It seems odd and backwards for a GM to prohibit a character from making a choice for flavor/concept reasons that makes their character less effective, however.
I see no reason to prohibit a Magus who wants to be Captain Caveman, from choosing a club has his "chosen weapon". That simply means that he's opted out of choosing a martial or exotic weapon.
It seems odd and backwards for a GM to prohibit a character from making a choice for flavor/concept reasons that makes their character less effective, however.
Nobody is arguing against a GM handwaving RAW at a home game.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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It seems odd and backwards for a GM to prohibit a character from making a choice for flavor/concept reasons that makes their character less effective, however.Nobody is arguing against a GM handwaving RAW at a home game.
+1
I'm not sure why it's relevant to bring up deviating from RAW as we all know it's a GMs prerogative to do so.
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Most of the people in this thread seem hung up on the idea that the opposite of "single martial or exotic melee weapon" is "single simple melee weapon." But that's not the case at all. What if a gunslinger wants to dip into kensai magus, and use a gun as his "chosen weapon"? Is it so bizarre to imagine that he can (via Canny Defense) deflect blows with a musket?
+1 FAQ request
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Most of the people in this thread seem hung up on the idea that the opposite of "single martial or exotic melee weapon" is "single simple melee weapon." But that's not the case at all. What if a gunslinger wants to dip into kensai magus, and use a gun as his "chosen weapon"? Is it so bizarre to imagine that he can (via Canny Defense) deflect blows with a musket?
+1 FAQ request
*emphasis added
Aren't all guns classified as ranged weapons?
After reading a few posts I went back to the original text. Is states a single marital or exotic melee weapon of his choice. Does that mean said Magus is only proficient in that single weapon, not with all weapons of that type?
For example, lvl 1 magus starts the game with a normal everyday longsword. He then finds a Vorpal longsword on his travels. Is he proficient with the vorpal longsword? I realize they are the same type of weapon, but that isn't the weapon he selected as his chosen weapon.
After reading a few posts I went back to the original text. Is states a single marital or exotic melee weapon of his choice. Does that mean said Magus is only proficient in that single weapon, not with all weapons of that type?
For example, lvl 1 magus starts the game with a normal everyday longsword. He then finds a Vorpal longsword on his travels. Is he proficient with the vorpal longsword? I realize they are the same type of weapon, but that isn't the weapon he selected as his chosen weapon.
You would have Martial Weapon Proficiency (longsword) so you could use any longsword. They would all qualify as your chosen weapon. This isn't like a Bonded Object which ties you to that individual item. Look at the wording of Heirloom Weapon as an example of an ability that limits you to proficiency with one specific item.
Most of the people in this thread seem hung up on the idea that the opposite of "single martial or exotic melee weapon" is "single simple melee weapon." But that's not the case at all. What if a gunslinger wants to dip into kensai magus, and use a gun as his "chosen weapon"? Is it so bizarre to imagine that he can (via Canny Defense) deflect blows with a musket?
+1 FAQ request
*emphasis added
Aren't all guns classified as ranged weapons?
Dagger pistols are treated as both a dagger and a pistol. Sword cane pistols are treated as both a sword cane and a coat pistol. Axe muskets are both battleaxe and musket, and warhammer muskets are both warhammer and musket.
The issue, of course, is that all of these could effectively still be ruled as ranged weapons, which locks them out of kensai's choice. You could possibly try to work around this by choosing a sword cane, a battleaxe, or a warhammer as your kensai weapon, but then does that allow the musket part of the listed weapons to function with the kensai's class features, or would they only work if you're using them in their melee function?
A similar question arises regarding weapons that are listed as ranged, but can be used as melee weapons (such as the chakram or hunga munga). If these can be chosen, and the kensai class features function with them when thrown, suddenly the crystal chakram becomes an attractive choice. They can be enchanted as ammunition, allowing a whole batch to benefit from a single casting of longshot or returning weapon, though there would need to be some way to prevent them from shattering on contact (which I don't believe reinforce armaments can technically do).
Most of the people in this thread seem hung up on the idea that the opposite of "single martial or exotic melee weapon" is "single simple melee weapon." But that's not the case at all. What if a gunslinger wants to dip into kensai magus, and use a gun as his "chosen weapon"? Is it so bizarre to imagine that he can (via Canny Defense) deflect blows with a musket?
