The Shaman |
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Hi, I am pondering a character concept - a surprisingly dangerous courtier using fighting fans as weapons (possibly somehow disguised as regular fans). I am not sure how best to make it happen, though, so I am looking for ideas. My overall idea is to make him/her a dex-heavy mobile fighter who does not need heavy armor and has little to no magic.
My first idea was making a brawler, using traits and a bit of intelligence to make him/her a capable courtier, and making the most out of maneuver training and the extra damage for close weapons (alternatively, using snakebite striker for the sneak attack and feint).The idea of making a noble brawler and making use of the fighting fan proficiency just appealed to me. The monk is also proficient, but the base weapon damage is a bit low. However, other classes like the vigilante (lethal grace), slayer (studied strike + sneak attack) or unchained rogue (sneak attack + finesse training + debilitating injury) also sound like a good base, though I may have to get fan proficiency in other methods. What do you think? How would you make a fan fighter?
Johnnycat93 |
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1d4 light weapon means you're going to need to figure out a means of doing damage outside of the normal methods. If it were me, I'd run a Kensai Magus and blast folks with spellstrike/spell combat. If you want to focus on non-magic, life will be harder but a Fighter with the Brawler archetype is definitely worth consideration for Close Combatant and Menacing Stance (especially if your GM is reasonable and let's you use Close Combatant as Weapon Training for picking up AWT).
Chess Pwn |
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They are basically punching daggers that use a feat to use.
Being light weapons STR based isn't as nice since you can't two hand. So it makes a good candidate for TWF or using a shield.
if not using heavy armor it makes going dex based more enticing to keep AC up there.
But there's nothing special about fan fighting, it's just a light weapon.
Brew Bird |
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Flavor-wise, the fighting fan is described as being used to distract opponents with a two-weapon style. Maybe you want a feint-focused brawler? The brawler has the advantage of a flurry that works like two-weapon fighting, automatic proficiency with the fighting fan, close weapon mastery to boost your damage dice, and a good bunch of feats for whatever build you need.
If you want more of a roguish flavor, maybe consider the Snakebite striker to pick up sneak attack and some feinting abilities.
GeneticDrift |
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Fighters work great with unusual weapons. Check the weapon master's handbook. The weapon master archetype is also good.
If casting is OK, war priest seems solid.
Johnnycat93 |
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Not very, honestly.
Fighter is competitive with Brawler, but only if your GM allows you to access Advanced Weapon Training, otherwise pass.
Vigilante is always good, though, for versatility if nothing else.
I think a Brawler is probably good for you though. Take Butterfly Sting and ask your GM if you can use the custom weapon creation rules to get an exotic light melee weapon in the close weapon group with an 18-20 crit range. Play human and get the alternate trait that gives you two free exotic weapon proficiency, then TWF and crit-fish using Butterfly Sting and deliver using the x3 Fighting Fan. Also remember Piranha Strike. If you do this, I wouldn't go for sneak attack damage because it doesn't stack.
Also seconding Path of War. Path of War makes things work.
Chromantic Durgon <3 |
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Feinting is hard to pull off, I made a vexing daredevil mesmerist which used it. A human could take weapon focus and weapon finesse at first level and fencing grace at 3 or two weapon fighting at 3. Manifold stare would allow painful stare damage too multiple attacks. But you'd never get that many so I'm not sure if two weapon fighting would be worth it. You could keep the hand free for casting. Take piranha strike at 5 deadly stare at 7 and manifold stare at 9 that would allow decent damage and you could do some kewl things with your spells too.
Either way the build doesn't really work till 3.
I'd be interested in suggestions for this sort of character as well honestly.
EDIT: proficiency from heirloom weapon.
pH unbalanced |
I have a Lotus Geisha Bard who uses them, but that barely counts -- if she has to engage in combat, we're already in deep trouble.
They give a bonus to feinting and have poor base damage, so there's no reason to specialize in them unless you are planning on a feint/sneak attack build. That probably means Unchained Rogue or Ninja, although you've already spied out the Snakebite Striker, which also works.
I would probably take my first level in Snakebite Striker, then 3 levels of Unchained Rogue, then 2 more of Snakebite Striker. Then specialize in whichever of the two classes you prefer. Your big trick with this build is that once you get to Improved Feint you can feint for free in conjunction with a move, so I would look for things that keep you mobile -- so maybe Disengaging Feint or other feats that proc conditions with a feint.
