you look at the non-companion versions. Wolves are medium, brown bears are large. Large creatures are twice the length/height of medium creatures, which if all proportions scale means 8 times the volume/mass/weight. Of course bears are stockier than wolves, so a large bear could easily have 10 times the mass of a medium-size wolf.
Black bears are medium, like a wolf, but they could still be twice as heavy as a wolf. A male half-orc and a elf are both medium size, but the former weighs on average 240 lbs and the latter weighs on average 111 lbs.
The issue is the animal companion versions, where the wolf gets bigger than a normal wolf (becoming a dire wolf) but the bear only gets as large as a smaller (black) bear.
Important thing to remember... Game... not simulation. Realism is part of the formula of game design, but not the overriding consideration.
Sure, but in the case of bears more realism (bigger/grizzly bear companions) would make the game better. Bear companions are considered to be moderately strong at best, and in particular don't hold up at level 7+ compared to even the wolf or ape, let alone the big cat or most of the dinos. If the bear started at medium (with the same stats) and became large at level 7 with a grab attack on the claws, it would not only allow realistic grizzly companions compared to the bestiary version, but also give the bear a more balanced progression AND allow people to more easily make bear cavalry. Sounds like win all around to me...
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The issue is the animal companion versions, where the wolf gets bigger than a normal wolf (becoming a dire wolf) but the bear only gets as large as a smaller (black) bear.The funny thing is that the historical "Dire wolf," from archaeological evidence, really wasn't that much bigger than a modern grey wolf, and was still smaller than a modern black bear.
The best I can figure is that whoever originally designed the rules was some sort of lover of all things canine.
That is an issue of gaming fun beating realism.
Dire Animals are typically larger than their normal counterparts, with how much larger apparently varying wildly based on what would be the most interesting. Dire Rats are small, just large enough to be a credible threat to low-level adventurers. Dire Bats are freaking Large size because having another kind of flying mount is good. Similarly, Dire Wolves hit large size because it's neat to be able to have medium size-creatures ride them (elves seem popular) and because it's balanced for them to do so.
Plus, dire wolves aren't supposed to represent prehistoric dire wolves so much as be inspired by them (which is why we can get dire animals that didn't exist at all). So I wouldn't expect them to represent their inspiration any more than I'd expect a paladin or druid to represent their historical counterparts.
A medium bear is too strong compared to a medium wolf for both to be selectable animal companions at level 1. So, in order to have the choice of a bear at all for level 1, they needed to make it small. Same thing for the size increases.
No it isn't. Making the bear start at medium actually makes it weaker at level 1 since it loses the +1 size bonus to hit and AC. It's not like you'd have to increase its strength to get a reasonable medium-size bear. The current strength is 15, which is the same as the medium-size constrictor snake and orc warcat companions, and not far off the adult black bear's Str 17 and d4 damage die for its bite and claws.
It would get a bigger power boost increasing from medium to large than small to medium, but it needs that to stay competitive. There's a bigger power difference between a medium bear and large wolf than between a large wolf and large bear (and the large bear would still be inferior to the large cat).
Still talking about this huh? yeah no 15 is no good so i'm making my own version but thanks for suggestions guys.
Dudes, check out google for news about chimpanzee attacks. They don't try to punch you, they grapple and start biting your fingers off which is a thing that has happened.
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A gorilla would actually be pretty terrible at baseball, or using a longsword, relative to its size. But 15 does seem a little lowball.If you do any research on gorilla strength, it becomes apparent that there's a fair bit of hype/sensationalism when it comes to gorilla strength. I haven't seen one actual scientific comparison of gorilla strength compared to a humans. Nobody's actually got a gorilla to bench press or dead lift weights. Numbers like 1,800 lbs come from speculation based on gorillas snapping bamboo branches....that they may have already bitten to weaken.
Gorillas are undoubtedly quite a bit stronger than the average human at doing the things that gorillas do. But their long arms make them ill-suited for things that traditionally test human strength e.g. bench press or dead lifting.
What's more, the average human STR is 10. So 15 is not so ridiculous. According to web data, the average human male can bench press between 120-140lbs safely. The world record for bench press is 1075lbs (probably drug enhanced given the best in 1973 was around 580lbs). "Strongest Man" bench press videos show weights up to 1200lbs (but you can bet those are drug enhanced).
I seriously doubt that an average male gorilla is many times stronger than the strongest human and I'll bet dollars to donuts that the strongest human can easily bench press and dead lift more than an average male gorilla.
So 15 isn't ridiculous for a male gorilla, but for believability, you'd probably want to to give it bonuses for certain type of gorilla-type actions. And while I'm sure an average gorilla's slam attacks are more dangerous than even the strongest man's, train the strongest man how to box and wrestle, and I would put my money on the the strongest man vs an average gorilla (assuming the man could get over the fear factor of fighting a 300lb gorilla).
They had them move things around, and they move thing around a lot easier than humans do. Even chimpanzees are a stronger than humans. Gorillas are definitely a lot stronger than humans.
Dudes, check out google for news about chimpanzee attacks. They don't try to punch you, they grapple and start biting your fingers off which is a thing that has happened.
Do not ever, ever threaten to give a chimp a knuckle sandwich.
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Assume it's a typo and make it 25
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Why are you arguing so hard that a gorilla should have only a 15 str?
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Assume it's a typo and make it 25
So now I just have to change the stat block from:
2 slams +3 (1d6+2)To:
2 slams +8 (1d6+7)
...You know, I was intending to mock you for making Summon Monster 3 too powerful, but when I compare that to the leopard option:
Melee bite +6 (1d6+3 plus grab), 2 claws +6 (1d3+3)
Special Attacks pounce, rake (2 claws +6, 1d3+3)
...it's actually pretty close to balanced.
