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Honestly, the fighter is up there but I think the Inquisitor ultimately wins.
The fighter gets weapon spec and greater weapon spec, weapon training + gloves of dueling. Focused weapon isn't great, as you're starting with a d8 weapon. It takes until level 10 for their to be any damage gained, and until 14th level it's only a d10 vs a d8. Not great bang for the buck. Warrior spirit is really good though.
However, the Inquisitor can combine Heroism, Divine Power (for the extra attack), Greater Bane, Judgments, and probably some other buffs in there as well.
Warpriest (Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain) because of swift action self buffing, accessing to normally fighter only goodies including Weapon Training, Advanced Weapon Training, and gloves of Dueling.
I suspect Warpriest or Inquisitor walks away dealing the most damage as an archer. Fighter is a solid 3rd up there, but is the least well rounded due to no skill point or spells. I guess Sohei is up there with the fighter as well, since it gets Weapon Training and can pickup most of the same stuff that serves to make the fighter good. It does however lack weapon spec, greater weapon spec, but does get the most attacks out of anyone thanks to flurry and manyshot and rapid shot.
Actually, with the advanced weapon training stuff that might push Sohei past the Warpriest or Inquisitor.
base stats
16+2/18+2+1+1/7/7/14/7
total stats with items
20/24/7/7/14/7
+4 adaptive Composite longbow
gloves of dueling
belt of +2 str and dex
wf, pbs, precise, rapid, ws, deadly aim, manyshot, cluster shot, gwf
deadly aim is on, PBS is not factored in.
R1 fervor divine power
+23/+23/+23/+18 bow(1d8+22)
R2 sacred weapon for holy
+23/+23/+23/+18 bow(1d8+2d6+22)
R3 fervor cast good hope granted by deity
+25/+25/+25/+20 bow(1d8+2d6+24)
R4 quicken blessing for +1 insight
+26/+26/+26/+21 bow(1d8+2d6+24)
I'd suggest we stick to PFS legal stuff for the DPR shenanigans.
While it's nice to calculate DPR for multiple levels that's very time consuming...
Sohei gets all of those except the 'tons of feats'.Fighter is probably going to win out overall as far as raw pew pew is concerned.
Warrior spirit
Tons of feats for a feat starved fighting style
Focused weapon
Gloves of dueling.
Sohei doesn't get to enchant its weapon to an appropriate bane or other enchantment
Nor does it have access to gloves of +2 to hit and damage as a magic item
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Sohei gets all of those except the 'tons of feats'.Fighter is probably going to win out overall as far as raw pew pew is concerned.
Warrior spirit
Tons of feats for a feat starved fighting style
Focused weapon
Gloves of dueling.Sohei doesn't get to enchant its weapon to an appropriate bane or other enchantment
Nor does it have access to gloves of +2 to hit and damage as a magic item
Ummm... yes, yes it does. Those both require Weapon Training... which Sohei monks get.
Ummm... yes, yes it does. Those both require Weapon Training... which Sohei monks get.Sohei gets all of those except the 'tons of feats'.Fighter is probably going to win out overall as far as raw pew pew is concerned.
Warrior spirit
Tons of feats for a feat starved fighting style
Focused weapon
Gloves of dueling.Sohei doesn't get to enchant its weapon to an appropriate bane or other enchantment
Nor does it have access to gloves of +2 to hit and damage as a magic item
Huh, i missed that, but they cant take an AWT option until level 12, and they cant take the feat at all, meaning they can get 1 at the level i've been routinely assured the campaign is basically over at, and 1 at level 18. So they "can" but its not particularly timely or useful. A fighter has both before the sohei gets its first.
I'd suggest we stick to PFS legal stuff for the DPR shenanigans.
While it's nice to calculate DPR for multiple levels that's very time consuming...
Not really making the first set of calcs is time consuming but adjusting them by 2 levels probably wouldn't take that long.
Not really making the first set of calcs is time consuming but adjusting them by 2 levels probably wouldn't take that long.I'd suggest we stick to PFS legal stuff for the DPR shenanigans.
While it's nice to calculate DPR for multiple levels that's very time consuming...
PFS has a ruleset that holds down the weakest classes in the game and does little to rein in the most powerful. Its a pretty shit metric
Well the inquisitor would get 2D6+4 damage and +2 to hit per arrow, before wealth by level adjustments at level 12 fairly sure people who knew the other classes could say the same of their level adjustments.
