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I prefer succubi to be more versatile temptresses, not purely tempting one with sexual gratification but also things like status, wealth, and power.
Fine food, intellectual discourse, etc.
There was a certain brothel in an AP with succubi specializing in platonic pleasures.
The patrons could enjoy all the hedonistic pleasures of an exquisite meal in the company of a companion capable to engaging and insightful conversation on wide ranging topics.
Pleasures of the flesh were also available, of course.
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I also like to interpret that while a succubus can drain someone fast (as per "Energy Drain (Su)") they can also drain someone very gradually over a period of years or even decades, and that they very much prefer to do the latter. They're content to drain adventurers as fast as they can, if they meet up in a dungeon where the adventurers will probably not be spending any more time than they have to, but if a wizard would summon a succubus into his or her opulent mansion, the succubus would prefer to hang around for as long as she can.
The "slow drain" probably doesn't require rules text, but it should be something far more gradual than "one negative level per kiss" so that the victim does not think to pull away until it's far, far too late.
A good aligned succubus would prefer to be in these sorts of relationships which are mutually beneficial, where she offers as much to the other person as she takes and never takes enough to harm the other person (or at least, nothing that won't heal over a weekend, say.) A good aligned succubus is big on aftercare.
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where's the LG counterparts of the Eldritch mythos? Give me a writhing alien mass of incomprehensible proportions that spreads sanity and peace throughout the cosmos!
You should try to read more closely to the descriptions of the celestial beings in the Vision of Ezekiel; the chariot of the divine warrior being drawn by the tetramorph living creatures beside each which are a wheel within a wheel with rims full of eyes. The seraphim are described as six-winged fiery brazen serpents/dragons. The four-winged cherubim are described in ways similar to sphinxes, phoenixes, griffins, lamassu, shedu or as a combination of more than one of the previous list. The ophanim/thrones are described as spheres, wheels, whirlwinds and/or many-eyed. Don't forget the lion who is the seven-eyed, seven-horned lamb that opens the book of the seven seals in the Revelation of John of Patmos.
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Yeah! And while we're at it, where's the LG counterparts of the Eldritch mythos? Give me a writhing alien mass of incomprehensible proportions that spreads sanity and peace throughout the cosmos!I believe those are Flumphs.
FLUMPHS~!
Flumphs are literally the answer to every question in this thread.
"Celestial"? Check.
Opposite of a succubus? Check.
Lawful good mythos? Check.
Not locked into a single physical gender? I never know what they are, so: check!
Tentacles? Check-check.
Grapple a bare Druid? Have you seen those tentacles, and/or a production from Japan? Check!
Inspire chastity? Check!
Sexy? No, of course no-... wait, this is the Internet: CHECK! (For someone.)
BAM.
And thus Flumphs continue to prove that they are the best.
I'm seeing a lot of "you can't have a promiscuous good outsider" on here...
At best, you can create a "maiden of love" that follows and enforces the traditional regime of marriage as a "code of conduct" for celestials of their type to pursue. After all, trying to make it anything more than that brings it into the sinful territory of Demons, or the treacherous territory of Fae.An honest "seduction" to "goodness" would require another mortal desiring a long term relationship (usually, but not always, marriage).This may or may not be what is asked for but what about a good outsider that specifically urges patience and honoring ones commitment through the promise of fulfilling some deepseated desire, an embodiment of the phrase 'good things come to those who wait'.The ultimate opposite number of a succubus wouldn't have anything to do with *physical* sex and lust. She would be a beautiful, chaste and ideal maiden, and would only be the object of platonic love and devotion...Pathfinder doesn't generally present sex as a temptation that needs to be resisted unless one is inside a committed, long-term relationship. You certainly could have an angel devoted to encouraging mortals respect their marriage vows, but that's not the only context in which a celestial could approve of sex. Arshea and Lymneris both of have the Lust subdomain.
My understanding is that Envall is correct - the "sinful" element of lust is objectification - using another person as a tool to fulfill your desires without respect for their dignity or wellbeing. As Alzrius said, the succubus is predatory. Even if you do decide to change her methods to be more manipulative, in the end, she Energy Drains her lovers.
Nymphs are the good succubus equivalent....
Though more seriously, this one.
(That said, for good aligned succubi, one might want to take a look at our Council of Thieves game...)
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where's the LG counterparts of the Eldritch mythos? Give me a writhing alien mass of incomprehensible proportions that spreads sanity and peace throughout the cosmos!You should try to read more closely to the descriptions of the celestial beings in the Vision of Ezekiel; the chariot of the divine warrior being drawn by the tetramorph living creatures beside each which are a wheel within a wheel with rims full of eyes. The seraphim are described as six-winged fiery brazen serpents/dragons. The four-winged cherubim are described in ways similar to sphinxes, phoenixes, griffins, lamassu, shedu or as a combination of more than one of the previous list. The ophanim/thrones are described as spheres, wheels, whirlwinds and/or many-eyed. Don't forget the lion who is the seven-eyed, seven-horned lamb that opens the book of the seven seals in the Revelation of John of Patmos.
ALSO THIS POST! Ezekiel is the maaaaaan~!
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I always considered that the thematic opposite of the succubus would be like the angel from "It's a wonderful life". Skilled in giving reasons to continue on the good path and not give up.
I guess they can have sex afterwards though
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Another way to have a good-aligned succubus equivalent: Figures out what people want and why they want it... and then they provide good-aligned methods to find fulfilment. (As such, it's generally not going to be precisely what they were thinking of, but something that satisfies their cravings anyway)
So such an outsider is present with somebody who's really lusting after (this person here) but the G!Succubus knows that it's because they are deeply craving emotional intimacy and don't know how to get it. So the G!Succubus gives a hug and helps talk her into renewing her lapsed family bonds and friendships, encouraging her every step of the way, and after all that is done providing some advice on dating people appropriate to the culture she's in and the good alignment.