The Shaman |
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Okay, for a brawler, how does that sound?
traits: monk weapon training (war fan), extremely fashionable (diplomacy as a class skill/princess
class: Brawler/Snakebite Striker
Skills taken: acrobatics, bluff, sense motive, diplomacy, perception, a bit of knowledges,stealth,etc.
Feats:
1. Weapon finesse
(Bonus from human): weapon focus (War fan)
2. combat expertise
3. Piranha strike
5. Improved feint
7. outslug style
8. feinting flurry
9. greater feint
11. Outslug weave
How does that sound? Do I focus too much on feinting and is there a point taking a feat or trait for a bonus to bluff checks?
With a vigilante, I would probably use vigilante talents instead of some of the feats, such as lethal grace (free weapon finesse and damage),cunning feint (feinting as 1st attack in a full attack), shield of blades, etc. The final result should not be much different.
The Shaman |
Slashing grace does not work if I use brawler's flurry, otherwise I would be taking it asap. As I was mostly focusing on feints,dirty fighting was not such a priority (especially if I use a snakebite striker and don't get training with other maneuvers), but yeah, it could come in handy.
I could see slashing grace working if I make the build with, say, a swashbuckler or a daring champion.
avr |
Combat Expertise not Dirty Fighting is required for Improved Feint, ignore Johnnycat.
It's not bad but have a plan for when you can't effectively feint but can sneak attack - if you're not in PFS that probably means arranging for someone to flank with you, or for someone to summon flanking partners, that sort of thing.
Probably a majority of your enemies will be of a different type (-4 feint) and have no sense motive (so defence of 10 + BAB + Wis). Assuming their BAB ~ your level, Cha 14 for you, Wis 14 for them, class skill, the fashionable trait, and the distracting property on the fans that cancels out to a ~65% chance of success on the feint. If that isn't enough for you invest more resources.
Edit: the cbt expertise/dirty fighting bit comes from feint not being a combat maneuver.
Special: This feat counts as having Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, and Improved Unarmed Strike for the purposes of meeting the prerequisites of the various improved combat maneuver feats, as well as feats that require those improved combat maneuver feats as prerequisites.
Dragonchess Player |
You may want to consider the velvet blade slayer archetype; either by itself or in combination with snakebite striker brawler. Extra/early combat style feats can help; slayer also gets more skills.
Friendly Neighborhood Glabrezu |
I'm partial to unchained monk with ascetic style for this type of build. You can gain the monk unarmed strike damage progression, and eventually do things like flying kicks (lunging strikes) with your fans.
Possibly take a 2 level dip into ninja to pick up poison use and Vanishing Trick for some spy tricks, if that appeals.
The Shaman |
Velvet blade is good overall, but the removal of the extra damage and attack on the studied strike turn me off. Without them, I'm not sure I will have enough reliable damage as a slayer with such small weapons.
Outslug weave... well, I was mistaking it for outweave sprint. So yeah, in that case it might be an issue, and I missed it requiring sprint. Wait, didn't Outslug Style use to give bonuses to attack and AC?
I had not seriously considered unchained monk, but it might be workable. Still, I would have to go a few feats into ascetic style to use fans with significant damage. I will be more mobile, sure enough, but I still worry about not being about my offense being a bit on the weak side. I would probably have to forget about sneak attack.
Chromantic Durgon <3 |
I would suggest like I did early take either slashing grace at 2 or combat expertise into improved feint at 3.
Getting them flat footed as a move action and thus getting sneak attack or getting Dex to damage will provide more damage than piranha strike. Then take the option you missed.
Feinting flurry and skill focus bluff are both good ideas. grabbung greater feint when you can. Pick up piranha strike when you can.
At which point I think your build opens up a lot. A level dip into alchemist for mutagens to Dex and reduce person is one option to consider.
Steadfast mind is a worthy feat if you have Cha. Depending on the point buy you may be able to reach 16 or 15 Cha increasing to 16 at 4.
Also I think there is a ranged feinting feint somewhere which might be worth looking into but I don't know what it is called.
