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I've been spending a lot of time tinkering with the Vigilante lately, and I am now very much of the opinion that it's probably the best non-spellcasting class Paizo has released. You have Ex abilities that can counter spells, a super flexible chassis, combat talents that are potent and effective, social talents that draw from their own pool instead of competing with combat options, the ability to maintain two separate alignments, and the Stalker may very well be the only class I've seen that has non-magical AoE capabilities.
Has anyone else been playing a vigilante? What build(s) have you been using? What about the class appeals or does not appeal to you?
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I'm actually going to say yes to the thread title here. To me, it's a refined fighter that just works better, and it just needs a few more archetypes to round it out.
Social talents help extend usefulness outside of combat in a great way, making it feel more complete.
Also, I am greatly amused that vigilante talent design seems to be "take a garbage feat and make it good"
There's a few things I find a tad extraneous (required dual identity), but aside from some minor issues that can be overlooked, I think the class as a whole is a very great addition to the game, and it's becoming my favorite mundane class.
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The barbarian sets a pretty high bar for non casting classes. I haven't played around enough with the Vigilante to say for sure but it does have some good abilities.
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The barbarian sets a pretty high bar for non casting classes. I haven't played around enough with the Vigilante to say for sure but it does have some good abilities.
I think the biggest point in the Barbarian's favor is native access to flight, though the vigilante's ability to manipulate WBL with store discounts and greater skill facility can quickly close that gap.
I think Barbarian also has an edge in damage, but last time I looked at the numbers it seemed like an Avenger Vigilante with Shield of Blades, Signature Weapon, and Lethal Grace could get reasonably close while hitting an AC that the Barbarian can only match with Beast Totem (maybe Invulnerable Rager? Haven't run those numbers). With the right build, you can proc a lot of AoE damage off the Stalker, though that damage is nonlethal and generally triggers off Intimidate, which means there's about as many creatures immune to the damage as the Rogue had to deal with for Sneak Attack in 3.5.
I really like the scry-proofing the Vigilante has. The ability to piss off powerful spellcasters and then disappear to a divination proof safe house, switch identities, and stroll about completely undetectable can be a big deal. Bonus points if one of your identities is regarded as an ally by the enemy.
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I am loving the class so far. It's competing with Kineticist for my 3rd favorite in the game. Talents cover a lot of bases while making some less remarkable options into something more competitive with the favorites.
My concern is with Dual Identity potentially buckling under stress test. In PFS, you create a situation where revealing your identity has no real consequence outside of that 4 hour time slot. In a home game, the Vigilante's team mates become a major liability when Divination becomes a factor. Thankfully, the class' multitude of options invites you to play an all Vigilante table.
I'm currently playing a level 2 Vishkanya Avenger in PFS. She's going to Finesse/Fist style, with plans on taking TWF, Enforcer, and at least the first Snake Style feat. Shield of Blades and Signature Weapon should keep my damage passable. I'm tempted to make use of the Social Identity as a primary combat form at the middle levels thanks to Social Grace giving me a good Sense Motive bonus.
Playing a full BAB passable skill monkey is a pretty great feeling.
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There's a few things I find a tad extraneous (required dual identity), but aside from some minor issues that can be overlooked, I think the class as a whole is a very great addition to the game, and it's becoming my favorite mundane class.
I actually think that Dual Identity is a great feature to add social abilities/skills to classes that lack them.
Your typical fighter or rogue isn't gonna be the best diplomat/smooth talker here :P
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There's a few things I find a tad extraneous (required dual identity), but aside from some minor issues that can be overlooked, I think the class as a whole is a very great addition to the game, and it's becoming my favorite mundane class.I actually think that Dual Identity is a great feature to add social abilities/skills to classes that lack them.
Your typical fighter or rogue isn't gonna be the best diplomat/smooth talker here :P
You also don't technically have to make use of dual identity. Social talents require you to be in social identity, but using vigilante talents in social identity just risks exposing you. If everyone already knows, there's no risk (you just lose the protection from divinations that dual identity gives, which puts you on the same playing field as every other class out there).
