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30 is the highest published CR that I'm aware of for first-party products. Gods in Pathfinder don't have stats, so therefore they don't have CRs either (because if it has stats, it can be killed). Gods do exactly what the GM says they do, whatever that thing may be.
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Lucifer is not something that is part of Paizo's setting, so I guess you are talking about some third party stuff that goes beyond the restiction Paizo uses for their game, such as "no stats for deities", or the CR30 limit.
I guess you're on your own there, and this thread belongs into the third-party/homebrew section of the from.
Edit: comfirmed that this refers to a statblock from Frog God Games' Tome of Horrors Complete. (I guess that's what happens when people browse d20pfsrd.com without realizing that it's not Paizo's site and assume everything there is part of official Pathfinder. Sigh. They really need to make the third party stuff even more obvious.)
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Lucifer isn't even all that. SR 50 can be beaten, Will 38 can be beaten and he's not immune to mind-effecting, which can be fun. Doesn't even have Protection from Good up constantly. Touch AC is only 38 so souped-up Enchanters and Gunslingers can take him.
The real deities don't have stats. If Rovagug had stats there would be queues of Paladins taking turns at kicking his head in.
Rovagug isn't stated. And for a good reason. Gods could not kill him, gods who are far stronger than 20th level mortals with 10 Mythic tiers, what chance do we have?
Gods aren't as imaginative as humanoids. Humans have created new spells that not even gods have perceived before (or they wouldn't be new spells).
Just because it's new doesn't mean it's something more powerful than what gods wield. Just because it's new doesn't mean it will be able to stop a god. It's already impossible to kill Rovagug's pet with our humanoid imagination.
Also, I do belive some would object, heavily, if you tried to enter Rovagug's prison. You probably shouldn't risk letting him out.
Name a pet that can't be defeated.
Sure, Tarrasque is just defeated not killed usually, but it says it is possible. Thus, new ways are the way to kill it.
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Lucifer isn't even all that.
And that's probably one major reason why Paizo doesn't do CR beyond 30. Because expectations about a monster's strength skyrocket at high CRs, some players expect it to be basically unbeatable. But monsters exist to be beaten, and some weaknesses are part of this.
Theoretically, it's possible to improve a CR 30 creature (or something lower) by usual means: Add HD, add class levels, add templates. But my gut feeling is that the result won't justify the new CR, because of limited synergy with the existing strong powers...
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Lucifer isn't even all that.And that's probably one major reason why Paizo doesn't do CR beyond 30. Because expectations about a monster's strength skyrocket at high CRs, some players expect it to be basically unbeatable. But monsters exist to be beaten, and some weaknesses are part of this.
Theoretically, it's possible to improve a CR 30 creature (or something lower) by usual means: Add HD, add class levels, add templates. But my gut feeling is that the result won't justify the new CR, because of limited synergy with the existing strong powers...
Yeah... either you make it beatable by some stretch of the imagination, your you give it so many numbers that you are just wasting paper since it is obviously a TPK if he even breathes on the party.
It is just impossible to find a balance at that level. High level is already rocket tag- either you trivialize it with a billion damage or a 9th level mind control, or it wipes you out.
So why bother with the disappointment, and just make gods macguffins you only interact with when you are their errand boy or you are looking for the sealing macguffin.
Ctulhu, Pazuzu, Nocticula and Cernunnos are CR 30, higher than that would be the most powerful Demon Lords, Empyreal Lords, and then gods, that I (personally) would give an infinite CR, stats, and HP.
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While I agree with other posters that gods probably shouldn't have stats, I disagree that that is equivalent to infinite CR.
Some gods shouldn't have stats for thematic reasons-as soon as you give Ctulhu a health bar, even if it has a hundred billion HP, it means that Ctulhu has health. Anything that has health can be beaten(this is ingrained deeply in the mind of the player), and the fact that it has a hundred billion HP just means it will be really really hard. And trust me, no matter how hard you make something, these dirty monkeys will find a way to do it. It was thought that moon was unreachable, but here we are.
Heck, fact that it is hard might just make them strive for it more.
But Ctulhu, as he was written by Lovecraft, is unbeatable. That's his whole stick, you can't stop Ctulhu, just hope he won't notice you and go back to sleep. Therefore, Ctulhu can't have any health bar, or it loses immersive power.
Some gods shouldn't have stats because you can't truly fight them. It would be like giving a health pool to a hurricane-kinda silly. That does not, however, mean that they are unbeatable-a high-level Druid can probably stop three separate tornadoes before breakfast.
Finally, some gods should absolutely have stats, like gods with a single known corporeal personification. Rovagug is a good example of this, actually. Granted, his stats should be through the roof, but still quite finite. Because, you see, a PC with 20 levels is pretty much already as strong as a god, and at that point they should tackle the sorts of problems the gods tackle-like how to kill Rovagug.
