If you bump only the hard encounters but not the easy ones then the PCs will have too many resources when they hit the hard encounters. You might as well switch to 1 encounter days since that has a similar effect.
So here's the thing. If you run a proper difficult encounter, with enemies using smart tactics, then the amount of resources the party have at their disposal shouldn't matter too much, due to action economy limitations. Indeed, if the players show up to a truly difficult battle completely drained of meaningful resources, if that pushes the difficulty up, it could push it into a TPK. This style lets the players have a tough fight knowing they weren't gipped by lack of resources (which can quickly lead to one-encounter days).
Indeed, one of the nice things about this design philosophy is that it DOES reduce the difference between normal play and one encounter days. If we take this to it's logical conclusion, that means players are actually encouraged to have longer dungeon delves, longer adventures, and not get paranoid about going back to town after every encounter. This is actually a good thing. (And with most reasonable parties, the end result of THAT is that the party ends up fighting more easy battles at once, draining more resources over time, even if less per battle. In my experience, it really does balance out.)
There's a very different philosophy here than the normal philosophy where Pathfinder is about every fight being a challenge. But I'm really starting to like the idea that not every encounter needs to be perfectly balanced on a razor's edge, and that it's ok to have easy battles, use random encounter tables, and not worry so much about exactly how many resources the players will have when fighting bosses. In return, there's less reason for the party to use unnatural super-cautious (that is, we have to rest for a night after every fight) playstyles and in those big fights you have no reason to pull your punches.
I don't like 15pt buy. The main reason is it works good for some classes and really put other classes at a disadvantage. Fighter vs Monk for example.
As well I've played RotRl and 15 pt buy is playing that AP in hard mode. I've run a several APs and 20 pt buy works better, results in fewer TPKs.
Now with Horror Adventures book, well 15 pt buy might not be that bad as weaker character are easier to get that fear.
As for Color Spray, APs generally do not have opposition spellcasters until several levels into the AP. As a result sleep is off the table, but even the stunning effect should only hit about 1/4 of the group. Assuming your party is half-way spread out (normal deployment) then only half the group should be hit by the color spray. Only half of those should fail. DC here for a 1st level NPC wizard is only 14. Even a 1st level fighter has a decent chance of making that save. Figure the 1st level fighter has a +2 Will save (12 Wisdom, +1 from trait) then they need to roll a 12. That is a 45% chance of success. Highly doubtful your party will succumb to this.
Aside from your hyperbole about the spells I also think your logic here is circular. If you buff the monsters of course your player's PCs will need buffing. If you don't buff the monsters then no, they won't.
Your hypothetical fighter is investing very precious resources [ridiculously precious in a 15 point buy] into that 12 Wisdom, AND spending half a feat on Will saves [half a feat at level 1 when these resources are incredibly precious even to the Fighter.]
As to your hyperbole about spells, have you looked at the duration of Protection From Evil? It doesn't cancel domination and similar effects anymore, that was changed in Pathfinder.
Now, if your party always has minute per level buffs in place, maybe that's the reason you don't feel the need to hand-hold 15 point characters?
PoE gives them a new save. That is what I think he was referring to, and if it is used in advance the spell doesn't work on them.
Not directed at anyone in particular:
With that aside the need to hand-hold 15 point characters is not objective. I have had groups with 25 point buy struggle, and groups with 20 point buy mudstomp an AP. That same group was full of people who knew the system well so even with a 15 point buy they are going to mudstomp an AP. That is why I really don't think the point buy matters much if you are dealing with players who know the system well, and this is even assuming you enforce the rule that magic items are only 75% likely to be available if they fall within the proper price range.
On the other hand, if you have players who don't know the system well and/or don't really push to optimize characters point buy will matter more.
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To me 15 point buy represents "unheroic" characters, average, normal, everyday people who happen to be thrust into a fantastic adventure. They usually have some manner of negative modifier or two, something that has always been a big deterrent to me, and some people seem to very much enjoy roleplaying these types of characters.
I however just never understood the appeal, after all the game is about fantasy and heroes aren't average people most of the time.
This is exactly why 15 point buy appeals to me. The PCs will be plenty heroic soon enough anyway. I like for them to have started out as somewhat close to normal. I like the idea they aren't just better than nearly everyone at nearly everything, right from the get-go. I like for them to have real and significant weaknesses to work around. If that's not your style of game, nothing wrong with that. But it looks like you know exactly what appeals to people about low-power point buys, and it's just not your cup of tea.
(As far as why that kind of thing appeals to me: I see high fantasy as not being about things normal people can't do, but about things normal people can do, with however much flashy power is needed to make it sound inspiring and worthwhile. For that purpose, Luke Skywalker is a much more meaningful character than Anakin, because however unrealistically, he represents the idea that it's someone just like you who's capable of all this - which is, in the important ways, true.)