I knew that off the top of my head.
The metric isn't great but it's not that complex either.
base stats
16+2/18+2+1+1/7/7/14/7
total stats with items
20/24/7/7/14/7
+5 adaptive Composite longbow
belt of +2 str and dex
pbs, precise, rapid, deadly aim, manyshot
deadly aim is on, heroism is on, PBS is not factored in.
no buff round
R1 swift bane
+19/+19/+14 bow(1d8+2d6+16)
R2 swift judgement
+22/+22/+17 bow(1d8+2d6+20)
R1 Divine power and swift action judgement
R2 swift bane
+25/+25/+25/+20 bow(1d8+2d6+23)
*All builds aren't factoring in fate's favored which is +1 to attack and damage for these divine casters
I think it's better to cast bane second round and judgement first since Bane has rounds per level judgement just lasts the combat
Also the bonus to hit is pretty sexy.
EDIT: Probably the other way round with greater bane though.
base stats
18+2/7/8/7/18+2+1+1/7
total stats with items
22/7/8/7/24/7
+5 adaptive Composite longbow
belt of +2 str
headband of wis +2
pbs, precise, deadly aim, WF, WS, cluster shot, other stuff that doesn't matter
deadly aim is on, PBS is not factored in, swift action for extra shot.
+18/+18/+18/+14/+14 bow(1d8+19) no manyshot on first attack
base stats
18+2/18+2+1+1/7/7/8/7
total stats with items
20/24/8/7/7/7
+4 adaptive Composite longbow
gloves of dueling
belt of +2 dex
ioun stone for +1 insight to attack rolls
pbs, precise, deadly aim, rapid shot, many shot
deadly aim is on, PBS is not factored in, swift action for extra shot.
+18/+18/+18/+18/+14/+14 bow(1d8+18) has manyshot on first attack
I think it's better to cast bane second round and judgement first since Bane has rounds per level judgement just lasts the combat
Also the bonus to hit is pretty sexy.EDIT: Probably the other way round with greater bane though.
for the no buff route I was guessing that bane was more DPR than judgement.
for the buff round version you'll see that I did judgement first for that very reason.
Accepting the +1 hit is worth +2 damage I think judgement just edges it out
Average of 7 from Bane and +2 hit, +4 damage from judgement
Probably not worth quibbling over though.
using the conversion bane is giving 13(2*2+2+7) damage and judgement is giving 10 (3*2+4)
+2/+2+2d6
vs
+3/+4
I totally forgot about the +2 enhancement Bane grants
base stats
16-2/18+2+1+1/8/7/7/13+2
total stats with items
16/24/8/7/7/15
+5 adaptive Composite longbow
belt of +2 dex and str
pbs, precise, Spirit Focus, rapid shot, many shot
FCB to increase seance bonus, PBS is not factored in, heroism is up.
+24/+24/+24/+19 bow (1d8+17)
pbs, precise, deadly aim, rapid shot, many shot
+21/+21/+21/+16 bow (1d8+20)
base stats
14/18+2+1+1/7/7/7/16+2
total stats with items
14/24/7/7/7/20
+4 adaptive Composite longbow
Bracers of the Avenging Knight
belt of +2 dex
headband of +2 cha
pbs, precise, Deadly aim, rapid shot, many shot, WF, GWF
Smite is up, PBS is not factored in.
+23/+23/+18 bow (1d8+26)
base stats
18+2/18+2+1+1/8/7/7/7
total stats with items
22/24/8/7/7/7
+5 adaptive Composite longbow
belt of +2 dex & str
pbs, precise, Deadly aim, rapid shot, many shot
reckless abandon
raging, PBS is not factored in.
+22/+22/+17 bow (1d8+19)
base stats
16+2/18+2+1+1/7/7/14/7
total stats with items
20/24/7/7/14/7
+5 adaptive Composite longbow
belt of +2 dex & str
pbs, precise, Deadly aim, rapid shot, many shot, WF
FE +6
instant enemy if not FE, PBS is not factored in.
+24/+24/+19 bow (1d8+22)
I knew that my inquisitor was a good choice :D
base stats
18/18+1+1/8+2/7/7+2/7
total stats with items
20/22/10/7/9/7
+4 adaptive Composite longbow
belt of +2 dex & str
Vambraces of the Tactician
ioun stone for +1 insight to attacks
pbs, precise, Deadly aim, rapid shot, many shot, WF
Dwarf FCB
challenge is up, PBS is not factored in.