The goal is to make people better off than they were before, to have their underlying desires fulfilled so they're no longer tempted toward evil (or at least not nearly as much), and to make sure that they're making the lives of the people around them better at the same time.
Desiring something can be dangerous, but it is not in any way inherently bad, wrong, or evil.
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I prefer succubi to be more versatile temptresses, not purely tempting one with sexual gratification but also things like status, wealth, and power.Fine food, intellectual discourse, etc.
There was a certain brothel in an AP with succubi specializing in platonic pleasures.
The patrons could enjoy all the hedonistic pleasures of an exquisite meal in the company of a companion capable to engaging and insightful conversation on wide ranging topics.
You see a buxom lady at a table, she corrects a few modifiers on a paper before arranging her polyhedral dice.
Roll a will save.
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Maybe it's a pre-conceived notion, but there is a lot more evidence, both historical and fantastical, that creatures akin to Succubi, even with the intentions of "Good," are still more along the lines of sinful entities, than being servants of Good.
I'm not sure what you mean by "evidence." It's certainly a common theme in some cultures, including much of our Western cultural history. However, it's worth pointing out that the Judeochristian sexual morality present in Western culture largely developed in contrast to more sexually permissive belief systems. See Deuteronomy 23:17 - "No Israelite man or woman is to become a shrine prostitute" - a reference to the presence of sacred prostitutes in competing religions.
This isn't true just of a subject as sex, but also with other "controversial" concepts, such as murder or slavery.
Are you really sure you want to compare consensual casual sex with murder?
I suggested an entity embodying the opposite of temptation, not the opposite of lust or even just sexual appetite. Sure, it could be but it encompasses so many more possibilities.
The thing is, that message (in particular the 'good things come to those who wait' phrasing) is strongly in line with the modern Christian "abstinence outside marriage" philosophy. This message is not that sexual appetite is bad, but that it is properly indulged inside of marriage where it serves to create a strong emotional bond between committed partners. Sex outside of marriage, in this view, not only doesn't involve an emotional bond but also weakens the emotional bond you would have with a future spouse (because the sex isn't special any more).
This may not be what you intended. However when you represent a "good succubus" as being "the opposite of temptation," that suggests that the temptation is bad/evil and should be resisted - as you put it, "don't fall to earthly temptation." If the "good succubus" is still about sex, that paints casual sex in a very bad light. If she's not still about sex, and you're inverting the "temptation/desire" element, you're not so much designing a good succubus as the opposite of a succubus. Which could be interesting but it's not what OP is looking for.
Really, if you just wanted a celestial copy of the succubus this topic could've been closed off by advising switching out the typical evil outsider traits with their good equivalents and calling it a day.
Mechanically, sure. But this isn't a mechanical question, it's a thematic one. Why isn't there a good-aligned female succubus, and thematically what should one be like?
For reference, here's the good counterpart to the incubus that OP mentioned:
Male azatas of extraordinary and radiant beauty, gancanaghs are Elysium's knights-errant, but they are best known as inveterate wooers of mortals and immortals alike. While gancanaghs are incorrigible flirts, a gancanagh's true attention tends to alight on one man or woman at a time, and he throws himself into wooing and courting his current target, into a brief but earnest fling before his quicksilver passions change yet again.
Gancanaghs hate succubi and incubi more than anything else, as they feel that the mere existence of such creatures profanes the spirit of romance with the shadow of the demons' seduction and violence, leading good people who share the gancanagh's flirtatious and open nature to be compared to evil creatures.
Note that the gancanagh is still erotic and passionate in nature (he also gets an ability "Invigorating Passion" similar to the succubus' kiss but a buff, albeit one that can leave the recipient fatigued when it expires). However, it's explicitly a non-violent sexuality - with the focus on romance I would expect that the Gancanagh's object is to make their lover feel appreciated and desirable, and to satisfy their desires.
In contrast, the succubus ultimately only cares about satisfying her own desires, often at her lovers' expense - even if she uses her understanding of others' desires to tempt and manipulate them.
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From reading the entry for Gancanagh, it seems that they are only somewhat equivalent to Succubi for one thing, they are much less powerful (fewer abilities and much easier to kill). Contrast the comparison between Balisse Angels and Erinyes Devils -- not exactly mirror images, but much closer to mirror images in both abilities and origin(*), compared to Gancanaghs and Succubi. (Also, from the Wikipedia entry for Gancanagh, the Gancanagh should really be a Fey instead of an Azata.)
(*)Indeed, one way to get an Erinyes is from a fallen angel, although the soul of a fallen formerly pious mortal (possibly first going through intermediate steps as other types of Devils) is also a possibility, as is a bunch of Lemures mooshed together because a Pit Fiend decided that an emergency called for fast creation of an Erinyes. Although not explicitly stated, and not by any means a shoo-in, conversion into a Balisse Angel is a plausible outcome for a redeemed Erinyes who manages to find someone or something capable of performing the transformation. In contrast, for a redeemed Succubus to get converted into a Gancanagh would involve major loss of overall capability and survivability (assuming that both forms were at out-of-the-box specifications apart from the redemption issue). Arguably, someone being redeemed should be willing to pay such a price, but if so, this doesn't get applied equally to the Lawful and Chaotic sides of redemption.
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Okay, so I haven't read all posts, but isn't this matter of how you describe what succubus is?