You are not going to be Paralyzed or Die from it (that would require CR+4 for PAralysis and CR+9 for Killed).I've been paralyzed by a Blasphemy (which requires lvl+5, btw). And, while Will is my weak save, I don't have the weakest Will in the party (thanks to Superstition jacking up my saves). However, there was no chance for the party to be TPK'd by this, since we were spread out and the spread came from a fissure (also, some party members would have made the save and the enemies couldn't kill all of those in 1 round - the paralysis duration on a successful save).
Level+5 = CR+4 in the case of creatures with no racial HD and class levels.
Create BBEG with PC levels, such as a Human with 14 levels in Cleric, the CR is level-1 = 13.Thus, to meet level+5 you generally need CR+4 (in the case of clerics).
As for Color Spray, APs generally do not have opposition spellcasters until several levels into the AP. As a result sleep is off the table, but even the stunning effect should only hit about 1/4 of the group. Assuming your party is half-way spread out (normal deployment) then only half the group should be hit by the color spray. Only half of those should fail. DC here for a 1st level NPC wizard is only 14. Even a 1st level fighter has a decent chance of making that save. Figure the 1st level fighter has a +2 Will save (12 Wisdom, +1 from trait) then they need to roll a 12. That is a 45% chance of success. Highly doubtful your party will succumb to this.
Aside from your hyperbole about the spells I also think your logic here is circular. If you buff the monsters of course your player's PCs will need buffing. If you don't buff the monsters then no, they won't.
Your hypothetical fighter is investing very precious resources [ridiculously precious in a 15 point buy] into that 12 Wisdom, AND spending half a feat on Will saves [half a feat at level 1 when these resources are incredibly precious even to the Fighter.]
As to your hyperbole about spells, have you looked at the duration of Protection From Evil? It doesn't cancel domination and similar effects anymore, that was changed in Pathfinder.
Now, if your party always has minute per level buffs in place, maybe that's the reason you don't feel the need to hand-hold 15 point characters?
What self-respecting Fighter isn't going to use a trait to add +1 to his Will save? Seriously, there are very few traits that trump that one (for poor will save builds).
As for the 'cant afford a 12 Wisdom', sure you can. 14Str (5), 12Dex(2), 14Con (5), 12Wis (2), 12 Int(2), 9Cha(-1). Boom, ye ole man in a can. Add racial mods and you are done.
Heck, drop Cha to 7 and you can bump Wis to 14 although some GMs may find that cheesy.
Re: Dominate
PFE has a long duration option: Magic Circle. Many adventurers have this going. Yes, if cast after the fact it does cancel domination in the form of granting a second save with a bonus. Additionally, it makes you immune to dominate if cast before the domination effect is cast.
Suppress Charms and Compulsions also suppresses the Dominate 100% of the time for 10 minutes. Plenty long enough to kill the offending spellcaster or tie up the dominated fool and cart him off until you can effect a more permanent solution.
Seriously, most of the spells you have brought up do not need a juiced up PC to deal with. Some forethought and planning will do far better.
If you bump only the hard encounters but not the easy ones then the PCs will have too many resources when they hit the hard encounters. You might as well switch to 1 encounter days since that has a similar effect.
So here's the thing. If you run a proper difficult encounter, with enemies using smart tactics, then the amount of resources the party have at their disposal shouldn't matter too much, due to action economy limitations. Indeed, if the players show up to a truly difficult battle completely drained of meaningful resources, if that pushes the difficulty up, it could push it into a TPK. This style lets the players have a tough fight knowing they weren't gipped by lack of resources (which can quickly lead to one-encounter days).
Indeed, one of the nice things about this design philosophy is that it DOES reduce the difference between normal play and one encounter days. If we take this to it's logical conclusion, that means players are actually encouraged to have longer dungeon delves, longer adventures, and not get paranoid about going back to town after every encounter. This is actually a good thing. (And with most reasonable parties, the end result of THAT is that the party ends up fighting more easy battles at once, draining more resources over time, even if less per battle. In my experience, it really does balance out.)
There's a very different philosophy here than the normal philosophy where Pathfinder is about every fight being a challenge. But I'm really starting to like the idea that not every encounter needs to be perfectly balanced on a razor's edge, and that it's ok to have easy battles, use random encounter tables, and not worry so much about exactly how many resources the players will have when fighting bosses. In return, there's less reason for the party to use unnatural super-cautious (that is, we have to rest for a night after every fight) playstyles and in those big fights you have no reason to pull your punches.
Actually, it really does make a difference. Being able to throw EVERY buff your group has on the group for the BBEG fight regularly has the effect of negating that encounter as an effective encounter.