There were a bunch of threads over the years where people compared the things a lv20 wizard can do to those usually attributed to gods-splitting a sea in half, making it rain blood, and so on, with wizard being easilly able to do everything. When you bring mythic tiers into the discussion, picture becomes even more clear.
An Archmage with 10MR can stop time for as long as he wants.
A Trickster can see anything in the universe-from the tiniest spots on the surface fo the sun to the color of scales on the head of Ctulhu back on earth.
A Champion can shoot that Ctulhu all the way from Golarion.
I am truly unsure what other things a character has to be able to do to be classified as a god for all intents and purposes. Have a following, maybe? Well that is possible too, with Leadership. Grant spells? I believe mythic rules have that covered.
P.s.
>It's already impossible to kill Rovagug's pet with our humanoid imagination.
Are you talking about a tarrasque? Disregarding for a second that there are literally scores of different ways to defeat it, killing it for good is remarkably easy. First, you slay it with a death effect. Now, because of the quirky way it's regeneration functions, tarrasque is actually dead for three rounds. This makes it's corpse a valid target for a create undead scroll, which is exactly what you use on it. Finally, since Tarrasque is currently undead, it can't rise from the dead two rounds later. It's regeneration effect fails, and it is now dead forever.
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Because, you see, a PC with 20 levels is pretty much already as strong as a god
No. That's just wrong - Gods may not show their power, and they do have differing levels of power (see: Many gods died to take down Rovagug) but all true gods - not demigods - are considerably more powerful than PCs. By a truly huge amount - demigods can be CR 30, and they are more powerful than any PC, albeit they can be taken down by one. Gods are orders of magnitude above demi-gods - any true god is so powerful stats are meaningless for PC vs god combat, as the god will win no matter what, in one round.
I could agree with statting gods, if we were dealing with god vs god combat, but that seems overly niche.
Because, you see, a PC with 20 levels is pretty much already as strong as a godNo. That's just wrong - Gods may not show their power, and they do have differing levels of power (see: Many gods died to take down Rovagug) but all true gods - not demigods - are considerably more powerful than PCs. By a truly huge amount - demigods can be CR 30, and they are more powerful than any PC, albeit they can be taken down by one. Gods are orders of magnitude above demi-gods - any true god is so powerful stats are meaningless for PC vs god combat, as the god will win no matter what, in one round.
I could agree with statting gods, if we were dealing with god vs god combat, but that seems overly niche.
Is that so? A Mantis God, an actual deity, is CR 30. He is so powerful that other gods(true gods) are afraid of him. Would you be afraid of someone who is orders of magnitude less powerful than you? No. Therefore he is close in power to actual gods. And he is very easy to kill for a supposedly CR 30 creature.
Lucifer is not something that is part of Paizo's setting, so I guess you are talking about some third party stuff that goes beyond the restiction Paizo uses for their game, such as "no stats for deities", or the CR30 limit.
I guess you're on your own there, and this thread belongs into the third-party/homebrew section of the from.
That was a problem with old d&d (unless you are playing Planescape). Everything was stated, so the PCs would try to kill it
Mantis god isnt a god.
That just god creation serve as assasin. With CR30.
I never said he was a god, I said he was a deity. It's right under his image on the wiki.
But Ctulhu, as he was written by Lovecraft, is unbeatable. That's his whole stick, you can't stop Ctulhu, just hope he won't notice you and go back to sleep. Therefore, Ctulhu can't have any health bar, or it loses immersive power.
Eh, he looks that way, in his own context, but notsomuch in PF's. That's the thing with Cthulu - he never quite lives up to his own hype.
Because, you see, a PC with 20 levels is pretty much already as strong as a god
No. That's just wrong - Gods may not show their power, and they do have differing levels of power (see: Many gods died to take down Rovagug) but all true gods - not demigods - are considerably more powerful than PCs. By a truly huge amount - demigods can be CR 30, and they are more powerful than any PC, albeit they can be taken down by one. Gods are orders of magnitude above demi-gods - any true god is so powerful stats are meaningless for PC vs god combat, as the god will win no matter what, in one round.
I could agree with statting gods, if we were dealing with god vs god combat, but that seems overly niche.
JJ has previously noted that they're "supposed" to be about CR 36-or-so (unless I'm badly mis-remembering something).
Also, things like demon lords overcame and killed a god, and, in a later incident, the gods had a fear-conference about 'em getting worse, 'till Calistria turned said Demon Lords against each other (See: Lamasthu/Desna's history), so too many orders of magnitudes doesn't make too much sense (though it can to an extent).
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I never said he was a god, I said he was a deity. It's right under his image on the wiki.Mantis god isnt a god.
That just god creation serve as assasin. With CR30.
That's a legacy thing that got retconned with Pathfinder becoming its own game. Those are no longer the stats for the deity, they are the stats for a far weaker avatar of said deity.
