Actually, this question applies to any spell against a high-will-save opponent.
What techniques and tactics can be used to reduce your adversary's will save and make them more vulnerable to your big ave-or-suck attack? Especially against casters and proto-casters with high will saves?
Evil eye, misfortune, as said, are good options.
Quickening a low level spell can help with the action economy. At level 8 prediction of failure imposes a -4 penalty on almost all actions but it's probably too high level to be great.
Of course, stacking high stats and bonus to the saving throws is as useful as lowering the enemy's saves.
As I'm not a rich witch, Threefold Aspect takes the place of a headband of intellect and is usefull for giving me a +2 in all the saves to resist my spells and effects.
Hit them with a Fort or Ref targetting spell like Icy Prison, Baleful Polymorph (shuts down most casting even if they make the will save), or Flesh to Stone instead.
Alternatively, have either your teammates apply effects like the mentioned shaken (e.g. from intimidate), or with a quickened spell (or hex).
One level of Mesmerist lets you apply a -2 to Will (no save) as a swift.
Quickened ill omen is my go-to, along with adding persistent to the feeblemind. There's something very satisfying about telling the GM to roll 4 times and take the worst.
Bad thing of ill omen is that it allows a saving throw itself. That's why I don't use it very often.
Oooooh! I knew I could count on you lads.
Since I usually DM and rarely play above 8th or 10th level as either a player or DM, I'm new at running a burgeoning wizard - just reaching 11th level. Looking at cool stuff like the True Name arcane discovery; looking at other critters on the Monster Summoning 6 list; looking at Cold Ice Strike (swift fireball analogue at 6th?!?); looking at Chains of Light (save or suck, sure, but reflex, not will).
On another thread, I found the idea of using a reach metamagic rod and touch of idiocy. I'd always discounted touch spells, given how I didn't want to be standing next to some bad boy when I cast. But I never realized just how cheap a reach metamagic rod is. Almost makes Craft Rod attractive.
Then there's always Contingency or Getaway to save my own ass. Kinda spoils my image as a team player, though.
Feeblemind has always seemed like such a cool spell, and such a scary one to get inflicted with, but I gotta be realistic, it simply won't go through with most top-tier targets.
But if I can get a reach rod and cast Touch of Idiocy, and maybe one of the fighter guys can get off an intimidate... Hmmmm... Or maybe just spam Touch of Idiocy, since it's no save. Hit almost any character with that 3 times, and odds are one of his mental stats will be low enough to risk reaching 0, and his spellcasting stat might just get too low to cast his cool spells back.
I've always liked touch of idiocy for being such low level. You can quicken it and it still will be level 6, which can be affordable. I have a wand of reach metamagic that allows me to cast reach spells of 6th level or lower and it's really worth it. Almost all my spells, as a witch, don't have a lot of reach, combining my prehensile hair and reach spells I can deliver everything in a mostly safe way (prehensile hair also allows me to carry the rod and still have a free limb).
If you want to use reach spells be sure of having a good way to make those touch spells to land. You'll still have to make a touch attack to deliver them.
Quickened ill omen is my go-to, along with adding persistent to the feeblemind. There's something very satisfying about telling the GM to roll 4 times and take the worst.
Should be 3 times and take the worst, but that's still basically a giant middle finger to that guy in particular. Too bad he'll be too dumb to interpret it.
Bad thing of ill omen is that it allows a saving throw itself. That's why I don't use it very often.
No it doesn't. That's why you're gonna use it now ;)
Bad thing of ill omen is that it allows a saving throw itself. That's why I don't use it very often.No it doesn't. That's why you're gonna use it now ;)
I don't know why I had it classified in the chaotic shelves of my mind as allowing a saving throw. And as I don't have a lot of must-prepare level 5 spells in my list I guess I can spare some space for a quickened Ill omen or two to help with some sleepless creatures who need some extra help to have a comfortable slumber xD
If these casters are relying on buffs there's Dispel Magic.
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Be careful with Ill Omen. Some might cheese out of the effect by taking the penalty rerolls on the very spellcraft check used to work out what they were just hit with.
