best ways to off a high level caster?
Being a higher level caster is good. The problem is that until details are defined, there's no way to say for sure. I could say, "do lots of ranged damage", but that only works if they haven't defended against that. I could say negative levels, but same issue. Antimagic field is really the only one-size-fits-all answer.
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Post the same question in so may threads that he reads that he goes nuts and kills himself.
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best ways to off a high level caster?
Get him to torque off the GM.
best ways to off a high level caster?
The element of surprise is always the best advantage you can get, regardless of their level.
The problem with high-level spellcasters isn't overcoming their defenses - because any single defense can be overcome - but rather dealing with their sheer unpredictability. You have no idea which combination of offensive and defensive spells they will be employing, and it is practically impossible to cover for every possibility. Giving the enemy wizard as little time and opportunity to react to you as possible is far and away the best advantage you can bring to such a fight.
Also, while it's no guarantee, attempt to study the casters' tactics.
There's no guarantee that a high level NPC caster will be run with all of their optimal choices in place. Find out if they have favorite spells, common tactics, etc., and prep for those as best as you can.
Depending on the size of the country the Paladin rules, there should be some high level arcane and divine casters that could help even the score as well.
Post the same question in so may threads that he reads that he goes nuts and kills himself.
Admittedly, funny. I did accidentally post the other post twice, but this one is in fact about a second issue. This is more about one arcanist, and what to build and do against him, the other about an arcanist and a mystic theurge against a paladin+country. But you made me chuckle
Ooh, I feel like I have to contribute.
The concentration cheeck for casring while hit, is really hard to beat. If you ready vital strikes and max out damage to interrupt spells, they're gonna have a hard time.
High initiative and the element of surprise certainly helps. If someone can cast dispel magic that's also great.
I like Inquisitors and my profile is a sample build.
Ooh, I feel like I have to contribute.
The concentration cheeck for casring while hit, is really hard to beat. If you ready vital strikes and max out damage to interrupt spells, they're gonna have a hard time.
High initiative and the element of surprise certainly helps. If someone can cast dispel magic that's also great.
I like Inquisitors and my profile is a sample build.
This honestly sits well with my favorite paladin build to be frank. Guess the answer is the same as it was at first level for most issues. Smash it hard and smart, heh
This honestly sits well with my paladins build to be frank. Guess the answer is the same as it was at first level for most issues. Smash it hard and smart, hehOoh, I feel like I have to contribute.
The concentration cheeck for casring while hit, is really hard to beat. If you ready vital strikes and max out damage to interrupt spells, they're gonna have a hard time.
High initiative and the element of surprise certainly helps. If someone can cast dispel magic that's also great.
I like Inquisitors and my profile is a sample build.
The trick is ever getting into a position where you can actually hit them. If you can do that, you've got a chance. Also, get a Phase Locking weapon.
As others have mentioned, there's lots of shenanigans that can happen with clone, magic jar and a few other spells to allow the caster to "survive" death.
It's definitely possible to beat an NPC Wizard in a fight. It might be possible to even kill one. It's much harder to keep one dead.
The concentration cheeck for casring while hit, is really hard to beat. If you ready vital strikes and max out damage to interrupt spells, they're gonna have a hard time.
Problem is that "I am capable of making an attack against my opponent" is not a reasonable presumption when you're facing off against a high-level spellcaster.
The concentration cheeck for casring while hit, is really hard to beat. If you ready vital strikes and max out damage to interrupt spells, they're gonna have a hard time.Problem is that "I am capable of making an attack against my opponent" is not a reasonable presumption when you're facing off against a high-level spellcaster.
True, though it depends on how his GM is going to play the caster. Also, if you want to pull the whole "I'm going to interrupt spells with damage" trick, you might want to be using a ranged weapon.
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This honestly sits well with my paladins build to be frank. Guess the answer is the same as it was at first level for most issues. Smash it hard and smart, hehOoh, I feel like I have to contribute.
The concentration cheeck for casring while hit, is really hard to beat. If you ready vital strikes and max out damage to interrupt spells, they're gonna have a hard time.
High initiative and the element of surprise certainly helps. If someone can cast dispel magic that's also great.
I like Inquisitors and my profile is a sample build.
How are you going to reach him? A wizard or sorcerer who could reasonably be called "high level" has overland flight running literally all day every day.
How are you going to catch him? A high-level cleric can literally ask God what to watch out for each day, and get a genuine answer. Are you ready to face the 77-90% chance that God tells him you're planning to attack?