Now, if the PCs had used some of those buffs earlier on monsters that weren't total pushovers but not BBEG level either then, maybe, the BBEG would be the encounter it is supposed to be.
This is exactly the same result as 1 encounter days. Give PCs the ability to dump their biggest and best buffs on themselves and they will cakewalk CR+3 encounters and even have an excellent shot at CR+5 (I have seen it).
In short, yes, it does require more work because either you have to super-charge the BBEG to deal with this 'the PCs will just supercharge themselves' problem or you have to buff the regular encounters back up to 'regular' so that the PCs will use some resources on them. Heck, even super-charging the BBEG has issues, it is really easy to tip it over into the 'too hard for the PCs because they didn't actually do what you expected' territory.
Just much simpler to avoid the problem altogether by running the AP as it is designed, with 15point buy.
P.S. I keep referencing 15 point buy on the APs only because that is the only reference that matters. 15, 20, 25, 1million point buy doesn't matter for non-AP material because then the design of the adventure will be based on a different premise.
That is implying the players know that the battle that matters is about to happen before the fight begins, and that they have time to prebuff, which is a dream scenario that doesn't often happen.
I mean, it might happen with groups that abuse scrying, and with GMs that allow their games to become predictable. If the BBEG knows the players are in the dungeon, he's likely to fight them on his terms. If the players make it through the dungeon without the BBEG becoming aware of their presence, then the players did a damn good job and should be rewarded for it.
And it's also worth noting that the difference between 15 point buy and 25 point buy isn't going to magically turn all battles into complete pushovers. It's equal to maybe half a CR difference at best. Even the extreme stats that Kyrt gives his players aren't going to turn battles into pushovers provided you step up the "AI" of the enemies. (Especially if you allow your dungeons to be active complexes and respond to the enemies, have particularly weak enemies join up with other weak enemy groups, lure players into traps, etc- which doesn't require any extra prep beforehand, it just requires basic improvisation and maybe some organization)
(This also assumes a level of powergaming I don't like to assume for my players. It's normal to want to have higher saves to not die. I can't, however, count on my players gravitating towards spell casting classes, using divine casters, and relying on uber buff strategies.)
EDIT: This also does apply to adventure paths, at least the ones I've run. There's plenty of dungeons with intelligent BBEGs that have the resources to really mess with players in those APs. Plenty of dungeons that can be turned into active complexes that can change the encounters from a pushover to deadly threats. The key is to step up the AI, not the stats.
You must have a different group style than I am used to. Most of my groups come in with massive buffing.
Aside from the long duration stuff (Heroism, Magic Circle, Mage Armor, Barkskin, etc.) there is the short duration stuff. Know how long it takes to get that up and running? 1-2 rounds. Know how easy it is to buy that much time? 1 spell...Wall, Cloud, or D-Door, take your pick.
But it is that short duration stuff that typically kicks it over the top. And if the PCs wafflestomped all the encounters beforehand, they probably burned very little time and still have their long duration stuff up. They probably have all those short duration buffs they might've used already had they had a regular encounter instead of an easy encounter.
That difference between 15 and 25 point buy is the difference between hitting and missing 5-10% of the time or saving or failing 5-10% of the time.
When the game is predicated on average chances of something succeeding or failing then that 5-10% actually stacks up fast.
Stepping up the AI doesn't change anything because I always step up the AI. I play all monsters with the intelligence that befits the monster. It comes down to hits, misses, etc.
In any case, this is a general discussion and it will be full of our experiences and anecdotes. There is no hard evidence to be had here, it is formed based on experiences and mine are that every +1 can make a difference to the difficulty of an encounter. When you have PCs that are built very well you don't need to add insult to injury by giving them even more points.
Well, my current group has two martials, a bow rogue, a life oracle focused on healing (he likes healing, mains Soraka in league of legends, etc), and a blaster-sorcerer. It is very true that my players right now are not... optimized. >_> (This is my Serpent's Skull adventure path, 20 point buy, and it's been excellent. But I mean, I've also been playing enemies fairly low-INT to compensate for the weaker party that doesn't do fun things like "buff").
However, in my experiences as a PLAYER, we rarely have time to self buff, stealth rarely happens successfully in dungeons, the BBEG usually has more time to prepare than we do, and resources therefore don't make a ton of difference, outside of battles being abnormally difficult if we're completely out of resources, but we usually go home and rest before that point.
Besides, as far as casters using Dimension Door to get extra buffing rounds and similar tactics, if they're going to go that route, there's little stopping them from, say, abusing Rope Trick to rest in the middle of dungeons whenever they feel like it. There's often nothing to keep them from leaving the dungeon and powering up for fighting the BBEG tomorrow, so the whole argument is a little pointless here. I can't always impose time limits without them feeling contrived, after all. At this point it doesn't really matter, the challenge is going to be going down the gutter anyway. My intention is to have boss fights challenge most average parties, not to completely solve the martial/caster disparity. If I want to do that, I'll play Path of War and Spheres of Power.
