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Derklord wrote:
Not arcane ones.

This mostly just makes it seem like you do not understand that the only reason "arcane spellcasting" was considered better in the past is because before the new PF spell lists "arcane" meant "wizard spell list", which let you create your own universe to sit in and manufacture an army of simulacrums while casting Wish if you wanted to. Since you do not seem to realize this, the witch does not get the wizard spell list. Without the wizard spell list and picking through an always expanding several hundred spells arcane casting is actually weaker than divine casting.

You also do not seem to understand that witches mostly float around hexing things to debuff them but most hexes can only be tried once per target, which is their one big class feature and why they get 6 hexes by level 10. Not getting a choice of hex until level 3 and only 3 by level 10 is a large downgrade. If you wanted to just be an arcane spellcaster that doesn't attack, playing a wizard is massively overpowered in comparison to anything listed here. The fact that you do not seem to understand any of this means there's probably no reason to continue.

The (anti)paladin spell list is decent, but the fact that the witch spell list is not great is why I was considering making it like the existing 9th level casters with 3/4 bab. You are already missing the key crazy spells that let clerics be better fighters than fighters.

Derklord wrote:
You want to make a prepared arcane full caster with medium BAB, d8 HD, three good saves, Patrons, Lay on Hands, Hexes, the ability to quicken hexes, and an animal companion/parmanent SM?

It does not sound like you actually are reading how the proposed works. Three good saves is a downgrade from Divine Grace and prevents dipping just for Grace. Patron is just themed bonus spells. Hexes are greatly cut down from witches and share space with LoH bonuses, and using 2 uses of LoH to swift-cast a Smiting Hex like a Paladin does means you can do it only around the number of times a Paladin can Smite by using up all your LoH. The companion/summon is just like divine/infernal bond except you are risking your familiar AKA your spellbook if you want to go combat crazy.

Prepared full casters with medium BAB, d8 HD, and class features arguably on par or better than this already exist. Also literally everyone in the entire game can be having a permanent companion with full equivalent druid level. It is not a wild game-breaking thing to have as a possible class feature.

Well guessing you have 16 dex because you are a super str build with a str belt, so if someone is 20 feet away you get -2 from range and -2 from TWF, with +3 dex +3 styles +6 bab, you have a +8 to hit when enemy AC is probably 20+. With Spirit Surge +1d6 you still have around a 50% chance to hit. A stack of 50 distance +1 shuriken helps but costs 8000 gold. You are maybe seeing my reservations? It is very cool but shuriken->move is not a guaranteed thing.

If you took Pummeling Charge you could spend the shuriken money on an AOMF and just charge 120 feet and make a full twf unarmed attack against whoever you want is all I am saying. Then the next turn stack the AOMF bonus on top of your sword enchantment?

Unrelated I did have an idea for a full MoMS that might also be amusing: combining Ascetic Style, Jabbing Style, and Panther Style. Jabbing style counts the number of times you hit someone per round, and Panther style can let you make a whole bunch of retaliation attacks per round without TWF. At high levels eventually Crane and Panther would mean you rarely get hit.

MS 1: Combat reflexes +AS
MS 2: +PS
MS 3: Panther Claw
MS 5: Panther Parry
MS 6: +JS
MS 7: Power Attack
MS 9: Dodge
MS 10: +Crane Style/Snake Style
MS 11: Mobility
MS 13: Jabbing dancer
MS 14: Wildcard=Crane Wing/Snake Sidewind
MS 15: Jabbing Master
MS 17: Dragon Style
MS 18: Wildcard=Crane Riposte/Snake Fang
MS 19: Dragon Ferocity

You basically are running around people in a circle, using Panther to stack up retaliation hits that count for Jabbing style bonuses before you stop and make one standard action attack. Two-handing a sword with PA along the way. The requirements for Jabbing Master actually help you avoid all the AoO and eventually Crane Riposte gets the Jabbing bonus if you get attacked in the same round. Eventually you also need a 5th style just for the level 20 bonus.

Edit: Actually Snake style might be just as good as Crane if you are ok with tradings some defense for more offense.

That may be a good enough reason for the Tiger feats tax. I was more thinking along the lines of if you miss too many shuriken you don't get to pounce, and they only have a 10 foot range inc, and Tiger pounce only lets you move half your speed instead of double.

BTW is there a ruling on trying to use power attack while also throwing shuriken? Is it just a thing you cannot do or does the PA bonus and penalty not apply to the shuriken?

Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:
Blind Monkey wrote:
9th level prepared spellcasting as witch.
It'd be more appropriate to have witch casting up to 6th level the same way the hunter does with the druid list.

I sort of disagree, this is in the vein of the shaman, oracle, druid, and cleric as 9th level spells with 3/4 bab and d8 hd that can do a decent job of fighting if you build for it, except it uses Intelligence and has a weaker spell list. If you're going to cut it down to 6th level spells you need to add a bunch of entirely new features and bonus feats like the warpriest, hunter, inquisitor, etc. have to make up for it.

UnArcaneElection wrote:
I really do want to think of how to do a Witch/Paladin and/or Witch/Antipaladin hybrid, but my brain keeps wanting to make an archetype of either Witch or Paladin/Antipaladin.

Honestly the witch and (anti)paladin classes' actual features are sparse enough I think you could almost just smash them together on a 3/4 bab chassis with full spellcasting and the sheer action economy issues and not-amazing witch spell list would actually keep it in line.

Now I want to make a sketch:
Everything about the class (smite, lay on hands) is Int based because we have Oracles and Shamans already. 3/4 BAB, d8 hit dice, have to be good or evil. 9th level prepared spellcasting as witch. Medium armor proficiency and spellcasting in? Martial weapons.