How are you going to find him? The sorc/wizard can literally create a new plane of existence to hide in. Or the cleric, upon being alerted by God that you're going to show up to attack on X day, can just pop over to heaven (or wherever), then wait to go home until God says it's safe. (Or if he's really cautious, he can also do that on days when his divination fails, just to be on the safe side.)
And this is just within the Core Rulebook, and without even getting into "liberal interpretations of ambiguous spells" that certain folks like to try and ascribe all game imbalances to.
If you want to kill a high-level caster, you need to either be a higher-level caster yourself, or get the player/GM who's controlling the caster to want the caster to fight you directly (for some reason).
Best of luck.
This honestly sits well with my paladins build to be frank. Guess the answer is the same as it was at first level for most issues. Smash it hard and smart, hehOoh, I feel like I have to contribute.
The concentration cheeck for casring while hit, is really hard to beat. If you ready vital strikes and max out damage to interrupt spells, they're gonna have a hard time.
High initiative and the element of surprise certainly helps. If someone can cast dispel magic that's also great.
I like Inquisitors and my profile is a sample build.
How are you going to reach him? A wizard or sorcerer who could reasonably be called "high level" has overland flight running literally all day every day.
How are you going to catch him? A high-level cleric can literally ask God what to watch out for each day, and get a genuine answer. Are you ready to face the 77-90% chance that God tells him you're planning to attack?
How are you going to find him? The sorc/wizard can literally create a new plane of existence to hide in. Or the cleric, upon being alerted by God that you're going to show up to attack on X day, can just pop over to heaven (or wherever), then wait to go home until God says it's safe. (Or if he's really cautious, he can also do that on days when his divination fails, just to be on the safe side.)
And this is just within the Core Rulebook, and without even getting into "liberal interpretations of ambiguous spells" that certain folks like to try and ascribe all game imbalances to.
If you want to kill a high-level caster, you need to either be a higher-level caster yourself, or get the player/GM who's controlling the caster to want the caster to fight you directly (for some reason).
Best of luck.
I don't know if it seems too easy, but I just use ranged attacks... Missing something?
You could try the step-chain, but it doesn't seem worth it IMO. You can move up to 10 feet, when they can move 30, which means they could still safely cast.
The less buffing they get the better. Although I like Inquisitor as they can use magic items to help undo shenanigans.
Ranged attacks work if you win initiative and he doesn't have the ability to quicken/immediate action a "no" response to ranged attacks like Greater Invisibility (plus movement), Dimension Door, Resilient Sphere/Wall of Force, or Condensed Ether.
LOL, j/k Emergency Force Sphere is all he needs if he's a 7/8th level Wiz/Sorc.
LOL, j/k Emergency Force Sphere is all he needs if he's a 7/8th level Wiz/Sorc.
You can't cast emergency force sphere if you're flat-footed, since it's an immediate action. You could have it as a contingency ("if I'm attacked by %n before I can act"), though then you're burning your contingency on that, rather than something better.
Right, but I'm assuming the ranged strategy is to interrupt spells with readied actions so that he never gets a spell off, not just to kill him on the first round with rocket tag. You can't interrupt an immediate action, so once he can act he's invulnerable. Buff/teleport out when you're ready.
There's not a lot of better contingencies than "I'm immune to being surprise attacked unless they coordinate with a dispel magic." I mean you might want to go with a more reactive/force multiplier defense or a action economy boosting buff, but emergency force sphere isn't scrub tier.
Missing something?
Dunno. Probably the "high level" part...
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This honestly sits well with my paladins build to be frank. Guess the answer is the same as it was at first level for most issues. Smash it hard and smart, hehOoh, I feel like I have to contribute.
The concentration cheeck for casring while hit, is really hard to beat. If you ready vital strikes and max out damage to interrupt spells, they're gonna have a hard time.
High initiative and the element of surprise certainly helps. If someone can cast dispel magic that's also great.
I like Inquisitors and my profile is a sample build.
How are you going to reach him? A wizard or sorcerer who could reasonably be called "high level" has overland flight running literally all day every day.
How are you going to catch him? A high-level cleric can literally ask God what to watch out for each day, and get a genuine answer. Are you ready to face the 77-90% chance that God tells him you're planning to attack?
How are you going to find him? The sorc/wizard can literally create a new plane of existence to hide in. Or the cleric, upon being alerted by God that you're going to show up to attack on X day, can just pop over to heaven (or wherever), then wait to go home until God says it's safe. (Or if he's really cautious, he can also do that on days when his divination fails, just to be on the safe side.)