I mean, I consider succubus to be "demon that kills you with sex", having good equivalent of that is pretty hard since killing, whether with sex or not, doesn't really sound very good-ish.
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The classic RPG succubus gets someone to give something up by tempting with sex, whether it is their lives, their kingdoms, their souls, or something else. In the end, too, it is not necessarily sex that will happen. The opposite of that would be something along the line of getting someone to take responsibility, walk the straight and narrow, keep fighting, and grow as a person. The reward for doing this could be anything good, including sex. It wouldn't have to be with the angel, of course. Matchmaking is a perfectly fine alternative.
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Okay, so I haven't read all posts, but isn't this matter of how you describe what succubus is?
I mean, I consider succubus to be "demon that kills you with sex", having good equivalent of that is pretty hard since killing, whether with sex or not, doesn't really sound very good-ish.
I think the opposite would happen with a "good succubus". Instead of draining your lifeforce and killing you, sleeping with a good succubus would buff a character, heal their wounds, remove their curses, etc. Like the Sacred Prostitute class from BOEF.
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I'm not sure what you mean by "evidence." It's certainly a common theme in some cultures, including much of our Western cultural history. However, it's worth pointing out that the Judeochristian sexual morality present in Western culture largely developed in contrast to more sexually permissive belief systems. See Deuteronomy 23:17 - "No Israelite man or woman is to become a shrine prostitute" - a reference to the presence of sacred prostitutes in competing religions.
Are you really sure you want to compare consensual casual sex with murder?
Basically, what you linked is what I would constitute as evidence. There are several historical scriptures and societal rules that have severe restrictions and idealisms that must be enforced for such activity to be considered "acceptable." Do I agree with them personally? No. But it doesn't matter what I, as a player, think. What matters is what the entities of the game think; the Celestials, the very creatures that basically create and write these same historical scriptures and societal rules, and 99% of the time, those same entities enforce those very same scriptures and rules through punishment and required atonement.
"Consensual Casual Sex" (if you really want to call it that), by most religious standards, is viewed as a sinful act. Whether they're as capital of things like murder or theft is questionable, but the factor is that it's up there in the "things you don't do" section among existing religious scriptures means that it is, in some level, comparable. The thing is, the celestials within the religious standards care a lot about these sins and whether they're committed or not, and regard those who endorse or commit these sins as evil "souls" that do not belong with their heavenly counterparts; and as such, should be purified if they demand entry into their domain.
Now, are Pathfinder's celestials the same, and follow the same rules and scriptures? No. Maybe some celestials don't have "consensual casual sex" as a sin. But I imagine that if they do have it as a sin, which, based on several celestials' M.O., is quite possible, that there wouldn't exist a celestial that embodies something that they constitute as being a sin.
I put quotes around that because it demonstrates the point that trying to call it something lighter than what it is (adultery out of wedlock), doesn't change the factor that those religions would still consider it a sinful act, because such activities weren't done through the proper channels (AKA after marriage). Because it's not done through the proper channels, it's regarded a sin, and therefore requires punishment onto or atonement from the one(s) who committed the sin.
I'm not particularly familiar with the Pathfinder deities, and in a lot of cases, deities are just a matter of GM FIAT at a given table. If we're talking objectively, outside of Pathfinder deities, I imagine that if a deity views adultery as sinful, the likelihood that there exists a celestial who inadvertently promotes that which the deity views as sinful, is highly unlikely.
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I put quotes around that because it demonstrates the point that trying to call it something lighter than what it is (adultery out of wedlock), ...
That's simply wrong. "Casual consensual sex" is not adultery unless one partner is married (and the sex is not between spouses).
Here's a relevant statute:
18-6601. ADULTERY. A married man who has sexual intercourse with a woman not his wife, an unmarried man who has sexual intercourse with a married woman, a married woman who has sexual intercourse with a man not her husband, and an unmarried woman who has sexual intercourse with a married man, shall be guilty of adultery, and shall be punished by a fine of not less than $100, or by imprisonment in the county jail for not less than three months, or by imprisonment in the state penitentiary for a period not exceeding three years, or in the county jail for a period not exceeding one year, or by fine not exceeding $1000.
(Consentual) sex between unmarried people is fornication:
18-6603. FORNICATION. Any unmarried person who shall have sexual intercourse with an unmarried person of the opposite sex shall be deemed guilty of fornication, and, upon conviction thereof, shall be punished by a fine of not more than $300 or by imprisonment for not more than six months or by both such fine and imprisonment; provided, that the sentence imposed or any part thereof may be suspended with or without probation in the discretion of the court.
... but, of course, fornication is just a pretentious Latinate word for "sex."
So in no sense is Kudzlin "trying to call it something lighter than what it is"; his description of casual consensual sex is exact, and your calling it adultery is wrong.
The bigger question is whether or not this particular aspect of Christian morality should have a place in Golarion. What narrative purpose does it serve? Given the amount that has been written about forbidden love/lust, and its long-standing ties to classic drama, I think it's a part of the source material worth preserving, just because succubi let you tell more stories.
I don't see what additional stories anti-succubi would let you tell that couldn't be told simply by using a vanilla angel.
If we're talking objectively, outside of Pathfinder deities, I imagine that if a deity views adultery as sinful, the likelihood that there exists a celestial who inadvertently promotes that which the deity views as sinful, is highly unlikely.
That's.... rather silly, especially since your use of the phrase "a" deity specifically allows for multiple deities and therefore divergent views on the issue. The idea that Thor would have veto power over what celestials are permitted to Venus seems... well, odd. And silly. And a number of even more pejorative adjectives, frankly.