+1 FAQ request
*emphasis added
Aren't all guns classified as ranged weapons?
Yes. My point was exactly that. The weapon a kensai magus chooses to be proficient with has to be a melee weapon-- but nowhere in the kensai magus's other abilities does it specify melee attacks, or the idea that he's using a melee weapon.
Yes. My point was exactly that. The weapon a kensai magus chooses to be proficient with has to be a melee weapon-- but nowhere in the kensai magus's other abilities does it specify melee attacks, or the idea that he's using a melee weapon.Most of the people in this thread seem hung up on the idea that the opposite of "single martial or exotic melee weapon" is "single simple melee weapon." But that's not the case at all. What if a gunslinger wants to dip into kensai magus, and use a gun as his "chosen weapon"? Is it so bizarre to imagine that he can (via Canny Defense) deflect blows with a musket?
+1 FAQ request
*emphasis added
Aren't all guns classified as ranged weapons?
That's why i like Starknife or other throwing weapons with a Kensai.
Isn't the stance that the chosen weapon isn't necessarily the chosen weapon self-defeating? It's denying one implication (that all instances of "chosen weapon" are referring to the same weapon) to uphold a second (that Uncanny Defense allows you to make a second, unrelated choice), isn't it?
Except that's not what we're saying. The Kensai gets two abilities a Weapon proficiency and a chosen weapon. You're saying they're the same thing, we're saying they're not, they are two separate. A fighter gets access to martial weapons, does that mean he can't use weapon focus on a club?
EDIT:
Let's take it a step further, let's say I'm an Elf, does that mean I can't chose Rapier or longsword because I'm already proficient in it?
Isn't the stance that the chosen weapon isn't necessarily the chosen weapon self-defeating? It's denying one implication (that all instances of "chosen weapon" are referring to the same weapon) to uphold a second (that Uncanny Defense allows you to make a second, unrelated choice), isn't it?Except that's not what we're saying. The Kensai gets two abilities a Weapon proficiency and a chosen weapon. You're saying they're the same thing, we're saying they're not, they are two separate.
That is, in fact, precisely what you are saying.
At no time does a Kensai gain an ability called "chosen weapon." Several abilities mention a chosen weapon, however. The only time a Kensai is given the option to choose a weapon is under the Weapon and Armor Proficiency section of the class description. Therefore, either that weapon is the chosen weapon for all class features, or there is no chosen weapon. The "third" option is based on the convoluted logic that the phrase "chosen weapon" implicitly entitles you to choose a weapon independent of the weapon you already chose when explicitly told to choose a weapon. So you are denying the implication that chosen weapon refers to the weapon you chose earlier, in favor of the implication that chosen weapon means you get to choose a weapon whenever it appears.Which is exactly what I said.
A fighter gets access to martial weapons, does that mean he can't use weapon focus on a club?
Who said anything that would remotely suggest to you that answer to this question would be anything other than "no, of course not," or that said answer would be in any way relevant to your point?
EDIT:
Let's take it a step further, let's say I'm an Elf, does that mean I can't chose Rapier or longsword because I'm already proficient in it?
It says "a single martial or exotic melee weapon of his choice," not "a single martial or exotic melee weapon of his choice he is not already proficient with." Again, how is this even tangentially related to the issue at hand? Are you just arguing the consequent?
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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logic that the phrase "chosen weapon" implicitly entitles you to choose a weapon independent of the weapon you already chose when explicitly told to choose a weapon
This is the whole thing I don't understand.
I genuinely don't understand how a class that makes you choose a weapon (in the weapon and armor) then uses your chosen weapon could be taken any other way than the proficiency chosen weapon is the chosen weapon.
EDIT:
Let's take it a step further, let's say I'm an Elf, does that mean I can't chose Rapier or longsword because I'm already proficient in it?
The character can still choose to use their proficiency to choose rapier. It won't do anything in and of itself, but will designate rapier as the elf's chosen weapon.
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The character can still choose to use their proficiency to choose rapier. It won't do anything in and of itself, but will designate rapier as the elf's chosen weapon.
EDIT:
Let's take it a step further, let's say I'm an Elf, does that mean I can't chose Rapier or longsword because I'm already proficient in it?
You see the problem is that people are saying the martial or exotic weapon chosen in the proficiency section HAS to be the Kensai's "chosen weapon". An Elf can't take Rapier as his proficiency from his class proficiency because he's already proficient.