And there's lots to make the class worth it even if you're ignoring dual identity completely. It's one of those classes (bard and oracle are two others for me) that can work with just about any character concept, especially when you mix the spellcasting archetypes in.
There's a few things I find a tad extraneous (required dual identity), but aside from some minor issues that can be overlooked, I think the class as a whole is a very great addition to the game, and it's becoming my favorite mundane class.I actually think that Dual Identity is a great feature to add social abilities/skills to classes that lack them.
Your typical fighter or rogue isn't gonna be the best diplomat/smooth talker here :P
You also don't technically have to make use of dual identity. Social talents require you to be in social identity, but using vigilante talents in social identity just risks exposing you. If everyone already knows, there's no risk (you just lose the protection from divinations that dual identity gives, which puts you on the same playing field as every other class out there).
And there's lots to make the class worth it even if you're ignoring dual identity completely. It's one of those classes (bard and oracle are two others for me) that can work with just about any character concept, especially when you mix the spellcasting archetypes in.
It's true that you can ignore the Social identity, but it offers a LOT of useful features ;)
Furthermore, you can reveal yourself to the other party members, but I'd say you can have some fun trying to hide it from other XD
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There's a few things I find a tad extraneous (required dual identity), but aside from some minor issues that can be overlooked, I think the class as a whole is a very great addition to the game, and it's becoming my favorite mundane class.I actually think that Dual Identity is a great feature to add social abilities/skills to classes that lack them.
Your typical fighter or rogue isn't gonna be the best diplomat/smooth talker here :P
You also don't technically have to make use of dual identity. Social talents require you to be in social identity, but using vigilante talents in social identity just risks exposing you. If everyone already knows, there's no risk (you just lose the protection from divinations that dual identity gives, which puts you on the same playing field as every other class out there).
And there's lots to make the class worth it even if you're ignoring dual identity completely. It's one of those classes (bard and oracle are two others for me) that can work with just about any character concept, especially when you mix the spellcasting archetypes in.
I really appreciated this aspect of the class, myself, and the thread that came up around it. It's nice that you can play an Indiana/Dr. Jones or a Tony Stark/Iron Man with no real repercussions if that's what you'd like to do (or if you just don't want to be bothered trying to keep up appearances.)
There's a few things I find a tad extraneous (required dual identity), but aside from some minor issues that can be overlooked, I think the class as a whole is a very great addition to the game, and it's becoming my favorite mundane class.I actually think that Dual Identity is a great feature to add social abilities/skills to classes that lack them.
Your typical fighter or rogue isn't gonna be the best diplomat/smooth talker here :P
You also don't technically have to make use of dual identity. Social talents require you to be in social identity, but using vigilante talents in social identity just risks exposing you. If everyone already knows, there's no risk (you just lose the protection from divinations that dual identity gives, which puts you on the same playing field as every other class out there).
And there's lots to make the class worth it even if you're ignoring dual identity completely. It's one of those classes (bard and oracle are two others for me) that can work with just about any character concept, especially when you mix the spellcasting archetypes in.
It's true that you can ignore the Social identity, but it offers a LOT of useful features ;)
Furthermore, you can reveal yourself to the other party members, but I'd say you can have some fun trying to hide it from other XD
I personally love dual identity, too - I will play my Bellflower tiller halfling one day. ;) I was merely offering answer to N. Jolly's ever-so-slight dismay that it was required, since ignoring it becomes essentially the same as not having it.
Warrior of the Holy Light paladin is pretty good, you still get your smite evil, amazing saves, immunities lay on hands etc, you just trade out spells for an AOE buff thing and more uses of lay on hands, it's a bit weaker than the normal paladin, but still pretty good.
