I suppose it's good to have a safety clause against pissy control-freak GMs who don't allow players to try anything not specifically called out by the rules...
Still doesn't give any real value to the trip weapon property, though. :P
A Human Bolt-Ace in one of my campaigns took Catch-Off-Guard, Amateur Swashbuckler, and traits to improve improvised weapon usage at 1st level. The result was that she was able to use her crossbow and bolts as back-up melee weapons. Catch Off Guard allowed her to stock-whip without spending grit (albeit also without the secondary benefits of the deed), and because the bolt was treated as a dagger (sans having the 19-20 crit range) she could use it to regain her Grit/Panache (and because it was ammo it could be drawn as a free action).
More than one enemy died a painful death because they assumed that closing into melee range with the Bolt-Ace would prevent her from attacking effectively.
I know its a rogue but the makeshift scrapper archetype uses improvised weapons very well, and can enchant them as well to get around one problem.In my opinion it is one of the stronger archetypes. As since Catch-Off Guard makes it so your enemies are always flat-footed while you are wielding an improvised weapon, you can always be sneak attacking.
Unarmed enemies are flat footed against attack you make with improvised weapons.
Which means you only get the benefit against enemies without a weapon, no natural attacks and who don't have IUS or an equivalent.
I know its a rogue but the makeshift scrapper archetype uses improvised weapons very well, and can enchant them as well to get around one problem.In my opinion it is one of the stronger archetypes. As since Catch-Off Guard makes it so your enemies are always flat-footed while you are wielding an improvised weapon, you can always be sneak attacking.Unarmed enemies are flat footed against attack you make with improvised weapons.
Which means you only get the benefit against enemies without a weapon, no natural attacks and who don't have IUS or an equivalent.
So what I'm hearing is disarm + the feat, or you know just make a pineapple wielding assassin!
I think that the rule against dragging foes into dangerous areas are a major drag (and now the source of a terrible pun). I’m also not sure why Drag and Reposition deserve to be separate maneuvers. Is there a doctrine of “Separate but Useless” in play?
If the Trip weapon property gave you a +2 on Trip attempts that would not only make you less likely to fall down but more likely to succeed. I guess maybe somebody was concerned that Trip was too powerful though. Maybe that's the same reason you can't Trip flying creatures in Pathfinder. Grapple is another combat maneuver that tends towards "Dominant or Useless", but I'm forgetting this is actually a thread about improvised weapons...
@Artfix - The fact that there are a few class abilities which make improvised weapons a bit better doesn’t change my opinion of how they are “in general”. I’m not sure that making improvised weapons as useful as “regular” weapons is something every table would want although Sean K Reynolds’ opinion on water balloon based PCs has apparently changed a bit over the years.
@Fig - I may indeed have seen a movie featuring such a character! My PC was a from an Asian themed nation around Tian Xia and ate with chopsticks but found a use for forks too.
I'm more confused why drag is separate from grapple. One maneuver allows you to grab someone, and move them in a straight line back (or any other direction). The other allows you to grab someone, and move them in a straight line back, except you also don't technically need to be able to grab them, at which point how are you dragging them with no hands free? This maneuver makes no sense! I can see reposition being separate from grapple though as I can see someone repositioning a foe simply through directed attacks & the like. But perhaps that's not enough justification...
I think weapon attributes like trip would be more interesting if they let you make a free (related) attempt on a hit with a melee attack, but no more than one per round. So if you hit someone with a trip weapon, you may make a free trip attempt. If you hit them with a weapon with the impact enchantment, you can make a free bull rush attempt, etc. Probably locked behind a feat.
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I think drag/reposition are supposed to be the quick lockup to maneuver your opponent around the battlefield, whereas grapple is for longer, more restricting maneuvers. No one grapples an opponent to drag them because they want to, they do it because it used to be the only way to actually drag someone behind you.
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I had one player who carried a statue with him instead of a club, and I've seen some people try to game Catch Off-Guard by disarming foes so they're technically 'unarmed', but other than that I've never really seen someone use improvised weapons.
Have you used them in game before? And were they actually used as improvised weapons (i.e., look there's a chair let's hit them with it), or just as a replacement for a normal weapon, like club guy mentioned above?
Early levels, improvised weapons are more impressive than later levels. Magic weapons and such.
CRB has some great improvised options in that list of tools for adventurers. There are also some good traits if you plan to run improvised weapons, but don't want to waste feats on it.
Traits:
Fight for Liberty
Regional
Effect: AoE +2 trait bonus to allies' unarmed and improvised weapon attack rolls.
Freedom Fighter
Regional
Effect: +1 trait bonus on attack rolls with improvised weapons
Humble Beginnings
Regional
Effect: Catch Off Guard as a trait, but only for 1 of from a list of improvised weapons. Boot, bucket, frying pan, mug, rolling pin, spade, or stool.
Improvised Defense
Combat
Effect: Able to use improvised weapons to gain a +1 shield bonus
Preformer's Surprise
Combat
Effect: +1 trait bonus to damage against foes denied their dex bonus, only when attacking with improvised, thrown, or exotic weapons. (Obvious synergy with the Catch Off Guard feat)
Surprise Weapon
Combat
Effect: +2 trait bonus with improvised weapons.
Rough and Ready
Equipment
Effect: No improvised penalty and, instead, a +1 trait bonus to attack with improvised weapons related to profession and craft skills you have 1+ ranks in.
Let's see, my recently deceased necromancer took Profession: Gravedigger, and wielded a Spade (CRB) as their primary weapon. I took the Rough and Ready trait. Wasn't really a combat character, but that +1 to attack and no improvised penalty was pretty useful. If wondering, death was unrelated to improvised weapon use (ally's assault a water elemental, I was healing the ally, and elemental 1-hit killed my PC with a 20, followed by an 18 on the die...).
