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DPR olympics usually are at lv20 no? Fighter's DPR Skyrockets at lv20 with their capstone.
lv1
fighter has heavy armor and 1 combat feat
Barb can have heavy armor and rage
Paladin has heavy armor, smite and good will
Rangers only have light armor but gets +2 against some enemies.
fighter is the only one without a combat booster.
Fighter = 0
barb +2 attack and +3 damage
palaidn +cha attack and AC, and +1 damage at one target
ranger +2 against some enemies
At lv6
fighter has WT and armor training that does nothing if you don't have the dex and lets go with WS, bonus against fear
barb has heavy armor and moving faster than normal in armor, rage, great saves while raging, and increased AC from beast totem.
Paladin has heavy armor, smite x2, LoH, sacred bond, spells, Great saves, immunity to fear and disease.
Ranger has pre-req free feat and likely 5lv early access, spells, bond, and +4 fe and +2 fe.
So the fighter is now reaching +1 attack and +3 damage from class
Barb still has +2 attack and +3 damage while having better AC and saves
Paladin has +cha to attack and AC, and +6 damage twice, while having better saves and more effecting in combat health, and bond
Ranger has +4 to some and +2 to some better saves
Fighter does more damage than ranger and fighter at base, but has worse saves and worse spiking. Barb is better all the time since rage is effectively every round of every fight.
As you continue the fighter gloves, gloves of dueling, really help the fighter finally pull ahead in damage and accuracy. But it's two issues people complain about. That it's had to wait so long to finally be better at damage, and that it's overall combat stats are lower. Barbs, ranger, and paladins all have more survivability than fighter. Be it more AC, self healing, more HP, and better saves. AWT & AAT definitely helps in some of these areas, moving the complaint down to just takes a long time to finally come together. So much of the play range is untouched.
Fighting is far more than dpr.it's not really
people need to use readied actions and the like more often, also step up and strike line is(should be anyway) a common thing. also I mean fighters are the ones ones really capable of consistently 1 rounding CR+3 across all levels.
How is the fighter able to 1 round cr+3 enemies at all levels?
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How is the fighter able to 1 round cr+3 enemies at all levels?Fighting is far more than dpr.it's not really
people need to use readied actions and the like more often, also step up and strike line is(should be anyway) a common thing. also I mean fighters are the ones ones really capable of consistently 1 rounding CR+3 across all levels.
The enemy walks up to the fighter and defensively uses a spell to buffs his Charisma in an attempt to talk her way out of a fight.
Fighter full attack kills.
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How is the fighter able to 1 round cr+3 enemies at all levels?Fighting is far more than dpr.it's not really
people need to use readied actions and the like more often, also step up and strike line is(should be anyway) a common thing. also I mean fighters are the ones ones really capable of consistently 1 rounding CR+3 across all levels.
The enemy walks up to the fighter and defensively uses a spell to buffs his Charisma in an attempt to talk her way out of a fight.
Fighter full attack kills.
So the enemy is a complete moron?
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DPR olympics usually are at lv20 no? Fighter's DPR Skyrockets at lv20 with their capstone.
lv1
fighter has heavy armor and 1 combat feat
Barb can have heavy armor and rage
Paladin has heavy armor, smite and good will
Rangers only have light armor but gets +2 against some enemies.fighter is the only one without a combat booster.
Fighter = 0
barb +2 attack and +3 damage
palaidn +cha attack and AC, and +1 damage at one target
ranger +2 against some enemiesAt lv6
fighter has WT and armor training that does nothing if you don't have the dex and lets go with WS, bonus against fear
barb has heavy armor and moving faster than normal in armor, rage, great saves while raging, and increased AC from beast totem.
Paladin has heavy armor, smite x2, LoH, sacred bond, spells, Great saves, immunity to fear and disease.
Ranger has pre-req free feat and likely 5lv early access, spells, bond, and +4 fe and +2 fe.So the fighter is now reaching +1 attack and +3 damage from class
Barb still has +2 attack and +3 damage while having better AC and saves
Paladin has +cha to attack and AC, and +6 damage twice, while having better saves and more effecting in combat health, and bond
Ranger has +4 to some and +2 to some better savesFighter does more damage than ranger and fighter at base, but has worse saves and worse spiking. Barb is better all the time since rage is effectively every round of every fight.
As you continue the fighter gloves, gloves of dueling, really help the fighter finally pull ahead in damage and accuracy. But it's two issues people complain about. That it's had to wait so long to finally be better at damage, and that it's overall combat stats are lower. Barbs, ranger, and paladins all have more survivability than fighter. Be it more AC, self healing, more HP, and better saves. AWT & AAT definitely helps in some of these areas, moving the complaint down to just takes a long time to finally come together. So much of the play range is untouched.