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I just assumed that since the max power level of a demon lord/archdevil/empyreal lord is 30, a pathfinder deity would be CR31+. I already consider creatures/PCs that are about CR 18+ to already be godlike. When there are creatures that are relatively invulnerable to most physical/energy attacks, that can fly, change weather, resurrect others, teleport, lift giant objects, able to regenerate from dust, and live forever, I think it's pretty easy to use them as a stand-in for a deity. Especially creatures with miracle/wish, as the power level of these spells is only limited by the GM, because if the GM wanted to those spells can literally do anything, according to RAW.
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I just assumed that since the max power level of a demon lord/archdevil/empyreal lord is 30, a pathfinder deity would be CR31+. I already consider creatures/PCs that are about CR 18+ to already be godlike. When there are creatures that are relatively invulnerable to most physical/energy attacks, that can fly, change weather, resurrect others, teleport, lift giant objects, able to regenerate from dust, and live forever, I think it's pretty easy to use them as a stand-in for a deity. Especially creatures with miracle/wish, as the power level of these spells is only limited by the GM, because if the GM wanted to those spells can literally do anything, according to RAW.
While largely true, Pathfinder makes a distinction between "god-like" and true deities. This shows with the wording of several effects that reference wish and miracle. Often there is a line to the effect of "Not even wish or miracle can restore a victim..." or "Nothing short of the direct intervention of a deity can...". There is a clear separation of "mortal magic", including wish and miracle, and the power of a true deity. Some effects even reference being unaffected by mortal magic.
Most mortals in the setting are just so far below those power levels that the difference is moot. Either way, these are powers beyond even their hope of commanding. In effect, it doesn't matter if one thing can kill you three times over, but this other can kill you ten times over; either way you are most certainly dead.
The major character in Golarion of Razmir plays on this. I believe I've seen him statted as a 19th level wizard, which is good enough to convince most people that he is a deity. He is still a (quite) killable mortal, even for all of his power and influence.
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But Ctulhu, as he was written by Lovecraft, is unbeatable. That's his whole stick, you can't stop Ctulhu, just hope he won't notice you and go back to sleep. Therefore, Ctulhu can't have any health bar, or it loses immersive power.
So he less has a health bar, and more of a motivation bar.
"Eh, I'll clean up this place tomorrow after I wake up"
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But Ctulhu, as he was written by Lovecraft, is unbeatable. That's his whole stick, you can't stop Ctulhu, just hope he won't notice you and go back to sleep. Therefore, Ctulhu can't have any health bar, or it loses immersive power.So he less has a health bar, and more of a motivation bar.
"Eh, I'll clean up this place tomorrow after I wake up"
Pretty much.
>There is a clear separation of "mortal magic", including wish and miracle, and the power of a true deity. Some effects even reference being unaffected by mortal magic.
And a lot of mythic effects do that too, to the point where mythic spells cast on non-mythic opponents completely obliterate them without even allowing a save. Actually, the more I think about it, the more deities seem just like normal humans with mythic ranks.
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Except that even having 10 mythic tiers doesn't even begin to approach some of the things that a genuine deity can do. XD Although it does help if you start adding 3.5's Salient Divine Abilities to the mix...
Can you give an example of a thing a deity in pathfinder is capable of, yet a lv 20 character with 10 mythic ranks can't possibly do?
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Deities can perform Divine Intervention (Core Rulebook, page 402), which is basically "Change the plot however they feel like".
That isn't a description of a "Thing they can do that sufficiently powerful characters can't" though. An example would be, like, "In such and such AP a god froze a volcano, and there is no spell that would freese a volcano" or something similar.
EDIT: Also, a lv20 wizard MR 10 Archmage does that every day before breakfast.
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Except that even having 10 mythic tiers doesn't even begin to approach some of the things that a genuine deity can do. XD Although it does help if you start adding 3.5's Salient Divine Abilities to the mix...Can you give an example of a thing a deity in pathfinder is capable of, yet a lv 20 character with 10 mythic ranks can't possibly do?
Not lose in combat to a level 20 opponent. The mythic character will likely win, but his victory is not guaranteed. That deity will not lose to a mere mortal.
edit: I will phrase it this way---->Defeat the level 20 character 1000000 times straight with 0 chance of losing.
Except that even having 10 mythic tiers doesn't even begin to approach some of the things that a genuine deity can do. XD Although it does help if you start adding 3.5's Salient Divine Abilities to the mix...Can you give an example of a thing a deity in pathfinder is capable of, yet a lv 20 character with 10 mythic ranks can't possibly do?Not lose in combat to a level 20 opponent. The mythic character will likely win, but his victory is not guaranteed. That deity will not lose to a mere mortal.
edit: I will phrase it this way---->Defeat the level 20 character 1000000 times straight with 0 chance of losing.