Unique thing: Replace Smite Evil/Good with Smiting Hex: It functions like Smite (but maybe on anything to avoid "I'm useless against many normal enemies"?) but it's a reusable hex with standard action activation instead of a swift action. The fact that you're only a 3/4 BAB and d8 hp pulls the power boost down a lot and makes it needed for general combat.

Witch Familiar and spellcasting, but also get (anti)paladin spells. Maybe split up some Patron options between good and evil.

Replace Divine Grace with just having all 3 good saves?

Lay on Hands but Int based. Now sort of Fervor-like you can spend 2 uses of LoH to use a Hex (but NOT cast spells) as a swift action. Level 4 gets the spend 2 uses for Channel Energy. Probably burn through these like crazy, effectively 1/4 your level/day swift hexes if you use it for that.

Every 3 levels (3,6,etc) you can choose a Hex or Mercy/Cruelty. After level 10 you can pick Major Hexes. At level 20 you get one Grand Hex.

Divine/Infernal Bond: Level 5 gives your familiar celestial/infernal template and you make the choice between it getting the ability to enchant your weapon or getting the ability to change back and forth between familiar and equal druid level animal companion mount or a demon/angel buddy off the summon monsters. Powerful but extra risky because it's still your spell-toting familiar.

I think you could almost just smoosh all the paladin auras on and nobody would notice they're all so circumstantial.

Now this hybrid can do lots of things, but not all at once. It can Smiting Hex neutral people all day, but kind of needs to because of BAB. Has curse spells and paladin buffs but has to work them in between fighting and hexing. Only has half the hexes of a witch. Has all kinds of control options and decent fighting, but can't cast Divine Power or Haste on itself to win the DPR olympics like Warpriests and Inquisitors.

Pummeling style errata not only added the "unarmed no matter what" line, it also nerfed it to only work like Clustered Shots (but without its special) and not give you a super critical. Since you're unlikely to have such big DR problems with melee weapons the only real reason for Pummeling Style is using the Charge as pounce (or be taking lots of feats to use Bully for a free trip).

BadBird wrote:

The Monk Unarmed Strike class ability makes all unarmed strikes act as mainhand attacks - "there is no such thing as an offhand attack for a monk striking unarmed". So if you have Ascetic Form granting class abilities to a weapon in your other hand, it's not treated as an offhand weapon.

That being said, I'm not sure Power Attack is really worth it if you're already able to use Ascetic Dragon with two swords. Tiger Pounce though...

Ah yes, I forgot that they copied that into both Flurry and monk US abilities.

Despite the pummeling nerf, I wonder if P.Charge is still not better than Tiger Pounce here though. Tiger Claw says it requires "both hands free", which is inviting a weird argument to use and being more like a feat tax with AS, and Tiger Style isn't much better than Pummeling as a first feat in the chain since it is basically just giving you 1d4 bleed on crits with Ascetic. Both P.Charge and T.Pounce require Monk 8, but PC only requires one other feat and TP requires three other feats. MoMS is being feat starved enough as is especially if you do not want to actually use Power Attack. SO you could do:

1MS. Two-Weapon Fighting / +Ascetic Style / +Power Attack
2MS. +Dragon Style
3Me. Pummeling Style
4MS. [+1STR]
5MS. Dragon Ferocity
7MS. Boar Style?
8MS. [+1DEX]
9MS. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting / Wildcard-> Pummeling Charge

Then switch from Pummeling Style to Boar Style if you don't need to charge. That removes the necessity to hit someone with a shuriken and actually extends your range to normal charge range.

As far as I know you only ever get 50% power attack on your offhand with TWF even if you have double slice and AS+Dragon to get 1.5 str. That idea would work however if you dip MoMS 1/Brawler X and used the brawler flurry. OR you could be simply an unchained monk and flurry with a two-handed weapon for 1.5 str and 1.5 power attack on every hit without any styles.

Now I think taking 3 levels of freestyle fighter for its MoMS-lite fuse and unchained monk would let you AS+Dragon into having 2x str and 1.5 power attack on all your attacks...

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

That's quite an insult to Paizo you just made there, considering they're the ones who have written and endorsed the "plate of steaming poo" that you labeled the Sacred Fist.

Of course, while I don't disagree mechanically, the fact of the matter is that Paizo felt that the archetype (which was released in the same book that Hybrid classes debuted) was an appropriate Cleric/Monk hybrid substitution, since there was no Cleric/Monk hybrid class released in the first place.

Please, let us not herpderp around pretending that every attempt is a homerun and that Paizo needs cheerleaders for their strikeouts. And if you agree that mechanically it does not work, why are you lecturing people to stop wishing there was something that did work?

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Needless to say, your beef should be with Paizo (and their design of certain archetypes), and not with me stating the facts as they are apparent.

Telling people to stop posting about wanting proper hybrid classes because there are unplayable archetypes around is not stating any facts, it is something else entirely.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
But when a potential hybrid class can be easily covered through archetypes, then it's not really worth requesting, in the same vein that it's not worth making a FAQ when your GM can just houserule it for you.

An awful lot of the archetypes being offered up as solutions, like the Sacred Fist, are just hot garbage. Is like sitting down and ordering steak, and then you serve up a plate of steaming poo.

"But I ordered steak!"
"Part of this was steak once!"
"This is clearly full of corn!"

Perspicacious Wanderer wrote:
Something fun could be a Barbarian/Psychic or Medium where the rage is actually possession by another being or a darker alter ego with a completely different personality. Give it 4th level psychic casting and access to its own brand of rage powers.