I trust Ssalarn's numbers, but he failed to emphasize that the vigilante is pretty much bound to his milieu. Dual Identity is not an extraneous bit of fluff, it is core to the concept. The consequences of exposure is a whole lot more than losing your scry defense. You are exposed to your enemies, powerful enemies who WILL go to stupid lengths to destroy you, they will attack you on every front, your resources, your allies, and any other way they can hurt you. Also, kind of cutting into the class's evident adaptability is the Mission. Yes, the Vigilante would be the perfect adventurer, except that he is bound to his milieu. Why he is involved in the adventure isn't fluff for this class, it is core. If there is no reason to be there, then this class just should not be there.
Ignoring the milieu unbalances the class. It is the same as ignoring the alignment (etc) restrictions of a paladin, the metal restrictions for a Druid, and anything like that.
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Where do you get powerful enemies as a class feature? Wouldn't the Barbarian's loved ones also be getting their throats slit in the night under the same circumstances? You can play a Druid who wears metal armor, and the rules say what you lose. You'd still have your animal companion and almost all of your minor class abilities like wild empathy. Nobody does that because giving up nine-level casting and bonus shapeshifting isn't worth metal armor. But losing scrying defense and putting yourself at exactly the same risk as any other adventurer is really minor.
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I trust Ssalarn's numbers, but he failed to emphasize that the vigilante is pretty much bound to his milieu.
But... he isn't. A vigilante can just not take Renown and all you lose for sacrificing your dual identity is the protection it gives.
Yes, you'll have powerful enemies, at least eventually, but wizards and barbarians who adventure enough have powerful enemies too.
Also, kind of cutting into the class's evident adaptability is the Mission. Yes, the Vigilante would be the perfect adventurer, except that he is bound to his milieu. Why he is involved in the adventure isn't fluff for this class, it is core. If there is no reason to be there, then this class just should not be there.
It's not that difficult to come up with a reason why someone would want to go on an adventure though, so that's hardly holding anything back and, again isn't really a class specific problem either.
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Overall, Vigilante is my go-to martial now. Avenger Psychometrist is really nice- enchance your weapons and get flight on full BAB. I like the gauntlet/spiked gauntlet style from Armor Master's Handbook, since you can get Bane to offense and defense with it at the same time.
From notes to th GM: (It's even on the SRD)
Being a renowned hero can be dangerous to your health and prosperity. Fighting against corruption and the evil that lurks within society makes you a target and, even worse, puts your friends and family in danger. For those who must maintain a social persona, being a part of the greater community while secretly fighting against powerful forces within it requires leading a double life.
By day, the vigilante maneuvers through society, dealing with other nobles or influential individuals. By night, he dons a disguise and an utterly different set of goals, taking the fight to his foes and solving problems with a blade when words will not suffice.
Game Masters should consider carefully whether or not a vigilante will make for a good fit with their campaign. The class is one that requires a degree of social aptitude and roleplaying to make full use of its potential.
Campaigns that focus more on wilderness exploration, travel, or dungeon delving and that are lighter on politics, negotiation, and manipulation might require a vigilante player to put in additional effort to make full use of his class features. Alternatively, a vigilante is uniquely suited to make for a powerful villain, hidden by day behind a mask of civility and a terror at night, free to commit terrible acts without risking discovery.
For players, the vigilante offers a unique opportunity to take on the role of a character with a hidden side, and whose life is committed to a secret agenda that he must struggle to advance in a complex world. Not every problem can be solved with a dagger in the dark, and even the most stubborn foe might be become an ally with the proper bribe. For the vigilante, these tasks are both within reach as long as you learn to properly use your dual nature and hidden skills to your fullest advantage.
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That says a vigilante player might have 'to put in additional efort to make full use of his class features' in certain camapgins, not 'never let someone play a vigilante unless the game focuses around their dual identity dynamic'.
So, not seeing a problem.
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That says a vigilante player might have 'to put in additional efort to make full use of his class features' in certain camapgins, not 'never let someone play a vigilante unless the game focuses around their dual identity dynamic'.
So, not seeing a problem.