That means an Elf Kensai is proficient in Longsword, Rapier, All Simple Weapons, and gets one more Exotic or Martial proficiency of their choice, and according to some, that last unnamed proficiency HAS to be the Kensai's chosen weapon, and it can't be Rapier or Longsword because they are already proficient in those.
If you don't agree with the above (and by "you" I mean anyone who thinks a Kensai can't choose a simple weapon), then you're completely making stuff up, because no where else is there any mention of exotic or martial weapon.
That is, in fact, precisely what you are saying.
No it in fact isn't. The problem is your taken what the Kensai is proficient in and trying to apply that to every ability they ever get. A Kensai is JUST as proficient in Simple Weapons.
And you're right, there isn't a specific ability that says Chosen Weapon, so lets look at the fist ability that call it out:
Canny Defense: At 1st level, when a kensai is wielding his chosen weapon, he gains the canny defense ability. This is identical to the duelist prestige class ability of the same name, save that his chosen weapon may be of any type.
Any type, not any martial or exotic, any type. His chosen weapon is whatever he takes Weapon Focus in, and has nothing to do with his proficiencies.
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That is, in fact, precisely what you are saying.No it in fact isn't.
YES IT LITERALLY IS! You keep saying "We aren't saying that." Then go on to describe your position as exactly what I'm saying it is.
"Are you making cookies?"
"No, I'm making cookies."
"Oh, so you ARE making cookies."
"NO! What are you, deaf! I told you, I'm not making cookies. I'm MAKING COOKIES."
You are DENYING the implication that chosen weapon refers to the weapon you chose. You are. That's what you are doing.
You are FAVORING the implication that phrase "chosen weapon" somehow give you the ability to chose a weapon. That's what you are doing.
Unless you SOMEHOW think it's NOT an implication, but it is, because you are never explicitly told to make a choice, just told that you've already made one. Even assuming you're correct (and you aren't) you are still gaining a chosen weapon by implication.
An Elf can't take Rapier as his proficiency from his class proficiency because he's already proficient.
Why not? What rules prevent this? It's almost as if you're making stuff up.
If you don't agree with the above (and by "you" I mean anyone who thinks a Kensai can't choose a simple weapon), then you're completely making stuff up,
It would help if the above wasn't complete nonsense based on insane troll logic. If you think you get a pick a weapon whenever you want, YOU are the one who is "making stuff up." The rules don't say what you want them to say.
The problem is your taken what the Kensai is proficient in and trying to apply that to every ability they ever get.
Because the only other possible explanation is that the Kensai gains NO BENEFIT from any other class feature that mentions a "chosen weapon." Those abilities do not say to choose a weapon, therefore you don't get to choose a weapon.
I'll agree that, in practice, I would have no qualms in allowing a Kensai to choose pretty much any melee weapon he or she wanted. It seems a particularly stupid restriction to me. That doesn't change the rules one iota.
I'm thinking racial proficiency isn't considered for the kensai, since racial proficiency is a different thing than a class's weapon proficiency, just like how one class's proficiencies might overlap one another. In this case, you're picking a certain weapon to be part of the class's proficiencies, so it's allowed to overlap those gained from your race and other classes. Otherwise, you'd be locked into exoitic weapons for a kensai who already has a level in fighter.
On that note, the closest analogy I can see here is the weapon master fighter. All of their abilities refer to a chosen weapon but none of them specifically tell you to choose one. The flavor text for weapon master, however, does. The weapon master, however, can literally choose any weapon this way, even one they aren't proficient with.
What I wonder is, is it possible this was the intent? That the kensai basically be a magus version of a weapon master, and that the weapon proficiency is meant to save them from needing to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency if their chosen weapon is exotic (considering that magi get far fewer bonus feats than fighters).
None of this actually solves this whole debate, granted, but it just seems the most logical path toward finding the author's intent for the kensai.
The character can still choose to use their proficiency to choose rapier. It won't do anything in and of itself, but will designate rapier as the elf's chosen weapon.
EDIT:
Let's take it a step further, let's say I'm an Elf, does that mean I can't chose Rapier or longsword because I'm already proficient in it?You see the problem is that people are saying the martial or exotic weapon chosen in the proficiency section HAS to be the Kensai's "chosen weapon". An Elf can't take Rapier as his proficiency from his class proficiency because he's already proficient.