The medium version of bloodrager could be pretty neat. A Possessed, in place of raging a demon or spirit possesses its body and do wacky harmful things. Maybe to switch things up more it can be a super switch-hitter, in that when not possessed raging it is a half-caster with 3/4 bab, or even a full caster, and when it is possessed it becomes a full bab lots of extra temp HP barbarian thing with no casting but rage abilities like shooting people's heads off with arrows, running up walls, teleporting, or poltergeisting random big objects as weapons. Maybe Head Spinning and Pea Soup Vomit for good measure.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Still another build that I'm excited to play is a Natural Attack build with Warpriest. Play a Tengu with Claws and a Bite and use Sacred Weapon Damage instead of the regular damage.

Isn't the problem with that though that you have to take Weapon Focus separately for each type of natural attack? Weapon Focus Claws, Weapon Focus Bite, Weapon Focus Hair, etc. That was how people were agreeing you had to do it the last time I remember it coming up.

I did not even notice the to hit boost before. But even that bonus still leaves it with less attacks than full BAB so it's nothing special. Taking the TWF feats will indeed basically give you back the same flurry progress as a normal core monk after level 9 but you have to spend all those feats and meet the dex requirements. Regardless the reason the MoMS is sucking in general is because it now has to meet all the random requirements for all the style feats after the first, which a +3 attack bonus doesn't fix. And the benefits of not dipping do not even kick in until level 8.

I suppose you could attempt to combine Ascetic Style (exploiting you only need the first feat as a monk), Jabbing Style, and Dragon Style. Using cestus(es?) I am guessing because core monks do not get monk weapon proficiency.

Let's see, you don't have flurry so Jabbing has to be a bonus feat if you want it before 6th level. Maybe 1:TWF, AS, 2:Jab, 3: Dragon, 5: Dodge, 6: D.Ferocity, 7: Mobility, 9: ITWF, 10: Jabbing Dancer, 11: Power attack, 13: Jabbing Master. 14: Pummeling Style 15: Pummeling Charge. Because you don't have a flying side kick.

Requires 15 Str, 17 Dex, and acrobatics so far, which is doable. Greater TWF requires 19 dex which is maybe less doable since you are desperately a strength build, even with 7 int and cha you are being pretty low on your prime stat relative to most people. Say you get it at 17. At level 20 you can supposedly fuse 5 styles, but even though this build is cheesing styles that only need one or two feats instead of the full chain you only have two feats left. Your starting array with say Dual-Talent Human would be needing to look like 16+2s/16+2d/14c/7i/13w/7cha just to function.

So in the end your main hand cestus does unarmed damage + 1.5 str, your offhand does + 1 str, and you can pounce with jabbing style. But you are squishy and can do nothing else. I am not sure I would not rather just take a one/two level dip and go, I dunno, strength-based Slayer for TWF style and sneak attack.

Ranishe wrote:
Nitro~Nina wrote:
What's frustrating is that it's a feature of the system that literally only impacts martials, and the removal of it would do a lot to improve martials in general. It'd make Magi stupid powerful though... maybe you still have to spend a full round if you wanna Spell Combat?

I'm actually curious about this. On the one hand I dislike the overall hit to "power" that reliance on full attacks is. However, without it, I don't see a way to differentiate a mobile martial character vs a non-mobile one, other than movement speed.

For example, take the concept of a character that uses spring attack regularly (or bladed dash to equivalent effect). The idea being the character moves in, strikes, and moves out of reprisal range as one move. If pounce or equivalent features are regularly available, such a character becomes impossible to build. Every martial would be "run up and full attack" in varying flavors.

I think that preserving the options for different fighting styles (such as one focused on spring attack) is wise, and if "move and full attack" becomes widely available....I don't see a way to do that...does anyone else?

Don't attacks of opportunity kind of cover this? If a fighter runs around smacking people while moving with this idea he still gets hit by AoOs. The spring attack guy and bladed dash magus don't trigger any. Use the "full attack spring attack" idea and there is your answer, the guy who doesn't invest in it gets beaten up while moving around enemies.

Then vital strike can be kicked out of the game and stop trapping people.

If the issue is more that you don't like pounce vs spring attack, well almost everyone other than the Fighter gets pounce anyways. And before multiple attack pounces when everyone has one or two attacks a normal charge is almost just as hard a counter to spring attack. Mobile fighting style is just not really an effective thing in PF right now.

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At Crane Riposte you are only taking a -1 to hit for +3 dodge AC and another +4 vs the one attack.

Say a Zen Archer with one level of Empyreal Sorcerer. Multiple races let you start with 14 S, 14 D, 14 C,10 I, 18 W, who cares about cha. You can dump int for more str if you want, but it doesn't matter for this. Let's say you are a tiefling and take armor of the pit for 2 natural armor. Take magical knack so mage armor lasts 3 hours.

At level 9 for +2 wis from level, +4 wis headband, dusty rose, and 25K wealth by level left to spend, then the Crane Style chain, I think it is:
dex 2 + wis 7 + monk ac 2 + qinggong barkskin 3 + natural armor 2 + mage armor 4 + shield spell 4 + dodge 1 + crane 3 + dusty rose 1 = 39 AC, possible 43 AC vs one of the attacks. And you are a fully functional archer.

At level 7 you would have 37/41 AC and no Crane Riposte.

You could ask your GM if you can use more realistic weights for items.

D&D and PF weights are insane and arbitrary, and frequently at least twice what anything real weighs. For instance in real life "longswords" weigh 1 or 2 pounds, and a six foot long greatsword is maybe 4 pounds. It should be pretty obvious that a coffee pot does not weigh the 4 pounds randomly assigned to it. A watch is not a full pound. Your everyday clothes do not weigh the 5-10 pounds that whoever wrote the sections is thinking they do.

This is part of why so many people ignore encumbrance.

Also, another question: Are all the animal companion archetypes as terrible as they look at first?