One of the first Vigilante concepts I thought of was an "Army Ranger" type character who really doesn't care about whether or not people know who he is. He uses Renown and options like "Celebrity Discount" because he's a known war hero and his people respect him for it. He can have a Safe House that's his "tactical operations" base and still benefits from its protections against scrying inside of it regardless of whether or not his secret identity is known. When it comes time to fight, Lawful Good Joe the upstanding citizen can put his game face on and become Lawful Neutral stone-faced-killer Joe who does whatever it takes to keep his people safe.
There are a lot of ways to manipulate the dual identities to your advantage that don't require keeping secrets from your party, or even keeping secrets at all.
If you stretch the concept of of dual identity so that there is no real consequence of exposure, how do you justify taking the advantages it provides?
Actually, I am falling into the Tactics vs Simulation trap myself. My bad, apologies, and I'm out.
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If you stretch the concept of of dual identity so that there is no real consequence of exposure, how do you justify taking the advantages it provides?
Because the consequence is just losing the advantage. If that advantage isn't necessary to your concept, then by definition the consequence is equally unimportant.
Actually, I am falling into the Tactics vs Simulation trap myself. My bad, apologies, and I'm out.
No you aren't. You're just talking to people who think the class is more flexible than you do. Don't try to frame the argument as something it's not.
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If you stretch the concept of of dual identity so that there is no real consequence of exposure, how do you justify taking the advantages it provides?
Dual identity is a big class feature that does lots of things. You may not need or want all the advantages it provides, so.if you choose not to keep your identity secret, you simply lose the benefits specifically associated with the identity being secret. There are even archetypes that get dual identity in its entirety that still note that most people will know the character's true identity, like the Masked Performer bard archetype.
Actually, I am falling into the Tactics vs Simulation trap myself. My bad, apologies, and I'm out.
I don't think there's anything simulation breaking about using dual identity as I discussed. In fact, I think that a military hero vigilante is super immersive, and in line with the classes intended function. For what it's worth, I mentioned the Army Ranger bit to Mark Seifter at PaizoCon and he said that being able to play a concept like that was a totally intended function of the class, so I don't think there's really any break from the intended use at all. Captain America was a vigilante with a secret identity known to basically everyone, no reason "Captain Andoran" couldn't be played the same way.
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If you stretch the concept of of dual identity so that there is no real consequence of exposure, how do you justify taking the advantages it provides?
Easily and without regret.
Vigilante is a perfect class to play a real skill-based sort of person. You don't even have to dip into your vigilante identity to take advantage of it if you don't want to. In fact, I see it as a good way to play a more traditional rogue with extra goodies if you don't care about the vigilante identity at all. I'll even give you the Social Talent breakdowns for how much they're affected by not really caring about keeping your identity a secret. For the record, I'm going in order of level.
Renown. Easily fluffed as getting to know the people in the community and leveraging them to your advantage. The intimidate bonus that it would give you in your vigilante identity (whcih you're virtually giving up) is really unimportant compared to the boost in diplomacy you'll get, which functions just fine in your social identity regardless.
Social Grace. If you don't care about going into your vigilante identity, you get free +4's to a wide variety of skills you get to choose. It's like a permanent OK roll on inspiration, like what an Investigator would have. Not anything too special, but not anything too bad, either.
Safe House. Oh look, you know how to set up a spot that stops scrying, like a wizard would. Except it's completely mundane, and doesn't care if you're in social or vigilante identity! Probably one of the coolest social talents in my mind, and one that can be really flavorful as well. You've probably just picked up some tricks to foil divination, like certain wards you can trace somewhere, the layout of a room, etc.
Gossip Collector. Oh joy, you know how to talk to people really well. You can just skip past all that boring small talk and get right to what you want to know!
Double Time. Not affected at all by not making use of your vigilante identity, as it only comes into its own based off of your civilian identity anyways. You're just able to work harder than other people, which is not entirely uncommon in Pathfinder anyways.
Case the Joint. Oh hey, you have to be in your social identity in the first place to make use of this anyways, and it says absolutely nothing about having to change identities in order to make use of the rerolls you get. You know, almost as if investigating a spot before you go there could help
Triumphant Return. You now know how to manipulate people better for your renown than you did before. Congrats. And it still doesn't care about you going into your vigilante identity at all.