PS: my goal isn't to say that you're wrong, or that 15 PB is bad (though it's not my style). I'm just trying to argue that it's actually a very valid GMing style to not care so much about making sure all the minor battles aren't easy, while actually caring about keeping the final battle tough.
I personally hate feeling limited by my class's required stats and being punished for "choosing the wrong race." That's what I don't like about 15 point buy. If you want to make something good you have to use one of the races that gives the right stat bonuses or you're going to have to dump a bunch of stats. What if i want my elven tanky fighter to be smart/charismatic/not a brain dead idiot with a big stick? I can't because all my points have to be forced into my con and strength. With 15 point buy I can't really do that without gimping myself. 25 point buy ensures that any race/class combination is going to work just fine.
Hmmm so this turned into me talking about why 15 point buy does not appeal to me instead....Whatever, I'll post it anyway.
I'm totally sympathetic to the idea that it's kind of lame that the rules disincentivize various class/race combinations, like Elven Fighters, Halfling Barbarians, or Dwarven Bards. But I'm not sure changing from a 15 to a 25 PB changes that -- a Halfling Barbarian is still going to be significantly disadvantaged relative to a Half-Orc Barbarian given a 25 PB.
What you need to do in order to make unusual class/race combinations viable, I think, is to offer the option of not taking the usual stat adjustments. For example, offering players a choice like this:
(1) X point-buy (with usual racial stat adjustments),
or
(2) X+10 point-buy (without racial stat adjustments).
That will make something like a Halfling Barbarian completely viable. It's true that a Half-Orc Barbarian can still get a 20 strength (using the first option), while a Halfling Barbarian can "only" get up to a 18 strength (using the second option). But a Halfling Barbarian built using the second option will get a batch of extra points to spread around to compensate.
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Well, my current group has two martials, a bow rogue, a life oracle focused on healing (he likes healing, mains Soraka in league of legends, etc), and a blaster-sorcerer. It is very true that my players right now are not... optimized. >_> (This is my Serpent's Skull adventure path, 20 point buy, and it's been excellent. But I mean, I've also been playing enemies fairly low-INT to compensate for the weaker party that doesn't do fun things like "buff").
However, in my experiences as a PLAYER, we rarely have time to self buff, stealth rarely happens successfully in dungeons, the BBEG usually has more time to prepare than we do, and resources therefore don't make a ton of difference, outside of battles being abnormally difficult if we're completely out of resources, but we usually go home and rest before that point.
Besides, as far as casters using Dimension Door to get extra buffing rounds and similar tactics, if they're going to go that route, there's little stopping them from, say, abusing Rope Trick to rest in the middle of dungeons whenever they feel like it. There's often nothing to keep them from leaving the dungeon and powering up for fighting the BBEG tomorrow, so the whole argument is a little pointless here. I can't always impose time limits without them feeling contrived, after all. At this point it doesn't really matter, the challenge is going to be going down the gutter anyway. My intention is to have boss fights challenge most average parties, not to completely solve the martial/caster disparity. If I want to do that, I'll play Path of War and Spheres of Power.
PS: my goal isn't to say that you're wrong, or that 15 PB is bad (though it's not my style). I'm just trying to argue that it's actually a very valid GMing style to not care so much about making sure all the minor battles aren't easy, while actually caring about keeping the final battle tough.
Just a note: Rope Trick is not safe anymore, not like it was in 3.5. Just ask my players what happened when they used Rope Trick in a dungeon and the wandering monsters hit them in their sleep. (Several fatalities on that one.)
Mostly off-topic, but anyone who is really worried about massive PC buffing (especially before meeting the boss) might want to do a Pathfinder conversion of this monster.
Mostly off-topic, but anyone who is really worried about massive PC buffing (especially before meeting the boss) might want to do a Pathfinder conversion of this monster.
That would get really annoying, and is not much better than, "your magic just stopped working", if it is the commmon solution.
As well I've played RotRl and 15 pt buy is playing that AP in hard mode. I've run a several APs and 20 pt buy works better, results in fewer TPKs.
Now with Horror Adventures book, well 15 pt buy might not be that bad as weaker character are easier to get that fear.
I can definitely agree with the last one. For me, something like Strange Aeons should not be played with very high PB. Wrath of the Righteous, on the other hand...
Hmm, what point buy would people here recommend for each path - or at least those you played?
As well I've played RotRl and 15 pt buy is playing that AP in hard mode. I've run a several APs and 20 pt buy works better, results in fewer TPKs.