That means an Elf Kensai is proficient in Longsword, Rapier, All Simple Weapons, and gets one more Exotic or Martial proficiency of their choice, and according to some, that last unnamed proficiency HAS to be the Kensai's chosen weapon, and it can't be Rapier or Longsword because they are already proficient in those.
If you don't agree with the above (and by "you" I mean anyone who thinks a Kensai can't choose a simple weapon), then you're completely making stuff up, because no where else is there any mention of exotic or martial weapon.
An Elf Kensai can most certainly choose a longsword or rapier to be their chosen weapon. That means however that that IS their choice, they don't get to choose another marital or exotic weapon for funsies sake. Their chosen weapon is the one they have chosen to focus on, be it martial, exotic, or simple.
The character can still choose to use their proficiency to choose rapier. It won't do anything in and of itself, but will designate rapier as the elf's chosen weapon.
EDIT:
Let's take it a step further, let's say I'm an Elf, does that mean I can't chose Rapier or longsword because I'm already proficient in it?You see the problem is that people are saying the martial or exotic weapon chosen in the proficiency section HAS to be the Kensai's "chosen weapon". An Elf can't take Rapier as his proficiency from his class proficiency because he's already proficient.
That means an Elf Kensai is proficient in Longsword, Rapier, All Simple Weapons, and gets one more Exotic or Martial proficiency of their choice, and according to some, that last unnamed proficiency HAS to be the Kensai's chosen weapon, and it can't be Rapier or Longsword because they are already proficient in those.
If you don't agree with the above (and by "you" I mean anyone who thinks a Kensai can't choose a simple weapon), then you're completely making stuff up, because no where else is there any mention of exotic or martial weapon.
If you can show any other mechanic where the kensai makes a choice, we'll all agree you can choose a simple weapon.
As stands, the free martial/exotic weapon is the only mechanism by which the kensai actually makes a choice in weapons.
As for the elf, there are no shortage of instances in the game by which a character gains the same proficiency multiple times. The elf is free to choose martial weapon proficiency: rapier. Should he ever be reincarnated as an orc, he'll still have proficiency.
So, something interesting I noticed on Archives of Nethys is that apparently javelins are listed as both simple and martial. On the PFSRD they're listed as simple, while there's a variant of them that is listed as exotic (shrillshaft javelins), although the flavor text states they're single use only, so they probably are a bad choice here. In any case, I presume that some books list them as simple, while others list them as martial.
I can only guess that the main reason one might want a simple weapon for a kensai is for javelins, since you can combine card caster and kensai archetypes, and there's several ways to drastically increase your range on a javelin to the point that it's comparable to a crossbow, and this would allow you excessive distance on touch ranged spells via spellstrike fairly early (whereas an eldritch archer or myrmidon would need to wait until 9th to deliver touch-range spells at a distance with spellstrikes, and 12th to do so with their weapon's range).
So this further muddies things up as, depending upon the rulebook you're sourcing, you could, in fact, select javelins for the kensai as a martial weapon. Furthermore, you could have a javelin with an amentum wound about it, which counts any javelin as a martial weapon (though you'd need a large number of amentum-wound javelins to really make use of this). It is questionable if one can select it as a melee weapon, since it's technically a ranged weapon, but it allows melee attacks with it. However, if a chakram is allowed in this way, a javelin should be as well, so it's still worth it to check with your GM regardless, IMO.
To me this seems silly
Look at two things: Game Balance, then RAI
Will Letting him choose his Chosen weapon be a staff unbalance anything? I would say probably not.
What is the RAI/RAW: By the RAW it is questionable, by the RAI it should be ok but the character gives up the free weapon proficiancy, however if it was my game I would probably give him a bonus feat of some nature (Maybe weapon focus?) to make up for it...
I believe the intent was to make it so you could choose any melee weapon you had proficiency with, and you were allowed to choose proficiency in any one martial or exotic weapon if you wanted to. The wording, however, was very poor.
If they had redone it to 'The Kensai may choose any one melee weapon he gained proficiency with as a Kensai' that would solve the issue, and make it perfectly clear that it has to be a weapon he's proficient with as a Kensai.
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Hopefully, in a future reprinting they will revise;
"A kensai is proficient in simple weapons and in a single martial or exotic melee weapon of his choice."
...to something like...
'A kensai chooses one melee weapon to master. He is proficient with this chosen weapon and all simple weapons.'