Loyal Aid. Oh hey, it's Leadership Lite! Sure, they're not really actually useful in combat, but it's a fantastic way to get a support team. Again, doesn't care at all if you actually switch identities, and could easily just be some family help, loyal servants, etc.
Celebrity Discount. Hey, you're using that skill in manipulating people to get what you want again! Just tell that shopkeep they have pretty eyes or something, maybe distract them or use some fake money. Woo.
Mockingbird. Hey, there's monsters who already do this in the game! Hell, if a leucrotta can do it, why not just apply yourself a bit and figure it out yourself!
Many Guises. What's that? You're really, really good at disguising yourself? Almost like you've trained to blend into crowds without any problem to get closer to targets, or to seem as an entirely unobtrusive person? What are you, some kind of wizard?
In Vogue. Everyone has their hobbies. You're just really good at yours, and people recognize it. Add in your talent for manipulating others, and you're in good shape to upcharge your services a bit without anyone complaining.
Feign Innocence. Renown has already established that you have a penchant for manipulating people. This is just another natural conclusion of your skills in that regard.
Celebrity Perks. See above.
Quick Change. Our first talent that actually really needs the vigilante identity to have a use! Except if took Many Guises, in which case you're just even better at disguising yourself.
Great Renown See Renown.
Subjective Truth. Like Quick Change, this one is nice if you've taken Many Guises, and is just a natural extension of your ability to disguise yourself.
Everyman. And here's an upgrade to your skills from Many Guises. Hey, don't knock it. Those nobles use a lot of staff that you can now impersonate with ease!
Incredible Renown. See Renown.
Immediate Change. "See as I change into a wide variety of completely normal people virtually at will! Truly my mastery of disguise is a force to be reckoned with!"
Instant Recognition. So you really stand out to people, huh?
Any Guise. Welcome to why high-level vigilantes are absolutely terrifying in terms of society. They don't need to access world-sundering magics to reshape a nation. They just need to be the right person at the right time. This is their ability to enter and exit disguises taken to its logical conclusion, and to the height of skill.
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Great breakdown mourge40k. Mirrors my thoughts and opinions very closely.
I really, really like the fact that the vigilante gets such a high degree of narrative power. You get connections, reputation, discounts, allies, scry-proof safe haven locations, etc. You get non-magical abilities that are in some ways as good as magic while being thematically appropriate and effective, which is one of the main things I see people ask for in martial/caster disparity threads all the time. Bonus points, you get those abilities on a class that has a couple different ways of being awesome in combat before you even start looking at archetypes.
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I'm going to say the best Paizo class without spellcasting is the Alchemist.
What? It technically counts.
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I'm going to say the best Paizo class without spellcasting is the Alchemist.
What? It technically counts.
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I'm going to say the best Paizo class without spellcasting is the Alchemist.
What? It technically counts.
LOL! I actually thought about adding (or alchemy/infusions) to the title question, but decided against it. I personally still think of infusions as spellcasting, just in bottles, but you are technically correct (which I've been told is often the best kind of correct?).
As someone who's pretty famous for his opinions on martial/caster disparity issues, what do you think of the vigilante Anzyr?
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You are technically correct.I'm going to say the best Paizo class without spellcasting is the Alchemist.
What? It technically counts.
The best kind of correct!
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I trust Ssalarn's numbers, but he failed to emphasize that the vigilante is pretty much bound to his milieu. Dual Identity is not an extraneous bit of fluff, it is core to the concept. The consequences of exposure is a whole lot more than losing your scry defense. You are exposed to your enemies, powerful enemies who WILL go to stupid lengths to destroy you, they will attack you on every front, your resources, your allies, and any other way they can hurt you. Also, kind of cutting into the class's evident adaptability is the Mission. Yes, the Vigilante would be the perfect adventurer, except that he is bound to his milieu. Why he is involved in the adventure isn't fluff for this class, it is core. If there is no reason to be there, then this class just should not be there.
