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Also, it's worth noting that the Twin Grace feat exists in the Villain Codex. It requires even more feats (Slashing Grace, then Twin Grace, then possibly Double Slice?), but it does open up Dex to Damage while wielding two weapons to classes other than Unchained Rogue. I'm not sure if you're looking for something PFS legal or not. The Villain Codex hasn't made it into Additional Resources yet, so it remains to be seen whether or not that feat will be legal.
The Brawlers flurry allows strength bonus to attacks with offhand weapons I believe. So if you can convince your DM that Slashing Grace would allow dex to damage with a flurry (which I believe is reasonable) then you would get dex to damage on attacks with your offhand fan as well.
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The errata'd version of Slashing Grace is pretty clear:
You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied.
Brawler's Flurry is technically a different ability than Flurry of Blows, but I don't think in this instance it would be treated that differently. Especially given all the discussion and clarification around Slashing Grace, Spell Combat, etc.
Sure, if the GM allows it or doesn't like the errata. But the rule is pretty clear and I don't think basing a build around something that is clearly not legal is a good idea. As written, while flurrying, Slashing Grace doesn't work at all. But like I mentioned, there's a new feat that does work with two-weapon fighting. I don't actually have the book yet or the full wording, so I don't know if that feat opens up Dex to damage with flurry or not.
I like the Brawler build you posted above, and the prestige class is different. None of the Brawler, the prestige class, nor slashing grace were options when I was playing my ninja. I posted that mainly as an example of a build that's actually been used for an extended period of time, as there were definitely lessons learned for me by doing so.
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That's a shame, the build does have room for twin grace but I can't find a source online to read what it does.
EDIT: found it what an annoying nerf that feat is xD
First of all it has two weapon fighting as a pre, req which would mean taking two weapon fighting completely pointlessly and then it infers a -2 to hit on top of two weapon fighting making the hitting with your iterative attacks extremely unlikely to hit.
I suppose with feinting flurry or wave strike the flat footed will allow you to hit more reliably but I really think it's a shame flurry doesn't allow you to qualify
EDIT: this is an updated build it basically required pushing Piranha strike back. And ignoring the fact that flurry doesn't qualify you for two weapon grace because it makes using two weapon grace on monks a brawlers that use Dex super f+~+ing awkward. Might even be worth seeing if we could FAQ it or something because I doubt they intended that monks/brawlers had to take two weapon fighting pointlessly to get half Dex to damage in a flurry.
Class: Brawler (Snakebite Striker) 6/ Devoted Muse 10/ Brawler (Snakebite Striker) 4
Race: Human
Str: 8
Dex: 18
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 16
Trait: Monk weapon training, reactionary
1) Weapon Finesse, Sneak Attack 1D6, Weapon Focus (Fighting Fan)
2) Bonus Combat Feat (Slashing Grace), Brawler’s Flurry (two weapon fighting)
3) Combat Expertise
4) +1 Dodge Bonus, Knockout 1/Day
5) Improved Feint, Close Weapon 1D6, Two weapon grace
6) Sneak Attack 2D6
7) Artful Defence (1), Deeds, Panache (3), Piranha strike
8) Artistic Flourish (distracted), Harmonious Strike (Circling Strike, Deadly Strike)
9) Feinting Flurry, Feinting Feat (Greater feint)
10) Opportune Parry Riposte, +1 Panache
11) AF (Confused, Staggered), Quick Draw
12) Feinting feat (Wave Strike), HS (Inspirational Strike), Level 3 Deeds.
13) +1 Panache, Combat Reflexes
14) AF (Dazed)
15) Feinting feat (Skill focus bluff), Dazzling Display
16) +1 Panache, HS (Masterful Strike)
17) Feat (?)
18) Close Weapon 1D8, Brawler’s Flurry (Improved Two Weapon Fighting), Bonus Combat Feat (?)
19) +1 (Dodge Bonus), Feat(?)
20) Sneak Attack 3D6 Knockout 2/Days
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Keep in mind that Accomplished Sneak Attacker is a thing now, so if you want to boost sneak attack earlier, and you have room for the feat, you can take that. It's arguably better than piranha strike for a feint build, as it's an extra 3.5 average damage with no hit penalty (but limited to when you get sneak attack).
What a silly errata--in a flurry of blows, it is entirely possible to attack with a single weapon, so the other hand *isn't* occupied.
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Doesn't Brawler's Flurry count as Two-Weapon Fighting for prerequisites? Or was that a playtest thing?