Now with Horror Adventures book, well 15 pt buy might not be that bad as weaker character are easier to get that fear.
I can definitely agree with the last one. For me, something like Strange Aeons should not be played with very high PB. Wrath of the Righteous, on the other hand...
Hmm, what point buy would people here recommend for each path - or at least those you played?
In the current game of Carrion Crown, I am allowing 25, but the players don't really push the optimization(tactics or powerful builds) bar too high, and they all have characters which are decent to good in more than one area, and not hyperspecialized characters.
Normally I use 20, but for other GM's I would suggest looking at several factors vs me just saying what they should recommend.
How much customization do you like for the party to have when making a character?
How difficult will the AP be considering how they tend to play?
How good are they at combat? This is usually a combination of tactics and the ability to make a character.
How much are you willing and able to adjust the game if they struggle or start to mudstomp the AP?
I don't have the details of the encounter (though I know it wasn't a cleric, but a demon with an SLA), but I clearly remember being paralyzed after failing the save. By the way, the character creation rules for that campaign are very generous (25-point buy, 75% HP, hero points, mythic - rank 3 at the time of that encounter), but I'm certain the DM also adjusts the encounters to make them more challenging (which he would probably do even with more standard character creation rules, since we're 5 players). And he's doing a wonderful job of it (he's making WotR tough for a bunch of OP characters).Level+5 = CR+4 in the case of creatures with no racial HD and class levels.
Create BBEG with PC levels, such as a Human with 14 levels in Cleric, the CR is level-1 = 13.Thus, to meet level+5 you generally need CR+4 (in the case of clerics).
That is why every group should have scrolls of remove paralysis by the time they will be facing things that reliably paralyze them.
Seriously, there are very few effects that a toolbox scroll doesn't fix and by the time you are hitting spells like Blasphemy you should have a decent number of them in your group. :)
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My point is...you don't need high PB to deal with the majority of the problems that are thrown at you. Adequate preparation will also suffice.
My opinion on 15 point buy varies, but it is definitely something noticable about how limiting it is compared to the higher point buys with the complete lack of most MAD characters in both my repetoire of back-ups and characters I have played. It is either SAD casters or Strength two-handed martials with godawful Charisma, and if they need Charisma, they are uneducated as hell because they definitely have to dump Int.
15 point buy cripples variety, and I do not honestly believe anyone who plays MAD classes and claimed they had a good time of it, because I would suspect either their game was less than deadly, or they min-maxed the f@!% out of their stats just to keep up.
I don't particularly feel the need to min-max, I just want a bit more variety and for my character to match the fantasy. I don't really play my stats for that very reason, because if I did, I'd be completely unable to contribute meaningfully in ways I enjoy playing, but then if I wanted my stats to match, I know I am weakening my character severely enough that I might not be making a meaningful contribution.
It isn't even about having a 'flawed hero'. The flaws are predictable because you HAVE to make mechanically sound choices at this point-buy. And even further, you can be a flawed hero in a hell of a lot more impactful and interesting ways rather than 'belches every single word they speak and doesn't care to bathe' to 'barely knows anything about their own suburb, let alone anything outside of a very precise set of skills, and believes fire is magic'. And people claim the GM will probably balance things to be less deadly, but I equally don't believe that for a second either. I don't want a less deadly experience either. I just want a character who can fight well, and talk to people in a meaningful capacity or contribute to interactions. I don't want to have the casters do all the RP, but that is what happens with the mechanics as is. And probably what contributes do much to people disliking martials.
Basically, I find it a bit too harsh on martials only. I am seeing it in a few other games I play (and run, actually, as I have used 15 point buy as that is what I was introduced on and only recently got to deviate from in a small capacity) and having a higher point buy in at least one game has been a blessing because now not only do I not mechanically suffer to make my stats match my character concept, but I can point at my sheet and say 'Yes, I can do X, let me at the task'.
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Garbage-Tier Waifu,
MAD 15pb: 14, 14, 14, 12, 10, 10, 8
MAD 20pb: 16, 14, 14, 12, 10, 10, 8
MAD 25pb: 16, 16, 14, 12, 10, 10, 8
We are talking about a +1 in one or two stats over 15 PB. This is not 2nd edition where you needed very high ability scores to qualify for certain MAD classes.
I think the problem here is that people are expecting that +4 or +5 is a minimum ability score modifier for a successful 1st level character when in fact the system is not based on that.
A Paladin with an array of 14(16 w/race)STR, 12DEX, 14CON, 10INT, 8WIS, and 14CHA is very functional.
Frankly, I doubt that there is a MAD character that wouldn't do just fine in any Pathfinder AP using that array.
