RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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To quickly address the folks who say it's better the misfortune twice with accursed hex.
Great, now we're actually comparing hexes.
To add to your analysis, bear in mind that EE works on attacks or saves or skill checks, whereas Misfortune works on attacks and saves and skill checks, all at the same time.
Furthermore, EE is mind-affecting, whereas Misfortune is not. Unfortunately, it is not uncommon to fight enemies that are immune to mind-affecting abilities.
... In what universe is the Healing hex ever a good option?
It depends on your campaign. As you say, in party-vs-monster combat you should instead use wands. However, in a more sandboxy setting, this hex allows you to heal anyone and everyone you meet, for free. Try using it in a hospital or orphanage and make friends fast...
Flight is also just a permanent feather fall and bonus to swim checks at second level, which is... underwhelming.
Yes, and levitation is decent at level three. I would be happy to take Flight at level four instead of level six, though.
Fortune is a nice "save my bacon!" effect, but it's once per round limits its usefullness to pretty much just being for saves.
It's surprisingly effective to Fortune the main melee character (preferably a few rounds before combat) and keep cackling on that. Assuming your party has more than one frontliner, you can use it on somebody else the next combat.
That leaves Peacebond, which requires that you go first, period.
Not faster than everyone, just faster than one enemy.
Yeah. You know, it almost looks like that except for Misfortune, Evil Eye is the most versatile and powerful option out of the hexes you listed for second level. Imagine that.
And Slumber, of course. And then there's spells; it should be obvious that spells are intended to be stronger than hexes (and at level two, the Daze cantrip is still potent).
But we're already agreeing that Misfortune is better than EE, so that's progress :)
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What some of the detractors seem to be missing is this is an ability you get at level 2.What most of the proponents seem to be missing is that you also get other abilities at level 2. Notably, spells (which are supposed to be better than hexes because they're limited in use), and other hexes.
And it's a great fall back for when you want to do something, but you don't want to waste a resource. Yes, yes, we're level 10 fighting a bunch of Gobin Fighter 4's, but I don't want to just say "I delay".See, that goes for every single hex; that's not an argument for ee.
I understand that witches may want to avoid Slumber on account of cheesiness, but even aside from that, hexes like Fortune, Misfortune, Healing, Peacebond, and Fly are all better choices at level two than ee, and better actions if you don't want to spend a spell slot.
EE at level two? Not such a good choice.
So, answer this question: What spells is the witch casting? If your fallback is "The Witch should always be casting spells, or using other hexes than Evil Eye", you need to show some examples, and demonstrate clearly that the other options are better.
The fact is that mathematically (as in, the way most everyone decides on optimal builds & strategies), Evil Eye is a reasonable way to use your action. Yes, hexes like Misfortune and Fortune are nice, but few of them have the widespread impact on your entire party that Evil Eye has. Healing is widely held as being ineffective in combat scenarios, Fly has little point at low levels, and unless you're also burning a hex on Cackle (which, to be fair, most people are), Misfortune and Fortune while awesome, will only last one round on a failed save.
Evil Eye always works, and mathematically is shown to be a valid use of a character's standard action. Most spells have powerful effects, but the overall effects are often mitigated by chances of saving. In addition, most of the spells that would outdo Evil Eye in effectiveness are your higher level spells, of which you often have fewer. This is also subject to build decisions, as patron spells and archetypes can completely change what your character does well. Sure, at higher levels I'd rather be casting Haste for support, but you know what a great follow-up for that is? AC drop via Evil Eye. Black Tentacles for the enemy spellcaster? Well, AC penalties apply to CMD too, so you wanna keep him grappled? Evil Eye. Fighting a single boss enemy with lots of attacks? That Evil Eye automatic penalty to attack rolls is more effective healing than most of your spells can prevent.
So even when you have spells with fantastic effects, Evil Eye can compound those effects after the fact, and when you're testing the waters (i.e., are unsure of enemy capabilities) it's a solid fallback option.
In the end, I think that Evil Eye is just good.