And this is just within the Core Rulebook, and without even getting into "liberal interpretations of ambiguous spells" that certain folks like to try and ascribe all game imbalances to.
If you want to kill a high-level caster, you need to either be a higher-level caster yourself, or get the player/GM who's controlling the caster to want the caster to fight you directly (for some reason).
Best of luck.
I don't know if it seems too easy, but I just use ranged attacks... Missing something?
You could try the step-chain, but it doesn't seem worth it IMO. You can move up to 10 feet, when they can move 30, which means they could still safely cast.
The less buffing they get the better. Although I like Inquisitor as they can use magic items to help undo shenanigans.
I'm not quite clear on your meaning. Would you mind going point-by-point through my post and explaining how ranged attacks and/or Step Up apply to each of the issues I brought up?
Thanks.
LOL, j/k Emergency Force Sphere is all he needs if he's a 7/8th level Wiz/Sorc.You can't cast emergency force sphere if you're flat-footed, since it's an immediate action. You could have it as a contingency ("if I'm attacked by %n before I can act"), though then you're burning your contingency on that, rather than something better.
Well, that also assumes it's not a diviner wizard. Since those always act in surprise rounds and have crazy initiatives. So while this maybe will work against some wizards, a lot have awesome initiatives and some are diviners with crazy initiative.
Well, that also assumes it's not a diviner wizard. Since those always act in surprise rounds and have crazy initiatives. So while this maybe will work against some wizards, a lot have awesome initiatives and some are diviners with crazy initiative.LOL, j/k Emergency Force Sphere is all he needs if he's a 7/8th level Wiz/Sorc.You can't cast emergency force sphere if you're flat-footed, since it's an immediate action. You could have it as a contingency ("if I'm attacked by %n before I can act"), though then you're burning your contingency on that, rather than something better.
My original point stands. Emergency force sphere gets thrown around a lot as the counter to ever getting surprised for a Wizard, but it only works if you get to act in the surprise round and also win Initiative. Now be honest, how many Divination school Wizards have you actually seen in play? My personal answer is not many. I see them all the time on the boards at level 20, but most wizards I've actually seen played are Conjuration (or Teleportation) with a handful who wanted to play blasters and picked Evocation instead.
In other words, you're correct. A level 20 Divination School Wizard with her capstone ability will be functionally impossible to beat on initiative in the surprise round. Of course, she shouldn't really need emergency force sphere in that case anyway, since she gets to act first anyway.
However, there are numerous schools of magic. Nothing we have seen indicates that the caster in question is a wizard with the Divination school. If they're not, they can in principle be surprised, even with high initiative.
In this case, I think the enemy an Arcanist, which means that initiative is not guaranteed, even if they selected the school understanding exploit and used it for Divination. All of this is build specific, and we don't know the caster build.
This idea goes back to when I said, "you should prepare and find out things about your enemy."
out of all the wizards I've seen in PFS it's sitting a 25% of them are diviners, and 50% are exploiters which could get it, of course not all of them are or did.
There's a nice trait for worshiping torag that makes you not flat footed before you act, thus letting immediate actions happen when surprised. If I were a high powered wizard and new that my only weakness was getting surprised I'd love torag for that blessing.
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My original point stands.
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Nothing we have seen indicates that the caster in question is a wizard with the Divination school. If they're not, they can in principle be surprised, even with high initiative.
Even so, you seem to be operating under the assumption that the would-be assassin has the ability to initiate combat against the high-level caster at all (let alone as a surprise), which in Pathfinder is a flawed premise to begin with.
If you want to talk about taking down a high-level Pathfinder caster, you first need to demonstrate that you're capable of rolling initiative in the caster's presence. Until you can do that, all talk of winning initiative (or of having a surprise round) is illegitimate.
Is the ranged plan still just to win initiative and kill the wizard with a full attack plus one surprise shot before he can act?
Because ok if you can do it, and if they're not a Diviner you can get a slight edge at low to mid levels (you'll have a higher Dex, might have Heightened Awareness up if you're a Ranger or Inquisitor so that's a wash, and can take Improved Initiative just like they can). I'm not going to say a low level Wizard's False Life boosted HP/unbuffed AC/always up miss chances can reliably survive that, especially if you land a crit or just use Named Bullet ahead of time.