EDIT: Yeah, I'm pretty sure Brawler can take feats that require TWF as a prerequisite. He can only use those feats while flurrying, but that's the only time you would need them. That's why Brawler's Flurry actually gives the TWF feat while flurrying, unlike Monk.
What a silly errata--in a flurry of blows, it is entirely possible to attack with a single weapon, so the other hand *isn't* occupied.
See this is another thing GAH ANNOYING there is no way they want Dex based monks to take two weapon fighting in order to flurry with Dex to damage it's just intensely stupid for one thing.
Accomplished sneak attacker would be a good replacement for piranha strike and then take piranha strike at 17 where the gap is.
Then starting combat she would move up, feint within the move action and Piranha strike on the single attack for
+28 to hit 1D8+4D6+26 (average damage 44 and the opponent is flat footed for your whole party)
Or if she starts with them in front of her she can feint with the first attack of the flurry and then
31,26,26,21,16 to hit 1D8+4D6+10 (average damage per hit 28 and the opponent is flat footed for your whole party)
If she has a flanking buddy then the feint can apply an artful flourish and a Harmonious strike single target
+30 to hit 1D8+9D6+26 (5D6 deadly strike) (average damage 62 and the opponent is flat footed for your whole party, plus whatever artful flourish you apply)
Or if she starts infront of the target
33,31,31,26,21 to hit 1D8+4D6+13 (inspirational strike) (average damage 31 and the opponent is flat footed for your whole party, your whole party also gains a 3/3 to attack and damage, plus whatever artful flourish you apply)
If you are lucky enough to start combat infront of your enemy you can wave strike for swift action feinting, in which case you get an additional attack with your highest to hit bonus in the flurry. Which is essentially a +28/31 to damage depending on if you have the flank buddy, but you probably don't in that circumstance.
You also need them to fail their save against artful flourish for the second set of attacks to work as intended which requires will to be their low save as your DC isn't likely to get past 25.
Doesn't Brawler's Flurry count as Two-Weapon Fighting for prerequisites? Or was that a playtest thing?
EDIT: Yeah, I'm pretty sure Brawler can take feats that require TWF as a prerequisite. He can only use those feats while flurrying, but that's the only time you would need them. That's why Brawler's Flurry actually gives the TWF feat while flurrying, unlike Monk.
Woot woot
Then the build is legal xD
The feat investments for the Rogue FT posted seem pretty painful. Using the Focused Study racial option for humans would give you Skill Focus (Bluff) at 1st level and another free Skill Focus feat at 8th level. If you went with Skill Focus (Sense Motive) in one of those slots maybe it could make sense to think about Snake Fang either early on via Master of Many Styles or at higher levels with a Brawler dip. This would give you an AoO with an unarmed strike whenever a foe misses you. I'm not sure if you could transform those into fighting fan AoOs somehow with another feat or class ability. If you’re incorporating sneak attack into your build even AoOs without Dex to damage could still inflict a lot of hurt though.
If you decide to make unarmed strikes part of your arsenal via Brawler or Monk levels then I can’t recommend the Enforcer feat highly enough. I guess that could also give you another decent option for a Skill Focus feat (Intimidate) though honestly you probably wouldn't need the boost much since the duration of the shaken condition for Enforcer is set by your damage, not your Intimidate check.
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I always forget about the Focused Study option. If you're taking Skill Focus (Bluff) eventually, and you're willing to wait until 4th or 5th level for Improved Feint to come online, then it's a good option. It adds some flexibility out of combat at the very least at higher levels.
For a PFS build, I tend to focus on getting the build's main tactics to come online as soon as possible. So with that as the goal, having the extra feat for proficiency early and getting to Improved Feint sooner would require the tradeoff of not getting the extra two Skill Focuses later. If you're in a campaign where you expect to move past 1st-4th levels quickly, then it becomes much less important.
Master of Many Styles no longer allows early access to Snake Fang. The earliest you can take Snake Fang is when you meet the prerequisites at 9th level (as it requires 9 ranks in Sense Motive), and you have to have all of combat Reflexes, Improved Unarmed Strike, Snake Style, and Snake Sidewind.
The Unchained rogue path does eat up pretty much all of your feats, but it's a straightforward build that doesn't require dipping. There are also a couple of open Rogue Talents that I didn't list (2nd or 4th level and 6th level). Improved Will and Twist Away aren't required for the build. They just help survivability immensely at higher levels, given the Rogue's terrible Fort and Will saves.