I've played a game where my character was getting wrecked in melee by a nasty monster (I was the melee oriented alchemist). We had a level 10 Witch in the party that, when it came to his turn, didn't know what to do. I knew that this big bad only had a handful hit points left (I had clobbered it for a good 85 or so hp, and I had 5 attacks coming up), so I suggested to Evil Eye his AC so I could land those hits. He said he didn't have Evil Eye... My heart sank a little. He then tried to slumber it, and it made its save (thing had stupid stats, had monk levels I think). We won by the skins of our teeth, but a -4 to AC or saves would have been huge.
My girlfriend has a shaman in the game I'm running who uses Evil Eye. I kid you not, it has made the difference between success and failure as the party barely hits due to the creatures -2 AC (she's only level 5), or the creature barely fails its save with is newly found -2 saves (I would like to mention that -2 saves is bad at low levels, and -4 saves is a HUGE loss no matter the level).
Evil Eye is good for party support. If you're looking for blasting your enemy or taking them down personally, then you're comparing apples to oranges.
EDIT: Also Evil Eyeing saves to stick Misfortune is a fight ender against a big bad.
Levitate is "decent" at exactly 0 levels. 20 feet per round in no direction but straight up is rarely more useful than just climbing a rope, because you certainly won't be using it in combat.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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The witch having something else they could do, does not make EE poor.
That is like saying the barbarian could have hit for 900 points of damage so this 450 points of damage is garbage.
Precisely.
If this thread was about barbarians, then the OP would have posted that "daggers are underwhelming for barbs, greatswords are better!" and advise people not to take weapon focus (dagger), and not to buy a +1 dagger as your primary weapon.
And then people would be responding "yes, but daggers do damage" or "well, I had this barbarian with a dagger, and I really liked him", or pointing out that "a barbarian's damage with daggers goes up when he rages".
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Peacebond is rather situational. Not only do you have to go faster than someone (other than archers), but they have to be someone who both wields weapons and haven't drawn one yet. (Many weapons such as halbreds are basically always drawn, and I don't know about you, but my characters have my weapons drawn anytime I think that a fight is likely.)
It's too situational for me.
So, answer this question: What spells is the witch casting? If your fallback is "The Witch should always be casting spells, or using other hexes than Evil Eye", you need to show some examples, and demonstrate clearly that the other options are better.What some of the detractors seem to be missing is this is an ability you get at level 2.What most of the proponents seem to be missing is that you also get other abilities at level 2. Notably, spells (which are supposed to be better than hexes because they're limited in use), and other hexes.
And it's a great fall back for when you want to do something, but you don't want to waste a resource. Yes, yes, we're level 10 fighting a bunch of Gobin Fighter 4's, but I don't want to just say "I delay".See, that goes for every single hex; that's not an argument for ee.
I understand that witches may want to avoid Slumber on account of cheesiness, but even aside from that, hexes like Fortune, Misfortune, Healing, Peacebond, and Fly are all better choices at level two than ee, and better actions if you don't want to spend a spell slot.
EE at level two? Not such a good choice.
Not only that, but the witch isn't guaranteed to have a better casting option, particularly in later encounters during a given day. As a prepared caster, you can only cover so much ground. By the 3rd or 4th fight in a day, the witch is probably down to very few options other than hexes. Furthermore, it may be prudent to save the big whammy spells for later, and EE is a decent choice over doing nothing, more so if other hexes have already failed.
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The witch having something else they could do, does not make EE poor.
That is like saying the barbarian could have hit for 900 points of damage so this 450 points of damage is garbage.Precisely.
If this thread was about barbarians, then the OP would have posted that "daggers are underwhelming for barbs, greatswords are better!" and advise people not to take weapon focus (dagger), and not to buy a +1 dagger as your primary weapon.
And then people would be responding "yes, but daggers do damage" or "well, I had this barbarian with a dagger, and I really liked him", or pointing out that "a barbarian's damage with daggers goes up when he rages".
If you're going to compare hypotheticals at least be intellectually honest when comparing them.
Evil Eye has been described as a good back-up option (which you disagree with). Were we talking about Barbarians it would be people saying "Buy a gauntlet, you might need it at some point" with others going "But Greatswords are better" and the original parties chiming in that, yes, Greatswords are generally better but having an option you can use in the rare scenarios you are disarmed or grappled is quite nice to have, actually.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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So, answer this question: What spells is the witch casting?
