I had one player who carried a statue with him instead of a club, and I've seen some people try to game Catch Off-Guard by disarming foes so they're technically 'unarmed', but other than that I've never really seen someone use improvised weapons.
Have you used them in game before? And were they actually used as improvised weapons (i.e., look there's a chair let's hit them with it), or just as a replacement for a normal weapon, like club guy mentioned above?
Well... The game doesn't really encourage people to use improvised weapons (or do anything particularly cool or cinematic, really) in combat. It basically punishes you for doing anything other than spamming full attacks.
You pretty much need that enhancement bonus to keep your martial relevant, and many (if not most) creatures become all but downright immune to non-magical attacks. DR X/magic is pretty common...
So... No. I don't use improvised weapons. As much as I'd like to break a chair on my opponents' heads, Pathfinder is not the game for doing so.
*Cough* Monk of the Empty Hand *Cough*
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Ah, yes. There's that archetype...
It's... not good.
*Cough* Monk of the Empty Hand *Cough*
Honestly, I see that as being objectively worse than the normal monk in every way. Have you ever seen one played or rolled one yourself? How did it go?
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The only time I've ever really seen people use improvised weapons is when they had options or an archetype specifically intended to facilitate them doing so. Or in those "You wake up naked in a jail cell and the only thing in the room is the arm of its previous occupant" type deals where the game forces you to bludgeon your enemies to death with a zombie's arm until you fight something that actually has a weapon you can take from it.
We used a ton recently when we were playtesting the new Luchador class for Drop Dead Studios **Edit(lol, just realized who the OP was!)[\Edit], but that was because we were going full board WWE with steel-backed chairs, and the Luchador gets stuff to enable that, so it still kind of falls under the above exceptions.
I'm currently playing a Feral Gnasher and have gotten some use of improvised weapons in circumstances where I want to avoid my natural attack routine. Throwing things is fun! I keep some pitons of various metal types on my character in order to have that as a thrown anti-DR option, though I'm open to picking stuff up off the floor too.
Sure the improvised weapons aren't the star of the show, but they aren't forgotten in a dusty corner of my character sheet either.
*Cough* Monk of the Empty Hand *Cough*Honestly, I see that as being objectively worse than the normal monk in every way. Have you ever seen one played or rolled one yourself? How did it go?
I've only messed around when I was trying to make a Improvised Weapon character for a game (he was going wield a pillow, don't ask why). Anyway it didn't work well for the first few levels. However once I was able to spend Ki to improve it, it did get interesting. Not powerful like a normal monk, though very good in things like street brawls or times like this. Of course I guess magic is just as good in that situation, but hey this is good in low magic.
All in all, it might not be as good as monk for the situations it is good in. But it definitely is a lot more fun (at least for me).
Oh almost forgot, Goblins have many feats that boost torches, despite the fact that a torch is improvised!
I've used improvised weapons as back up to my primary weapon (an earth breaker). So far it's only come into use once, but that once was sort of funny. Ended up keeping a Vrykolakas vampire's at his lowered health despite his fast healing using a tree branch. Still thinking about retraining the catch off-guard feat I took earlier. It does its job fine, but that job doesn't come up often. Of course, I suppose I could force it to come up more often and just use random objects...
It's a thing that honestly requires some house ruling and a flexible / kind DM to be able to focus on and do well, I feel. Which is a definite bummer, because I want to recreate a strong Caseys Jones.
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For thematic reasons, I use improvised weapons during bar fights.
I also once had a character who carried a crowbar around and preferred to use that.
combat scabbard + weapon foucs and greater weapon foucs in one trait + catch off guard = i don't even have to draw my sword to kill you with it.
My drunken barbarian / alchemist is a brewmaster who wields a cask of grog as an improvised weapon. The Rough and Ready trait, rage, and alchemist bombs (flavored as exploding bottles of ale) go a long way to keeping him relevant.
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Well... The game doesn't really encourage people to use improvised weapons (or do anything particularly cool or cinematic, really) in combat. It basically punishes you for doing anything other than spamming full attacks.
Well, admittedly, you would be punished in this so called 'real life' if you tried to do something like that too.
I mean....I would not want to use a random table leg while facing a guy with a greatsword. Weapons are weapons cause they are designed to be rather easy to use to maim other people. Even a 0 gold club is likely at least a chair leg that has one end shaven down so it is easier to hold onto (like a baseball bat)- that is the entire point of using craft to make it (a background issue, obviously, but it is implied to happen).