Ignoring the milieu unbalances the class. It is the same as ignoring the alignment (etc) restrictions of a paladin, the metal restrictions for a Druid, and anything like that.
Every other adventurer manages just fine with everyone knowing who they are, it's not like vigilantes are somehow drastically weaker and need to hide.
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I'm going to say the best Paizo class without spellcasting is the Alchemist.
What? It technically counts.
LOL! I actually thought about adding (or alchemy/infusions) to the title question, but decided against it. I personally still think of infusions as spellcasting, just in bottles, but you are technically correct (which I've been told is often the best kind of correct?).
As someone who's pretty famous for his opinions on martial/caster disparity issues, what do you think of the vigilante Anzyr?
My impression is mixed.
Let me start with what I think it got 100% right. What I like most about the class is the fact that a lot of it's talents actually scale with level. You only need to take the Evasive Talent to eventually get Improved Evasion at 12th. This is absolutely fantastic and more classes/abilities/feats should be designed like this. The second thing I'm glad to see is that some abilities that grant a feat plus some additional bonuses with that feat (Lethal Grace) allow you pick a different feat in place of that one if you already have X feat. I'm not sure why this is only some of the abilities though, but it's a good step in the right direction.
On one hand, it is willing to give mundane classes some non-magical effects that allow it to overcome magic like Safe House or Many Guises, which humorously enough allows the Vigilante to overcome magic trying to find them by literally being *very* mundane. On the other hand, it's pretty conservative about these effects and they are almost purely regulated to the social section, with Returning Weapon as an exception.
That being said it has a flexible chassis giving you different directions to work towards, 6+ INT skill points, 2 good saves (one of which is WILL!) and has abilities that enhance both it's social and combat abilities that scale with level. So a definite step forward, if not as far as I would like.
(In fairness, to achieve the kind functionality I would like martials to have, they would have to implement some kind maneuver system a la ToB/PoW or drastically redefine how martial combat happens in some way.)
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Every other adventurer manages just fine with everyone knowing who they are, it's not like vigilantes are somehow drastically weaker and need to hide.I trust Ssalarn's numbers, but he failed to emphasize that the vigilante is pretty much bound to his milieu. Dual Identity is not an extraneous bit of fluff, it is core to the concept. The consequences of exposure is a whole lot more than losing your scry defense. You are exposed to your enemies, powerful enemies who WILL go to stupid lengths to destroy you, they will attack you on every front, your resources, your allies, and any other way they can hurt you. Also, kind of cutting into the class's evident adaptability is the Mission. Yes, the Vigilante would be the perfect adventurer, except that he is bound to his milieu. Why he is involved in the adventure isn't fluff for this class, it is core. If there is no reason to be there, then this class just should not be there.
Ignoring the milieu unbalances the class. It is the same as ignoring the alignment (etc) restrictions of a paladin, the metal restrictions for a Druid, and anything like that.
I don't agree with Daw's opinion but the Vigilante implies he has a lot bigger support group than just his friends and family.
That guy who did a favor for you? Kidnapped.
That merchant who was giving you favorable discounts? Brutally murdered.
City Guardsman tipping you off to potential criminals and keeping the guard out of your hair? Framed and disgracefully dismissed.
A BBEG with a vendetta and a information network WILL learn about these normal folks who stuck their neck out for our Vigilante. They were able to help with your short term problems, but they don't have the skills nor protective powers of your party to keep them from danger if a BBEG wants to use them against you.
Just food for thought. Obviously a GM who beats you over the head with this stuff would be lame but as a Vigilante you SHOULD worry a little bit about the "little folks."
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I don't agree with Daw's opinion but the Vigilante implies he has a lot bigger support group than just his friends and family.
If that was a risk, then people would consider leadership or contacts to be a risk. Having allies isn't really a risk, especially since unless you're a murderhobo, you probably have some individuals the DM can use as puppets to motivate you via kidnapping/death/etc.