Losing multiattack means nothing for most (but not all) companion animals, losing share spells, evasion, and devotion looks like a pretty bad trade for most of their powers.

Has anyone tried any of them?

James Risner wrote:
@Blind Monkey, again you can put one of your 9 squares on top of a medium target and then move off. So you generally can always trample who you'd like without intentionally "accidentally ending in an illegal square" or requiring the targets to move.

Yes, but that would be silly since instead both you and your mammoth could full attack that one target instead of moving 10 feet to nowhere to trample it.

Where I think this is a bigger problem is say a street with various enemies scattering around. Logically you should be able to have your mammoth run down the street trampling everyone in your way like in real life. Instead if the enemies are arranged so you cannot place yourself somewhere empty you either bounce back to somewhere else or are told you cannot trample anybody just because?

Also just noting the mammoth in questions is a 4 by 4 square, not a 3 by 3.

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avr wrote:
OK. The black blade seems more like an extension of you,

... suddenly I want to be able to take a level of Master of Many Styles with Boar Style (slashing unarmed attacks), and then have my hand turn black and be possessed by becoming a Bladebound Magus with my hand as the black blade.

The deer horn knife range does sound nice, though part of why I was liking the dan bong is that they are even more expendable than shuriken, at low levels you can buy 100 dan bong for the cost of one deer horn knife and it won't even be giving you encumbrance problems! Did you flurry a bunch of dan bong at something off the side of a cliff? Shrug at the lost ones and move on!

Does a warpriest even need Ascetic Style? It seemed like I could save on that whole feat chain by just being a Warpriest and use Startoss Style instead. Chaplain is nice synergy because it loses Sacred Armor and you don't wear armor anyway with the monk level. You lose the second flurry attack at level 11 but gain Divine Favor and Sacred Weapon. You can also AWT back your Warpriest damage for nothing but bonuses everywhere!

Let's see, at level 10 you could be throwing 4 things that start at 1d8 + 6 from startoss + 2 from weapon training... There is also the question of whether or not to go to level 3 monk for the ki pool. The problem is there are so many options I'm not exactly sure what to do.

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lemeres wrote:
What drama comes from the good succubus equivalent? "She tried to seduce you, but she is an angel, so everyone just gives you high fives?".

Hehe, now I am imagining a campaign where the PCs have to fight through her several thousand other suitors while somehow still being good enough to impress her to go on a date.

And of course if you do wind up in a relationship demon lords will keep trying to capture her all Bowser-like because everyone wants an angel-succubus, so the PCs have to Mario it down into the depths of the universe's plumbing to rescue her. But then a different demon lord will have stolen her from the first. What a twist!

"Your angel-succubus is in another castle!"

This is now reminding me of an idea I had for flurry throwing:

Take one level of Unchained Monk for the flurrying (and proficiency) with all monk weapons that is basically a superior form of TWF#1 here. Then take all the rest of your levels in Chaplain Warpriest to raise the damage dice to d6 and get Rapid Shot. Monk flurry doesn't stack with TWF but doesn't say it doesn't work with RS, so you should be able to always get two extra shots at max BAB with only a -2 to hit.

At first I was thinking of shuriken flurries, but then I realized I don't know how to get effective magic shuriken without trying to cast abundant ammo and greater magic weapon before every fight.

So then I notice the wushu dart with enhancements is like its own version of that but you have to stay within 20 feet. maybe the best option as long as you never melee.

Also I notice the Dan Bong is actually half the cost of shuriken, has no weight, 19 crit range, and is a thrown melee weapon. At the start of the game you could just carry a giant 0 weight bag of dan bongs to throw at people. So it would cost the quickdraw feat and a blinkback belt/ricochet toss when you enchant one of them, but in the end maybe be even better since you are using the warpriest focus to both melee in an emergency and throw.

James Risner wrote:
Isn't the "Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space" that forced movement rule you want? Also, remember it's "accidentally" which isn't "I use my movement knowing I'll not get clear then yoyo." Your GM will respond with "No, that is an illegal move make a legal one".

I was more thinking along the lines of in real life if an elephant runs into the space you were standing you either wind up under the elephant or next to the elephant that is now standing where you were.

The telling of people they can't trample someone because they would wind up on top of someone they were trampling and so they can't make that move at all reminds me of the wargame Warmachine where they have that as a rule. It basically turned into a big hardcoded exploit that means giant things can't ever actually trample anyone because they stand in a spread out formation so an elephant can't quite move to a legal space and thus everyone is immune to being trampled.

Nord wrote:
This graph assume all attack hit, making warlocks touch AC attacks less important.

The problem is that to hit vs AC is the reason the EA does not do near that much damage. If chance to hit didn't matter in damage calculations the core rogue wouldn't suck. I spent a while figuring the numbers using the actual calculation for DPR once before: ys-guide-to-the#2440

For the tldr: By level 11 an optimized EA is doing around 75 average damage while the regular physical composite blast (that costs no burn with the improved gather) is averaging 68. If you want to accept burn to nova burst you will always be using an empowered composite blast (94 damage) instead of the EA special even if you are an EA. A notable other figure there is that chain lightning infusion blast that only hits 4 targets averages 156 damage.

I have not done the Warlock numbers, (and the handy calculator's domain has expired it looks like) but as a touch attack with the gloves working to do 2d6 damage it will probably do similar or more damage than the EA actually does on average. And it will have actual class features like spells.

Also remember that regular kineticists can fly, turn invisible, and earth glide at will, and the EA can never do anything but walk around like a martial. Never be an EA.

Yes, but the questions was because of Animal Ally weird writing not having been ever updated.

James Risner wrote:

So sounds like "move through" is an important part of you didn't exceed by 5 (which you didn't roll so you can't exceed).

