swoosh |
tl;dr A number of bloodlines/spirits/mysteries/etc have options that do 1d6 + 1/2 level damage and they're so comically bad I cannot for the life of me understand what would possess Paizo to continue actually publishing them.
Why is this a thing?
Better to ask actually, why is this a formula that keeps coming up? It shows up a lot in various places as a low level power, usually for some blasting themed bloodline or spirit or whatever.
The thing is it's... really bad. It peaks at level 2, where it's roughly the same damage as a pistol, except less accurate because it can't be made masterwork and most of the classes that have these features are 1/2 BAB. That's.. almost okay. At least if you have the ranged version. If you've got a melee version of it that comparison is even less favorable.
So it starts out not super great but maybe usable if you really don't want to waste a spell and it's basically double the damage of acid splash so that's cool.
But the scaling. The scaling is abominable on these things. At level 10 it's going to do an average of 8.5 damage. At level 20 it's up to 13 and a half. Which using the Monster Stats by CR table means you're doing roughly 3.5% of an enemy's health on average with this thing. Basically there's a negligible difference between using this power or simply skipping your turn altogether.
Funny thing is the first time I read it I assumed that it actually meant the whole thing scaled every 2 levels. So at level 2 instead of 1d6+1 it's 2d6+2. At level 10 instead of 1d6+5 it's 5d6+5.
And you know what? If you calculate it that way it's still bad. Which I think really speaks to how horrific these class features are, that you could multiply its scaling by a factor of four and still have it underperform at nearly every level except 2.
But mistakes happen. Bad options get printed. That's life.
So the really damning thing here isn't that it happened. It's that it keeps happening over and over. Nearly every blasting themed caster option in the game has something like this. The shaman, printed in 2014, a full five years after the CRB first introduced this mechanic, has 1d6+ 1/2 level damage as its opening ability in the Flame, Wind, Waves and Stone spirits.
Despite every possible metric showing this option to be at best marginal and at worst actively detrimental.
Despite blasting bloodlines and options being considered bad in large part because this option is so bad they might as well not even get a class feature at that level at all.
Despite every guide you can find on any of these classes emphatically labeling such abilities as bad as possible.
It keeps happening. Over and Over. And I just don't understand... why?
At this point it's so obvious and so easily documental how substandard these abilities are that the only reasonable assumption has to be that Paizo actively dislikes blasting and puts abilities in to intentionally deter people.
I don't want to believe that Paizo is that malicious though, but I just can't understand why they'd keep adding these options into the game when they're so demonstrably bad.
Edit: Oh and the cherry on top of this all? Some of them, like the Bones shaman spirit ability or the Starsoul Sorcerer Bloodline level 1 power do 1d4 damage instead.
Which means someone actually decided that 1d6 damage was too strong an it needed to get toned down. Wow.
swoosh |
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Filler.
Filler works when it's an oracle revelation you're never going to take because who cares.
Filler really doesn't work though when it's one of your main special abilities for a specialization dedicated toward one of the worst spellcasting styles in the game.
But it doesn't cost a spell slot so it's OP though
This totally makes sense though and is obviously the answer silly me.
Lorewalker |
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The worst part is that it is lazy. I would much rather have a flavor ability, harmless fire aura, dancing tattoo, cold breath, etc, rather than a useless damage ability. For no other reason than to have something in the slot. I'm fine with fluff over mechanical advantage sometimes. But I'm not fine with purposefully useless mechanics.
swoosh |
swoosh wrote:Filler really doesn't work though when it's one of your main special abilities...Well there is your problem. You think school powers/bloodlines are main abilities rather than the dead-level-filling fluff they actually are.
Main might be the wrong word, but they're significant sources of what define and power you.
And I mean, when other bloodlines and spirits are getting familiars or full progression channel energy or animal companions it's pretty easy to still feel underwhelmed even if we don't quibble about how significant or not they're supposed to be.
The worst part is that it is lazy. I would much rather have a flavor ability, harmless fire aura, dancing tattoo, cold breath, etc, rather than a useless damage ability. For no other reason than to have something in the slot.
That's another thing I forgot to touch on, because you're absolutely right Lorewalker. The ability not only bad, but it's also incredibly boring and maybe even worse, a horrible example of copy-pasting.
I generalize the OP as much as I do because there are a dozen options that are all completely identical except for the damage type and range.