To be clear, I mean adultery in the religious sense, not the legal sense (which is what you've cited). If they're the same, then clearly I need to use a different word to properly convey my point. Ironically enough, it escapes me...
Regardless, it's still considered a sin by most real-world religions, which is the heart of the issue with the given topic.
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I think that one of the things we want to recognize about Golarion and most official settings is that while they are largely medieval in terms of their technology and dress, culturally they reflect much more modern liberal values. To Paizo's great credit, for example, LGBT people are generally accepted as no big deal in Golarion. So attitudes around sex and sexuality in the game are likely closer to what we (the designers and the GMs) feel should be the case in the real world than what is historically accurate.
I mean, if I can have the fantasy that I can swing a greatsword and fight a dragon in the game, I can also indulge the fantasy that in the game my gender identity, sexual orientation, and sexuality is respected by the people in the game world.
So while there's probably a deity here and there that frowns on sex outside of strictly defined marriage, this is probably more of a fringe opinion in our game world than it is in our reality. That particular deity probably would not welcome redeemed succubi to his or her service, but certainly others would.
If we're talking objectively, outside of Pathfinder deities, I imagine that if a deity views adultery as sinful, the likelihood that there exists a celestial who inadvertently promotes that which the deity views as sinful, is highly unlikely.That's.... rather silly, especially since your use of the phrase "a" deity specifically allows for multiple deities and therefore divergent views on the issue. The idea that Thor would have veto power over what celestials are permitted to Venus seems... well, odd. And silly. And a number of even more pejorative adjectives, frankly.
You misunderstand my point if that's the conclusion you draw. Let's try this from another angle:
If a deity's portfolio includes Strength, why would he have outsiders in his service that promote the exact opposite of Strength, which is, in this example, Weakness?
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If we're talking objectively, outside of Pathfinder deities, I imagine that if a deity views adultery as sinful, the likelihood that there exists a celestial who inadvertently promotes that which the deity views as sinful, is highly unlikely.That's.... rather silly, especially since your use of the phrase "a" deity specifically allows for multiple deities and therefore divergent views on the issue. The idea that Thor would have veto power over what celestials are permitted to Venus seems... well, odd. And silly. And a number of even more pejorative adjectives, frankly.
You misunderstand my point if that's the conclusion you draw. Let's try this from another angle:
If a deity's portfolio includes Strength, why would he have outsiders in his service that promote the exact opposite of Strength, which is, in this example, Weakness?
I don't think anyone's suggesting that he would have outsiders in his service that promote Weakness..... but there's no reason that different deities would not have such outsiders. Indeed, there are LG deities promoting "Sun" (including the subdomain "Light") and other LG deities promoting "Darkness."
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Isn't that pretty much what a nymph is?
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So while there's probably a deity here and there that frowns on sex outside of strictly defined marriage, this is probably more of a fringe opinion in our game world than it is in our reality. That particular deity probably would not welcome redeemed succubi to his or her service, but certainly others would.
While I agree with you, this doesn't address my question above,... specifically "to what end?"
Let's say, for example, that Shelyn (who is big on redemption) managed to redeem a succubus. It's axiomatic that having one more person on the good guys' side and one less on the bad guys' side is a win for Good; that I grant.
But, as the dog said when he finally caught the car, now what the hell do I do with this? I mean, yes, the newly redeemed succubus could probably make coffee and answer the phones as well as anyone else.... but it's actually really hard to make use of a temptress ex-demon to "tempt" people into supporting Truth, Justice, Beauty, and the Golarion Way. There aren't really a lot of things that Shelyn could do with an ex-succubus that couldn't be done just as well by, for example, a vulpinal, or a balisse.
And, frankly, if Shelyn wanted to help guide a mortal into staying faithful to his wife, a supernaturally beautiful temptress with a Charisma of 27 would not be my first suggestion for a messenger.
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Isn't that pretty much what a nymph is?
Not really, no. Narratively speaking, nymphs generally have no purpose and serve no higher power. They are self-contained and self-motivated -- when they aren't (as Nero Wolfe so memorably put it) "a mere voluptuous irrelevance," they're generally a distraction and an obstacle to overcome in order to achieve the task set before the hero.
Succubi -- demons in general, really -- are agents of a malign will and have a larger purpose they wish to accomplish. Anti-succubi would therefore be agents of a beneficent will and also have a purpose they wish to accomplish.
I just can't figure out what that purpose would be. To bring joy to lonely teenagers across the world in order to help them develop enough self-confidence to establish relationships with other actual mortals? (Maybe.)
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Lillend azatas are close enough. The only thing I would change is giving them shapechange so they can blend into societies and subtly influence poets and artists without them knowing. Plus,it's easier to inspire when you can change into anything.Pretty much what I was thinking
Also helps get around the "mermaid problem".
Isn't that pretty much what a nymph is?
Yes, but the person likely wanted something more 1 to 1 to get an angelic version.
Honestly, a capricious fey is likely more useful for a GM than an angel. A fey could be a sultry guide one moment and a manipulative and vengeful adversary the next. They are more flexible in use, so they have better drama potential.
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"Not Another Teen Movie" had a couple of characters who could have been good-aligned succubi: the ones played by Cerina Vincent and Lacey Chabert. Lacey Chabert's character clearly had an absurdly high charisma, as several young male geeks were completely obsessed with her (fully clothed) and apparently never noticed or mentioned the always naked Cerina Vincent.