1. be a diviner wizard
2. hijack the surprise round because you are awesome
3. cast Mythic Time Stop, which, when augmented, lasts for 20 hours.
4. Spend those 20 hours covering your enemy in a giant pile of gunpowder
5. as the spell ends, throw a delayed fireball into the mix
6. win
Alternatively, do something else that would kill the enemy. With 20 hours of preparation there is hardly anything you can't do.
I am sure that there are similar unstoppable builds for Path of War enabled mythic martials, but I am not nearly as well-versed in that.
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1. be a diviner wizard2. hijack the surprise round because you are awesome
3. cast Mythic Time Stop, which, when augmented, lasts for 20 hours.
4. Spend those 20 hours covering your enemy in a giant pile of gunpowder
5. as the spell ends, throw a delayed fireball into the mix
6. win
1. Okay.
2. Deity hijacks your hijack of the surprise round, and goes first.
3. Deity either counterspells and negates your casting of Mythic Time Stop (whether or not the rules allow it), or proceeds to act normally during your supposedly stopped time.
4. Deity is immune to gunpowder.
5. Deity is immune to fire. (For that matter, a lot of things that aren't deities are immune to fire.)
6. Lose.
Did you read the original question? It was about a level 20 character against a lv20 mr10 character, not a deity against a lv20mr10.
As for the rest of your points, I would like to see you provide some sort of citation to support your claim that a deity can do that.
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How about:
"A god’s ability to influence planes and creatures is far beyond the comprehension of mortal beings" or
"confrontation between beings of near-infinite power could destroy entire worlds and still end in a draw".
Is that enough?
Well, not for Ashiel's Club Of People Who Take Rules A Bit Too Seriously. ;)
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JJ has previously noted that they're "supposed" to be about CR 36-or-so (unless I'm badly mis-remembering something).Also, things like demon lords overcame and killed a god, and, in a later incident, the gods had a fear-conference about 'em getting worse, 'till Calistria turned said Demon Lords against each other (See: Lamasthu/Desna's history), so too many orders of magnitudes doesn't make too much sense (though it can to an extent).
That does sound fair - orders of magnitude was likely an exaggeration, around one order seems fair. Whilst PCs are capable of defeating Demon Lords, I'd argue the Demon Lords are likely around an order of magnitude more powerful than the PCs, but the PCs outnumber them, and are specifically prepared for the fight. Would put it at about 100x difference between PCs and actual gods, which seems about right to be honest - Level 20 with 10 mythic ranks legitimately puts you near demigod status.
In a point that likely works against my argument more than for my argument, there is one example I know of where a mortal fought an actual true God and won - Saveth fighting Ydersius. She defeated a real deity, decapitated him, and brought him down to demigod status, though how she did this - whether there was help from Azlanti deities - is not known.
How about:
"A god’s ability to influence planes and creatures is far beyond the comprehension of mortal beings" or
"confrontation between beings of near-infinite power could destroy entire worlds and still end in a draw".
Is that enough?
"The ability of a level 20 character with 10 mythic tiers to influence planes and creatures is far beyond the comprehension of mortal beings"
"confrontation between level 20 characters with 10 mythic tiers could destroy entire worlds and still end in a draw"
By definition the confrontation cannot be above mortal comprehension, as they are MORTAL BEINGS that are involved in the confrontation. On top of that, I'm pretty sure there is no way for a single level 20, 10 mythic tier PC to actually just explode worlds casually - if they can do it, it'd require a lot of preparation. But I haven't looked into the high-tier mythic rules in great depth, so I may be missing something :)
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By definition the confrontation cannot be above mortal comprehension, as they are MORTAL BEINGS that are involved in the confrontation. But I haven't looked into the high-tier mythic rules in great depth, so I may be missing something :)
10 mythic tier characters are not mortal, they stopped being mortal once they got the immortal power at their 9th mythic tier. Though once they get to 10 it makes them even more immortal, where to die you need to be killed via plot-device.
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How about:
"A god’s ability to influence planes and creatures is far beyond the comprehension of mortal beings" or
"confrontation between beings of near-infinite power could destroy entire worlds and still end in a draw".
Is that enough?
>"A god’s ability to influence planes and creatures is far beyond the comprehension of mortal beings"
That is basically saying "Gods are above what humans can do because they are above what humans can do", which is a cop out answer.
>"confrontation between beings of near-infinite power could destroy entire worlds and still end in a draw"
So, if I understand you correctly, someone has to be able to destroy the world while fighting their equal to be classified as divine? Well, I admit PCs can't do that. At worst they can decimate tens of square miles of the surface. However, please then explain why no gods "dare to oppose Mantis God openly":
The Mantis God has an uneasy relationship with most of Golarion's deities, as they do not approve of his heavy-handed purpose and methods. None dare to oppose him however, at least not openly.