So yea you need to clear their space or be punted to a legal square.

Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space: Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it's not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there's a legal position that's closer.

That sounds like it could get weird fast! You would think there would be a kind of forced movement rules somewhere in such a simmy game to handle this kind of thing instead of yoyo gargants.

James Risner wrote:
3) no, you are medium. You can make an attacks from any square your AC shares using your reach.

Oops, this is actually what I meant. Spacial size, not Size category.

Trample says nothing about what happens when trampling something and standing on its head. It works like overrun, except you make no checks, instead you just automatically deal slam+1.5 strength damage to everyone you step on with no chance of failing the overrun. #TOC-Trample-Ex-

Prof. Löwenzahn wrote:
(via multiclassing in Master of Many Styles Monk to get it without BAB requirement)

I think MoMS got nerfed so that you cannot do this anymore. It only ignores requirements for Style feats (which are now only #1 in the chain), so the main reason the archetype exists now is a 2 level dip to get fuse styles and pick up the first feats as bonus feats. But anyways, if you did have the feat:

1. I think you are right about the initiative, though if you use Overwatch every round your place in initiative will change every single round as you cycle through the other characters being the last one you hit.

2. Yes but technically you are maybe skipping your own turn in the second round and then ending with going before B, resulting in A getting a turn the next round before you go again before B.

(Personally I am thinking the initiative change rule is complicated and was a bad idea, but that is neither here nor there.)

3. If you are worried about this you can simply ready your action to "Shoot mans whenever they start to take a non-walking-around action" to make sure you get them every turn unless they don't take an action.

A chainsaw sounds fun! I was thinking trample/goreslam someone then depending on how far moved either hit them with a Sansketuon or flurry with it, if not using the bow. Monk mammoth (Mammonk?) should be pretty hard to hit despite its size.

Ascalaphus wrote:

That in itself will not satisfy the entry requirements for Mammoth Rider: 9 ranks in various skills (so no entry before level 10), an an effective druid level of 6 for your companion. With Boon Companion, that means you need at least 2 actual druid levels (or something else with a compatible companion, like cavalier or hunter).

Boon Companion raises your effective druid level by 4, up to a maximum of your total character level. So if you're Druid 1/Monk 5, you get an effective druid level of 5. If you're Druid 5/Monk 1, you get an effective druid level of 6. The point of the feat is basically to maintain an animal companion even though you're dipping something else; you can't actually get ahead of schedule.

Sorry, I know it requires the 9 ranks, I was meaning Animal Ally before taking a Druid level:

Animal Ally wrote:
You gain an animal companion as if you were a druid of your character level –3 ... If you later gain an animal companion through another source (such as the ... nature bond class features), the effective druid level granted by this feat stacks with that granted by other sources.

So it's technically stated as some sort of your CharLvl-3 + your druid level and then Boon Companion gets added to one of those to make your effective druid level higher than your actual level? This seems like something that the design team should've hashed out by now, right?

Ascalaphus wrote:
Blind Monkey wrote:
Does Ki Mount give your animal your monk AC bonus if it is wearing barding but you are unarmored like usual?
I don't think so. The mammoth gets the whole ability, and the ability does state "He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load." The mammoth doesn't get to cherry-pick the sentences of the ability that are convenient.

That would make sense, I was just wondering because it says that it gets your AC bonus and other various monk abilities.

Ascalaphus wrote:
You only get bow penalties if the mammoth is moving more than a single move action.

The monster trample is a full action charge overrun. So would that mean if it only moves its speed you don't take penalties, but if it moves double speed you do? Or does it always incur penalties being a charge thingy?

So, say I take five levels of either Sohei or Unchained Monk and the Ki Mount ability, Animal Ally, then one level of Goliath Druid and Boon Companion before I become a Mammoth Rider. (Mammoth Rider gives you a naturally Huge mammoth, and Goliath Druids get to cast enlarge on their companion "even though you usually cannot".)There are many things to be keeping track of, not least how mounted combat is actually supposed to work. Some, but surely not all, of the questions I have:

Does Ki Mount give your animal your monk AC bonus if it is wearing barding but you are unarmored like usual?

How exactly does Animal Ally+Boon Companion stack with Druid levels? Is it total character level + druid level again as I have seen suggested?

Do you count as the size of your mount with your normal reach added on from that?

Related, do you provoke opportunity attacks from people within reach of your mammoth if you shoot them, or not because you are sitting 20 feet up in the air?

What happens to someone underneath a trampling mammoth if it doesn't move fully past them?

Does it sound more fun to whack people with a melee weapon as your mammoth tramples them, or to make full attacks with a bow with the -4 penalty?

Yes, but then you would be doing better damage not using the Elemental Annihilator features at all and you gave up all the Kineticist class features for no reason. Nobody should ever take the EA archetype.

Derklord wrote:
Blind Monkey wrote:
The odd thing is that all the other feats here do the same thing. Which would mean that none of them are functional anyways and we might as well ignore the entire special part of all the weapon styles.
Why? The styles themself still function with other weapons, just not the followup feats. So shuriken thrown by a lvl7 Monk with Ascetic Style penetrate cold iron DR (and deal 1d8 damage), while a character with all three startoss feats get +6 on damage rolls with any "thrown weapons that she wields in one hand".

Well usually if you cannot get the benefit of the other two feats in most of these weapon styles there's no reason to use an alternate weapon. Also the author of Ascetic Style has said that the line "effects that augment US" in the first feat is supposed to be attached to the talk of feats. You do not get to use the unarmed strike damage (of a monk 4 levels lower than your character level) without the second feat and you do not get the DR piercing until the third feat.