Lorewalker |
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Lorewalker wrote:I wonder what percentage of the game can be considered "purposefully useless mechanics".
But I'm not fine with purposefully useless mechanics.
Less than some would say, but more than you'd think of off the top of your head, I'd bet. You can count price over benefit for magic items in this category.
Lorewalker |
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Lorewalker wrote:But I'm not fine with purposefully useless mechanics.I would have preferred school powers to be at will instead of cantrips. It would have left them as something to do as your last option at low levels.
Nah, I love the at will cantrips. I wouldn't trade them out for a pure damage ability. I use detect magic too often, for one. And create water for putting out fires is fun. But the school powers as at will in addition, though, wouldn't be a bad place to start. I mean, that leaves it as a slightly better cantrip for one element(as that's usually how they work) and thus you won't cast it after 2nd or 3rd level... but that's how the damage cantrips work anyway. Still, I'd much rather have something that either scales in relevance or is just an interesting fluff rp power.
swoosh |
It's better than your cantrips. So it's a buffer giving you something better to do than be out of spells out to save your spells at early levels before you need to fall back on cantrip
Yeah, I acknowledge that they're an okay fallback at low levels when running out of spells is an issue and d6 damage isn't all that bad.
But again, my biggest problem with them is their scaling, which is some of the worst in the game. And also that they're really lazy copy-paste gimmicks that don't really add anything of value to the blaster anyways.
While making them at-will would be nice, 3+casting mod is pretty damn close to at will at most levels.
Lorewalker |
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It's better than your cantrips. So it's a buffer giving you something better to do than be out of spells out to save your spells at early levels before you need to fall back on cantrip
Then problem here is that a cantrip is a slot. When the damage cantrips are no longer relevant... you change the slot to something else. It, in a way, scales with your level in that you can change it. But the school power doesn't scale. It becomes useless for almost your entire career. Just dead-weight on the character sheet.
Lorewalker |
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I'd say a solid 15% of the game. Which may not SOUND like a lot, but it's generally the most used sort of mechanics, or at least things people WANT to do.
Combat Maneuvers, for instance. Or Feats without a chain attached.
Combat maneuvers... you mean the "your whole character better be designed around this or it will be nearly impossible... and even then you might only be pretty good at it" mechanic?
swoosh |
It's better than your cantrips. So it's a buffer giving you something better to do than be out of spells out to save your spells at early levels before you need to fall back on cantrip
Yeah, I acknowledge that they're an okay fallback at low levels when running out of spells is an issue and d6 damage isn't all that bad.
But again, my biggest problem with them is their scaling, which is some of the worst in the game. And also that they're really lazy copy-paste gimmicks that don't really add anything of value to the blaster either.
There are pretty good 1st level powers. Like the one from the teleportation subschool, I also like the one for the fey bloodline through It shoudl have been SU instead of sp.
That's the other part of the complaint. If all first level powers were weak and didn't scale that'd be one thing and all I could say is that elemental attacks are boring.
But they aren't. Arcane sorcerers get a familiar. Life shaman get full channel energy. Trade clerics can give themselves big bonuses to social skills and gain two feats worth of land speed.
Even if some of them aren't powerful they're at the very least thematic and often interesting. Either way it makes the damage powers just look gross by comparison.
Sundakan |
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Sundakan wrote:Combat maneuvers... you mean the "your whole character better be designed around this or it will be nearly impossible... and even then you might only be pretty good at it" mechanic?I'd say a solid 15% of the game. Which may not SOUND like a lot, but it's generally the most used sort of mechanics, or at least things people WANT to do.
Combat Maneuvers, for instance. Or Feats without a chain attached.
Yes.
And even then...build your character around Steal, Reposition, or Overrun. I dare you.
Lorewalker |
Lorewalker wrote:Nah, I love the at will cantrips. I wouldn't trade them out for a pure damage ability. I use detect magic too often, for one.That is part of the reason I don't like at will cantrips.
I think I might be fine with making cantrips no longer at will if you didn't need detect magic to decipher magic items. But, really, I've been fond of the at will cantrip.
Now, I can say that some school powers shouldn't be at will. Such as hand of the apprentice.Distant Scholar |
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And even then...build your character around Steal, Reposition, or Overrun. I dare you.
I did build an outline of a character built around Steal a while back. I ran out of feats; not because the character was as good at it as she needed to be, but because I ran out of feats that improved it.