That's not hard. Daze. Ear-piercing Scream. Sleep (the spell). Glitterdust. Web. Affecting multiple creatures is better than affecting one, and dazing or blinding is better than a -2.
The fact is that mathematically (as in, the way most everyone decides on optimal builds & strategies),
You need to re-check your math, then. As this thread shows, mathematically, evil eye is clearly worse than good spells and than several other hexes (including but not limited to misfortune).
As several people have pointed out, ee is what you use instead of cantrips when you have nothing better to do. And a decently build character pretty much always has something better to do. And that's what we're advising for, since this is the advice forum.
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If you are fighting inside a fight is likely to already be withing 30 feet. If you are fighting outside then even one round is good because when polls come up here asking about average, non-boss fights, the fight time is around 3 rounds. Even if evil eye one expires you still have 2 more to hit them with before the round is over.
I agree. Like I said, I'm a fan of EE. I've just seen a lot of people react to the Witch negatively, because they feel like it's overpowered or that it's unfair that it has a no save ability. Throw in Ill Omen, also no save, and people start to feel like the Witch is a class they can't defend against. Granted, a lot of that reaction is related to Slumber Hex, and granted a lot of that was before the ACG came out and people got a fresh set of powerful classes to complain about.
Evil Eye is good. Unlimited uses of it is great. Where the Witch becomes broken or overpowered is where the rules aren't being followed properly. Range of the hexes is a major limiting factor. Action economy on cackling is likewise an issue that has to be taken into account. Those things are less of a concern in a dungeon, but they're still concerns. There are large rooms even indoors. That Barbarian you fortuned charges to the back of the room while you're trying to maintain a fortune on the rest of the party? Everyone needs to think about their positioning or someone gets left out. If the Witch has to move and cackle, they aren't getting to cast a spell or use another hex that round. That's all I'm saying. And I only brought it up because someone up thread laid out a sequence of rounds with exactly the issue that I'm talking about (cackling in round 2 to extend EE after a made save) and no one corrected them.
The witch having something else they could do, does not make EE poor.
That is like saying the barbarian could have hit for 900 points of damage so this 450 points of damage is garbage.Precisely.
If this thread was about barbarians, then the OP would have posted that "daggers are underwhelming for barbs, greatswords are better!" and advise people not to take weapon focus (dagger), and not to buy a +1 dagger as your primary weapon.
And then people would be responding "yes, but daggers do damage" or "well, I had this barbarian with a dagger, and I really liked him", or pointing out that "a barbarian's damage with daggers goes up when he rages".
If you're going to compare hypotheticals at least be intellectually honest when comparing them.
Evil Eye has been described as a good back-up option (which you disagree with). Were we talking about Barbarians it would be people saying "Buy a gauntlet, you might need it at some point" with others going "But Greatswords are better" and the original parties chiming in that, yes, Greatswords are generally better but having an option you can use in the rare scenarios you are disarmed or grappled is quite nice to have, actually.
I was just as intellectually honest as whoever claimed that EE was a poor option.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Evil Eye has been described as a good back-up option (which you disagree with).
Please read the thread again. I'm arguing against EE as a primary strategy because I've seen many witches (and people in this thread) suggesting it should be a primary strategy. Like a gauntlet, it is a mediocre back-up option. It is good to have back-up options, but you don't use those unless you have to.
For the barb, that means you don't invest feats/resources in a gauntlet until you've invested them in a better weapon. And for a witch, that means you shouldn't take ee at level two, because there are other hexes to consider first. For the barb, that means you start most combats with your big sword (not your gauntlet). For the witch, you should start most combats with a spell or other hex (not ee).
So, answer this question: What spells is the witch casting?That's not hard. Daze. Ear-piercing Scream. Sleep (the spell). Glitterdust. Web. Affecting multiple creatures is better than affecting one, and dazing or blinding is better than a -2.
... Hey, you know what all those spells benefit from? Using Evil Eye to target saves. Also, both Daze and Sleep have set HD caps where they stop being effective. Add in the fact that both Glitterdust and Web are second level spells, and... Yeah. I don't like it when I whiff on spells, so using Evil Eye to hit their saves just seems like a solid way to handle things to me, especially if there's other party members who can take advantage of it as well.