+20/+20/+15 bow (1d8+32)
Just to clarify, Zen Archer Monks don't actually stop being good at Archery. Yes, other classes get Manyshot at 6th, but Zen Archers get additional attacks at full BAB at 8th and 15th level from Flurry of Bows (although Manyshot doesn't require an additional attack roll, FoB does give you another chance at a critical hit). Zen Archers can also burn Ki for another attack at full BAB.
It depends on what levels you want to be good at, and what you want to be good at. They're still worth considering beyond just "being good at 3rd level." :D
Sohei monk gets flurry, Manyshot and Rapid Shot.
He also gets Weapon Training.
Looks like the Monk, inquisitor and war priest bring the most
base stats
16+2/18+2+1+1/7/14/7/7
total stats with items
20/26/7/14/7/7
+5 adaptive Composite longbow
belt of +2 str
ioun stone +1 insight
pbs, precise, Deadly aim, rapid shot, many shot
transmutation into dex with 6 mental focus and a Possessed Possession of champion
activating spirit bonus as a swift each round, PBS is not factored in.
+20/+20/+15 bow (1d8+19)
Can add bane + something as a standard
R1 bane
R2
+22/+22/+17 bow (1d8+2d6+21)
base stats
18+2/18+2+1+1/7/8/7/7
total stats with items
22/26/7/8/7/7
+5 adaptive Composite longbow
belt of +2 str
ioun stone +1 insight
pbs, precise, Deadly aim, rapid shot, many shot, WF
transmutation with 6 mental focus
activating Heroic Splendor as a swift, PBS is not factored in.
+20/+20/+15 bow (1d8+17)
Can add bane + something as a standard
R1 bane
R2
+22/+22/+17 bow (1d8+2d6+19)
what about something like Inquisitor 12/Rogue 2? Everything with a save roll will have no effect on a pass...
anyway, monk, inquisitor, OPaladin and warpriest will have the best save rolls by far... if you look at fighter/ranger their saves are far inferior
There, that should be every good contestant. now someone can use that to figure out the DPR for the classes.
granted these all aren't meant for actual characters but just the most DPR the class can do for a comparison.
I don't know. It's 3PP, I don't look at it.
base stats
16+2/18+2+1+1/7/7/14/7
total stats with items
20/24/7/7/14/7
+4 adaptive Composite longbow
gloves of dueling
belt of +2 str and dexwf, pbs, precise, rapid, ws, deadly aim, manyshot, cluster shot, gwf
deadly aim is on, PBS is not factored in.R1 fervor divine power
+23/+23/+23/+18 bow(1d8+22)
R2 sacred weapon for holy
+23/+23/+23/+18 bow(1d8+2d6+22)
R3 fervor cast good hope granted by deity
+25/+25/+25/+20 bow(1d8+2d6+24)
R4 quicken blessing for +1 insight
+26/+26/+26/+21 bow(1d8+2d6+24)
Wait. Wait wait wait. How are you casting Good Hope? Warpriests don't get domain spells, right?
What is this madness?
This would help me in building a warpriest I plan on playing already - halfling warpriest, 15 point buy, has SUPER comparable damage stats while using a sling. Good Hope would be amazing to have on that build.
Zen Archer's damage output is not spectacular however as it lacks any form of to hit and damage bonuses.Point: Zen Archers get Perfect Strike and are the only ones that can use it with a bow. They also can use ki to replace their bow damage with their unarmed strike damage for a round. With a Monk's Robe at level 7 they can be doing base 2d6 damage per arrow and rolling twice and using the better roll for one of their attacks.
2d6 vs 1d8 is 7 avg damage vs 4.5 avg damage. It's virtually irrelevant compared to all the other damage bonuses that other classes get.
And getting perfect strike really isn't great either, you could have 20 attacks per day with perfect strike.
You're average archer will be making at least 20 attacks per combat once they have an iterative attack and rapid shot. Getting an always on actual attack bonus is far better on average.
Champion of the Faith Warpriest gets to Smite...
Zen Archer's damage output is not spectacular however as it lacks any form of to hit and damage bonuses.Point: Zen Archers get Perfect Strike and are the only ones that can use it with a bow. They also can use ki to replace their bow damage with their unarmed strike damage for a round. With a Monk's Robe at level 7 they can be doing base 2d6 damage per arrow and rolling twice and using the better roll for one of their attacks.