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Spoiler:One day while indulging in the gloomiest reflections he suddenly sprang from the rock upon which he sat, and with a determined gesture of the right hand exclaimed: "I will no longer be a suppliant for knowledge which the gods withhold. Let them look to it that they do me no wrong. I will do my duty as best I can and if I err upon their own heads be it!"Suddenly, as he spoke, a great brightness fell about him, causing him to look upward, thinking the sun had burst through a rift in the clouds; but there were no clouds. No more than an arm's length away stood a beautiful maiden. So beautiful she was that the flowers about her feet folded their petals in despair and bent their heads in token of submission; so sweet her look that the humming birds thronged her eyes, thrusting their thirsty bills almost into them, and the wild bees were about her lips. And such was her brightness that the shadows of all objects lay divergent from her feet, turning as she moved.
Haïta was entranced. Rising, he knelt before her in adoration, and she laid her hand upon his head.
"Come," she said in a voice that had the music of all the bells of his flock—"come, thou art not to worship me, who am no goddess, but if thou art truthful and dutiful I will abide with thee."
Haïta seized her hand, and stammering his joy and gratitude arose, and hand in hand they stood and smiled into each other's eyes. He gazed on her with reverence and rapt- ure. He said: "I pray thee, lovely maid, tell me thy name and whence and why thou comest."
At this she laid a warning finger on her lip and began to withdraw. Her beauty underwent a visible alteration that made him shudder, he knew not why, for still she was beautiful. The landscape was darkened by a giant shadow sweeping across the valley with the speed of a vulture. In the obscurity the maiden's figure grew dim and indistinct and her voice seemed to come from a distance, as she said, in a tone of sorrowful reproach: "Presumptuous and ungrateful youth! must I then so soon leave thee? Would nothing do but thou must at once break the eternal compact?"
Inexpressibly grieved, Haïta fell upon his knees and implored her to remain—rose and sought her in the deepening darkness—ran in circles, calling to her aloud, but all in vain. She was no longer visible, but out of the gloom he heard her voice saying: "Nay, thou shalt not have me by seeking. Go to thy duty, faithless shepherd, or we shall never meet again."
Night had fallen; the wolves were howling in the hills and the terrified sheep crowding about Haïta's feet. In the demands of the hour he forgot his disappointment, drove his sheep to the fold and repairing to the place of worship poured out his heart in gratitude to Hastur for permitting him to save his flock, then retired to his cave and slept.
When Haïta awoke the sun was high and shone in at the cave, illuminating it with a great glory. And there, beside him, sat the maiden. She smiled upon him with a smile that seemed the visible music of his pipe of reeds. He dared not speak, fearing to offend her as before, for he knew not what he could venture to say.
"Because," she said, "thou didst thy duty by the flock, and didst not forget to thank Hastur for staying the wolves of the night, I am come to thee again. Wilt thou have me for a companion?"
"Who would not have thee forever?" replied Haïta. "Oh! never again leave me until—until I—change and become silent and motionless."
Haita had no word for death.
"I wish, indeed," he continued, "that thou wert of my own sex, that we might wrestle and run races and so never tire of being together."
At these words the maiden arose and passed out of the cave, and Haïta, springing from his couch of fragrant boughs to overtake and detain her, observed to his astonishment that the rain was falling and the stream in the middle of the valley had come out of its banks. The sheep were bleating in terror, for the rising waters had invaded their fold. And there was danger for the unknown cities of the distant plain.
It was many days before Haïta saw the maiden again. One day he was returning from the head of the valley, where he had gone with ewe's milk and oat cake and berries for the holy hermit, who was too old and feeble to provide himself with food.
"Poor old man!" he said aloud, as he trudged along homeward. "I will return tomorrow and bear him on my back to my own dwelling, where I can care for him. Doubtless it is for this that Hastur has reared me all these many years, and gives me health and strength."
As he spoke, the maiden, clad in glittering garments, met him in the path with a smile that took away his breath.
"I am come again," she said, "to dwell with thee if thou wilt now have me, for none else will. Thou mayest have learned wisdom, and art willing to take me as I am, nor care to know."
Haïta threw himself at her feet. "Beautiful being," he cried, "if thou wilt but deign to accept all the devotion of my heart and soul—after Hastur be served—it is thine forever. But, alas! thou art capricious and wayward. Before to-morrow's sun I may lose thee again. Promise, I beseech thee, that however in my ignorance I may offend, thou wilt forgive and remain always with me."
Scarcely had he finished speaking when a troop of bears came out of the hills, racing toward him with crimson mouths and fiery eyes. The maiden again vanished, and he turned and fled for his life. Nor did he stop until he was in the cot of the holy hermit, whence he had set out. Hastily barring the door against the bears he cast himself upon the ground and wept.
"My son," said the hermit from his couch of straw, freshly gathered that morning by Haïta's hands, "it is not like thee to weep for bears—tell me what sorrow hath befallen thee, that age may minister to the hurts of youth with such balms as it hath of its wisdom."
Haïta told him all: how thrice he had met the radiant maid, and thrice she had left him forlorn. He related minutely all that had passed between them, omitting no word of what had been said.
When he had ended, the holy hermit was a moment silent, then said: "My son, I have attended to thy story, and I know the maiden. I have myself seen her, as have many. Know, then, that her name, which she would not even permit thee to inquire, is Happiness. Thou saidst the truth to her, that she is capricious for she imposeth conditions that man can not fulfill, and delinquency is punished by desertion. She cometh only when unsought, and will not be questioned. One manifestation of curiosity, one sign of doubt, one expression of misgiving, and she is away! How long didst thou have her at any time before she fled?"
"Only a single instant," answered Haïta, blushing with shame at the confession. "Each time I drove her away in one moment."