Chromantic Durgon <3 |
Sneak Attack isn't all that great anyways. I think Unchained Monk would be a pretty good idea (especially depending on how lenient your GM may be with archetype compatibility with vanilla monk).
It's quite a lot stronger if you can move up, feint as a move action thus providing you a flat footed opponent for your attacks and thus allowing sneak attack to unflanked targets that you didn't need to surprise.
And even more so with feinting flurry. Then you can get sneak attack to every attack in the flurry without requiring a flanking buddy.
EDIT: I'm not familiar with unmonk where does their damage come from?
nennafir |
Hi,
I made an unarmed fighter 1/ mouser 1/ vexing daredevil xxx halfling build that used crane style and a fighting fan.
I think it was a pretty good build. When I created the build, I put way too many points toward charisma. If I had to do it again, I would instead max dex first and then get middling cha and con. Having played a mesmerist, I now think charisma is something of a trap option, and one should focus on the combat stuff instead. Doubtless people will disagree with me, but I think they just don't pull enough weight to be a full caster.
The only benefit of a fighting fan is the distracting quality, so you might as well do a feint build. Vexing daredevils do feint better than almost anyone else.
The Shaman |
Normally, I would say either many extra attacks with ki expenditure, medusa's wrath, etc, or being able to use a two-handed weapon with power attack and flurry. The ascetic style line does eventually let them treat a monk weapon's damage as that of their unarmed strike (with a few levels less), but some of their damage-adding abilities don't work with weapons imo.
Chromantic Durgon <3 |
Hi,
I made an unarmed fighter 1/ mouser 1/ vexing daredevil xxx halfling build that used crane style and a fighting fan.
I think it was a pretty good build. When I created the build, I put way too many points toward charisma. If I had to do it again, I would instead max dex first and then get middling cha and con. Having played a mesmerist, I now think charisma is something of a trap option, and one should focus on the combat stuff instead. Doubtless people will disagree with me, but I think they just don't pull enough weight to be a full caster.
The only benefit of a fighting fan is the distracting quality, so you might as well do a feint build. Vexing daredevils do feint better than almost anyone else.
I tend to agree with you, I have a swashbuckler 1/vexing daredevil x, you can have middling CHA (mine is 18 with a headband at 6) and still have pretty competitive DCs because the stare basically equates to a +4 to CHA so your spells still land. But you don't have enough of them for them to be your main focus in my opinion. Maybe if you started at level 10 it wouldn't be a problem, but at level 3 it definitely is.
xDemoquinx |
Human Brawler 2-3/ Ninja 9-10
Stats: 10, 16(+2), 12, 10, 11, 15 (Could add a +2 here if a feat not needed)
BAB +9
Feats : IUS (free), WF Fan, Slashing Grace, Expertise, Feinting Flurry,
Imp Feinting Flurry, __________, ______________
4 Ninja Tricks : Vanishing, Pressure Points, Bleeding Attack (5), Offensive Defensive
Traits: ____________, ___________
Specials: Martial Flexibility 4/day, +5d6 SA, Poison Use, No Trace +2, Uncanny dodge, Ki Pool 7-8, Light Steps
Scott Wilhelm |
I was just looking at Tieflings again recently, maybe combining Panther, Snake and Ascetic styles, taking Moonlight Stalker and Nightmare Fist activated by the Tiefling's Darkness ability.
So, I was kind of thinking kind of along those lines, but with Fighting Fans, the +2 bonus to Feinting would be a nice bit of icing on the cake. Moonlight Stalker Feint lets you Feint as a Swift Action.
This thread has already hit on my main idea about Fighting Fans: take advantage of Distracting to Feint to lock in your Sneak Attack Damage.
Another obvious way to go with Fighting Fans would be Warpriest, substituting the Fighting Fan damage for Sacred Weapon Damage.
Those feats I mentioned: Moonlight Stalker and Nightmare Fist give flat bonuses regardless of the weapon you use. So, I guess we can add Piranha strike and Risky Striker if we are thinking of a Halfling Fan Fighter. But those would work for any weapon: good Feats, but not showcase Feats.
The Mask of the Stony Demeanor seems a must-have.
Devilkiller |
I haven’t taken Rogue levels with a PC in a long time and can’t recall the last time I played a single classed Rogue (though I multi-class a lot). I think the Unchained Rogue could be interesting since you get free Weapon Finesse and Dex to damage with your chosen weapon. I think 4 levels or even more would be worthwhile.