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I don't agree with Daw's opinion but the Vigilante implies he has a lot bigger support group than just his friends and family.If that was a risk, then people would consider leadership or contacts to be a risk. Having allies isn't really a risk, especially since unless you're a murderhobo, you probably have some individuals the DM can use as puppets to motivate you via kidnapping/death/etc.
Agreed. Most PCs end up with a network of contacts and feats like Leadership or rogue talents that give contacts already exist; the vigilante is just better at leveraging his contacts.
Besides, if the vigilante did have someone start hunting down known affiliates, he's also got the tools to disguise himself as a known affiliate and lay a trap for whomever was foolish enough to go after his allies. That farmer you thought you could stick a knife in for once leaving his cart in the road blocking some yakuza from catching the vigilante? He's on his way to a new town with a sack of gold, and that guy pulling the cart is the vigilante. Big bellied butcher whose wife once stitched up the vigilante after a rough fight? Vigilante in a fat suit, the butcher is vacationing with his wife at an inn on the other side of the city. Really, the vigilante is ridiculously well equipped to punish people who go after his own.
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Don't get me wrong. I think utilizing the dual-identity is absolutely fantastic. I had a bard/fighter/spymaster some years ago in a city-based Eberron campaign would would have ADORED the vigilante class. Socialite by day, agent for House Phiarlan by night. I basically cobbled together a weaker version of the vigilante. He even kept the fact that he was secretly a Phiarlan agent secret from his friends and family, and went with the old, "I'm sorry, I'm too busy to help you tonight... but I know a guy," routine.
That said, I also love the fact that you can choose to not play with the dual identity if you choose to or if it's inappropriate for the campaign. As the blurb said, some DM's or adventures aren't going to be able to be bothered. So, lose a nice little class buff and move on with your adventuring career.
As I said, I see this kind of vigilante as your classic Dr. Jones/Indiana Jones. Sure, by day, he's kindly Dr. Jones, professor of Archaeology. While he's doing his day job, he's no threat to his enemies, and they really don't have a reason to go out of their way to come after him. But when he puts on the hat and coat and grabs his bullwhip - well, Indiana is another thing entirely. And there's nothing at all saying that his students aren't aware of his expeditions. We know for a fact that the faculty does - the dean is often implicit in them! And, well, being Indiana's friend does tend to make things a little... shall we say exciting?
So yeah, I don't see any problem whatsoever with abandoning your dual identity.
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Vigilante in a fat suit, the butcher is vacationing with his wife at an inn on the other side of the city.
Now I've just got this image of a vigilante going through all of his adventures in this ridiculous fat suit, then, at the end of an AP, when the last baddy is down, he finally drops it, and his whole team is all, "W-wwwhhhhaaaaaaaa~!?" and he's all, "Oh, this? Yeah, sorry, I forgot - I needed it to wear that belt from Doofus the Fat we got in that first adventure. ... what?"
Really, the vigilante is ridiculously well equipped to punish people who go after his own.
Would you say that they'd be... avenged?!
(•_•) ( •_•)>⌐■-■ (⌐■_■) YEEEEEEAAAAAHHH~!
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A BBEG with a vendetta and a information network WILL learn about these normal folks who stuck their neck out for our Vigilante. They were able to help with your short term problems, but they don't have the skills nor protective powers of your party to keep them from danger if a BBEG wants to use them against you.
This will happen with literally every other class as well. It's just the nature of being an adventurer. You make enemies. The Vigilante has no real incentive to keep his guise up unless the player wants to.
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Wolverine's secret identity, such as it was, wasn't particularly secret either. Frank Castle didn't even bother with a mask.There are a lot of examples of heroes giving up a secret identity, or not havinv one
Steve rogers, tony stark, and soldier 76(imo)
Wolverine had a secret identity but then he forgot what it was.
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Wolverine had a secret identity but then he forgot what it was.Wolverine's secret identity, such as it was, wasn't particularly secret either. Frank Castle didn't even bother with a mask.There are a lot of examples of heroes giving up a secret identity, or not havinv one
Steve rogers, tony stark, and soldier 76(imo)
I't so secret that even HE doesn't know about it. Now that's security!