So, answer this question: What spells is the witch casting?That's not hard. Daze. Ear-piercing Scream. Sleep (the spell). Glitterdust. Web. Affecting multiple creatures is better than affecting one, and dazing or blinding is better than a -2.
Take Ear-Piercing Scream off that list. It might stop someone for one round. EE is ahead from the day it shows up.
Spell is a full round to cast. You get disrupted and the spell is gone. The enemies also have to be in a neat formation for you.Daze works once and then it is done. EE just keeps chugging along.
Glitterdust is nice when it works, so that is not a bad example. Web also provides cover. I see them as being situationally better, and EE is generally more useful.
PS: Once again I would glitterdust is the only competitor for generally usefulness, and EE helps you not burn spell slots, and it is useful on its own.
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How does Evil Eye compare to Inspire Courage at low levels? Against a group of opponents, I'd imagine Bardic Performance is clearly superior. Against a single enemy or if everyone is concentrating on one, EE for AC is effectively increasing the chance for the party to hit by twice what Inspire Courage does at low levels. Bards have access to Daze, Sleep, Hideous Laughter, Grease, Glitterdust, etc. is a Bard wasting their turn using a standard action to start Inspire Courage?
I prefer Misfortune to EE, and generally agree it's probably better to try that first. But anything with a good Will save might ignore it. Sometimes it's good just to have something that's guaranteed to work (excepting immunity to mind-affecting).
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Evil Eye has been described as a good back-up option (which you disagree with).Please read the thread again. I'm arguing against EE as a primary strategy because I've seen many witches (and people in this thread) suggesting it should be a primary strategy. Like a gauntlet, it is a mediocre back-up option. It is good to have back-up options, but you don't use those unless you have to.
I pretty much agree with that. It's not a horrible way to open up an easy fight you don't want to burn your good spells on, or late in an average fight that's all but won, but I doubt that I'd use it in a tougher fight unless they have spell resistance and/or crazy saves.
It's worth burning a hex on though as it's nice to have at low levels when you have few spells, and it gets pretty good at 8+ when it goes to -4. It would very rarely be worth your time at levels 4-7 though.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Any rote strategy is going to have problems, especially on a caster. As part of a toolkit of abilities that can be adapted to situations, Evil Eye is a worthwhile choice. Spamming it mindlessly will be less effective.
I just finished a playthrough of Skull&Shackles with a witch. I think the last day of the AP we had 11 encounters in one day. Evil Eye was certainly part of my strategy to save my spells for when they were truly needed while still contributing to the less pressing encounters.
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It's worth pointing out that if you're trying to coordinate with another caster to get a single Save or Die spell off against anything that is affected by mind-affecting abilities, Ill Omen (from a Wand, even!) is superior to both Evil Eye and Misfortune. Have the Sorcerer or whatever ready to cast their spell when you hit the enemy with Ill Omen. No save, roll twice for the save against your teammate's spell. Even better if your teammate is throwing out a Persistent spell. Or as was mentioned earlier, at higher levels Quicken Ill Omen and do the heavy lifting yourself or get an Improved Familiar to use it prior to casting your own SoD spell.
Random question but would the mesmerists stare and evil eye stack? Then you could do crazy debuffs with that.
no, they don't stack.
"The penalties from multiple mesmerists' stares don't stack, nor do they stack with penalties from witches' evil eye hexes. This is a mind-affecting effect."
Because I am not wasting spells to deal with minor threats!
People are too spoiled in the one encounter workday that has become the norm. Sure throw all your spells in the morning, pretty sure the module won't hit us with anything else until we rest....
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Comparing Hexes to spells seems like a false dichotomy to me. Hexes are more like a wizard's school powers, or a sorcerer's bloodline abilities, or a magus' arcana. They're a way to extend and enhance your spell-casting abilities. They add customisation options and another interesting way to optimise your character. They're similar to spells in their effects, but they're used differently. I'm going to avoid that whole side of things and instead compare hexes to hexes.
The most obvious comparison for the Evil Eye hex is of course the Misfortune hex.
Misfortune is a stronger debuff - Period.
The penalty it inflicts is numerically more powerful (on average) and it affects all ability checks AND attack rolls AND saving throws AND skill checks, as opposed to Evil Eye which has to choose one of those to debuff.