Given there is no hardcoded rules for the chosen weapon, and all else is otherwise speculatory or inference, and since none of the later features of the Kensai list 'melee attack', just attacks with your chosen weapon, there is nothing stopping you from choosing ranged weapons.
If we want to take this to the opposite logical extreme, since there are no rules to state what your chosen weapon is, or a feature to choose this weapon, just a proficiency which is never called out as particularly special, you never get to choose what your chosen weapon is, thus you cannot benefit from your Kensai as it refers to non-existent rules.
ALSO, look at this!
At 9th level, a kensai adds his Intelligence bonus (minimum 0) on critical hit confirmation rolls with his favored weapon. In addition, the kensai may use his magus levels in place of his base attack bonuses to qualify for Critical Focus and any feat for which it is a prerequisite; these feats apply only with a kensai’s favored weapon.
It changes term usage part way through. The rabbit hole only goes deeper.
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I agree that the wording suggests that simple weapons aren't allowed. This always disappoints me, when I look at the class. Just kinda a silly restriction.
I'd really like to use the the class for a non-divine worshipper of a deity, but most of the deity weapons are simple ("most" seems fair, but I could be wrong).
I really like how the fighter's weapon master archetype can choose any weapon, even non-melee or natural weapons, while this class seems very limited by comparison.
For the sake of understanding, I would like it known I have no issue with a kensai choosing a simple weapon at my table or any other for his chosen weapon. I'm just saying the words don't support it.
So if anything I wouldn't mind that to be changed to incorporate that.
This this this a thousand times this.
The words don't support it...?
The first time the actual words "Chosen Weapon" are used:
At 1st level, when a kensai is wielding his chosen weapon, he gains the canny defense ability. This is identical to the duelist prestige class ability of the same name, save that his chosen weapon may be of any type.
What's confusing about that?
So, something interesting I noticed on Archives of Nethys is that apparently javelins are listed as both simple and martial. On the PFSRD they're listed as simple, while there's a variant of them that is listed as exotic (shrillshaft javelins), although the flavor text states they're single use only, so they probably are a bad choice here. In any case, I presume that some books list them as simple, while others list them as martial.
No, the Archives of Nethys appears to have made a mistake here. The Ranged Tactics Toolbox lists the javelin as a simple weapon, while all of the other sources are hardbacks from the core line whose javelin related content should be in the PRD.
In any case, since the javelin is not designed for melee combat, it would be a poor choice for the primary weapon of a Magus.
Duelists use one handed piercing. Type refers to b/s/P
That's what it refers to.
I thought that too, until I actually reread the Canny Defense ability. While several other Duelist class features require the Duelist to be wielding a light or one handed piercing weapon, Canny Defense simply specifies "a melee weapon". That makes the phrase "save that his chosen weapon may be of any type" completely nonsensical since the chosen weapon does have to be a melee weapon.
So, something interesting I noticed on Archives of Nethys is that apparently javelins are listed as both simple and martial. On the PFSRD they're listed as simple, while there's a variant of them that is listed as exotic (shrillshaft javelins), although the flavor text states they're single use only, so they probably are a bad choice here. In any case, I presume that some books list them as simple, while others list them as martial.No, the Archives of Nethys appears to have made a mistake here. The Ranged Tactics Toolbox lists the javelin as a simple weapon, while all of the other sources are hardbacks from the core line whose javelin related content should be in the PRD.
It isn't exactly a mistake on the part of Nethys; it's just a confusing formatting choice. Javelins are listed as Martial Weapons on the Gladiator Weapons Table in Ultimate Combat. That is clearly because there they are being used as ammunition for an Amentum. You can tell because the Javelin entry has dashes in place of things like Dmg and Range. You are supposed to take those stats from the Amentum entry. On the Martial Weapons table from Nethys, this fact is obscured because the Amentum and Javelin entries are not adjacent due to the alphabetization. But the missing stats are, again, the clue that this Javelin entry is meant to represent ammunition for the Amentum.
In any case, since the javelin is not designed for melee combat, it would be a poor choice for the primary weapon of a Magus.
It certainly isn't a valid choice for a Kensai's Chosen Weapon since javelins and Amentums are both Ranged weapons rather than Melee weapons.
The words don't support it...?
The first time the actual words "Chosen Weapon" are used:
At 1st level, when a kensai is wielding his chosen weapon, he gains the canny defense ability. This is identical to the duelist prestige class ability of the same name, save that his chosen weapon may be of any type.