The Thug archetype could be interesting. The idea of using Dazzling Display to show off with your fans and make the mooks go running seems fun to me. Maybe you’d throw something up into the air, whip out your fans, and cut the object into small pieces before it lands (apple, silk cloth with a symbol of some sort on it, etc). Being able to sicken your foes on top of them being shaken could help your defenses.
If you’re willing to multiclass a bit the Order of the Cockatrice Cavalier gets Dazzling Display for free at 2nd level, can use it as a standard action, and gets a +2 to hit shaken foes. Combined with Befuddling Strike this could get you a +6 to hit the same foe again by the time you’re 6th level. I guess You could also think about Shatter Defenses for later on.
If you’re interested in having a trusty mount (some courtiers might be) you’d only have to collect 4 levels of Cavalier to take Horse Master and have a full power mount (some more interesting ones are available if you’re Small). Maybe I’m just thinking of Rimururu from the old Samurai Shodown games and her pet wolf, but it could give you a flanking buddy who might even trip somebody once in awhile.
Chromantic Durgon <3 |
The devoted muse does look good, I think I'd go 6 snakebite brawler/devoted muse x
Can't quite grasp what this ability is supposed to do though.
Masterful Strike: At 10th level, the devoted muse can feint against one creature within her reach as a free action after resolving the attack. If she performs an artistic flourish with this feint against a distracted target, the target’s miss chance against the devoted muse increases by an amount equal to 5 × her weapon’s critical multiplier.
Chromantic Durgon <3 |
Artisitic flurries are other bonuses one can apply instead of flat footed through a feint.
I've worked out what that one does now. If you attack you get a free action to feint and then if you apply distracted, or did so in a previous round and apply one of the other artistic flurries, such as confuse then the miss chance distracted provides (20% for the whole party against that opponent) goes up by the stated amount.
I think the idea would be, move action feint, attack get sneak attack dice (from brawler archetype in my builds case) free action feint apply distracted gain 35% displacement effect for you and 20 for the rest of the party.
Or feint with feinting flurry, gain sneak attack to all damage rolls and then do the free feint.
Chromantic Durgon <3 |
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You would be self sufficient in terms of sneak attack by level 5 and if you had a flanking buddy then at level 8 you could be doing 1D4+3D6+Dex+2(enhancement)+4(piranha strike) and giving all your allies blur against your target.
Assuming you have 18Dex to start +2 from levelling +2 from belt that means a
+17to hit averaging 25 damage. +blur.
Without a flanking buddy you have to choose between the sneak attack (2D6) or the flourish stuff (1D6+blur).
Also an argument can be made for slashing grace applying in a flurry since the flurry provides full strength bonus and slashing grace explicitly says it swaps strength for Dex. I'd allow it as a DM and so would my DM when I asked him.
Ferious Thune |
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Lots of interesting options in this thread. I played a fighting fan wielding ninja to level 12 in PFS. Some newer, better options have come out since, but for informational purposes, here is my build. I had one advantage in that I got proficiency through a Lantern Lodge trait that isn't accessible anymore. Unchained Rogue could clear up a feat from not needing to take Weapon Finesse. And without a ki pool you wouldn't need to keep Combat Trick open for use with Forgotten Trick.
STR: 10
DEX: 25 (bumped with 4th level boost, 12th level boost, plus Way of the Kirin boon, plus +4 Belt)
CON: 14 (+2 Ioun Stone)
INT: 14 (Needed a 13 for Combat Expertise, bumped it with 8th level boost)
WIS: 10
CHA 16 (+2 Headband)
HP: 99
AC: 23 (+6 Dex, +6 Armor, +1 Deflection) Boosts to 27 with Shield, 32 with Offensive Defense
Init: +10 (+6 Dex, +2 Reactionary, +2 Master boon)
Fort: +10 Ref: +20 Will: 10
Attacks:
Fighting Fan +19/+14 (1d4+8, x3) or
Two Fighting Fans +17/+17/+12/+12 (1d4+8/1d4+1, x3) or
Two Fighting Fans w/Feint -/+17/+12/+12(1d4+8+6d6, 1d4+1+6d6, x3)
Traits: Reactionary, Weapon Style (Fighting Fan) *This was a Lantern Lodge Trait to get proficiency
Feats: 1) Combat Expertise, 1H) Two-Weapon Fighting, 2B) Weapon Finesse, 3) Improved Feint, 5) Two-Weapon Feint, 7) Improved Two-Weapon Fighting*, 9) Greater Feint, 11) Iron Will, 12B) Twist Away
* Requires retraining at 8th level. I also retrained level 3 feat to Improved Feint and Improved Two-Weapon Feint to Greater Feint when Greater Feint got the FAQ to make the target flat-footed against everyone and not just you. I think I just had Dodge at level 3 before.