But it really falls apart once Contingency is in play, and I suspect the intent was to keep disrupting spells on subsequent rounds. Emergency Force Sphere really does shut that down after the Wizard can act in round 1.
Ranged doesn't obviously have a huge advantage over or a different strategy from a flying pounce build.
best ways to off a high level caster?
1. you have to find out where all the demi-planes that he stashed clones in are located.
best ways to off a high level caster?
2. Make sure you are not attacking an astral projection
best ways to off a high level caster?
3. Make sure there are no contingencies in play that will whisk the caster to safety.
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best ways to off a high level caster?
4. Under no circumstances allow him to cast a spell.
out of all the wizards I've seen in PFS it's sitting a 25% of them are diviners, and 50% are exploiters which could get it, of course not all of them are or did.
There's a nice trait for worshiping torag that makes you not flat footed before you act, thus letting immediate actions happen when surprised. If I were a high powered wizard and new that my only weakness was getting surprised I'd love torag for that blessing.
On a more serious note.
- Diviners and Exploiters are not the only ones to play the initiative game.
- Soehi monks, kensai, and inquisitors can all match or exceed even the most hardcore diviner in initiative.
- Any class can take Nameless One to at least partially shield themselves from divination.
My preference is the kensai. Even if your first hit fails to kill, with the right arcana your attacks count as lingering damage, forcing very high concentration checks. Emergency Force Bubble goes away if the first swing delivers a Disintegrate.
My original point stands.
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Nothing we have seen indicates that the caster in question is a wizard with the Divination school. If they're not, they can in principle be surprised, even with high initiative.
Even so, you seem to be operating under the assumption that the would-be assassin has the ability to initiate combat against the high-level caster at all (let alone as a surprise), which in Pathfinder is a flawed premise to begin with.
If you want to talk about taking down a high-level Pathfinder caster, you first need to demonstrate that you're capable of rolling initiative in the caster's presence. Until you can do that, all talk of winning initiative (or of having a surprise round) is illegitimate.
Actually, Jiggy, if you read my first post you'll see that the very first thing I said is that the first trick was ever being able to hit the caster, i.e., he's likely to lose the duel without ever landing a blow. Since (from other posts), I know that the caster is demanding some form of a duel, starting combat should not be the problem.
Wait, if you're talking about the caster demanding a duel, why are you discussing surprise rounds?
The original discussion was just winning initiative. In a hurried response, I mentioned a surprise round, which is a mistake, since I wasn't being super careful as I typed. My apologies.
It's still true that you cannot cast emergency force sphere while flat-footed. It's also true that many casters find ways to boost their initiative.
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Few casters remove themselves from opponents (say with a fly spell) so they're at the same level you are (good tip for GMs, keep the casters inaccessible from the PCs; not just at the back of the opposition's party).
Few? Every caster I've seen capable of it has used a flight ability to flip the bird to melee opponents.
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Did you all roll 20s on both your Grapple and Dirty Trick attempts? A level 20 Wizard has 10 BaB before any defenses, and should have a solid Dex as well.
Your GM frankly played that caster as a moron. There are very few ways he could have softballed that encounter other than having the Wizard punch one of you. I'm also kind of confused how you avoided a Wall of Fire cast around you...it grants no save. You guys all tanked 2d6+20 fire damage at level 1, and then grappled him somehow?
You sure he was a level 20 Wizard?
Creativity my ass, even with that softball tactic you have to break the rules in 4 different ways just to manage it. Of course you can accomplish anything if the GM lets you cheat.
I'm trying to figure up if it's even mathematically possible to keep that Wizard tied up, even assuming he didn't have some spell prepared to get out of it (or a low enough level spell without Verbal components that could screw over the entire party and he couldn't fail the Concentration DC...and they do exist). Let's do it for the shiggles.
I'm going to stack the deck against this caster as much as possible, and in your favor as much as possible.
Assuming your GM forgot how Wall of Fire worked and you all lived, you have say a 5 man party and you all dogpiled him. One of your members is a Fighter that is specialized in Grappling. He is an Orc, with 20 strongth, and Improved Grapple. He rolls a 20 to Grapple, giving him a whopping 27 to Grapple. You each aid another, granting a +8 for a total 35 to Grapple. Pretty hefty stuff. So, okay, he's Grappled.