Good summary.
Barb does not have heavy armour.
Flexibility is crucial to fighting. The Brawler has more fighting potential than the Fighter, while the Magus has more still.
what's more flexible that the options granted by your enemy being dead?
DPR olympics usually are at lv20 no? Fighter's DPR Skyrockets at lv20 with their capstone.
usually level 10 or 11, sometimes 12 or 8.
How is the fighter able to 1 round cr+3 enemies at all levels?Fighting is far more than dpr.it's not really
people need to use readied actions and the like more often, also step up and strike line is(should be anyway) a common thing. also I mean fighters are the ones ones really capable of consistently 1 rounding CR+3 across all levels.
any time they get within range, then you stand up and strike. If they charge you, then it's a real winner. surprise round for fighter means they get with in range too, it's easy to sneak in heavy armor as a fighter.
like seriously, everyone else wastes a turn on buffing, usually to get good at killing a single enemy. fighter? higher DPR over 3 rounds and can kill more opponents using things like lunge or simply threatening more opponents.
okay specifics, my go to items for any melee build are quick runners shirt for that moment YOU NEED TO FULL ATTACK, boots of haste or whatever, and on fighter duelist gloves which is +2 to weapon training.
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Barb does not have heavy armour.
Barb does not have heavy armour.can have heavy armor
Thought you mean core barb.
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How is the fighter able to 1 round cr+3 enemies at all levels?Fighting is far more than dpr.it's not really
people need to use readied actions and the like more often, also step up and strike line is(should be anyway) a common thing. also I mean fighters are the ones ones really capable of consistently 1 rounding CR+3 across all levels.
any time they get within range, then you stand up and strike. If they charge you, then it's a real winner. surprise round for fighter means they get with in range too, it's easy to sneak in heavy armor as a fighter.
like seriously, everyone else wastes a turn on buffing, usually to get good at killing a single enemy. fighter? higher DPR over 3 rounds and can kill more opponents using things like lunge or simply threatening more opponents.
okay specifics, my go to items for any melee build are quick runners shirt for that moment YOU NEED TO FULL ATTACK, boots of haste or whatever, and on fighter duelist gloves which is +2 to weapon training.
Just popping in to remind everyone that they nerfed the runners shirt and now it ends your turn after you use it.
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How is the fighter able to 1 round cr+3 enemies at all levels?Fighting is far more than dpr.it's not really
people need to use readied actions and the like more often, also step up and strike line is(should be anyway) a common thing. also I mean fighters are the ones ones really capable of consistently 1 rounding CR+3 across all levels.
any time they get within range, then you stand up and strike. If they charge you, then it's a real winner. surprise round for fighter means they get with in range too, it's easy to sneak in heavy armor as a fighter.
like seriously, everyone else wastes a turn on buffing, usually to get good at killing a single enemy. fighter? higher DPR over 3 rounds and can kill more opponents using things like lunge or simply threatening more opponents.
okay specifics, my go to items for any melee build are quick runners shirt for that moment YOU NEED TO FULL ATTACK, boots of haste or whatever, and on fighter duelist gloves which is +2 to weapon training.
Are you using the errata'd quickrunners shirt?
And the three classes I'm comparing it to from core classes don't take any time buffing either.And I don't see how the fighter is doing enough damage to 1 round someone with just 1 full attack.
at lv5 a CR8 monster should have about 100hp. a d8 enemy should have about 70hp. 8+5*7+2*8+8=68hp
this means that you need to make 2 attacks(cause haste) each deal about 35 damage to have a chance of 1 rounding an enemy.
lv6 a CR9 monster has 115 hp and d8 class enemy would have about 75.
That is 25 damage a hit for any chance of 1 rounding an enemy. How are you consistently putting out that much damage a hit?
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Thought you mean core barb.Barb does not have heavy armour.can have heavy armor
Nah, just main hardcover RPG barb, compared to main hardcover RPG fighter.
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Ugh Paizo why can't we have nice things? It was only once per encounter anyway.Just popping in to remind everyone that they nerfed the runners shirt and now it ends your turn after you use it.How is the fighter able to 1 round cr+3 enemies at all levels?Fighting is far more than dpr.it's not really
people need to use readied actions and the like more often, also step up and strike line is(should be anyway) a common thing. also I mean fighters are the ones ones really capable of consistently 1 rounding CR+3 across all levels.
any time they get within range, then you stand up and strike. If they charge you, then it's a real winner. surprise round for fighter means they get with in range too, it's easy to sneak in heavy armor as a fighter.
like seriously, everyone else wastes a turn on buffing, usually to get good at killing a single enemy. fighter? higher DPR over 3 rounds and can kill more opponents using things like lunge or simply threatening more opponents.
okay specifics, my go to items for any melee build are quick runners shirt for that moment YOU NEED TO FULL ATTACK, boots of haste or whatever, and on fighter duelist gloves which is +2 to weapon training.