However there are a few things Evil Eye has that Misfortune doesn't have...
- Although you have to choose where to put the penalty, you get one extra option to debuff (you can target the enemy's AC).
- It lasts more than one round (Misfortune maxes out at 3 rounds at level 16, Evil Eye is a minimum 3 rounds at level 1).
- You can target the same creature twice in 1 day.
- You always affect the enemy, even if they save (this to me is the kicker)
I don't see them as better/worse, I see them as different.
Also just for curiosity's sake, how would people rate Evil Eye if the Cackle Hex didn't exist? A lot of people have been talking about how other hexes are better and you can cackle to keep them going, but Evil eye will likely last the entire combat without Cackle. So really we're comparing Misfortune+Cackle to Evil Eye alone (I understand Cackle DOES exist and is a good way to use your resources, I'm just curious to see if this would change people's ratings).
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... In what universe is the Healing hex ever a good option?It depends on your campaign. As you say, in party-vs-monster combat you should instead use wands. However, in a more sandboxy setting, this hex allows you to heal anyone and everyone you meet, for free. Try using it in a hospital or orphanage and make friends fast...
The Healing hex also combos well with the Scar hex. It's not going to be your primary healing for the party, since you can only use it on each party member once per day. That's what wands are for.
But if you scar all your party members in advance ("mark your minions"), then you can heal them from up to a mile away once per day. Usually, that means keeping the unconscious barbarian from bleeding out, even though he's 200 feet ahead of squishy healers in the back.
I really like Scar for a witch focused on buffing and healing hexes, and then use your spells for pure offense.
Also, why does everyone keep talking about level 2 for your first hex, and only even levels after that? Witches get their first hex at level 1, and I'd assume Extra Hex is a popular feat.
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So, answer this question: What spells is the witch casting?That's not hard. Daze. Ear-piercing Scream. Sleep (the spell). Glitterdust. Web. Affecting multiple creatures is better than affecting one, and dazing or blinding is better than a -2.
The fact is that mathematically (as in, the way most everyone decides on optimal builds & strategies),You need to re-check your math, then. As this thread shows, mathematically, evil eye is clearly worse than good spells and than several other hexes (including but not limited to misfortune).
As several people have pointed out, ee is what you use instead of cantrips when you have nothing better to do. And a decently build character pretty much always has something better to do. And that's what we're advising for, since this is the advice forum.
Well, yeah.
And all those spells also require saves.
And all those spells are part of a very limited resource, especially at low levels.
Also, ALL of the math in this thread has shown that, when the enemy makes their save, you've had a generally average turn (because something still happens on the save, which isn't the case for most misses & successful saves), and when they fail their save, your contribution for a single standard action becomes quite large, especially given that Evil Eye is reusable throughout the day.
In a large party (between 3 and 6 people other than the witch), being able to drastically increase your party's ability to succeed at the task at hand is a big boon, and while many spells have potent effects, and many hexes do as well, Evil Eye is consistent, reliable support with a direct impact on combat. The ONLY hexes that really compete with it are Slumber (which is effectively a KO if they fail the save), Fortune on an ally (which only affects a SINGLE ally), or Misfortune on the enemy (which requires a save, and only reduces damage effectively, not increasing damage taken).
All of these hexes have their place, but if a majority of your party finds themselves making attack rolls, or if the majority of your party casts spells, there's always a consistent, beneficial use for Evil Eye which CAN outshine other hexes when used well.
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Maybe you had an advantaged turn, maybe you did not. What if instead of casting a spell like web, you use evil eye. Then the opponent glitterdusts your team or something.
Can it ever really outshine fortune misfortune or slumber. One of those is an instant kill and misfortune leaves a guy functionally useless.
I'm trying to imagine when this would come up. I cant seem to
I'm having serious trouble understanding this post. I'm just going to ignore that first paragraph and answer the second one:
And the obvious answer is that Evil Eye outshines Misfortune and Slumber every time the enemy makes their save.
Maybe you had an advantaged turn, maybe you did not. What if instead of casting a spell like web, you use evil eye. Then the opponent glitterdusts your team or something.
Can it ever really outshine fortune misfortune or slumber. One of those is an instant kill and misfortune leaves a guy functionally useless.