What's confusing about that?
There's nothing confusing about the wording. What's confusing is how anyone could possibly believe the wording supports the idea that the chosen weapon isn't the weapon the class tells you to choose.
There's nothing confusing about the wording. What's confusing is how anyone could possibly believe the wording supports the idea that the chosen weapon isn't the weapon the class tells you to choose.
Except I'm saying it is the weapon the class tells you to choose. You choose it when you pick your Weapon Focus.
What's really confusing is why you insist on making up rules. There is nothing in the Weapon Proficiency section of the class that tells you what your chosen weapon has to be. There's nothing in the class itself that says you can't choose bastard sword as your proficiency and then choose a weapon you're not even proficient in. There is nothing there that defines it. You are adding all of that all on your own. You think that's the way it's supposed to be, so your making stuff up to support it.
What's really baffling is how you don't see that that extra proficiency was supposed to give you more options not limit them.
By RAW, your chosen weapon is whatever you take Weapon Focus in with the bonus feat, which can even be something you're not proficient in. That's RAW and anything else you're just adding rules that don't exist.
I see no reason to prohibit a Magus who wants to be Captain Caveman, from choosing a club has his "chosen weapon". That simply means that he's opted out of choosing a martial or exotic weapon.
What rules support this? Where are you getting that you can arbitrarily take class features away and that's okay? It's the same as saying "Meh if a paladin doesn't use his deity's favored weapon he can't smite. Sure nothing supports that in the rules, but I think that's the way it should be"
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I blame this confusion to people being bad at English.
"Chosen", in the perfective term, means that some one at some indeterminate but definite point in the past has made a specific choice. The only choice that was made is the one in Weapon Proficiency, ergo, it must refer to this.
Point by point
Except I'm saying it is the weapon the class tells you to choose. You choose it when you pick your Weapon Focus.
The class DOES NOT tell you to choose a weapon to take with Weapon Focus. It merely grants you Weapon Focus(Chosen Weapon) as a bonus feat. Full stop. It unequivocally does NOT grant you the chosen weapon or allow you to make a choice about what that weapon is.
What's really confusing is why you insist on making up rules.
I submit that you are the one making up rules, in insisting that you are allowed to make a choice when the rules don't tell you to.
There is nothing in the Weapon Proficiency section of the class that tells you what your chosen weapon has to be.
There actually is, if only within the context of the weapon that was chosen for the extra Weapon Proficiency that the class grants. The weapon chosen for bonus proficiency must be a martial or exotic melee weapon.
There's nothing in the class itself that says you can't choose bastard sword as your proficiency and then choose a weapon you're not even proficient in. There is nothing there that defines it.
See this is the critical point. There is ALSO nothing that says the Kensai doesn't gain 50/- DR, and a fly speed of 600 ft. So clearly the Kensai gains these things, by your own logic. There is only one place in the entire class you are told to make a choice regarding a weapon. Therefore, you only get to make one choice regarding a weapon.
You are adding all of that all on your own. You think that's the way it's supposed to be, so your making stuff up to support it.
See, you haven't been reading posts. I have said repeatedly, and I'll say again, that I don't agree with the needless restriction on a Kensai's weapon choices. They SHOULD be allowed to chose whatever melee weapon they want. That doesn't magically mean the rules support what I want. I'm not the one trying to twist the rules into something they aren't to support my pet interpretation. That would be you.
What's really baffling is how you don't see that that extra proficiency was supposed to give you more options not limit them.
I'm not at all interested in what it's "supposed" to do, I'm only interested in what it does, and that is limit (needlessly, IMO) Kensai's to martial or exotic weapons.
By RAW, your chosen weapon is whatever you take Weapon Focus in with the bonus feat, which can even be something you're not proficient in.
Totally false. You don't get to make a choice regarding Weapon Focus, so how can it be your chosen weapon?
That's RAW and anything else you're just adding rules that don't exist.
You continue to assert this, and you continue to be wrong. You are demonstrably the one adding rules. Hey I can do it too! By RAW, you can take 10 5-ft steps in a round, that's RAW and if you disagree with me you're making rules up, regardless of what the 5-ft step portion of the Combat section of the CRB says.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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By RAW, your chosen weapon is whatever you take Weapon Focus in with the bonus feat, which can even be something you're not proficient in. That's RAW and anything else you're just adding rules that don't exist.