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Why do you think a typo is my best guess? for a monster in that spell's array, the gorilla as is is actually underpowered... plus that strength is ridiculously low to portray the monster apes of fiction and RPG.
I was just gonna go with a 20 but your really selling me on that 25
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I was just gonna go with a 20 but your really selling me on that 25
Thanks to arms and an upright posture, a summoned gorilla's strength is likely to be more generally useful than a summoned leopard's strength, so a 20 might be a good compromise.
When comparing the damage / utility of summoned creatures or animal companions (like trying to make a medium-to-large size bear companion for a Druid), I try to resist the urge to compare a lower power option such as the ape to what might be the totally optimal option, like big cats with their pounce/rake options. Not every option needs to be buffed up to compete with the absolute best option (and, indeed, the absolute best option might warrant being downgraded a smidge...).
At the end of the day, for me, it's not the goal that the ape or bear or whatever be equal to the best choice on the list of summoned critters or companions for that level, but that it simply not suck, making it more attractive as an option for those whacky players who value an appropriate thematic choice, to the mechanically optimal choice (since you shouldn't have to sacrifice effectiveness for flavor, it shouldn't have to be one or the other).
With a strength of 25, the gorilla would be capable of lifting 3200 pounds, though only moving 5' with it. (800 for Str 25, x2 for being Large, and you can stagger around with double that).
If it was Str 20, it would match the 1600 pound bench press given earlier (you aren't moving around during a bench press). (Str 20 is 400 pounds, x2 for being Large, stagger around with double that = 1600)
The question about the wolf/bear sizes have perplexed me for a very long time.
It was deliberate. Something to do with cats vs bears (sports teams).
If it was Str 20, it would match the 1600 pound bench press given earlier (you aren't moving around during a bench press). (Str 20 is 400 pounds, x2 for being Large, stagger around with double that = 1600)There's about zero credible or valid scientific evidence that gorillas can "bench press" anything close to 1600 pounds. Your average wild ape may be lucky to bench press 800 pounds...if that.
It's fascinating to see how once sensationalized information gets implanted in a community, people cling to it, despite any and all evidence to the contrary.
I never said they could. I just used that number as that was the one thrown about earlier.
Understood, but the point is you're still using the number.
I don't care. If that is the number someone wants to use for their gorillas, that is the number they are going to use. I was simply giving the info needed to assign a Strength score to that particular number, for a Large creature at least. Different sized creatures would have a different Strength score for the same weight benchmark. Also to show that Strength 25 is probably too much.
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When comparing the damage / utility of summoned creatures or animal companions (like trying to make a medium-to-large size bear companion for a Druid), I try to resist the urge to compare a lower power option such as the ape to what might be the totally optimal option, like big cats with their pounce/rake options. Not every option needs to be buffed up to compete with the absolute best option (and, indeed, the absolute best option might warrant being downgraded a smidge...)
Not everything needs to be as powerful as the big cat. But if you buffed it and it's still weaker than the big cat, it's not overpowered.
Say what you will i'm pretty set on gorillas having a 20 str at this point 15 just doesn't seem right. call it an whim if you will but I've decided.
I don't know how you guys think 15 can make any more sense then 20. If 25 isn't unbalancing I doubt 20 will be.
really I don't see gorillas as large size they might be on the cusp but I don't think large is the best fit really. but ill keep it call them on the small size of large.
They had them move things around, and they move thing around a lot easier than humans do. Even chimpanzees are a stronger than humans. Gorillas are definitely a lot stronger than humans.Not sure why I didn't catch this earlier, but no, the chimpanzees were not stronger than humans. Read the relevant section again:
An adult male chimp, he found, pulled about the same weight as an adult man. Once he'd corrected the measurement for their smaller body sizes, chimpanzees did turn out to be stronger than humans—but not by a factor of five or anything close to it.Chimps are stronger at pulling things, pound for pound, they are not stronger on an absolute level.
So you are telling me that if there is test of strength that does not favor body mechanics a human and a chimp(not even a gorilla) are going to come out even?
If you argued for the chimp having a 15 I would probably understand, even though I know it is not correct, but a gorilla. That makes no sense at all if we are talking about real life strength.
I can bench press more than a husky(dog breed) because dogs can't do a bench press, but to say I am not absolutely weaker than the dog is not logical.
And that article didnt say "chimps werent stronger". It said the factor of difference was not 5.
Why do you think a typo is my best guess? for a monster in that spell's array, the gorilla as is is actually underpowered... plus that strength is ridiculously low to portray the monster apes of fiction and RPG.It should be exceedingly obvious that the aggressive gorillas portrayed in movies are at the extreme edge of what movie/TV directors feel they can get away with. In no way does TV or film attempt to accurately depict gorilla strength. The Bestiary gorilla is the Commoner version of the gorilla, not the made-for-entertainment fiction you see on screen.
If it was Str 20, it would match the 1600 pound bench press given earlier (you aren't moving around during a bench press). (Str 20 is 400 pounds, x2 for being Large, stagger around with double that = 1600)There's about zero credible or valid scientific evidence that gorillas can "bench press" anything close to 1600 pounds. Your average wild ape may be lucky to bench press 800 pounds...if that.
It's fascinating to see how once sensationalized information gets implanted in a community, people cling to it, despite any and all evidence to the contrary.
There was a Tv show were the top athlete across the world competed with animals. They had a top sumo wrestler tug of war against an orangutan. Once th orangutan understood what it was doing it pulled it out his hands like i would a small child.
Now this is not perfect science but strongly represents the strength of a large primate compare to a high strength human.
*edit the show was man vs beast. I bet a Youtube search may find you what i was referring to.