I built a (Core) Fire Domain Druid that used torches as weapons exclusively. Torches used in this manner are also CRB improvised weapons. The Torch is nifty because they are dirt cheap 1-handed weapons, which are useful to the party anyway, and deal fire damage in addition to normal bludgeoning damage.
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So what I'm hearing is disarm + the feat, or you know just make a pineapple wielding assassin!I know its a rogue but the makeshift scrapper archetype uses improvised weapons very well, and can enchant them as well to get around one problem.In my opinion it is one of the stronger archetypes. As since Catch-Off Guard makes it so your enemies are always flat-footed while you are wielding an improvised weapon, you can always be sneak attacking.Unarmed enemies are flat footed against attack you make with improvised weapons.
Which means you only get the benefit against enemies without a weapon, no natural attacks and who don't have IUS or an equivalent.
Don't forget that stun makes them drop their weapons too.
There are also enchantment spells, which can be very easily used to disarm opponents (like Command).
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Take rough and ready, and then get creative! Take profession undertaker and bash people with a coffin lid! Take craft food, and smash people with ladles! The possibilities are endless!
I've only messed around when I was trying to make a Improvised Weapon character for a game (he was going wield a pillow, don't ask why).
He? You make a pillow fighting character and it's male? That's just plain wrong! Like putting your jam on the smaller side of the slice of bread, or pouring milk before cereal into the bowl!
I've only messed around when I was trying to make a Improvised Weapon character for a game (he was going wield a pillow, don't ask why).He? You make a pillow fighting character and it's male? That's just plain wrong! Like putting your jam on the smaller side of the slice of bread, or pouring milk before cereal into the bowl!
I didn't read through the whole thing, but there is the surprise weapon trait which gives a +2 bonus to attack rolls. The difficulty might be enemy DR, but I could justify an adamantine shovel in a home game. Plus, the flavor is really fun.
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Bloodrager has a few options where all their melee attacks get modified. There are a few prestige classes to overcome DR with melee attacks, too. I think some of the cleric alignment domains can apply magic abilities to improvised weapons too.
Main thing is that actual weapons will always be superior as weapons. Improvised weapons are more fun and easier to acquire, but even the most OP improvised build is going to be found lacking when compared to OP builds for actual weapon users.
So while I think improvised weapons are fun and flavorful, I wouldn't have my main weapon be improvised unless my character's primary role was non-combat (like a cleric, who is healing more than fighting anyway).
I do wish the Wizard's arcane bond could be an improvised weapon...
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Bloodrager has a few options where all their melee attacks get modified. There are a few prestige classes to overcome DR with melee attacks, too. I think some of the cleric alignment domains can apply magic abilities to improvised weapons too.
Main thing is that actual weapons will always be superior as weapons. Improvised weapons are more fun and easier to acquire, but even the most OP improvised build is going to be found lacking when compared to OP builds for actual weapon users.
So while I think improvised weapons are fun and flavorful, I wouldn't have my main weapon be improvised unless my character's primary role was non-combat (like a cleric, who is healing more than fighting anyway).
I do wish the Wizard's arcane bond could be an improvised weapon...
Behold! I shall now channel my wizardly power through this broken wine bottle!
Things to consider with improvised weapons
Arcane Strike is a godsend. Bypasses lots of DR. Carry around items made of Adamantine, Mithral, and Cold Iron. I recommend 3 Frying Pans (AKA fast-acting hypnosis). Now you really only need to worry about DR/Alignment or DR/(GM made something ridiculous). Or DR/- I suppose.
Once you have those in hand try for a class that gives you ways of getting around those last two. Paladin might work, steelbreaker and martial artist both can try (to limited degrees of effectiveness), fighter could go for penetrating strike, brawler could do so on the fly, etc. Might require multiclassing or finding a new way around DR/magic (like magus, spell warrior, arcane duelist, monk of the empty hand, etc).
Only for role playing reasons. They don't work very well.
1. Sorcerer hit PC warrior the head with a frying pan. We were sitting by the campfire and he wanted to shoot random NPCs approaching. Got a 20 there. The only time it worked.
2. Wizard, who didn't carry any weapons got grappled and I assumed that lying on the floor with bad guy on top of him he probably wouldn't cast. Don't remember what I hit him with. Didn't do much. He generally freaked out and used improvised weapons at close range, I knew it wouldn't work but it fit the character.
3. Cleric who started out with no weapons or armor. He used his backpack in the first sessions of Rise of the Runelords to hit goblins. Didn't hit much. Then again, he didn't manage to hit much with any weapon, he just had one later on to look intimidating.
combat scabbard + weapon focus and greater weapon focus in one trait + catch off guard = i don't even have to draw my sword to kill you with it.
I could be wrong, but the combat scabbard is listed as a weapon, which means it doesn't work with those things, right?
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The combat scabbard is listed as a weapon, but it also has the improvised tag.
Humble Beginnings
Regional
Effect: Catch Off Guard as a trait, but only for 1 of from a list of improvised weapons. Boot, bucket, frying pan, mug, rolling pin, spade, or stool.
Steven Brust has a character in his novels - a peasant and servant of one of the heroes - who has become a Master of the Three-Legged Stool after all the fight his master has dragged him into. He uses it as a club and the legs to disarm.
And speaking of improvised weapons, has anyone ever gotten any use out of the Equipment Trick: Rope feat? Among other things it lets you use ropes as whips and knotted ropes as spiked chains.