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I't so secret that even HE doesn't know about it. Now that's security!Wolverine had a secret identity but then he forgot what it was.Wolverine's secret identity, such as it was, wasn't particularly secret either. Frank Castle didn't even bother with a mask.There are a lot of examples of heroes giving up a secret identity, or not havinv one
Steve rogers, tony stark, and soldier 76(imo)
He must have taken the Nameless One feat, then forgot his mask somewhere.
(As a sidenote, the Nameless One feat contains language clearly spelling out how it interacts with established vigilante identities and contains no mention or warning that a vigilante who takes the feat loses access to their class features. So again, rolling with one identity should be perfectly fine. In fact, Nameless One is a good way to keep some of your nondetection benefits while maintaining only a single "identity", such as it is.)
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Renown. Easily fluffed as getting to know the people in the community and leveraging them to your advantage. The intimidate bonus that it would give you in your vigilante identity (whcih you're virtually giving up) is really unimportant compared to the boost in diplomacy you'll get, which functions just fine in your social identity regardless.
I never thought of it that way...I'd always regarded the renown talents as something inaccessible to public vigilantes, flavor-wise. That's a good way to reconcile the two! Now I'm thinking of a lucha libre style PC that is both public and really flamboyant, so he has fans following him around even when he's fighting crime. XD
There are a lot of examples of heroes giving up a secret identity, or not havinv one
Steve rogers, tony stark, and soldier 76(imo)
I think Soldier 76 is more the other way around: he gave up his social identity. Still has the renown from it, though.
On topic: I'm constantly going back and forth with the Vigilante. The Avenger is very well designed and implemented - it's easily my favorite full-BAB "class" - but it's the only specialization that really stands out to me.
To make the Vigilante a truly outstanding non-caster, I think we need two things in the future:
1) An archetype that replaces all social identity stuff with conventional bonuses. I like Dual Identity, but I can understand why so many people are balking at it - it's a bit of enforced flavor that doesn't work with a lot of character ideas. Including some characters we'd otherwise classify as "vigilantes".
2) More archetypes that don't replace your spec! Psychometrist is a really interesting addon; I'd like to see more archetypes that give the Stalker and Avenger some love rather than more caster-alikes.
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A BBEG with a vendetta and a information network WILL learn about these normal folks who stuck their neck out for our Vigilante. They were able to help with your short term problems, but they don't have the skills nor protective powers of your party to keep them from danger if a BBEG wants to use them against you.This will happen with literally every other class as well. It's just the nature of being an adventurer. You make enemies. The Vigilante has no real incentive to keep his guise up unless the player wants to.
Going to put my money where my mouth is and play just such a character. He'll stay in social guise for Pathfinder briefings and investigation, then vigilante up right in front of his team when it is time to hit the dungeon. We'll see how it goes.
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For what it's worth, I'm having a blast in PFS with my avenger vigilante (wildsoul arachnid). Full disclosure: I started him at level 6 having built him out GM credits.
I can't speak to the other archtypes, but having played this one several times, he just oozes flavor. I was surprised how few feats he needed to feel "dungeon ready." Power attack and Great Fortitude and away we go. Then I threw in Improved Initiative and Step Up for some speed and mobility. Then pumped acrobatics, perception and diplomacy.
The related vigilante talents are great. He's human so I got the darkvision talent. Then the slayer/spider-sense talent. Then the web shooters talent (ranged touch entangle). Lastly, I bought a pair of red spider-step slippers to match his spandex...
He literally does whatever a spider can! And the one-liners just write themselves during a session ("Stick around!" Eat your heart out, Stan Lee).
I'm not completely enamored with the social talents. Mockingbird is pretty good. I still can't figure out why En Vogue is legal when its prerequisite is not.
But that's a minor nitpick. This is my favorite martial class so far. And it works for PFS better than I thought.
"With great plunder comes great responsibility."
- The ArachKnight