QuidEst wrote:
gendoikari87 wrote:
Blind Monkey wrote:
CalethosVB wrote:
While the EA deals similar damage to the standard kineticist, wouldn't it be more consistent due to multiple shots per round vs a single big shot, which EAs can still do if they want?

Sort of? The EA's accuracy is brought down by relying on the TWF/Rapid Shot and Power Attack/Deadly Aim feat chains to do about 5-10 more average damage a round than a kineticist using a physical blast, and they both have to target normal AC. If the EA has to "switch hit" they lose all their feat benefits and do less damage than a normal kineticist. EA's also give up all their class features like setting people on fire or making area attacks, if a regular kineticist can hit two or three people with an AOE blast power they will do more damage than the EA.

An energy blast that is targeting touch AC actually has better average damage than the physical blast despite lower damage per shot because of hitting more. EAs cannot use energy blasts so they just suck right out of the competition back to suckville.

so here's an obvious question if the kineticits always have to target normal ac, doesn't that give a major advantage to the warlock? on top of being able to cast spells?
Kineticists don't have to just target normal AC. Energy blasts target touch AC. Elemental Annihilator (the archetype) works with physical blasts only, at least until you get your expended element at 7th.

Nah, sadly in the middle of the EA devastating infusion text is there this clause: "This is a 1st-level form infusion that costs 0 points of burn and can be used with any physical blast (but not energy blasts)." The EA can still hit, but is relying on iteratives to do more damage than a normal kineticist. Energy blasts will pretty much always have better accuracy since touch AC is basically not going up with levels so they do just as much or more average damage over time.

ShroudedInLight wrote:
Nope, precise strike does not require you to have a free hand. It requires you to not attack with a weapon in your other hand or use a shield other than a buckler. Since you are not TWF, you should be good.

Oh yeah, that was what I am remembering: Someone arguing that precise strike requires you to not attack with a weapon in your other hand, but because your other hand is helping hold the glaive it is actually attacking and doesn't work with precise strike. Even though it says it does.

I think it is silly and Bladed Brush should work with everything mentioned myself.

Derklord wrote:
Ascetic Style's special section says you can use Ascetic Style with other weapons then the chosen weapon. Sadly, AForm and AStrike reference not 'any weapon used with Ascetic Style', but specifically "the chosen melee weapom" (for AForm) or "the chosen weapon" (for AStrike). You only ever chose one weapon, and that one has to be both melee and from the monk fighter weapon group.

The odd thing is that all the other feats here do the same thing. Which would mean that none of them are functional anyways and we might as well ignore the entire special part of all the weapon styles.

CBDunkerson wrote:
With the Startoss feats it seems pretty clear that references to 'thrown weapons' are referring back to the 'fighter thrown weapon' group in the main feat.

These feats are odd in that Startoss is just exemplifying the problem of half the Fighter Thrown Weapons not being thrown weapons. Clearly you can use slings with Startoss Style, because it says you can as they are part of the weapon group. But then it is very specific about also being able to use any one-handed throwing weapons. Can a fighter with throw anything not use improvised one-handed thrown weapons with Startoss? He can use nets, but not rocks? Very strange. The same problem applies to the monk weapon group included a weapon that is not a monk weapon.

I think it seems they are intending the feats to work with all the weapon group weapons and also tried to future proof/catch-all them to work with obvious weapons that aren't in the groups. They could probably use some errata to make that clear.

Ryan Freire wrote:
Edit: and im not sure what you mean by spiked chain and throwing.

It is cutely dishonest how you edited your angry snark about throwing spiked chains with Startoss Style out.

Ascalaphus wrote:
I don't remember anyone questioning that it works with Precise Strike. The things called into question were Slashing Grace and Spell Combat.

I think the thing that people were arguing it doesn't work were saying is that even though it counts as a one-handed weapon it still takes up your free hand to wield. Since Slashing Grace, Spell Combat, and Precise Strike all have the same requirement of a free hand that means it either works for all of them or none of them. So people were arguing that it does not do what it says it does, and I don't think anyone managed to be convinced by the other side.

Ryan Freire wrote:

Other weapons of that weapon group is longer than any thrown/heavy blade/etc Thats my entire point regarding space considerations.

Go through every one of those styles and add weapon group, or fighter weapon group to it and you're going to add a page to the book and probably screw up the margins that allowed them to keep sections separated.

What? No it's not. The quotes are all right there. You can count the letters and see that it would be shorter to say weapon group instead of the language used. Or "any weapons of that group." if you were in desperate need of space. This is objective fact.

Can you even use a spiked chain as a one-handed throwing weapon? It is a two-handed weapon, I don't remember if there's a way to make it one-handed.

Well I suppose it is possible that instead of saying "a character with [weapon training] can use [style] with other weapons of that weapon group," they wasted a bunch of extra words and space despite having constraints because everyone involved in the book pulled a dumb.

And it probably is true that no PF players would be able to agree whether a weapon is a heavy blade, light blade, or polearm.

What? None of the other similar feats look to be saying what you seem to think they say.

Empty Quiver Style wrote:
Special: In addition to the chosen weapon, a character with this feat and the weapon training (bows, crossbows, or firearms) class feature can use Empty Quiver Style with any bow, crossbow, or firearm, respectively.
Overwatch Style wrote:
Special: A character with this feat and the weapon training (bows, crossbows, or firearms) class feature can use Overwatch Style with any bow, crossbow, or firearm, respectively, in addition to the chosen weapon.
Spear Dancing Style wrote:
Special: A character with the weapon training (polearms or spears) class feature can use Spear Dancing Style with any polearm or spear, respectively, in addition to the chosen weapon.
Startoss Style wrote:
Special: In addition to the chosen weapon, a character with this feat and the weapon training (thrown) class feature can use Startoss Style with any thrown weapons that she wields in one hand.
Swordplay Style wrote:
Special: A character with the swashbuckler weapon training or weapon training (heavy blades or light blades) class feature can use Swordplay Style with any light or one-handed piercing melee weapon, heavy blade, or light blade, respectively, in addition to the chosen weapon.