I could see an argument for a more... functional monk of the empty hand, to basically roll a Jackie Chan... but otherwise, I am fine with the idea that you should use weapons if you want to kill someone.
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Well... The game doesn't really encourage people to use improvised weapons (or do anything particularly cool or cinematic, really) in combat. It basically punishes you for doing anything other than spamming full attacks.Well, admittedly, you would be punished in this so called 'real life' if you tried to do something like that too.
I mean....I would not want to use a random table leg while facing a guy with a greatsword. Weapons are weapons cause they are designed to be rather easy to use to maim other people. Even a 0 gold club is likely at least a chair leg that has one end shaven down so it is easier to hold onto (like a baseball bat)- that is the entire point of using craft to make it (a background issue, obviously, but it is implied to happen).
I could see an argument for a more... functional monk of the empty hand, to basically roll a Jackie Chan... but otherwise, I am fine with the idea that you should use weapons if you want to kill someone.
Ignoring the fact that "realism" isn't a particularly compelling argument... I think a fantasy game should allow you to do cool, cinematic stuff in and out of combat (without using magic).
You don't have to be as good as when you're using your favored weapon, of course, but it should be possible to do it without needing to invest a dozen feats to do so. One of Pathfinder greatest flaws is how prohibitive and punishing it is to any non-caster that tries to do anything that breaks the mold.
But I digress...
I had one player who carried a statue with him instead of a club, and I've seen some people try to game Catch Off-Guard by disarming foes so they're technically 'unarmed', but other than that I've never really seen someone use improvised weapons.
Have you used them in game before? And were they actually used as improvised weapons (i.e., look there's a chair let's hit them with it), or just as a replacement for a normal weapon, like club guy mentioned above?
Don't see a ton of catch-off guard, but I frequently see brawlers who decide to pick up throw anything and chuck greataxes, goblin corpses, barrels, etc. Overall the consensus was that it was better than if they tried to get archery feats, due to class limitations, and that it was betrer than if they used a crossbow (ignoring the one time the brawler got fed up with crummy damage from it and threw the crossbow).
If I can convince myself to play another brawler, and my GM that improvised weapons work with brawler's flurry (because lets face it, if a brawler isn't the king of chair smashing, nobody deserves that title), it might be my next melee character. Probably will be mixing in disarms. Definitely will take steelbreaker archetype, so I have less DR problems.
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Well... The game doesn't really encourage people to use improvised weapons (or do anything particularly cool or cinematic, really) in combat. It basically punishes you for doing anything other than spamming full attacks.Well, admittedly, you would be punished in this so called 'real life' if you tried to do something like that too.
The same can be said for expecting to subdue riots with bat guano and sulfer, but fireball remains solid.
For a more serious response though, many things you do in PF you get punished for IRL. Not moving much in a fight gets you killed, yet a fighter seems to win most often if he stays within 5ft of his starting point. Standing in an explosion causes horrible burns, bruises, and damages your senses. But in PF rogues can do it all day from level two.
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I think the idea of using improvised weapons in spectacular ways is pretty well ingrained in a lot of fantasy, popular fiction, and other media that Pathfinder often attempts to allow you to emulate. I would love it if the system presented you with more opportunities to smack someone with a folding chair, shatter a stone column across a golem's head, or heave a statue at a group of goblins.
Well... The game doesn't really encourage people to use improvised weapons (or do anything particularly cool or cinematic, really) in combat. It basically punishes you for doing anything other than spamming full attacks.Well, admittedly, you would be punished in this so called 'real life' if you tried to do something like that too.The same can be said for expecting to subdue riots with bat guano and sulfer, but fireball remains solid.
For a more serious response though, many things you do in PF you get punished for IRL. Not moving much in a fight gets you killed, yet a fighter seems to win most often if he stays within 5ft of his starting point. Standing in an explosion causes horrible burns, bruises, and damages your senses. But in PF rogues can do it all day from level two.
Oh, I know 'real life' is overrated (bat guano isn't such a far stretch when you start labeling it as 'ingredients for a bomb' though), I just want to hope that my 50 gold greatsword isn't just marginally better at killing dragons than a sack of flour.
I am a man that enjoys form leading to function- the aesthetic of brutal efficiency of weapons designed for a purpose of rending flesh from bone, of puncturing skulls with spikes. I do not necessarily ask for them to be truly practical, but I do enjoy when weapons with obvious goals and means in their design. Rather than a slightly jagged table leg.