Your Wizard is a wizened old man who dumped Dex and Str. He started with 7 each, and being Venerable has given him a pitiful 4 in both stats. He, of course being a 20th level Wizard, has a +6 belt to all stats, and +5 Inherent bonuses from Tomes or Wishing, giving him a total of 15 Dex and Str, or +2 to each. He has 10 BaB, giving him a total of +14 CMB, and a 24 CMD (he left his Ring of Protection in his other pocket along with his other AC boosters, sadly). So hey, your Orc Grappler only needs a 16 to Pin, and a 16 to Tie Up (an 8 on each with your Aids, which we're assuming all succeed...even though that's not guaranteed either)! He's also, somehow, gagged at the same time. We won't worry about figuring out how in the rules, since he's not going to bother to cast a spell to escape anyway.
Once Tied Up, there is a flat DC of 20+CMB (only the tier's CMB, not the helpers') to escape the ropes, or a 28 total. Our Wizard buddy here is in bad shape...he needs a single 16 to escape. Given he has literal hours, where he can try EVERY ROUND to escape, the chances of him permanently failing approach zero. But, let's be generous again and say you beat the s#%$ out of him once he's tied up. You're all wielding Greatswords and all of you have 20 Str (a party of Orc Fighters!), using Power Attack to deal 2d6+7 damage a turn, or an average of 14 per person, or a whopping 70 per round! Go you guys!
The Wizard also dumped Con, because we've already established he's an idiot, and so only has PFS average HP of 126, giving him only 2 rounds to escape.
So, given all that, it is very difficult for the Wizard to break free!
Of course, that is the best possible scenario for you, and if pretty much any of the above is changed, the odds become HEAVILY less weighted i your favor. So, it is mathematically possible, but the exact designation for the odds of it working are professionally called pretty f~#@ing slim.
Of course the more likely scenario is he had that 7 Str, but a 14 Dex to start, and was of normal age giving him a 15 Str and 25 Dex, plus his Ring of Protection +5 boosting him to a 34 CMD and minimum, unbuffed 23 AC vs your likely +5 attack bonuses for the big dumb fighter types, so even if he'd been lobotimized as he clearly was here, he could dance through all you guys singing "Nanana can't touch this" and eventually just beat you all to death with his bare hands because he's as good at melee combat as a 10th level Fighter vs your level 1s.
Complex question.
NPC 20th level wizards are very different from PC 20th level wizards.
First, let us say your PC is 20th level as well. Any first level PC shouldn't be able to match a 20th level character of any class.
The question is still difficult due to the wide range of tactics a full caster can employ at 20th level. Crafters will likely have a bunch of toys, conjurers will teleport or summon things; blasters throw a bunch of rays, fireballs, or save or suck spells. All of those are tactics accepted by NPC casters, or players that "play nice" with the narrative. In short, tough, yet not unbeatable smoke and mirrors.
That's still a wide range of things to choose from.
If the caster is creative and goes in a logical "Tippyverse" extreme, there's no point. If you could threaten the Tipyverse caster, the caster will never be found by your character. If you are also a Tippyverse caster, then you would both wind up fighting indirectly against each other and turn the game into a Schrodinger's puzzle rather than a true fantasy narrative.
It varies by caster, and how the GM plays them. There is no method that will always(even 75%) work, but I do suggest that you also play a caster.
More on topic, a high level Paladin isn't a bad match for an equal level full caster ASSUMING you can lock him into a fair fight somehow. You have the saves to tank a lot of spells, you can fly (and gain some useful immunities) with Greater Angelic Aspect, and beat the crap out of him if you can get in close.
A lot of the classic NPC caster tactics of "summon help and save or die like a m&&#&&%#@~$%" bounce right off you, so you're in good shape.
If this is PVP though...yeah good luck with that buddy, your only chance was to kill him before he hit level 11. Any chance you could get access to a time machine and kill him when he was level 1?
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Now be honest, how many Divination school Wizards have you actually seen in
Honestly, 50% of wizards are teleportation and 50% are diviner (foresight). A negligable percentage are some other thing...these are the poor losers who don't read FAQs and who are not very likely to play a wizard in the first place.
So if you ask how common this is....well....pretty damn common....
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I wouldn't call someone a 'loser' just because they want to play a slightly different wizard but, yeah, diviner is pretty common from my experience too.
The Wizard also dumped Con, because we've already established he's an idiot, and so only has PFS average HP of 126, giving him only 2 rounds to escape.
This made me laugh.
Although if the wizard really is an idiot (Intelligence=3) then they will be no challenge since they can't cast spells.
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best ways to off a high level caster?
Lots of these:
Time travel. Kill them in the womb.
That didn't work for Skynet.