Nothing says you can only use things from the weapon group, they are all clearly being inclusive, probably for the future-proofing to avoid the very thing you are claiming. Saying slings work with Startoss is also seeming to clearly supposed to be extra inclusiveness because you can pick slings to start with as chosen weapons for Startoss Style. Your view basically is going to the reverse of both the RAI and the RAW as far as I can see.

Ryan Freire wrote:
If you have to bring up theoretical weapons that have yet to be designed you don't have much of an argument.

You are the one seeming angrily claiming that your interpretation of someone else's RAI supersedes the RAW.

CalethosVB wrote:
While the EA deals similar damage to the standard kineticist, wouldn't it be more consistent due to multiple shots per round vs a single big shot, which EAs can still do if they want?

Sort of? The EA's accuracy is brought down by relying on the TWF/Rapid Shot and Power Attack/Deadly Aim feat chains to do about 5-10 more average damage a round than a kineticist using a physical blast, and they both have to target normal AC. If the EA has to "switch hit" they lose all their feat benefits and do less damage than a normal kineticist. EA's also give up all their class features like setting people on fire or making area attacks, if a regular kineticist can hit two or three people with an AOE blast power they will do more damage than the EA.

An energy blast that is targeting touch AC actually has better average damage than the physical blast despite lower damage per shot because of hitting more. EAs cannot use energy blasts so they just suck right out of the competition back to suckville.

Sure, I was just saying that Precise Strike is nice, but it's not great enough to actually go out of your way to plan around if your GM falls into the "Bladed Brush does no do what it says it does" group.

So based on something you CBA to dig up your stance is being that if you have weapon training (thrown) and don't pick a sling as your chosen weapon, you can use slings with Startoss Style but not any single handed thrown weapons that might come out but haven't been already listed in the fighter thrown weapon group?

Derklord wrote:
Weirdo wrote:
I think it does apply to the entire style chain.
Nope. Ascetic Form and Ascetic Strike only mention "chosen weapon", and don't have a special section like Ascetic Style does.

So your assertion is that none of the style chains with the special that let you use other weapons than the chosen one actually work because they don't copy that special into every single feat of the style chain? Maybe we should FAQ this.

Ryan Freire wrote:

A spiked chain is a flail and never a weapon from the monk fighter weapon group.

The monk ability they reference means you can flurry with it. Thats about it.

Edit: To clarify the enormous body of conversation on the style feats in WMH (mostly regarding slings and startoss style) indicates that the if you have weapon training X, you can use this with any X weapon refers to weapons in X weapon group. Gaining the monk trait wont add spiked chains to the monk weapon group.

No, Ascetic Style says

Special: A 5th-level monk or character with the weapon training (monk) class feature can use Ascetic Style with any monk weapon, in addition to the chosen melee weapon.

You can use it with all monk weapons, not all "Fighter monk group weapons".

But Precise Strike is precision damage, so it doesn't get multiplied on critical hits, is negated by anything that negates a crit, and can't be used on blobs at all. Power Attack does way more damage than Precise Strike. It is a nice feature, but it is no Smite/Challenge. Sneak Attack is 75% better if you can get to a flanking position to use it.

Ascalaphus wrote:
Bladed Brush specifically mentions working with Precise Strike, so I don't think there's any worry about that part.

I agree, but weirdly there's big threads with lots of people arguing that it somehow doesn't actually work here on this forum.

Just to play the Devil's Advocate, I would remind you that the best Swashbuckler's features are the ones you get at level 1, and they don't actually require you to jump through any weapon-specific hoops to use. If your GM gives you any grief about bladed brush you can just throw your hands up, say whatever, and just take a single level of swashbuckler and go strength primary (dex 2nd) polearms with power attack for better damage than precise strike would ever offer. Since your friends are going heavy meatwall you could go glass cannony. Then from level 2 on you could just be going something else Charisma-based for your facing, like Bloodrager or Ninja.

"You WERE going to be a great swashbuckled adventurer, but life beat you down and you wound up furiously beating people with long sticks/turning to a life of crime and ninja tricks."

lemeres wrote:
Elemental annihilators are better kineticists for plain damage

This is a liiiiiieeeeeeeee :P

But yes, level 6 is better for the Kineticist since they get +2 to stats then. Also at 5 they can gather power to empower their blasts without taking burn so this:

Ectar wrote:
+7 touch 3d6+8, plus 1d6 burning damage over time.

Would actually be 4d6+8 damage. At level 7 their version of a full attack, empowered simple blast, jumps to 6d6 base damage.

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I have been toying with the idea of a monk taking one level of Empyreal bloodline sorcerer (uses Wisdom as casting stat) so you can cast Mage Armor and Shield on yourself at will (or maybe Ki Arrow), and use all the wizard spell wands yourself without putting any points in UMD. With a high enough Wis you'd be able to cast 4 or 5 spells per day, and if you took Magical Knack your Armor would be lasting 3 hours and Shield 3 minutes. You'd be totally self sufficient in having a giant AC boost.

Also a monk with Prestidigitation and Mage Hand. Maaaage Haaand!

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Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Bill Dunn wrote:
... does anyone really think this is likely to be much of a problem?
That does actually sound like something a rogue would do....

What? No it doesn't, it sounds like something idiotic a horrible jerk would do. That is not a problem with game rules, it is a sign that someone needs to be ejected from the game and told to never come back. If you are convinced the people you play with would be trying to turn suicide into an exploit, you need to find a new group.