We just have different tastes.
I think the idea of using improvised weapons in spectacular ways is pretty well ingrained in a lot of fantasy, popular fiction, and other media that Pathfinder often attempts to allow you to emulate. I would love it if the system presented you with more opportunities to smack someone with a folding chair, shatter a stone column across a golem's head, or heave a statue at a group of goblins.
Or use an Iron Cobra as a wip! Also couldn't you use Catch Off-Guard to basically just allow you a Sneak Attack Spamming rogue. Since they are always flat footed, you can always sneak attack right?!
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I think the idea of using improvised weapons in spectacular ways is pretty well ingrained in a lot of fantasy, popular fiction, and other media that Pathfinder often attempts to allow you to emulate. I would love it if the system presented you with more opportunities to smack someone with a folding chair, shatter a stone column across a golem's head, or heave a statue at a group of goblins.Or use an Iron Cobra as a whip!
Hells yeah!
Not to shamelessly self-promote (although I'm totally about to), but Drop Dead Studios will be releasing the Luchador, a monk/vigilante hybrid class, in the very near future, and the book features several really fun grapple-based mechanics that include things like slamming a grappled enemy into another adjacent enemy, so it will totally allow you to beat people with an iron cobra, if that's what fries your chicken. So, keep an eye out for that :)
I think the idea of using improvised weapons in spectacular ways is pretty well ingrained in a lot of fantasy, popular fiction, and other media that Pathfinder often attempts to allow you to emulate. I would love it if the system presented you with more opportunities to smack someone with a folding chair, shatter a stone column across a golem's head, or heave a statue at a group of goblins.Or use an Iron Cobra as a whip!Hells yeah!
Not to shamelessly self-promote (although I'm totally about to), but Drop Dead Studios will be releasing the Luchador, a monk/vigilante hybrid class, in the very near future, and the book features several really fun grapple-based mechanics that include things like slamming a grappled enemy into another adjacent enemy, so it will totally allow you to beat people with an iron cobra, if that's what fries your chicken. So, keep an eye out for that :)
I was thinking maybe try to make a Iron Cobra, or even a Mithril One then go around wielding it, not an enemy an actual pet Iron Cobra that I slam into peoples heads.
Maybe even duel wield them. Possibly filling them with poison so they (try to) bite when I hit >:D
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I think the idea of using improvised weapons in spectacular ways is pretty well ingrained in a lot of fantasy, popular fiction, and other media that Pathfinder often attempts to allow you to emulate. I would love it if the system presented you with more opportunities to smack someone with a folding chair, shatter a stone column across a golem's head, or heave a statue at a group of goblins.Or use an Iron Cobra as a whip!Hells yeah!
Not to shamelessly self-promote (although I'm totally about to), but Drop Dead Studios will be releasing the Luchador, a monk/vigilante hybrid class, in the very near future, and the book features several really fun grapple-based mechanics that include things like slamming a grappled enemy into another adjacent enemy, so it will totally allow you to beat people with an iron cobra, if that's what fries your chicken. So, keep an eye out for that :)
I was thinking maybe try to make a Iron Cobra, or even a Mithril One then go around wielding it, not an enemy an actual pet Iron Cobra that I slam into peoples heads.
Maybe even duel wield them. Possibly filling them with poison so they (try to) bite when I hit >:D
I mean, technically you could still do that. I can't imagine it'd be the first time in history someone used an ally as a weapon :P
That sounds like a full blown archetype or something though. Or an option for a Hunter/Alchemist hybrid class.... Oh man, Hunter/Alchemist hybrid class! With a class path for wielding your construct companion as a weapon. One sec, I need to go e-mail someone a pitch....
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I think the idea of using improvised weapons in spectacular ways is pretty well ingrained in a lot of fantasy, popular fiction, and other media that Pathfinder often attempts to allow you to emulate. I would love it if the system presented you with more opportunities to smack someone with a folding chair, shatter a stone column across a golem's head, or heave a statue at a group of goblins.Or use an Iron Cobra as a whip!Hells yeah!
Not to shamelessly self-promote (although I'm totally about to), but Drop Dead Studios will be releasing the Luchador, a monk/vigilante hybrid class, in the very near future, and the book features several really fun grapple-based mechanics that include things like slamming a grappled enemy into another adjacent enemy, so it will totally allow you to beat people with an iron cobra, if that's what fries your chicken. So, keep an eye out for that :)
I was thinking maybe try to make a Iron Cobra, or even a Mithril One then go around wielding it, not an enemy an actual pet Iron Cobra that I slam into peoples heads.