Ninja Tricks: 2) Finesse Rogue, 4) Weapon Training (Fighting Fan), 6) Offensive Defense, 8) Forgotten Trick, 10) Evasion, 12) Feat: Twist Away
Boons: +1 to Dex from Way of the Kirin, Master Vanity (+2 Init) from Lantern Lodge
Equipment of Note:
Fighting Fan +1 Agile
Adamantine Fighting Fan +1 Menacing (Mostly used to Feint and for an Iterative, but makes Flanking a +4)
Mithral Chain Shirt +2
Ring of Protection +1
Cloak of Resistance +5
Belt of Incredible Dexterity +4
Pink Rhomboid Ioun Stone (+2 Con)
Headband of Alluring Charisma +2
Cracked Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone (+1 competence to attacks)
Ring of Ki Mastery
Sandals of Quick Reaction
Cracked Vibrant Purple Prism (Spell Storing 1 level)
Wand of Shield
Wand of CLW
Mask of Stony Demeanor (price went way up on this since I bought it)
Saves are definitely a weakness of the ninja.
So a typical round goes feint with primary attack at +25 Bluff, attack with primary off-hand, attack with iterative main hand, attack with iterative off-hand, spend a ki for an additional attack if necessary. Sometimes I alternate which fan is primary or secondary to maximize the agile bonus, but again, an unchained rogue would not have that problem. Even with penalties from non-humanoids or low intelligence, the feint works the majority of the time. So it becomes 3 attacks (4 with ki, 5 with haste) at +17/+12/+12/+17 (or +18 w/haste, +20 w/heroism) against flat footed AC.
If I have a flank, haste, and spend a ki, then I have 4 attacks at +22 and 2 at +17. If all six hit, it's an average of 185 damage.
If it's a dungeon crawl, I'll often UMD a scroll of Heroism, putting to-hit at +24 primary and +19 iterative when flanking. Those numbers are usually sufficient to hit on a majority of attacks.
Forgotten Trick: Combat Trick: Dedicated Adversary can net an extra +2 to-hit/+2 dmg, if someone in the party can identify the creature. Though that feat did not exist for any of my first 11 levels.
It took a lot of work and help from the boards to get the character even this effective. Ninjas have a rough time of it compared to other martial classes. But more important than the raw numbers, the character is a blast to play and has plenty of flavor and style. I've seen a couple of GMs do a double take when I step up with fighting fans and deal 130+ damage, and that was happening starting around level 9, when Improved Two-Weapon Feint came online.
I was reliably getting 1 sneak attack per round starting at level 3.
You could easily do this build, minus the ki attack and forgotten trick, as an Unchained Rogue. If you're worried about the proficiency, go half-elf or just take it at 2nd level with Combat Trick. You also don't really need Two-Weapon Feint until you are ready to take Greater Feint, because you're only going to get denied dex against one attack anyway. So you could take Improved Feint at 3rd and just forgo two-weapon fighting on the rounds when you feint. Take Two-weapon Feint at 7th, and if you can hold onto your combat trick, take Greater Feint at 8th and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting at 9th.
Ferious Thune |
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EDIT: Oh, I just noticed upthread someone mentioned there's now a widely available trait for proficiency in a monk weapon. So I've adjusted the sequence below for a human.