^That would make Ill Omen essentially useless(*) against most spellcasters, while leaving it fully usable against most martials. I don't think that was the intent, but fixing this would actually take a house rule.
(*)Edit: Until you get to higher levels.
Be careful with Ill Omen. Some might cheese out of the effect by taking the penalty rerolls on the very spellcraft check used to work out what they were just hit with.
Some similar things have happened to me with that spell. Fortunately, at higher levels it gives more rerolls so I can still waste one of them on that.
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There's something very satisfying about telling the GM to roll 4 times and take the worst.
Should be 3 times and take the worst
Er, what? Ill Omen is never more than "two dice, take worse". At higher caster levels, it affects multiple rolls (e.g. the next three savong throws).
Be careful with Ill Omen. Some might cheese out of the effect by taking the penalty rerolls on the very spellcraft check used to work out what they were just hit with.
Er, what? Spellcraft can be use to identify "a spell as it is being cast" - not after you got hit with it. The spellcraft check should be done before spell resistance checks (or saving throws, for other spells), and definitely before it has any effect.
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It's three because of persistent
Buff your own DCs and lower their saves. Or brute force it and just cast it multiple times, they are bound to roll a 1 eventually.
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It's three because of persistent
*Puts DUNCE cap on his head*
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10th level, Tattooed Sorcerer Kitsune with Fey bloodline.
Stats: 10-2 12+2 14 10 7 18+2+1(4th lvl)+1(8th lvl)
Feats:
1- Spell Focus(Enchantment)
3- Greater Spell Focus(Enchantment)
5- Spell Penetration
7- Greater Spell Penetration
9- Quicken Spell
FCB: +1/4 to the DC of enchantment spells
Familiar: Figment Peacock, spend 1 evolution point to give it a +8 racial bonus to Intimidate.
Base DC for Feeblemind (5th lvl spell): 10 + 5(lvl) + 6(Cha) + 2(Spell Focus) + 2(Fey) + 2(FCB) + 1(Kitsune)= 28
Before you cast, your familiar attempts a Demoralise check vs the target. Assuming you have full rank in Intimidate, it has a static bonus of +15 vs Medium sized or bigger creatures (+19 otherwise).
After that, cast a Quicken Ray of Sickening. It targets Fort, therefore it shouldn't be hard vs spellcasters, which are the main targets of Feeblemind (if the target is shaken, the effective DC is higher by +2).
If the target is both shaken and sickened, the effective DC is 32.
If you have a headband of Cha +4, it rises to 34.
If the target casts arcane spells, it rises to 38.
If you can afford a rod of Persistent Spell, target rolls twice.
All in one round.
It gets even better if your team mates help with some debuff:
- Cruel weapons make shacken opponents sickened
- Dirty tricks can make opponents sickened
- Riving Strike gives a -2 to ST (no save)
- Void arcane school 1st level power gives a -2 to ST (no save)
- Evil Eye hex gives a -2 to ST (for at least 1 round)
- Mesmerist gives -2 to Will ST (no save)
- Dual Cursed Oracle can make the target roll twice (no save)
- Ill Omen spell makes the target roll twice (no save)
make your dcs stupid high
You do realize that making that statement without saying how is completely useless, right?
There's something very satisfying about telling the GM to roll 4 times and take the worst.Should be 3 times and take the worstEr, what? Ill Omen is never more than "two dice, take worse". At higher caster levels, it affects multiple rolls (e.g. the next three savong throws).
Ill Omen has a very different wording than Persistent.
On the next d20 roll the target makes, it must roll twice and take the less favorable result. For every five caster levels you have, the target must roll twice on an additional d20 roll (to a maximum of five rolls at 20th level).
Benefit: Whenever a creature targeted by a persistent spell or within its area succeeds on its saving throw against the spell, it must make another saving throw against the effect. If a creature fails this second saving throw, it suffers the full effects of the spell, as if it had failed its first saving throw. A persistent spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell's actual level.
When both are stacked, you do the following:
Initial save: roll twice (Ill Omen), take the worst.If you succeed, reroll the save (Persistent) and, if Ill Omen still has rerolls remaining, roll that one twice, as well.