Maybe even duel wield them. Possibly filling them with poison so they (try to) bite when I hit >:D
I mean, technically you could still do that. I can't imagine it'd be the first time in history someone used an ally as a weapon :P
That sounds like a full blown archetype or something though. Or an option for a Hunter/Alchemist hybrid class.... Oh man, Hunter/Alchemist hybrid class! With a class path for wielding your construct companion as a weapon. One sec, I need to go e-mail someone a pitch....
Don't forget to give them sneak attack. I don't care if neither Alchemist or Hunter has that ability, at least make an archetype where they are allowed to sneak attack with their constructs.
Also, it definitely isn't the first time an ally has been used as a weapon. I have heard of many times this has happened including once with me. I ended up escaping my ropes (or was it manacles) after my allies at tied me up and stuffed me in a bag. (Don't ask why.) However I wasn't out of the bag yet, they ended up throwing me, (keep in mind I am still in the sack,) I rolled out and attacked the Goblin and killed it. So yeah allies as weapons FTW!
This conversation and the Cult Leader Archetype for Warpriest gives me a question. Can you get Weapon Focus on a specific improvised weapon. Ex: Weapon Focus (Pineapple)
Also can you combine Catch Off-Guard with Throw Anything to make ranged sneak attacks with anything?
The big thing that holds back improvised weapons of any type is the fact that it's almost impossible to enhance improvised weapons permanently and that a certain level of enhancement bonus to weapons are mandatory at higher levels.
You could buy a few scabbards of Vigor and hope for a quick fight every battle but other than that not much you can do...
For thematic reasons, I use improvised weapons during bar fights.
I also once had a character who carried a crowbar around and preferred to use that.
Gordon Freeman, is that you?
I've seen an alchemist get use from throw anything...at level 1.
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The big thing that holds back improvised weapons of any type is the fact that it's almost impossible to enhance improvised weapons permanently and that a certain level of enhancement bonus to weapons are mandatory at higher levels.
It'd work fine if you used the alternate rules where the + boost is automatic.
Though actually, I'm on the side where I don't think that improvised weapons should be a good primary tactic.
This year marks my 30th year of playing RPGs and I would have to say I could count on my hand the number of times improvised weapons have been used. Last time I immediately recall it was back in like 2003 or 2004. I trapped some players in a jail cell and the city was suddenly under attack. Even then, they were able to free themselves and find their gear so it wasn't very long.
Ive actually seen more examples of improvised weapons being used in Battletech. A mech picks up a blown off arm or tree limb and uses it.
Even then, I would try my luck with a sudden craft check.
Take the table leg, grind it against a corner until it has a smoothed handle. Tear off some cloth and wrap it around that handle. Instant club. Seems like something you can pull off whenever you don't have to escape NOW- whenever you got a few minutes to play with the ridiculous nature of crafting a 0 gold item (remember- crafting time is directly connected to cost).
I would also see if I could make a sling from my belt, or strips of cloth.
Really, the existence of 0 gp items available to pretty much everyone makes is much easier to just MacGuyver the situation rather than using actual improvised weapon rules.
The big thing that holds back improvised weapons of any type is the fact that it's almost impossible to enhance improvised weapons permanently and that a certain level of enhancement bonus to weapons are mandatory at higher levels.
You could buy a few scabbards of Vigor and hope for a quick fight every battle but other than that not much you can do...
If you can get Weapon Focus for Improvised Weapons, (even if it just is on one improvised weapon,) then as a Warpriest you could have the improvised weapon's damage be based on your level. That's a decent amount of damage.
Also if you make something like a chair leg out of special materials or using stuff like syringe then you can mimic special abilities. Syringes injecting poison or self healing chairs made out of Greenwood.
The basic barroom improvised weapon (a broken bottle) doesen't even work that well as a weapon compared to fists. If I calculated correctly the broken bottle deals the same damage when including the -4 accuracy as fists ( assuming the DM stats out the bottle as a dagger and the opponent's AC gets fully affected by the -4 attack). The only advantage it has is that the attack of opprotunity system means it attacks twice as fast.
Personally I only used an improvised weapon once. I was enlarged for the first time and my opponents were behind hastily made table barricades.I decided to throw the table at them so I ran over, picked it up and threw it at an enemy cleric ( in hindsight illegally taking 3 actions in a round). The combination of the improvisation penalty and horrible range increment meant that the cleric's armor ac deflected it. That's right, throwing a diningroom table at someone will be deflected by a breastplate.