Garbage-Tier Waifu,
MAD 15pb: 14, 14, 14, 12, 10, 10, 8
MAD 20pb: 16, 14, 14, 12, 10, 10, 8
MAD 25pb: 16, 16, 14, 12, 10, 10, 8We are talking about a +1 in one or two stats over 15 PB. This is not 2nd edition where you needed very high ability scores to qualify for certain MAD classes.
I think the problem here is that people are expecting that +4 or +5 is a minimum ability score modifier for a successful 1st level character when in fact the system is not based on that.
A Paladin with an array of 14(16 w/race)STR, 12DEX, 14CON, 10INT, 8WIS, and 14CHA is very functional.
Frankly, I doubt that there is a MAD character that wouldn't do just fine in any Pathfinder AP using that array.
My complaint was never that a MAD character is unplayable, or that a MAD character had to have a +4 in their main stat after racials. What I am saying is that for these MAD characters to function at a level where they won't suffer, they have to make way heavier sacrifices in comparison to other classes to even remain on par with them, and thus they are utterly predictably built and they have zero room to deviate, even for flavour, because every +1 is weighted far heavier for them than other classes. Not to mention, if people strongly encourage playing your stats, then most MAD classes are extremely uninterative out of fighting people.
And using Paladin is a bit disengenuous when they get the ability to use their secondary stat in multiple areas, getting far more from their stat investments than most other classes. They get Charisma to their saves, as well as a bonus to their attack rolls and to their AC during Smite Evil. Not to mention they get to use medium and heavy armour. In reality, they are not MAD at all. They inherently balance out by their features alone and very fast.
No, it wasn't disingenuous, it is the classic example of a MAD class. I even stated that I doubt any MAD character would be that way but if you would like to provide an example of a different MAD class that would be harmed by 15PB then please do.
As for SAD characters gaining better benefit, maybe, but not by much.
Assuming SAD characters are not going to screw themselves in areas that are not primary such as Con/Dex/Wis (which any GM will make them pay for) then we have the following:
SAD 15pb: 16, 12, 12, 12, 10, 9
SAD 20pb: 17, 14, 12, 12, 10, 8
SAD 25pb: 18, 14, 12, 12, 10, 9
So for 15pb they have a +1 above MAD.
I don't see how this is earth shattering. In fact, if we look at the difference between MAD and SAD at 25pb we see that it is still +1.
Now, someone could drop ability scores in order to buff up that primary ability score but frankly, it is cheaper to do that at lower values thus the disparity is the same or even favors MAD.
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Why does every race/class combination need to be equally viable?or even viable at all?
Do you play a lot of Commoners?
Garbage-Tier Waifu,
MAD 15pb: 14, 14, 14, 12, 10, 10, 8
MAD 20pb: 16, 14, 14, 12, 10, 10, 8
MAD 25pb: 16, 16, 14, 12, 10, 10, 8We are talking about a +1 in one or two stats over 15 PB. This is not 2nd edition where you needed very high ability scores to qualify for certain MAD classes.
No, your stats are simply FAR more important to the survivability and combat prowess of your character than they were in 2nd edition. Your saving throws are modified by them, the DC's of your spells are modified them, your ability to hit an enemy is modified by them far more than it was in 2nd edition, your skill options are modified by them, your initiative is modified by them, and your hitpoints are modified by them far more than they were in 2nd editon.
Comparisons to minimum to enter class in 2nd edition are pretty bogus. There isn't a hard line that you cant cross anymore, its just a soft line that makes you way less capable than the SAD classes in the party.
Why does every race/class combination need to be equally viable?or even viable at all?I personally hate feeling limited by my class's required stats and being punished for "choosing the wrong race." That's what I don't like about 15 point buy. If you want to make something good you have to use one of the races that gives the right stat bonuses or you're going to have to dump a bunch of stats. What if i want my elven tanky fighter to be smart/charismatic/not a brain dead idiot with a big stick? I can't because all my points have to be forced into my con and strength. With 15 point buy I can't really do that without gimping myself. 25 point buy ensures that any race/class combination is going to work just fine.
Hmmm so this turned into me talking about why 15 point buy does not appeal to me instead....Whatever, I'll post it anyway.
I'm totally sympathetic to the idea that it's kind of lame that the rules disincentivize various class/race combinations, like Elven Fighters, Halfling Barbarians, or Dwarven Bards. But I'm not sure changing from a 15 to a 25 PB changes that -- a Halfling Barbarian is still going to be significantly disadvantaged relative to a Half-Orc Barbarian given a 25 PB.
What you need to do in order to make unusual class/race combinations viable, I think, is to offer the option of not taking the usual stat adjustments. For example, offering players a choice like this:
(1) X point-buy (with usual racial stat adjustments),
or
(2) X+10 point-buy (without racial stat adjustments).