The shorthand is 4 rolls because that's table speed, but the action flow is Save (roll x2), if succeed Save again (roll x2).
Be careful with Ill Omen. Some might cheese out of the effect by taking the penalty rerolls on the very spellcraft check used to work out what they were just hit with.Er, what? Spellcraft can be use to identify "a spell as it is being cast" - not after you got hit with it. The spellcraft check should be done before spell resistance checks (or saving throws, for other spells), and definitely before it has any effect.
But a Knowledge (Arcana) check to identify "a spell effect in place" or "a spell that just targeted you" comes after the roll.
Heck, since Knowledge don't require an action, you can make one to identify that tree over there at no penalty.
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sorry, mine was by complete luck, we used roll 4d6 drop the lowest, I got a 18 and put it in my WIS (was a druid), +2 from half elf. by lvl 7 I hadn't gotten any treasure (gm used true random treasure rolling)
so I basically got all the gold from the boss fight of book 2 of RotRL. bought my self a headband of infinite wisdom, and 5 books. and the 1 lvl up point, and the occasional owls wisdom.
This has nothing to do with luck but with blatant disregard for both the guidelines and the rules of the game. A level 7 character is supposed to have 23,500gp, a level 8 character 33,000gp. Headband of Inspired Wisdom +6 costs 36,000gp, a +5 Tome of Understanding costs 131,250gp. So you had 7 times (for level 7) or 5 times (for level 8) your expected wealth. In addition, Owl's Wisdom is an enhancement bonus and thus doesn't stack with the Headband.
Starting with a 19 or 20 in the casting stat is not unusual, and doing so, as well as buying/upgrading your headband soon, is a good way to get higher DCs. But your character is way to far removed from normal gameplay to be of any use as an example.
@Quantum Steve: If your GM allows cheesy mechanic-abuse like that, you should start with the genie binding and blood magic abuse stuff. Ofr hit the GM on his/her head with a blunt objekt for being an a@#&!~$.
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Be careful with Ill Omen. Some might cheese out of the effect by taking the penalty rerolls on the very spellcraft check used to work out what they were just hit with.Er, what? Spellcraft can be use to identify "a spell as it is being cast" - not after you got hit with it. The spellcraft check should be done before spell resistance checks (or saving throws, for other spells), and definitely before it has any effect.But a Knowledge (Arcana) check to identify "a spell effect in place" or "a spell that just targeted you" comes after the roll.
Heck, since Knowledge don't require an action, you can make one to identify that tree over there at no penalty.
Given the spell explicitly says 'if you identify the spell, you can use a move action to get rid of one of the rerolls', I'd have to say identifying it doesn't count as one of the rerolls.
Besides the obvious point of the spell would be useless if that's how it worked, and rules should be interpreted reasonably occasionally.
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Eldritch Heritage Greater
Arcane Bloodline
Eldritch Heritage, Greater (Ultimate Magic) This can only be taken at character level 17 and you need charisma 17, but by selecting Arcane bloodline's 15th level ability, you can net +2 DC bonus to a school of magic. (Feat)
Bloody Tears and Jagged Smile
Bloody Tears and Jagged Smile (Rasputin Must Die!) Spells with the fear descriptor increase the dc by 4 (profane bonus). (Spell, wizard/cleric 2)
Arcane Concordance
Arcane Concordance (Advanced Player's Guide) 10ft emanation centered on you, gives arcane spells within the area a +1 enhancement to their DC, and allows a couple of free metamagics to be applied to it. (Spell, Bard 3)
Sharesister
Sharesister (Pathfinder Society Field Guide) Both targets have to be same gender, but allows you to give someone bonuses to CL and Spell DC's, at the cost of negative levels. A bit risky, best used if you like buffing people. (Spell, Cleric/witch 3)
Coward's Cowl