As a sidenote in my own rules improvised weapons are considered fragile and use a d4 for a light one, d6 for a one handed one and d8 for a two handed one which makes them slightly worse than a simple weapon of the same size. If proficiency ever comes up I'd probably count them under simple weapons.
For thematic reasons, I use improvised weapons during bar fights.
I also once had a character who carried a crowbar around and preferred to use that.
In low level PFS games, I carry a crowbar ok most characters to open doors and (upon successfully argue that it has the trip quality) trip opponents. GMs seem to accept this as creative enough.
In low level PFS games, I carry a crowbar ok most characters to open doors and (upon successfully argue that it has the trip quality) trip opponents. GMs seem to accept this as creative enough.
You don't need the Trip property to trip your target... In fact, the trip property does absolutely nothing to help your trip attempt... It just gives you the horrible, horrible "option" of dropping your weapon instead of getting an AoO when you fail to trip someone... Nevermind the fact that if you try to recover your weapon you'll get AoO'd anyway.
SKR actually pointed that out to Jason after talking to forum members, but Jason said the trip property "did enough".
*sigh*
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The Trip property allows you to avoid being tripped in response to your failed attempt. You get the choice of drawing a backup weapon or standing/fighting from prone.
You can use a trip weapon to make trip attacks. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped.
The Trip property allows you to avoid being tripped in response to your failed attempt. You get the choice of drawing a backup weapon or standing/fighting from prone.
You can use a trip weapon to make trip attacks. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped.
Which only makes a difference if your trip fails by 10 or more...
So unless you're fighting quadruped giants and have no resources invested in trip, it'll likely never make any difference... If you are fighting quadruped giants and have no resources invested in trip... You shouldn't be trying to use trip, anyway.
Ah, I forgot... They also added an errata saying that if an weapon has the trip property, it can add its enhancement bonus to Drag and Reposition maneuvers...
Now, if those maneuvers weren't completely useless, that might actually count as something...
I once had a PC who threw silver forks as improvised shuriken, a tactic which was marginally effective against low CR devils.
My Feral Gnasher sometimes throws random objects when he can't get into melee and often attempts to use his grappling hook to "go fishing" for underwater monsters. That has produced some fun moments since the DM got creative with it, but in general the inability to enchant improvised weapons makes them suck in terms of effectiveness, and Catch Off Guard doesn't really fix that.
but in general the inability to enchant improvised weapons makes them suck in terms of effectiveness, and Catch Off Guard doesn't really fix that.
A Magus can enchant them (though not permanently) using his Arcane Pool. So can a Monk of the Empty Hand using Ki. Also a Warpriest, depending on whether or not you're allowed to get Weapon Focus on improvised weapons.
Can't speak to drag, but I've seen reposition useful in putting enemies right back into flank or other disadvantageous positions, as well as moving allies out of harms way.
The very few times I've seen them used were by Brawlers, since they can temporarily grab the Improved/Greater maneuver feats...
And even then, I could count the number of times in half a hand. Bull Rush is much more useful since you can actually push your enemies into dangerous areas and it can be done without sacrificing action economy if you use a shield.
I once had a PC who threw silver forks as improvised shuriken, a tactic which was marginally effective against low CR devils.
A regular Blue Raj, eh?
Trip: Oops, I thought for some reason it gave a bonus to trip attempts: I may have had a very generous GM while fighting an animated chair or some such.
I know its a rogue but the makeshift scrapper archetype uses improvised weapons very well, and can enchant them as well to get around one problem.
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I know its a rogue but the makeshift scrapper archetype uses improvised weapons very well, and can enchant them as well to get around one problem.
In my opinion it is one of the stronger archetypes. As since Catch-Off Guard makes it so your enemies are always flat-footed while you are wielding an improvised weapon, you can always be sneak attacking.
Thus you get a Rogue who can almost always sneak attack, even if he only has a pineapple!
"Less useful than X" isn't exactly equal to "useless". If nothing else, it's nice to have explicit permission to throw your unconcious partner behind you as a standard action.
Well, when X isn't all that useful to start with, it comes pretty close... Besides, "less useful than Bull Rush" is not the reason I call drag and reposition useless... It's because they are useless 99% of the time.
Also, since we can grab an object and drop it on an adjacent square, why wouldn't we be able to do it with an unconscious friend?