"Unfortunate youth " said the holy hermit, "but for thine indiscretion thou mightst have had her for two."
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After reading this and many other posts I wonder if a GA Succubus might be essentially a "redemption temptress"
Essentially going around to evil or negative energy infused, (otherwise)chaste beings offering redemption, then when the offer is taken they have sex with the subject, absorbing it and it's evil essence into themselves, making them pregnant and dissolving the evil entity complexly(as energy drain).
Then within a week(keeping it within reason for gameplay, otherwise a few months) the celestial...
I had similar thoughts after reading this, though like others I think a good succubus would focus less on the sex aspect than a traditional succubus.
The way I see it, the broad concept of the D&D/Pathfinder succubus is a demoness who tempts people toward the dark side with the promise of sex. As such, they would target good people during moments of weakness and offer them a life of pleasure and wanton excess. We sometimes see them used as the consorts of evil people just to kind of illustrate how evil they are, but that never really made much sense to me - I always envisioned the succubus as abandoning her target once they had fallen to the dark side to find another to corrupt. It's like a drug - at first the high is intense and easy to get, but over time the pleasure fades and the costs become more extreme.
So to my mind, a "good succubus" would target tyrants or similar people and tempt them toward the light side. This probably wouldn't take the form of sex, at least not the way a succubus tempts someone, because a tyrant can coerce or threaten women into satisfying his lusts. The good succubus is like the Ghost of Christmas Past, offering the villain what his evil lifestyle can't provide - inner peace, no one trying to assassinate you, relationships based on trust rather than fear, or maybe a second chance with that one girl that he's never been to win over despite all his power. The good succubus tells the tyrant that if he lets go of whatever pain or need drives him to commit atrocities, he can have a simpler, more peaceful, more rewarding life. (I'm kind of envisioning something a bit like the "Lexmas" episode of Smallville - while I think the execution in that episode was stupid and went against the point they were trying to make, the concept of someone trying to convince the bad guy that maybe he's been pursuing happiness the wrong way is interesting.)
I also agree that for more general purposes, nymphs tend to fill this role pretty well.
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Q : Why is there no good succubus equivalent ?
A : Because only Evil can give it to you like it was meant to be given. Succubus : accept no alternative !
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Let's say, for example, that Shelyn (who is big on redemption) managed to redeem a succubus. It's axiomatic that having one more person on the good guys' side and one less on the bad guys' side is a win for Good; that I grant.
But, as the dog said when he finally caught the car, now what the hell do I do with this? I mean, yes, the newly redeemed succubus could probably make coffee and answer the phones as well as anyone else.... but it's actually really hard to make use of a temptress ex-demon to "tempt" people into supporting Truth, Justice, Beauty, and the Golarion Way. There aren't really a lot of things that Shelyn could do with an ex-succubus that couldn't be done just as well by, for example, a vulpinal, or a balisse.
Well, Shelyn is the patron goddess of artists right? Who be better to send as a muse to a tortured artist looking for someone to paint than a 27 charisma outsider who can provide both inspiration and kindness.
Redeemed succubi are going to be rare enough (each one is going to be a character unto themselves) that they're most likely special agents where each one has a thing that they do better than anybody else around and they get sent to do those sorts of things, otherwise they just hang around like all the other good outsiders.
I think they work better as "not just a type" but as individual succubi who made the hard climb up to heaven for reasons that are their own. The way I might run it is that good aligned succubi tend to be somewhat obsessive about one thing in particular that interests them (indeed their reason for redeeming might be that they wanted to pursue their own interests and self-actualize in a way that "always catering to the interests of people's souls you devour" doesn't allow). So you have a particular good-aligned succubus who is, in addition to being beautiful, above all kind, and sensitive to others they are also among the greatest experts on one particular topic and you could send them to offer kindness to others pursuing work in that field who could honestly use an empathetic ear and a hug in addition to some advice.
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Lillend azatas are close enough. The only thing I would change is giving them shapechange so they can blend into societies and subtly influence poets and artists without them knowing. Plus,it's easier to inspire when you can change into anything.
There's nothing stopping you from swapping out one of the 2nd level Bard spells Lilends get with Alter Self as a GM.
This works out pretty well, even CR-wise.
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The bigger question is whether or not this particular aspect of Christian morality should have a place in Golarion. What narrative purpose does it serve? Given the amount that has been written about forbidden love/lust, and its long-standing ties to classic drama, I think it's a part of the source material worth preserving, just because succubi let you tell more stories.
Succubi are great storytelling elements and I'm certainly not suggesting we get rid of them.
However, it's also entirely possible to tell stories involving illicit sex without actually casting it as evil. And it can be interesting to develop a culture by defining what kind of relationships are acceptable.
For example, I've got an elven subculture in which it is perfectly acceptable for an elf to have an extramarital affair with a human, but not with another elf. This is because it is not considered possible for an elf to form a deep emotional bond with a short-lived human, and because half-elven children are easily identified and excluded from inheritance. There are least two angles to take with a "forbidden love" story in this setting.
1) An elf is in love with a human, but is under pressure to marry "properly." They can continue their relationship, but it will always be seen as lesser. Is that enough for them?
2) An elf disguises themself as a human in order to carry on an affair with another elf. Everyone knows about the relationship, but if they find out the lover is an elf it will be scandalous. (The fact that the lovers would conceive a full elven and not a half-elven child could cause problems...)
I don't see what additional stories anti-succubi would let you tell that couldn't be told simply by using a vanilla angel.
...