Coward's Cowl (Agent's of Evil) +1 to DC of readied spells aslong as you don't move closer to your enemies. (Spell, Alchemist/wizard/cleric/bard/mesmerist/shaman/psychic/witch 1)
Sacred Space
Sacred Space (Advanced Race Guide) Good spells, spell-like abilities, and channeled energy to damage evil outsiders, gain +2 to the DC. If the space contains an altar, shrine, or permanent fixture to your diety, it increases to +4. (Spell, Paladin/cleric 2)
Silver
Silver (Alchemy Manual) used as a material component will increase the DC of illusion spells by 1. (item)
Deific Obedience Mahathallah
Deific Obedience (Inner Sea Gods) Mahathallah grants +2 DC to illusion spells. (feat)
Dead Man's Headband
Dead Man's Headband (Ultimate Equipment) will increase the DC of any fear effect you create by 1. Note: it takes the headband slot, maybe see if you can combine it with a headband of int. (magic Item)
All-Seeing Eye
All-Seeing Eye (Giant's Revisited) +1 insight bonus to the DC of divination spells you cast. (magic item)
Dragon CraftingPerfume
Draconic Perfume (Dragonslayer's Handbook) increases charm subschool DC by 2 (Rosewood and Myrrh) or compulsion subschool by 2 (Sulfur and Honeycomb). (item)
Oakstewards' Favor
Oaksteward's Favor (People of the River) increases the DC of any enchantment spells the wearer casts against animals by 2. (magic Item)
Serpent Belt
Serpent Belt (Ultimate Equipment) increases poison by 4, whether your GM takes that to mean DC is up the them. (magic item)
Elemental Focus Greater
Elemental Focus/Greater (CRB) adds +1/+1 DC of spells with the energy type you select. (feat(s))
Outlander, Lore Seeker
The trait Lore seeker (campaign trait for ROTRL) lets you pick 3 spells to increase the DC and CL by 1 each. (trait)
Eastern Mysteries
The trait Eastern Mysteries (Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play) allows 1/day to increase a spell DC by 2. (trait)
Spell Focus Greater
Spell Focus/Greater (CRB) Increase the DC of a chosen school of magic by 1 (stacks with elemental focus). (feat(s))
Barbed Pentacle of Asmodeus
Barbed Pentacle of Asmodeus (Gods and Magic) Increase the DC of spells that are augmented by writing by 1. (Magic item)
Rod of the Wayang
Rod of the Wayang (Ultimate Equipment) +1 DC to spells of the shadow subschool. (Magic item, Rod)
Scarf of the Suggestive Dance
Scarf of the Suggestive Dance (Pathfinder Module: Murder's Mark) increases a bard's fascinate and suggestion bard performance DC's by 1. (Magic Item)
Perfect Golden Lute
Perfect Golden Lute (Ultimate Equipment) Increase all bardic performance DC's by 2 if using the lute. (Keep in mind this is an artifact, and up to GM territory if it's ever seen or owned) (Magic item, Artifact)
Player's Prize
Player's Prize (People of the River) Scribe it with a person's name and drop it into that person's pocket, they take a -2 (will save) against your bardic performances. (Very pricy option if you really can swing it) (Magic item)
Honorable mentions:
Below we have misc stuff that may not directly increase a spell's dc, but still worth noting.
Draconic Malice
Draconic Malice (Legacy of Dragons) Lets you cast fear spells on normally immune creatures. (Spell, Antipaladin/bard/wizard/bloodrager/cleric/inquisitor/mesmerist/psychic/sham an/witch 3)
Mesmerizing Tattoo
Mesmerizing Tattoo (Blood of Shadows) Whenever the bearer uses the hypnotism occult skill unlock, casts an enchantment spell that targets a single creature, or uses the hypnotic stare class feature, her target takes a –1 penalty on Will saving throws for the ability’s duration and the DC to affect the target with the hypnotism occult skill unlock is reduced by 1. (Magic Item)
Ability Focus
Ability Focus (RPG Beastiary) Increase a single special attack's DC by 2, check with your dm first. (Feat)
Sinner's Wage
Sinner's Wage (Champions of Corruption) If used as a focus component for a charm or compulsion spell below 5th level, the target takes a -2 penalty to resist acting against its nature. (Magic item)
Myrrh
Myrrh (Alchemy Manual) Spells of the abjuration school are cast at +1 CL for the purpose of CL checks and Dispel Checks. (item)
Genius Avaricious
Genius Avaricious (Pathfinder Adventure Path #30: The Twice-Damned Prince) Mammon's Mantle: grants up to a +5 untyped Charisma bonus which heightens DC's.