Unchained Rogue gets lots of good things that the Snakebite Brawler build doesn't. Dex to damage, with both hands, by default, no matter how many attacks or where they are coming from. Skill Unlocks. Debilitating Strike. Finesse at level 1. Faster Sneak Attack progression. Sneak Attacks against foes with partial concealment. Rogue Talents for out of combat or combat utility. Lots, and lots more skill points. Evasion/Improved Evasion. Uncanny Dodge/Improved Uncanny Dodge. Danger Sense. Trapfinding. It's not necessarily a better or more powerful build. Likely less powerful. It's still a Rogue. Brawler's still full-BAB, d10 HP, with Bonus Feats. But URogue's got some positives, depending on what you want out of the character. And it's a much simpler build once you have the feat order down.
Personally, I would consider a single level dip into non-archetyped Brawler, then the rest Unchained Rogue. Martial Flexibility is just that good that it seems a shame to trade it away for more Sneak Attack. You don't need Piranha Strike at all if you have Martial Flexibility, as you can either pick it up when you need it (fighting elementals or other things immune to precision damage), or you can just pick up Dedicated Adversary when you can identify the creature's type, which is anywhere from +3 to +6 better to-hit for a Rogue, with the static +2 damage.
A second level Brawler dip would net a bonus feat and Brawler's Flurry, if you don't want actual Two-Weapon Fighting.
I'm glad I was shown this thread. I made it up to 20th level in PFS with a fan-using character.
Just think simply, I'd say. Simply and practically. Drop your average damage by a whopping one, and you can carry your weapon everywhere, not present a threat to anyone, obey rules of etiquette, and never have to explain to your GM how you have a weapon strapped to your back while having dinner.
On top of not looking like a silly murderhobo.
-Matt
One of the nice things the snakebite brawler does is allow you to move and feint within the move action this is huge for allowing you to feint and engage and attack the opponent on round 1 either doing a nice big attack with sneak attack or using the stuff from Devoted muse. With the bonus feats it's also possible to have Dex to damage at 2nd level, one level earlier than the rogue and with brawlers flurry counting as two weapon fighting you can get half Dex to damage in a flurry. Plus you can flurry so no need to spend feats on two weapon fighting and I think even with the negative from two weapon grace you do still have a very slightly more accurate two weapon fighting attack chain. And for what's it's worth the fan ends up a 1D8 weapon with my build lol. Not that that means much.
I'll be honest though the main reason I choose to ignore the rogue stuff is because I'm super unfamiliar with the class and don't want to read rogue talents and debilitating injury and advanced talent and all those things do I can't be bothered to make that many choices xD
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@Chromantic Durgon - Like I said, I like the build you've presented. For a 1 level dip like I'm talking about, I think standard Brawler makes more sense. You don't get the ability to feint as part of a move until 3rd, so that makes it less beneficial to a build that's primarily URogue. In that situation, I think Martial Flexibility it more useful.
@Mattastrophic - I'm glad you made it here, too. Your advice is a large part of what made the character I have start working at higher levels.
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EDIT: Oh, I just noticed upthread someone mentioned there's now a widely available trait for proficiency in a monk weapon. So I've adjusted the sequence below for a human.
Unchained Rogue would look something like this:
** spoiler omitted **
You could take Piranha Strike at 5th. It's not quite as desirable as power attack, though, because it never grants -1/+3. You won't be two-handing anyway, and that -2 when you hit +4 BAB on top of -2 for eventually two-weapon fighting will probably hurt in the long run.
I did something similar, except I did Unchained Rogue 3/Slayer X. Focused on Greater Two Weapon Feinting, because of the fighting fans bonuses to feint.
At level 17, with a BAB of 16, and all of the feats. Your full round can look like 1 Feint Check (if successful, all following attacks that round are against the targets flat foot [yay sneak]), 3 main hand attacks, 3 off hand attacks, a rend and possible a haste attack. Don't forget the swift action activation of study target.
Most things haven't lived past one round with this character. Still does great damage with dex to damage and piranha strike thrown in there even if you can't get sneak attack off.
@Chromantic Durgon - Like I said, I like the build you've presented. For a 1 level dip like I'm talking about, I think standard Brawler makes more sense. You don't get the ability to feint as part of a move until 3rd, so that makes it less beneficial to a build that's primarily URogue. In that situation, I think Martial Flexibility it more useful.
@Mattastrophic - I'm glad you made it here, too. Your advice is a large part of what made the character I have start working at higher levels.
Oh I know :) I'm not trying to convince you so much as explain my lack input in the rogue discussion, which boils down to laziness really.
I think the rogue will eventually equate to a slightly less accurate potentially more deadly character, with less versatility so far as buffing his party and action economy, but more through skills and with very similar survivability, less hardy but with evasion.