I mean, yes, the newly redeemed succubus could probably make coffee and answer the phones as well as anyone else.... but it's actually really hard to make use of a temptress ex-demon to "tempt" people into supporting Truth, Justice, Beauty, and the Golarion Way. There aren't really a lot of things that Shelyn could do with an ex-succubus that couldn't be done just as well by, for example, a vulpinal, or a balisse.
Well, what kind of stories can you tell with a vulpinal or balisse that you couldn't tell with a lillend? We don't really need a lot of types of celestials to tell various stories, but they can still add interesting flavour as unusual servants of a particular deity or cause.
The succubus makes a much better infiltrator than the vulpinal or balisse, so if I were Shelyn I'd have her seek out the most evil places in the material plane and either bring aid and hope to the good mortals trying to fight that evil, or else seek out those who might be redeemed in turn. The latter would work as Cenorin described - still very much about desire, but with a focus on leading a target to fulfill their desires in a nondamaging or even life-giving way. As several others have mentioned, she'd also be a very capable sex/relationship therapist.
The gancanagh can do some of the same things, but as OP pointed out it's a bit of a shame that they're supposed to be all male. As UnArcaneElection said, we're already changing the inspiration from a fey to an azata. I think we might as well allow them to be either gender.
Essentially going around to evil or negative energy infused, (otherwise)chaste beings offering redemption, then when the offer is taken they have sex with the subject, absorbing it and it's evil essence into themselves, making them pregnant and dissolving the evil entity complexly (as energy drain).
Then within a week(keeping it within reason for gameplay, otherwise a few months) the celestial succubus dissolves and the entity is reborn in her place, as a Celestial succubus(gender neutral), with this as a race and a geas to convert a willing evil(which once they resolve causes their own demise as it did the succubus that raised them, and they are then reborn again x days later to the nearest chaste, willing good aligned entity of any race, similar to a druid's resurrection).
Or you can do that.
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{. . .}
I mean, yes, the newly redeemed succubus could probably make coffee and answer the phones as well as anyone else.... but it's actually really hard to make use of a temptress ex-demon to "tempt" people into supporting Truth, Justice, Beauty, and the Golarion Way.
{. . .}
Well, that explains A LOT. If redeemed Succubi get stuck with making coffee and answering the phones, I can think of no more sure deterrent to the redemption of any more Succubi.
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Succubi -- demons in general, really -- are agents of a malign will and have a larger purpose they wish to accomplish. Anti-succubi would therefore be agents of a beneficent will and also have a purpose they wish to accomplish.I just can't figure out what that purpose would be. To bring joy to lonely teenagers across the world in order to help them develop enough self-confidence to establish relationships with other actual mortals? (Maybe.)
That's one purpose.
I would think the good succubus would promote romantic love instead of carnal lust. They might try to bring lonely people together, give confidence and inspiration to a would-be lover, try to reunite or reconcile couples who are fighting, make people realize that they are actually in love with each other, etc.
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So to my mind, a "good succubus" would target tyrants or similar people and tempt them toward the light side. This probably wouldn't take the form of sex, at least not the way a succubus tempts someone, because a tyrant can coerce or threaten women into satisfying his lusts. The good succubus is like the Ghost of Christmas Past, offering the villain what his evil lifestyle can't provide - inner peace, no one trying to assassinate you, relationships based on trust rather than fear, or maybe a second chance with that one girl that he's never been to win over despite all his power. The good succubus tells the tyrant that if he lets go of whatever pain or need drives...
I like this too. The "good succubus" convinces a tyrant to be loved instead of hated or feared or offers insight/guidance on how to change.
Lymnieris has both Lust and Purity as subdomains (and both prostitution and virginity in his portfolio), so that opposition isn't supported in Golarion.You misunderstand my point if that's the conclusion you draw. Let's try this from another angle:
If a deity's portfolio includes Strength, why would he have outsiders in his service that promote the exact opposite of Strength, which is, in this example, Weakness?
I really don't know how to respond to that. Too much of the uncertainty principle at work...
While there is some logic to how they made lot of the evil demon lords and archdevils, there is no logic to empyreal lords.
I have no idea what Paizo was thinking with some of them.
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While there is some logic to how they made lot of the evil demon lords and archdevils, there is no logic to empyreal lords.
I have no idea what Paizo was thinking with some of them.
Well, I think that's part of the problem -- but also part of the problem with the anti-succubus.
A lot of Paizo's product seems to have been created based on a misguided notion of symmetry -- we have demon lords and archdevils, therefore we need mirror images of them (empyreal lords).
Unfortunately, from a narrative perspective, the symmetry often doesn't make sense. You see this in other media as well -- in the Knights of the Old Republic video game, for example, the Light side is portrayed as "good," but the Dark side isn't so much "evil" as cartoonishly dickish. Tolstoy famously wrote that "happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way." Bunyan pointed out much the same in The Pilgrim's Progress; there is only one path ("the strait gate") that leads to "good" and all the other paths will lead, ultimately, to "evil."
Goodness, just ask any soldier. How many ways are there to be "out of uniform" as opposed to how many different ways are there to be correctly dressed?
The effect, mythopoetically, is that there are hundreds, thousands, or millions of fiends, each bent on persuading mortals to drift in one particular way from goodness (a friend pointed me to a particularly lunatic one from the 16th century, the Trouser Devil, whose apparent purpose is to tempt people into sinning by wearing Turkish trousers. Specifically Turkish trousers, I might add. Ordinary run-of-the-mill trousers were okay.) I supposed I could equally posit a Bikini Devil, a Hawai'ian Shirt Devil, a Blue Jeans Devil, a Cowboy Hat Devil, a Stiletto Heels Devil, and so forth, each of which would also be attempting to corrupt our valiant soldier from wearing his or her proper uniform.