That will make something like a Halfling Barbarian completely viable. It's true that a Half-Orc Barbarian can still get a 20 strength (using the first option), while a Halfling Barbarian can "only" get up to a 18 strength (using the second option). But a Halfling Barbarian built using the second option will get a batch of extra points to spread around to compensate.
You're right, of course, that they don't have to be.
But there are presumably lots of (say) Halfling Fighters and Dwarven Bards in Golarion. And one might dislike the fact that even though there are many such characters, there's a strong disincentive to actually playing one.
Likewise, there are various flavor reasons why one might want to (say) play a Dwarven Bard or an Elven Kineticist. And, again, one might dislike the fact that there's such a strong disincentive to playing the character you may have flavor reasons for wanting to play.
But, of course, this is all a matter of taste. If you (as DM) don't mind the relative homogeneity in class/race combinations that your players pick, or you (as a player) don't sometimes find this to uncomfortably constrain the kinds of characters you can make, then you're in luck! The standard character creation rules cater to your tastes.
If, on the other hand, you're like me, or like The Guy With A Face, then you might prefer the option of an alternate character creation system which is a little more flexible.
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Wrath of the Righteous really, really doesn't need more than 15 PB. You could go with 0 PB and characters would be one-shotting bosses as written.
(This is not a complaint, my players had a lot of fun curb-stomping the opposition)
I can confirm this. We played WotR with 10 point buy and it was still effortless.
My cleric started with a 16 Str after racial modifiers and would have ended with a 44 had we finished (real life stuff got in the way - we were all having a blast, GM included.)
Now I won't deny a certain preference for powerful characters, but it is less to do with power gaming and just what I'm coming to find from other forum posts is a vastly different mindset about the game. To me 15 point buy represents "unheroic" characters, average, normal, everyday people who happen to be thrust into a fantastic adventure. They usually have some manner of negative modifier or two, something that has always been a big deterrent to me, and some people seem to very much enjoy roleplaying these types of characters.
I however just never understood the appeal, after all the game is about fantasy and heroes aren't average people most of the time. 15 point buy feels...strange. The massive weaknesses in the character feel less like 'flaws' and more like plain old hindrances on the game. I don't often have any stat below a 12, mainly because I always imagined the heroes of the story are all just better then the rest in everyday aspects.
I think you've answered your own question, really. It's about preferences.
For me the game isn't about heroes who are "all just better than the rest in everyday aspects" it's about ordinary people stepping up and doing great deeds (becoming extraordinary people in the process, but beginning as nothing special).
To attempt to answer the question of "why" I like that is difficult - I suppose it's that it's more impressive to me if you triumph over great odds that 'should' have overcome the ordinary joe blow you are. If you were inherently born for greatness, it doesn't seem such an achievement to me if you then go on to do great things - that's what you were supposed to do! :)
Ultimately though, it's purely aethetics. I don't really like murder mysteries. It's not that I think they're bad it's just not a story I find interesting. Similarly with relatively high-power games.
Completely irrelevant comment?Why does every race/class combination need to be equally viable?or even viable at all?Do you play a lot of Commoners?
Not totally irrelevant . . . .
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Why does every race/class combination need to be equally viable?or even viable at all?I personally hate feeling limited by my class's required stats and being punished for "choosing the wrong race." That's what I don't like about 15 point buy. If you want to make something good you have to use one of the races that gives the right stat bonuses or you're going to have to dump a bunch of stats. What if i want my elven tanky fighter to be smart/charismatic/not a brain dead idiot with a big stick? I can't because all my points have to be forced into my con and strength. With 15 point buy I can't really do that without gimping myself. 25 point buy ensures that any race/class combination is going to work just fine.
Hmmm so this turned into me talking about why 15 point buy does not appeal to me instead....Whatever, I'll post it anyway.
I'm totally sympathetic to the idea that it's kind of lame that the rules disincentivize various class/race combinations, like Elven Fighters, Halfling Barbarians, or Dwarven Bards. But I'm not sure changing from a 15 to a 25 PB changes that -- a Halfling Barbarian is still going to be significantly disadvantaged relative to a Half-Orc Barbarian given a 25 PB.
What you need to do in order to make unusual class/race combinations viable, I think, is to offer the option of not taking the usual stat adjustments. For example, offering players a choice like this:
(1) X point-buy (with usual racial stat adjustments),
or
(2) X+10 point-buy (without racial stat adjustments).
That will make something like a Halfling Barbarian completely viable. It's true that a Half-Orc Barbarian can still get a 20 strength (using the first option), while a Halfling Barbarian can "only" get up to a 18 strength (using the second option). But a Halfling Barbarian built using the second option will get a batch of extra points to spread around to compensate.
I agree they don't need to be equal, but viable on the forums means you are not dead weight in most conversations. If that is what you meant then being viable means you actually get to not die, and not hold the party down.