I'm trying to imagine when this would come up. I cant seem to
Once again we are not talking about using evil eye on say a caster about to use a spell, we are talking about electing to de-buff rather than waste a spell killing a mook.
Is there a time and place, and situation for evil eye over slumber or misfortune at low level. Yes because at first level you have one hex, two if you are a human.
So let's say you spam slumber first and they save, what do you do the remainder of the combat? What is your other hex?
Let's say you have slumber and misfortune and they save against both, what is your round three action?
Accursed Hex.
Other enemies.
Bruising intellect trait -> demoralize.
If it's the boss fight and you're down to one enemy then you should start breaking out spells. If it's not a boss fight then an evil eye modifier is going to be totally superfluous as your melee buddies beat down mooks.
Slumber ends bad guys. Misfortune works on everybody. Evil Eye wastes a standard action for a very minor effect.
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Slumber ends bad guys.
Sometimes.
Frankly - I think that Slumber is made better by lazy DMs. At low levels - sure - it's often deadly. But at higher levels it's not hard for another foe to burn an iterative to kick them or even hit them with an arrow. Or an AOE which includes them.
Will those things hurt them? Sure. But they won't die, and they're better off than they are remaining asleep.
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Also just for curiosity's sake, how would people rate Evil Eye if the Cackle Hex didn't exist? A lot of people have been talking about how other hexes are better and you can cackle to keep them going, but Evil eye will likely last the entire combat without Cackle. So really we're comparing Misfortune+Cackle to Evil Eye alone (I understand Cackle DOES exist and is a good way to use your resources, I'm just curious to see if this would change people's ratings).
Since no one else has addressed this yet, I'll go ahead and step up to the plate. Personally, I think that every type of witch suffers greatly without Cackle, as the class really seems to be built with Cackle in mind. That being said, without Cackle, Evil Eye is still an ability that's always going to work, though without the length of use that Cackle would cause. Meanwhile, Misfortune would still have its chance to do nothing, and a laughably (Hah!) short duration while doing so. So while Misfortune is a more potent debuff, its duration leaves much to be desired, and there's always the chance it does nothing.
Evil Eye wastes a standard action for a very minor effect.
So a debuff that is guaranteed to work regardless of your enemies saves is a waste? I mean, there's plenty of other math in the thread showing that Evil Eye is far from useless.
Now, I admit that I -really- dislike it when my spells do absolutely nothing to contribute, as do most people I know. Hell, this is why a bunch of guides for casters are built around getting your casting stat as high as possible. So, in my mind, Evil Eye is just a permanent way to contribute to a fight regardless of most circumstances (barring undead and constructs, which are pretty good at nerfing most of a witch's best tricks anyways). Evil Eye isn't flashy or even a fight ender. But it is a reliable enabler, and that's golden in my book.
I’ve seen a bunch of threads lately about how to extend the adventuring day, how to make your spells last longer, or amping up daily school and domain powers. Evil Eye is something effective you can do without using a spell. It also can also enhance efficiency by serving as a setup to some limited use ability which allows a saving throw so that more valuable resource doesn't end up being "wasted". Consistent and reliable powers help contribute to a repeatable process.
Evil Eye is very consistent, and it helps your allies succeed. I think that can often be better and more fun than some SoL effect which is all or nothing and either leaves your allies getting the snot beat out of them by a completely unaffected monster or standing around wondering why they bothered to come on the adventure at all.
The repeated implication that Evil Eye is a waste since demoralize can accomplish the same goals seems off base to me. The debuffs to attacks and saves can stack to create a more powerful effect, and Evil Eye's debuff to AC is not only something demoralize doesn't provide but also a debuff to CMD which helps enable many other debuffs via combat maneuvers.
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Personally, I'm a big fan of meticulous debuff stacking. Intimidate, Evil Eye, Misfortune, and then your heavy hitter. (My current favorite in PFS is Dominate Person.)
No, it isn't as efficient as just popping slumber or, Nethys forbid, a quickened Ill Omen before that. But those 4 turns gives the party a chance to participate in combat. Kno k off some HP. Disarm the guy. Do Special Fight Mechanics Thing for that particular encounter. It's much more fun for the table if the big bad doesn't get Shrek't on roud one before the melee gets to take a swing.