How many Proper Uniform Angels can we posit? Is it sufficient to believe there is only one of them, or do we need (from symmetry) to assume there is a Not-Turkish-Trouser Angel (whose job it is to persuade you not to wear Turkish trousers) and a separate Not-Bikini Angel and a separate Not-Stiletto-Heels Angel?
Symmetry is an OCD trap. Not all things have counterparts.
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Let's say, for example, that Shelyn (who is big on redemption) managed to redeem a succubus. It's axiomatic that having one more person on the good guys' side and one less on the bad guys' side is a win for Good; that I grant.
But, as the dog said when he finally caught the car, now what the hell do I do with this? I mean, yes, the newly redeemed succubus could probably make coffee and answer the phones as well as anyone else.... but it's actually really hard to make use of a temptress ex-demon to "tempt" people into supporting Truth, Justice, Beauty, and the Golarion Way. There aren't really a lot of things that Shelyn could do with an ex-succubus that couldn't be done just as well by, for example, a vulpinal, or a balisse.
Well, Shelyn is the patron goddess of artists right? Who be better to send as a muse to a tortured artist looking for someone to paint than a 27 charisma outsider who can provide both inspiration and kindness.
Redeemed succubi are going to be rare enough (each one is going to be a character unto themselves) that they're most likely special agents where each one has a thing that they do better than anybody else around and they get sent to do those sorts of things, otherwise they just hang around like all the other good outsiders.
I think they work better as "not just a type" but as individual succubi who made the hard climb up to heaven for reasons that are their own. The way I might run it is that good aligned succubi tend to be somewhat obsessive about one thing in particular that interests them (indeed their reason for redeeming might be that they wanted to pursue their own interests and self-actualize in a way that "always catering to the interests of people's souls you devour" doesn't allow). So you have a particular good-aligned succubus who is, in addition to being beautiful, above all kind, and sensitive to others they are also among the greatest experts on one particular topic and you could send them to offer kindness to...
And you know what supernatural good creature of lust and sex can serve as a muse and boost artists (bards)?
Of course, the nymph.
Otherwise, I don't really get the need for an *outsider* good lusty creature. I mean, what's the point? Provide random celibate strangers pleasures of the flesh, guilt and consequence free, for no other purpose than the pleasures themselves? Or to teach the mortals the arts of pleasuring each other? I don't know about you, but at our all-male table, roleplaying this thing is more than a brief passing would come off as extremely awkward and creepy. Honestly, I think it'd be even worse in a mixed table.
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And you know what supernatural good creature of lust and sex can serve as a muse and boost artists (bards)?Well, Shelyn is the patron goddess of artists right? Who be better to send as a muse to a tortured artist looking for someone to paint than a 27 charisma outsider who can provide both inspiration and kindness.Let's say, for example, that Shelyn (who is big on redemption) managed to redeem a succubus. It's axiomatic that having one more person on the good guys' side and one less on the bad guys' side is a win for Good; that I grant.
But, as the dog said when he finally caught the car, now what the hell do I do with this? I mean, yes, the newly redeemed succubus could probably make coffee and answer the phones as well as anyone else.... but it's actually really hard to make use of a temptress ex-demon to "tempt" people into supporting Truth, Justice, Beauty, and the Golarion Way. There aren't really a lot of things that Shelyn could do with an ex-succubus that couldn't be done just as well by, for example, a vulpinal, or a balisse.
Er, the lillend? I mean, like, it's in the ^%*(ing description, FFS: "From the lore of numerous races come tales of these muses, particularly those that have taken a vested interest in the training of a single talented prodigy or the ongoing creation of some fantastic work of art. "
Otherwise, I don't really get the need for an *outsider* good lusty creature. I mean, what's the point? Provide random celibate strangers pleasures of the flesh, guilt and consequence free, for no other purpose than the pleasures themselves?
Well, that's the Manic Pixie Dream Girl trope (warning, TVTropes can be hazardous to your productivity), isn't it? But I don't see any reason for this to be a trope with a dedicated outsider to fill.
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I view temptation as being more of a chaotic strategy than an evil one so temptation and goodness are compatible. After all, people are tempted all the time to do "good" things in the real world:
- Parents tempt their children to follow the rules by offering them sweets if they behave.
- Governments tempt companies to donate their money or goods by granting tax benefits for doing so.
- Employers tempt their employees to invest for retirement by providing matching on retirement plans
Every time somebody in a position of power uses a carrot, instead of a stick, to get their way is essentially a temptation.
Here’s an example that might work in Pathfinder:
Commander Verix shivers in the night air, uncertain if the cause was the chill or the thought of what’s going to happen in the next hour. Fortunately, if his men noticed his discomfort, none of them dared to make a comment. His eyes glanced over the cargo they were guarding: a large cage with huddled halflings within; they were set to head to Egorian in the morning for public execution. A few months ago, Verix would not have cared less about the fate of a few rebellious slips; however, that was before he had met Aluna.
He knew, intellectually, that it was utterly scandalous for Chelish Officer to fall in love with a Halfling; but he couldn’t explain it other than the heart wanting what the heart wants. It was her eyes, it was like they burrowed into his soul and saw the real him. The plan was simple: he would order his men to follow a diversion and then release the Bellflower Operatives from their cage. It would mean the end of him politically and he would need to flee to Andoran, but Aluna would be with him. Besides, he knew he couldn’t do this work anymore; once he realized that Halflings were people just like him, he simply couldn’t continue. He felt Aluna’s mark on his chest, the one she left after their first night, warm pleasantly. He heard her melodious voice whisper in his ear, telling him it was time.