If you guys see any I missed, please let me know. (Don't include anything class specific, like Arcanist resivour/potent magic. Trying to keep it a general list)
Very cool list! Not much that my current character can use, but I'll keep it in mind. My best bets look like working with my party members to get them to use some debuffing tactics (like intimidate) to reduce the target's saves.
Thanx, all!
But if I can get a reach rod and cast Touch of Idiocy, and maybe one of the fighter guys can get off an intimidate... Hmmmm... Or maybe just spam Touch of Idiocy, since it's no save. Hit almost any character with that 3 times, and odds are one of his mental stats will be low enough to risk reaching 0, and his spellcasting stat might just get too low to cast his cool spells back.
Touch of Idiocy and similar spells apply a penalty. They don't stack with themselves, and they cannot push the penalty to matching the stat. So no going to zero and unconscious. They affect the target's spell casting DC, but not casting the spells in the first place. I.e. they can still cast anything they could normally cast, just with a lower DC. Enervation has the same problem.
Bestow Curse is much better since it can apply different effects on later castings. It also has a surer penalty amount. I would go for -4 saves followed by -6 on the casting stat, followed by 50% action. It is also ripe for GM approved curses that can also be annoying to the enemy, if you come up with some cool curses. I would suggest any 2nd level spell or less equivalent effect, used as a curse. Oracle curses might also fly.
/cevah
Cevah, thanks for that. I was misreading the Touch of Idiocy spell as if it were inflicting ability damage, like a shadow's touch. It still might be a good debuff, and my character has maxed UMD, so a wand of it would help debuff a little.
Bestow Curse is a tough sell in this case, since it's a will save. Since Feeblemind is also a will save (at -4 for casters!) I'd probably be better off just chucking that at him, than wasting turns trying to get a curse in, while the enemy is confounding us with his own spells.
Witch stuff is kind of off the reservation for our current campaign, but when we next hit a large city, maybe I can just possibly sneak a wand of Ill Omen into my shopping list.
Headbands, belts and stat-raising spells like Owl's Wisdom give a bonus of the same type, and hence do not stack. That's one of the first things I learned when coming onto these boards.
A 'permanent' enhancement bonus gives you extra spells per day but it's still an enhancement bonus and doesn't stack with other enhancement bonuses.
Cevah, thanks for that. I was misreading the Touch of Idiocy spell as if it were inflicting ability damage, like a shadow's touch. It still might be a good debuff, and my character has maxed UMD, so a wand of it would help debuff a little.
Bestow Curse is a tough sell in this case, since it's a will save. Since Feeblemind is also a will save (at -4 for casters!) I'd probably be better off just chucking that at him, than wasting turns trying to get a curse in, while the enemy is confounding us with his own spells.Witch stuff is kind of off the reservation for our current campaign, but when we next hit a large city, maybe I can just possibly sneak a wand of Ill Omen into my shopping list.
Feeblemind has a -4 to arcane casters, not divine casters.
Rather than a wand, get a staff with Ill Omen and Magic Missile at CL10. Easy to recharge, and the Ill Omen lasts 10 rounds/3 re-rolls. And the MM gives 5d4+5 damage. A wand of Ill Omen only lasts 1 round/1 re-roll. If you can UMD the wand, the staff has the same UMD, making it easy. The MM is to allow you to recharge easily.
Custom Rod of MM & IO CL10:
Magic Missile (5 charges, primary 1st level spell = 1,600 gp)
Ill Omen (1 charge, secondary 1st level spell = 6,000 gp)
Price 7,600 gp (3,800 gp craft)
Wand of IO CL10:
7,500 gp
Custom rod price is 100 gp more, but can be recharged.
High CL wand is 100 gp less, but can be spammed.
/cevah