You are using an incorrect mean of RAW. That is RAT as in rules as twisted.
Primarily used when choosing an awkward interpretation to cause fear, uncertainty and doubt on how a rule works.
Back attcha
The class DOES NOT tell you to choose a weapon to take with Weapon Focus. It merely grants you Weapon Focus(Chosen Weapon) as a bonus feat. Full stop. It unequivocally does NOT grant you the chosen weapon or allow you to make a choice about what that weapon is.
I agree, but since no where else has defined a chosen weapon, this is the first point that it has to be defined. You DO have to choose a weapon, otherwise you wouldn't have a chosen weapon
I submit that you are the one making up rules, in insisting that you are allowed to make a choice when the rules don't tell you to.
I'm only reading what's there, you're reading what's there and then adding to it. Let's look at the sentence again:
A kensai is proficient in simple weapons and in a single martial or exotic melee weapon of his choice.
You seem to think the second half of that sentence has more weight than the first half of that sentence. That sentence could just have easily said in simple weapons and martial weapons, would you still insist that the the chosen weapon had to be a martial weapon? Does the second half of that sentence still hold more weight than the first part?
What's worse is you're saying that if I were an Elf and chose Rapier, I would lose that class benefit. You are taking away class benefits.
There actually is, if only within the context of the weapon that was chosen for the extra Weapon Proficiency that the class grants. The weapon chosen for bonus proficiency must be a martial or exotic melee weapon.
The wording you're looking for isn't actually there. You're assuming that's what is meant, but the actual rule IS NOT THERE.
See this is the critical point. There is ALSO nothing that says the Kensai doesn't gain 50/- DR, and a fly speed of 600 ft. So clearly the Kensai gains these things, by your own logic. There is only one place in the entire class you are told to make a choice regarding a weapon. Therefore, you only get to make one choice regarding a weapon.
Actually your over emphasis on the second part of the weapon proficiency I thought was more critical. I find this funny, because I'm only reading what is actually in the class description. I'm not adding anything to it. You're the one making assumptions and adding limitations not spelled out in the class.
See, you haven't been reading posts. I have said repeatedly, and I'll say again, that I don't agree with the needless restriction on a Kensai's weapon choices. They SHOULD be allowed to chose whatever melee weapon they want. That doesn't magically mean the rules support what I want. I'm not the one trying to twist the rules...
I have read your posts and I have seen you say you don't care. I really think it's funny that you think I'm the one twisting. I am simply reading what's there, and not trying to add what I think they meant.
Now if you really want me to stray a long way from RAI, a very strict reading of the rules, a Kensai could choose a ranged weapon as his chosen weapon.
If we look at Canny Defense:
At 1st level, when a kensai is wielding his chosen weapon, he gains the canny defense ability. This is identical to the duelist prestige class ability of the same name, save that his chosen weapon may be of any type.
As I've pointed out before, it says any type. Then if we look at the Duelist class Canny Defense:
When wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level as a dodge bonus to her Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus.
The only type of weapon listed in that is Melee weapon. That means Ranged Weapons would also apply. Then if you look at that seemingly all defining second half of the sentence you have to choose a melee weapon, so having another class ability say you can use a ranged weapon, proves you don't have to use the given proficiency.
Now I realize that's extremely pedantic and I'm not saying that's what's intended, and normally I would agree with you people do take the rules too far (see abuses to the Whirling Dervish Swashbuckler Archetype), but in this case I think extrapolating the second half of a sentence and make it completely character defining takes things a bit too far in the other direction.
It would be nice if they clarified the wording for the next printing. At the same time they should correct the fact that the Kensai has two different versions of Fighter Training. The Myrmidarch used to have the exact same problem. They corrected it for the Myrmidarch, but somehow overlooked the Kensai.
What rules support this? Where are you getting that you can arbitrarily take class features away and that's okay? It's the same as saying "Meh if a paladin doesn't use his deity's favored weapon he can't smite. Sure nothing supports that in the rules, but I think that's the way it should be"
I see no reason to prohibit a Magus who wants to be Captain Caveman, from choosing a club has his "chosen weapon". That simply means that he's opted out of choosing a martial or exotic weapon.
I'm not the one taking class features away. It's the player who does so by choosing to be Club Captain Caveman, instead of Katana Sword Saint.