Kalindlara Contributor |
GeneMemeScene |
D6/2 levels is generally considered a tolerable amount of damage. Especially for a single target RTA. It's not great, but it's also not obsolete as soon as you level up either.
The topic isn't referring to d6/2 levels like Kineticists or sneak attack. It refers to things that do 1d6 damage, plus 1/2 levels.
Devilkiller |
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In one of the many recent "extend the adventuring day" threads lately I suggested upping the damage on these abilities to 1d6 plus 1 per level (like 1d6+10 at 10th level). This obviously wouldn't satisfy swoosh, who feels that 5d6+5 would be insufficient at 10th level, but I feel like it might provide a little more incentive to use your caster's built in crossbow substitute.
If you want these abilities to be bottom of the barrel stuff folks use when they want to conserve spells (which seems to be the original intent) I think 1d6 plus 1 per level would make them a little better than they currently are without changing game balance measurably. If you want these abilities to compete with low level attack spells and stand out as noticeable aspects of the PC's arsenal then you'd probably need to amp them up to 1d6/level.
I guess the power level would be somewhere around Ring of Wizardry II if you assume that the PC wanted the ring to cast more low level attack spells (possibly not a bad assumption if that PC is a blaster?) To me that seems like a power up casters probably don't need. I suppose it might make some casters more willing to participate in another fight before resting though.
ryric RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32 |
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These abilities exist entirely so your caster doesn't have to resort to a crossbow at level 1 unless you want them to. That's pretty much their whole purpose. You're not meant to use them once you have enough spells to have staying power. They suck because they are a patch on a 3.5 problem. They are not intended to be useful past level 2 or so.
Ckorik |
Why do they have to do increased damage? The abilities that stay relevant throughout a carer tend to not be damage ones - instead why not put a rider on the damage that is thematic to the concept they come from?
Fire blast:
1d6 damage + 1 per 2 caster levels and the next fire spell is a -1 (plus 1 every 4 caster levels max 5) on the save made.
Or
1d6 damage +1 per 2 caster levels and the target can not use evasion on the next reflex save he makes...
Just tossing out ideas...
Azih |
Seems like this might be fixed by a Homebrew Feat that bumps up the progression to something you might consider meh instead of terrible? The second Feat in the chain could bump the damage again to something decent. The last feat in the chain, gated to level 16 or something, could make it a powerful option.
It's not like there's all that many caster specific feats, and expending some of them to specialize into a good blaster seems like a good way to go.
Fig |
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Perhaps outside the scope of this discussion, but doesn't Spheres of Power take care of much of this? Like the Kineticist, the effect is at-will, but can be altered (damage, secondary effects, etc) by spending other resources.
Again, I assume we are looking primarily at Paizo material and design philsophy, but there are existing solutions.
Scythia |
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These abilities exist entirely so your caster doesn't have to resort to a crossbow at level 1 unless you want them to. That's pretty much their whole purpose. You're not meant to use them once you have enough spells to have staying power. They suck because they are a patch on a 3.5 problem. They are not intended to be useful past level 2 or so.
Funny, I thought that was why Acid Splash existed.
KenderKin |
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I have used it at higher levels, but I am taking the weather domain
Storm Burst (Sp): As a standard action, you can create a storm burst targeting any foe within 30 feet as a ranged touch attack. The storm burst deals 1d6 points of nonlethal damage + 1 point for every two cleric levels you possess. In addition, the target is buffeted by winds and rain, causing it to take a –2 penalty on attack rolls for 1 round.
This is much better than most of the ones being discussed, because it is a ranged touch attack, potential knock out blow and makes the target have a minus 2 on the next attack roll.
Maybe this dynamic added to the other selections would be an improvement.....
GM 1990 |
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These abilities exist entirely so your caster doesn't have to resort to a crossbow at level 1 unless you want them to. That's pretty much their whole purpose. You're not meant to use them once you have enough spells to have staying power. They suck because they are a patch on a 3.5 problem. They are not intended to be useful past level 2 or so.
From a 1E background, I have no issues with those or the cantrips for this very reason. its about flavor not really function. once you've blown your best spells, you can use crossbow for higher damage-dice against a creatures normal AC, or your cantrip/school ability against their touch. But at least you can use magic for your attacks, its not 1 spell/lvl and then sling attacks.