For what it's worth I'm fairly confident that at this point Paizo has no real interest in "fixing" the fighter, as it were. I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't functioning close to how they intended.
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Just popping in to remind everyone that they nerfed the runners shirt and now it ends your turn after you use it.How is the fighter able to 1 round cr+3 enemies at all levels?Fighting is far more than dpr.it's not really
people need to use readied actions and the like more often, also step up and strike line is(should be anyway) a common thing. also I mean fighters are the ones ones really capable of consistently 1 rounding CR+3 across all levels.
any time they get within range, then you stand up and strike. If they charge you, then it's a real winner. surprise round for fighter means they get with in range too, it's easy to sneak in heavy armor as a fighter.
like seriously, everyone else wastes a turn on buffing, usually to get good at killing a single enemy. fighter? higher DPR over 3 rounds and can kill more opponents using things like lunge or simply threatening more opponents.
okay specifics, my go to items for any melee build are quick runners shirt for that moment YOU NEED TO FULL ATTACK, boots of haste or whatever, and on fighter duelist gloves which is +2 to weapon training.
I thought the nerf was you couldn't have like 12 in your closet that you could keep putting on, because i'm using that version(just 1 swift action movement per day).
has this thing been nerfed multiple times.
edit: looked it up, WHAT? omg that's actually severely lame. like it was already nerfed why did they nerf it again. what was 1 swift action per day movement breaking.
like now, this thing gives you basically no advantage except once per day you can add 30 feet to a sprint action.
like basically, why not just remove the item if they're going to do s%%& like this.
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This shirt is made of light, gossamer-thin fabric embroidered with arrangements of winged feet.
Once per day as a swift action, the wearer can take an additional move action to move and then immediately end his turn, losing any unspent actions.
A character must wear this shirt continuously for 24 hours before he can activate this ability.
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man this last hour has been weird, after my post i went to make lunch. I watched some funny stuff during that time. So i've gone from slightly annoyed, to jovial, to depressed.
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It's just too much to allow things to move AND attack in the same turn.
Blame the resident dev team soothsayer in charge of making these sorts of decisions.
at lv5 a CR8 monster should have about 100hp. a d8 enemy should have about 70hp. 8+5*7+2*8+8=68hpHow is the fighter able to 1 round cr+3 enemies at all levels?Fighting is far more than dpr.it's not really
people need to use readied actions and the like more often, also step up and strike line is(should be anyway) a common thing. also I mean fighters are the ones ones really capable of consistently 1 rounding CR+3 across all levels.
any time they get within range, then you stand up and strike. If they charge you, then it's a real winner. surprise round for fighter means they get with in range too, it's easy to sneak in heavy armor as a fighter.
like seriously, everyone else wastes a turn on buffing, usually to get good at killing a single enemy. fighter? higher DPR over 3 rounds and can kill more opponents using things like lunge or simply threatening more opponents.
okay specifics, my go to items for any melee build are quick runners shirt for that moment YOU NEED TO FULL ATTACK, boots of haste or whatever, and on fighter duelist gloves which is +2 to weapon training.
level 5 is the worst/best level you could have picked, though everything at around that level gets weird since the game knows an extra attack suddenly happens at 6th level. I find levels 1-5 to be a poor area to find "balance" in since back then everything dies REALLY quickly and suddenly CR 6 expects 2 'full' attacks to withstand.
It's just too much to allow things to move AND attack in the same turn.
Blame the resident dev team soothsayer in charge of making these sorts of decisions.
yeah once per day, even once per year is too much. once again, just remove the item since it provides no benefit in any situation ever. regardless of what you intend to do, you only ever plan to spend a swift action to make an additional move, if you need to do something THIS TURN. oh need to move and heal someone before they die and they're slightly out of range for a single movement? nah, too broken.
but even the lv6 example seems unreachable.
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yeah once per day, even once per year is too much. once again, just remove the item since it provides no benefit in any situation ever. regardless of what you intend to do, you only ever plan to spend a swift action to make an additional move, if you need to do something THIS TURN. oh need to move and heal someone before they die and they're slightly out of range for a single movement? nah, too broken.It's just too much to allow things to move AND attack in the same turn.
Blame the resident dev team soothsayer in charge of making these sorts of decisions.
It's still great for casters now. Need to cast a metamagic spell as a sorcerer and move? well you still can!
Want to move from behind a wall, cast a spell, and then run back behind the wall? you're in luck because you still can!