Levitate is "decent" at exactly 0 levels. 20 feet per round in no direction but straight up is rarely more useful than just climbing a rope, because you certainly won't be using it in combat.
Its a pretty great combat buff if most of what you fight still isn't flying. Immunity to melee combatants is "decent" unless you often face archers (or the like). You are vulnerable to ranged attacks, so you have to know when to use it, but if your GM likes using monsters instead of NPCs it can be decent at lower levels.
As for Evil Eye, its a great tertiary strategy. Its not a primary plan because spells should be your go to (once you hit about 5th and have a good amount). Its not your backup because misfortune is generally more effective anyway. But you will probably pick up a lot of hexes (extra hex is fun), and a -2 AC is a heck of a lot more fun for the table than slumber. It is overrated because misfortune and spells are better, and slumber is flashier. However it is decent because the number of fights where a -2/-4 to AC/Saves isn't a significant contribution is very low.
I was just as intellectually honest as whoever claimed that EE was a poor option.The witch having something else they could do, does not make EE poor.
That is like saying the barbarian could have hit for 900 points of damage so this 450 points of damage is garbage.Precisely.
If this thread was about barbarians, then the OP would have posted that "daggers are underwhelming for barbs, greatswords are better!" and advise people not to take weapon focus (dagger), and not to buy a +1 dagger as your primary weapon.
And then people would be responding "yes, but daggers do damage" or "well, I had this barbarian with a dagger, and I really liked him", or pointing out that "a barbarian's damage with daggers goes up when he rages".
If you're going to compare hypotheticals at least be intellectually honest when comparing them.
Evil Eye has been described as a good back-up option (which you disagree with). Were we talking about Barbarians it would be people saying "Buy a gauntlet, you might need it at some point" with others going "But Greatswords are better" and the original parties chiming in that, yes, Greatswords are generally better but having an option you can use in the rare scenarios you are disarmed or grappled is quite nice to have, actually.
Sundakan it is also intellectually dishonest to only call out one side. I am waiting for you to call out the person who made that "poor" statement. Don't ever mention my name again if you can't call out both sides. Part of the reason I made that statement was because I knew someone would complain, and it just happened to be you. You have been found lacking in integrity.It's been well over 24 hours. This is my last comment on the topic at least until I see you do this again.
...What? I never replied to you in the first place, you're misreading the quotes.
If you're going to throw a hissy fit about somebody commenting on something you said, at least make sure they're actually talking to you first.
Just because the person I'm talking to quoted you, doesn't mean I am quoting you.
Unless Kurald Galain is your alt or something?
Isn't a fairly common idea that a Wizard will cast one or two spells to control the battlefield/give the martial's and edge and then hold back because they don't want to run out of spells?
Evil eye is a really good thing to do after you've done that, I had a witch with perfect spell ice storm who liked to chuck out a Dazing Selective Ice storm, next turn she might throw up haste/summon something/dispel something
Then subsequently she could fall back to Evil Eye and Misfortune. This was a common strategy I ran with pretty much from about 5 till the end of the campaign. Yes she could be doing something better but in 4 encounters you'll probably have wished you'd saved some of your better things rather than be stuck with Hexes out the gate.
If you have a 15 minute work day then sure chuck out all the big combat spells you have prepped and stomp that encounter into the dirt.
If however you might have a number of encounters in your day then resource management actually matters and what is essentially buffing everyone's save DCs or BaB by plus 4 for exactly no resources is suddenly wonderful.
Misfortune also has its own little niche for being a decent debuff which isn't mind effecting, since so much of the witches list is rendered useless against those immune to such tomfoolery. (Same reason my perfect had Dazing on it and targeted reflexes ;) )
as for setting up the unholy trio, I think that you are probably better off with just a deadly duo.
Especially before you've had time to invest in accursed Hex, when you actually need that first slumber to stick.
Also as an interesting aside, Amazing initiative from Mythic tiers allows for 2 standard actions in one round as long as Amazing initiative one isn't a spell so you could.
Amazing Init Evil Eye
Quickened Ill Omen
Slumber/SoS spell
unholy trio in one turn seems pretty nasty