As Claxon pointed out the damage increase isn't that much, it's far better DPR wise to use that swift action for an extra attack.
2.5 damage x 4 = 10 damage
1 arrow is 23 damage
it is true that perfect strike can increase their DPR by giving their later arrows more chance of hitting. But my guy says it's not a very large DPR increase, but if you can show otherwise I'll gladly increase my opinion of it.
@Chess, how did ya get Good Hope on that Warpriest? It's not a cleric spell?
Zen Archer's damage output is not spectacular however as it lacks any form of to hit and damage bonuses.Point: Zen Archers get Perfect Strike and are the only ones that can use it with a bow. They also can use ki to replace their bow damage with their unarmed strike damage for a round. With a Monk's Robe at level 7 they can be doing base 2d6 damage per arrow and rolling twice and using the better roll for one of their attacks.2d6 vs 1d8 is 7 avg damage vs 4.5 avg damage. It's virtually irrelevant compared to all the other damage bonuses that other classes get.
And getting perfect strike really isn't great either, you could have 20 attacks per day with perfect strike.
You're average archer will be making at least 20 attacks per combat once they have an iterative attack and rapid shot. Getting an always on actual attack bonus is far better on average.
More to the point, getting additional attacks at full BAB is a more relevant in-class damage boost.
EDIT: Ninja'd.
Wait. Wait wait wait. How are you casting Good Hope? Warpriests don't get domain spells, right?What is this madness?
This would help me in building a warpriest I plan on playing already - halfling warpriest, 15 point buy, has SUPER comparable damage stats while using a sling. Good Hope would be amazing to have on that build.
it's the Unique Spell Rules for deities. here is a god that grants good hope to their clerics. And in divine anthologies it was confirmed that WP count as cleric for anything they have spell levels for. Though it actually doesn't work for my example since I only get 1 lv4 spell per day and that's divine power. I mis-remembered the spell level good hope came in at.
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Not sure if it's "the best," but I'm having heaps of fun with my Arrowsong Minstrel. I don't have as much of a damage output as a friend with a Fighter, but my spells more than make up for it. I'm a fair damage dealer, but I still have a lot of skills as a Bard, and I can provide some of the best buffs in the game.
it's the Unique Spell Rules for deities. here is a god that grants good hope to their clerics. And in divine anthologies it was confirmed that WP count as cleric for anything they have spell levels for. Though it actually doesn't work for my example since I only get 1 lv4 spell per day and that's divine power. I mis-remembered the spell level good hope came in at.
Wait. Wait wait wait. How are you casting Good Hope? Warpriests don't get domain spells, right?What is this madness?
This would help me in building a warpriest I plan on playing already - halfling warpriest, 15 point buy, has SUPER comparable damage stats while using a sling. Good Hope would be amazing to have on that build.
Cool, thanks! I've taken this into account for my new post in my slinger thread. It's super similar to the build you were using. Let me know what you think. Click click click.
Also, with a Lesser Extend Metamagic Rod, you can actually get +2 extra damage from Weapon of Awe (sacred bonus). I don't think your Arsenal Chaplain has a Sacred Bonus factored in yet. 20 minutes of +2 damage as you approach likely dangerous areas seems like a fair pre-battle spell prep.
There are plenty of strong archers (because archery itself is strong in Pathfinder). In addition to those already named: urban barbarian archers with Dex rage, bolt ace gunslingers (which are effectively "archers") can actually make crossbows even better than bows, elf Wood mystery oracles can pump Wood Bond to gain a better attack bonus than most full BAB classes (and the ancient lorekeeper archetype can pick up a few sorcerer/wizard goodies for their spell list like gravity bow and true strike), and paladin archers can make most BBEGs cry (briefly, as they eat a swarm of Smite Evil ranged attacks).
IMO, the "best" archer is still a [fighter or ranger] 1/wizard 6/eldritch knight 2/arcane archer 3/eldritch knight +8: +17 BAB and 9th-level spells.
Eldritch archer magus 8/arcane archer 3-4/magus +X is pretty decent if you want to do more with your arrows than "just" physical damage. Warlock vigilante 8/arcane archer 3-4/vigilante +X with a conductive bow also has some interesting options.
I have a lot of fun with readying vital strikes to interrupt spells.It just wreaks mayhem.