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My favorite use now is quick runners shirt to get a free cackle in the turn I need to move and cast
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*starts crying with face in hands sitting down on a curb*
edit: stroke of insight, I MIGHT still buy it since it's 1k, so i can move after I murder someone. maybe i can even stealth as part of that movement.
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The Quick Runner's Shirt is still useful for archers and other people who want to fight at range to attack, then move away from anything that might hurt them.
Which is to say that the strategies that were already good aren't going to stop being that way any time soon.
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They basically just removed the psudo pounce aspect which really only impact's melee characters (who arguably benefited the most).
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Rage Pounce then move away. Ha...works better for barbarians! ;)
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I figure putting pounce on a magic item would be a good idea, but it probably shouldn't be a 1k gold magic item that requires you to change your shirt several times through the day.
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Especially since you don't get the benefits from having charged using the shirt.
I think the big hang-up is that a lot of encounters breakdown when the melee guy can move and attack in one turn, more so in PFS. PF Combat is kind of one dimensional like that.
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I don't play PFS, but hearing the things that make its combat break down makes me wonder if every encounter is against a single creature that can only make one melee attack per turn and is wearing cement shoes...Especially since you don't get the benefits from having charged using the shirt.
I think the big hang-up is that a lot of encounters breakdown when the melee guy can move and attack in one turn, more so in PFS. PF Combat is kind of one dimensional like that.
That's a bit of an overstatement obviously, but you've got the sentiment down. PFS sacrifices a lot for the sake of streamlining the experience. Few of their encounters will utilize rules like weather or will include areas with different light levels, difficult terrain, or concealment. There is certainly benefits to designing with the lowest common denominator of characters in mind but such a method is not without its drawbacks.
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Why is moving+full attack such a bad idea?
I don't get it honestly. A Wizard can basically nullify entire armies with 1 area spell, but god forbids a fighter moves and full attack all on the same round, it makes no sense.
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It's not, but since it is so incredibly rare on the players side of things very few people take it into account when designing encounters so it ends up breaking things. At the core of things its probably an overreaction to some of the Shocktrooper-Power Attack-Pounce exploits that were available in 3.5.
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I disagree. The Fighter's problem isn't that he's only good at combat (hint: he's not). It's that he's not good enough at combat to justify not being good at anything else. And I don't mean him not having big enough numbers (although they would be nice too). I mean that he's not versatile in combat. Combat isn't just one thing. There's many ways to do combat and a good Fighter should be effective at at least a couple at the same time, with minimal optimization.
They are good at combat, though I agree that they aren't good enough at combat to justify not being good at anything else.... which is why I say fighters should gain an "anything else" to also be decent at.
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Flexibility is crucial to fighting. The Brawler has more fighting potential than the Fighter, while the Magus has more still.what's more flexible that the options granted by your enemy being dead?
Being able to punch a ghost or punch a haunt when you need to?
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yeah once per day, even once per year is too much. once again, just remove the item since it provides no benefit in any situation ever. regardless of what you intend to do, you only ever plan to spend a swift action to make an additional move, if you need to do something THIS TURN. oh need to move and heal someone before they die and they're slightly out of range for a single movement? nah, too broken.It's just too much to allow things to move AND attack in the same turn.
Blame the resident dev team soothsayer in charge of making these sorts of decisions.
It's still great for casters now. Need to cast a metamagic spell as a sorcerer and move? well you still can!
Want to move from behind a wall, cast a spell, and then run back behind the wall? you're in luck because you still can!
Dropped the guy you were fighting a want to move up to threaten the caster?
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I play Mages, Arcane and Divine. I recognize the value of having Fighters in my group of friends... friends that help prevent me from getting beaten down, preferably by imposing themselves between the threat and I. Often and without fail.
They are reliable, and when they engage into their groove, they can cast "Sword" more often than I have spell slots.
I don't believe they are as weak as people complain that they are, and as more supplements are released, they will only get more versatility, that one field where Fighters are classed into as being limited characters.
Think about it this way, the most broken spells are arguably most contained in CRB, and with Mythic and non-Epic spell progression, we will never see Base-10+ level spells. But, every so often, you have additional rules that give cool stuff to Martials.
Will the gap ever truly close? Prolly not. But, are they giving Martials more tools to have fun and contribute? I believe so. Weapon Master for example, and all those cool weapon/armor masteries you could swap out for stuff to tweak your character.
Regarding the original post... I'm glad your group realizes their value too. Unless you are in a high-magic, special-effect overkill campaign, having a linear-progression DPS buddy should not be considered a hindrance where you wish that player went Magus instead.
Are we asking for Paizo to print a canon version of Book of Nine Swords?
...I'll show myself out.