My point is...you don't need high PB to deal with the majority of the problems that are thrown at you. Adequate preparation will also suffice.Adequate preparation appears to have a very simple definition. Have lots of spells.
In scroll form, yes although there are a number of non-spell options that help.
Garbage-Tier Waifu,
MAD 15pb: 14, 14, 14, 12, 10, 10, 8
MAD 20pb: 16, 14, 14, 12, 10, 10, 8
MAD 25pb: 16, 16, 14, 12, 10, 10, 8We are talking about a +1 in one or two stats over 15 PB. This is not 2nd edition where you needed very high ability scores to qualify for certain MAD classes.
No, your stats are simply FAR more important to the survivability and combat prowess of your character than they were in 2nd edition. Your saving throws are modified by them, the DC's of your spells are modified them, your ability to hit an enemy is modified by them far more than it was in 2nd edition, your skill options are modified by them, your initiative is modified by them, and your hitpoints are modified by them far more than they were in 2nd editon.
Comparisons to minimum to enter class in 2nd edition are pretty bogus. There isn't a hard line that you cant cross anymore, its just a soft line that makes you way less capable than the SAD classes in the party.
And as I pointed out, that isn't actually the case. Sure, you have +1 less in your primary stat than a SAD class, but you also have +1 in another two stats that they don't have. That actually makes you a far more rounded character and I usually find that to be far more survivable than someone who focuses all their point buy on one stat.
But, feel free to point out any MAD class which does not benefit from having a 15PB with a total +mod of +6 vs a SAD character's +5 (of course, pre-race mods).
Completely irrelevant comment?Why does every race/class combination need to be equally viable?or even viable at all?Do you play a lot of Commoners?
Not so, if you're overnerfed by insufficient point buy options (not enough points), you might end up being more suited to being a commoner than any of the actual player classes...
EDIT Frack, ninja'ed
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It appeals to me because it tells me upfront what games I don't want to be in.
{. . .}
And as I pointed out, that isn't actually the case. Sure, you have +1 less in your primary stat than a SAD class, but you also have +1 in another two stats that they don't have. That actually makes you a far more rounded character and I usually find that to be far more survivable than someone who focuses all their point buy on one stat.But, feel free to point out any MAD class which does not benefit from having a 15PB with a total +mod of +6 vs a SAD character's +5 (of course, pre-race mods).
Remember that it's not just the bonuses, it's also feat prerequisites that include high minimum ability scores, where 1 ability score point (not bonus) can make the difference between qualifying and not qualifying. Yes, class features such as Ranger Combat Style, Monk Bonus Feats, and Brawler's Cunning let you bypass this in certain builds, and recent feats such as Dirty Fighting help a bit, but even so, the number of possible (never mind viable) MAD builds is cut down at lower point buy.
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In my current game I wrote up a bunch of 3-stat, 11 point buy arrays (e.g. 14,13,13 or 17,10,8).
I wrote them all on pieces of carboard and put them in a bag. Each player picked out 3, kept the two they preferred and allocated the stats accordingly.
So everyone had 'random' stats, but everyone was 22 point buy. Nobody got quite the stats they wanted, and everyone had at least a couple of flawed stats, which as a GM I always like to see.
It seemed to work out pretty well, and the party are happy that nobody is over or underpowered, and everyone has a few interesting stat quirks to deal with as they level up.
{. . .}
And as I pointed out, that isn't actually the case. Sure, you have +1 less in your primary stat than a SAD class, but you also have +1 in another two stats that they don't have. That actually makes you a far more rounded character and I usually find that to be far more survivable than someone who focuses all their point buy on one stat.But, feel free to point out any MAD class which does not benefit from having a 15PB with a total +mod of +6 vs a SAD character's +5 (of course, pre-race mods).
Remember that it's not just the bonuses, it's also feat prerequisites that include high minimum ability scores, where 1 ability score point (not bonus) can make the difference between qualifying and not qualifying. Yes, class features such as Ranger Combat Style, Monk Bonus Feats, and Brawler's Cunning let you bypass this in certain builds, and recent feats such as Dirty Fighting help a bit, but even so, the number of possible (never mind viable) MAD builds is cut down at lower point buy.
And as I pointed out earlier in this thread, that is actually not the case. Even with 15pb and a MAD character you can easily meet the requirements.
Level 1: 14+2(racial) = 16.
Level 4: 14+2(racial)+1(level) = 17
Level 8: 14+2(racial)+2(level) = 18
Level 12: 14+2(racial)+3(level) = 19
That will meet the requirements of just about any feat and that doesn't even include things like magic items bumping up your ability scores.
Simply put, 15pb doesn't make a difference to feat requirements.