So I like the idea of the Elemental Annihilator, but hate the actual implementation. Especially because it seems almost usable but then on closer look is horrible for no reason. The bow DPR thread also made me think that Zen Archer does everything the EA is supposed to do, except better and with 25 more average damage, to say nothing of the big DPR classes.

And so:
Devastating Infusion (Su)

At 1st level, an elemental annihilator can either shoot her kinetic blast at a target within range or make a melee attack as if she were using kinetic blade as an attack action. For this attack, the elemental annihilator's base attack bonus from her kineticist levels is equal to her full kineticist level. When making a melee attack with devastating infusion, the elemental annihilator doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. The damage bonus from elemental overflow is halved when added to devastating infusion's damage rolls. This is a 1st-level form infusion that costs 0 points of burn but can be combined with one other form infusion by increasing the cost by 1 burn.

A devastating infusion deals an amount of damage equal to the unarmed damage of a medium sized monk of the same level as the Annihilator + the Annihilator's Constitution modifier if used with a physical blast, and equal to the unarmed damage of a small sized monk of the same level + half her Constitution modifier if used with an energy blast. If used with a composite blast the base damage increases to the unarmed damage of a monk one size larger. An annihilator only adds damage from weapon feats if using devastating infusion in the proper weapon form.

This infusion can be combined with infusions that deal multiplied damage (e.g. 1/2 or 1/4 damage) but not with infusions that change your base damage (flurry of blasts).

This ability replaces the basic utility wild talent normally granted by selecting an element and the utility talents gained at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th levels.

Flurry of Devastation (Su)

At 3rd level an elemental annihilator can make a full attack action that functions as an equal level Monk's Flurry of Blows (your choice of core or unchained) except it only works when using Devastating Infusion. This flurry cannot be used with Rapid Shot or Two Weapon Fighting, but Haste grants an extra attack and the annihilator can freely combine ranged and melee attacks.

If you combine your flurry with an infusion that requires a saving throw, a target attempts its save and is affected only once (even if it was hit multiple times), but it takes a penalty on the save equal to the number of times it was hit beyond the first. (For example if using Foe Throw and you hit an enemy three times, that enemy takes a -2 penalty to their fortitude save and is thrown only once if they fail, taking damage equal to you hitting them three times. Likewise if hit by multiple Eruptions they would make one saving throw versus the total damage.)

This replaces the 3rd-level infusion.

Martial Blast Versatility (Ex)

At level 1 an elemental annihilator gains Point Blank Shot as a bonus feat. When an elemental annihilator gains a utility talent (at levels 2, 6, 10, 14, and 18) she can choose to gain a bonus feat instead of a talent from the following list: Power Attack, Deadly Aim, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus, and Weapon Finesse.
At sixth level she can also select Weapon Specialization and Improved Precise Shot.
At tenth level she can also select from Greater Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, and Two Weapon Rend.
An elemental annihilator doesn't need to meet the prerequisites for these feats to select them as bonus feats.

Ever-Present Threat (Su)

At 4th level, an elemental annihilator threatens all foes within her natural reach. If anyone provokes an attack of opportunity from her, she can form her melee devastating infusion and make the attack, after which the weapon disappears.

Penetrating Blast (Ex)

At 11th level an elemental annihilator gains +2 to her attack rolls when targeting an enemy's normal AC and +2 to her Caster Level Checks to overcome an enemy's spell resistance when using her kinetic blast.

This replaces the 11th-level infusion.

Omnicide (Su) is unchanged.

The ideas are being that instead of trading out all your class features and pursing giant feat chains to gain 10 dpr, you trade out half your class features to flurry damage at people. You can also just take extra range if you want to, instead of being forced. And you can be a goon by combining devastating infusion with your choice of other infusions at the "low" cost of 1 extra burn, to do things like spray tiny damage Entangling Clouds all over, or Snake your attack around corners. Of course the trade off is you might eat lots of burn because you're using a full attack and can't gather power.

Using Monk flurry means you can skip most of the stupid feat chains and actually be a switch hitter, unlike the current EA which sucks at switch hitting because of feat chains. Now the specialization mostly consists of picking Power Attack and Rend or Deadly Aim and Precise Shot. Or neither and taking your remaining five Utility Talents.

Blast Training was also a dumb waste of space because they took away Elemental Overlord damage, and then gave half of it back. Using unchained monk flurry and getting the Penetrating Blast gives you back the same amount of attack bonus and a tiny boost to stupid SR checks.

Technically you could use Flurry of Devastation with Chain to poke an extra person with each hit, but not until you're level 16 and do 2d6 damage with energy blasts.

And now you can be a Fire Annihilator.

DVenn wrote:
Ah, darn that's sad that I can't get fast healing/regen..atleast passively without having to activate it.

You could take the Spelleater archetype? --bloodrager-archetypes/spelleater

1 fast healing while raging at level 2 in place of uncanny dodge, then you trade your DR for increases to your healing instead. At mid levels its better than DR unless you're getting hit 3+ times per round, which would likely mean you're in trouble anyways and probably need more Blur.

What is the cape that gives perma-blur again? Maybe see if you can use the combined item rules to buy that combined with a cloak of resistance at higher levels.

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HWalsh wrote:
Robin Hood WASN'T Chaotic. Not by PF's standards. He was Neutral to Lawful.

An outlaw that goes around robbing people is Lawful. This is a good example of how alignment is meaningless as a descriptor. Anyone can be argued to be anything.

Weirdo wrote:
For another example, let's say that we want to make an organization called "Way of the North Star."

They would have a militant order of paladins that travel the roads protecting innocent travelers. Such a paladin would be known as a...

Fist of the North Star

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