Unchained Rogue would look something like this:
1) Combat Expertise
1H) Improved Feint
1B) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Fighting Fan
1B) Weapon Finesse
2) Rogue Talent: Weapon Training: Weapon Focus (Fighting Fan)
3) Two-Weapon Fighting, Dex to Damage with Fighting Fan
5) Skill Focus(Bluff)
7) Two-Weapon Feint
8) Combat Trick: Greater Feint
9) Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
10 Feat: Twist Away
11) Iron Will
You could take Piranha Strike at 5th. It's not quite as desirable as power attack, though, because it never grants -1/+3. You won't be two-handing anyway, and that -2 when you hit +4 BAB on top of -2 for eventually two-weapon fighting will probably hurt in the long run.
Chromantic Durgon <3 |
This is what I ended up coming up with, honestly I think I might play it myself at some point if I get the chance.
Class: Brawler (Snakebite Striker) 6/ Devoted Muse 10/ Brawler (Snakebite Striker) 4
Race: Human
Stats:
Str: 8
Dex: 18
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 16
Trait:
?
?
1) Weapon Finesse, Sneak Attack 1D6, Weapon Focus (Fighting Fan)
2) Bonus Combat Feat (Slashing Grace), Brawler’s Flurry (two weapon fighting)
3) Combat Expertise
4) +1 Dodge Bonus, Knockout 1/Day
5) Improved Feint, Close Weapon 1D6, Piranha Strike
6) Sneak Attack 2D6
7) Artful Defence (1), Deeds, Panache (3), Greater Feint
8) Artistic Flourish (distracted), Harmonious Strike (Circling Strike, Deadly Strike)
9) Feinting Flurry, Feinting Feat (Skill Focus Bluff)
10) Opportune Parry Riposte, +1 Panache
11) AF (Confused, Staggered), Quick Draw
12) Feinting feat (Wave Strike), HS (Inspirational Strike), Level 3 Deeds.
13) +1 Panache, Combat Reflexes, Level 3 Deeds
14) AF (Dazed)
15) Feinting feat (Disengaging Feint), feat (?)
16) +1 Panache, HS (Masterful Strike), Level 7 Deeds
17) Feat (?)
18) Close Weapon 1D8, Brawler’s Flurry (Improved Two Weapon Fighting), Bonus Combat Feat (?)
19) +1 (Dodge Bonus), Feat(?)
20) Sneak Attack 3D6 Knockout 2/Day
Got 4 empty feat slots, which could be filled with save bonuses feats and improved initiative but there might be something more fun one could do with those slots.
One thing of note is that I don't know if Artful Defense works with the dodge bonus from Brawler.
but even if it didn't with Celestial armor +2 Dex and +Cha from leveling and a belt and a headband you actually end up with pretty awesome AC.
10 +7 Armor, +7 dodge, +8 Dex, +5 Deflection, +5 Natural Armor, +1 Insight Bonus.
43 AC + Parry Riposte, not bad in combat defense.
Ferious Thune |
Sorry, which trait do you mean - Lantern Lodge is there another one that is still legal?
Apologies. I misread the trait. I saw your post earlier that mentioned Monk Weapon Training trait, which lead me to Monk Weapon Skill from the Weapon Master's Handbook, which I then misread as granting proficiency. What it actually does is grant a +1 to damage, which isn't terrible.
So that would put the Unchained Rogue build back to either being a half-elf, or to using some retraining at 2nd. You could get Improved Feint at 3rd, Two-Weapon Fighting at 5th, and probably lose Skill Focus from the build or push it to one of the late feats so you could stay on track for Greater Feint at 8th with Combat Trick.
A brawler dip isn't a bad idea as others have mentioned. Especially here, due to Brawler's Cunning. Brawler is a strong dip on a lot of classes. You could either go Snakebite Striker like you did above, which would put your Sneak Attack 1d6 ahead at even levels, or standard Brawler, which would put SA 1d6 behind at odd levels. You would have Martial Flexibility, though, which is really, really good, and lets you do something similar to what I did with Forgotten Trick: Combat Trick on my ninja. If you're Human, then you could get Improved Feint at level 1. If not, then you could use Martial Flexibility to pick Improved Feint or Two-Weapon Fighting up starting at level 1. Later, use it for Dedicated Adversary, or whatever is appropriate.
An Unchained Monk dip gets you proficiency and a better flurry and with only a 1 level dip. It's a shame Combat Expertise or something else you need isn't on the Monk bonus feat list. This would relegate you to not wearing armor, though, which is a big deal, and would make you more MAD as boosting Wisdom would be necessary for more than saves.