Complaints about this are going to vary by player type. Someone more along the thespian lines who wants to role-play up the wizard being full-on magic user, and less concerned about comparing DPR with the power-gamer's PC is going to enjoy it, and not have less fun. Flip those player style though, and it becomes a problem because their effects compared to other spells, attack methods, and APL appropriate enemy stats becomes statistically irrelevant after a few levels.
GM style and encounters per day also play a role in whether this becomes an issue even for a more power-game inclined player type. If you're only seeing 1 or 2 encounters per day, that caster may need to dip into those abilities so infrequently that it isn't noticed. My current wizard in our RotRL AP uses them to extend his spell list (4th level at this point); I don't expect to use them much later in the game, but with pearls of power, etc I'd like to think I can fall back on 1st, 2d, and even 3rd level blast spells after I've used up my fast-balls.
If the idea is that after you've used your x level spells for the day, you should still have a DPR that keeps relatively close to say a fighter/barbarian/paladin/rogue-sneak-attack, and targets touch-attack which will nearly be 100% hit at higher levels....then house rule it up.
GM 1990 |
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Why do they have to do increased damage? The abilities that stay relevant throughout a carer tend to not be damage ones - instead why not put a rider on the damage that is thematic to the concept they come from?
Fire blast:
1d6 damage + 1 per 2 caster levels and the next fire spell is a -1 (plus 1 every 4 caster levels max 5) on the save made.Or
1d6 damage +1 per 2 caster levels and the target can not use evasion on the next reflex save he makes...
Just tossing out ideas...
Not bad conceptually. I would try to keep anything like this as an immediate affect though. PF combat is already so detailed, I wouldn't want to also have to remember, which enemy now had something that took affect on their next save vs x.
UnArcaneElection |
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The majority of the abilities being discussed are far weaker than a Kineticist's basic blast, only slightly better than a damage Cantrip(*), AND are limited uses per day.
(*)AND I have seen posts on these messageboards about already-legal ways to boost some of the damage Cantrips to do decent amounts of damage, whereas for these 1st level Bloodline/Arcane School ray abilities, you don't get any opportunity except the absurdly slow scaling with level.
swoosh |
These abilities exist entirely so your caster doesn't have to resort to a crossbow at level 1 unless you want them to. That's pretty much their whole purpose. You're not meant to use them once you have enough spells to have staying power. They suck because they are a patch on a 3.5 problem. They are not intended to be useful past level 2 or so.
I know that's why they exist, but that doesn't really change the point. They're still cruddy as all hell.
In fact I'd argue that actually makes it even worse. Because we're taking an already substandard casting style (blasting) and then loading it up with a power that everyone knows is terrible and just there as filler if you run out of spells.
That's the question the topic post was getting at. Why would you do that? Go out of your way to give an already mediocre build an absolutely terrible opening ability.
GM 1990 |
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ryric wrote:These abilities exist entirely so your caster doesn't have to resort to a crossbow at level 1 unless you want them to. That's pretty much their whole purpose. You're not meant to use them once you have enough spells to have staying power. They suck because they are a patch on a 3.5 problem. They are not intended to be useful past level 2 or so.I know that's why they exist, but that doesn't really change the point. They're still cruddy as all hell.
In fact I'd argue that actually makes it even worse. Because we're taking an already substandard casting style (blasting) and then loading it up with a power that everyone knows is terrible and just there as filler if you run out of spells.
That's the question the topic post was getting at. Why would you do that? Go out of your way to give an already mediocre build an absolutely terrible opening ability.
Is it really "terrible" in the first few levels though? How much damage does an opening ability need to be good enough for your game style?
A goblin has 6 hps for example, and CR1 monsters "avg" 15 (according to the PRD monster creation guide). You're targeting their touch AC, and on avg going to (1d6+1=4.5 damage) so, 30-50% of their HPs when you hit.
So its its doing more damage than magic missile, cantrips, and more likely to hit so more avg DPR than crossbow at early levels levels. Its also, doing the same avg DPR as PC with a long-bow. (1d8=4.5)
For me, that isn't terrible opening ability.
It doesn't scale, but many things don't, and are higher level casters underpowered(?). Maybe in some games/styles, so in those cases maybe your scaling of the d6 would be an easy implementable compromise for a house rule for when they're out of meta-magic'd AoE spells and still want to roll a hand-ful of dice each round (which is pretty fun for what its worth).
swoosh |
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Is it really "terrible" in the first few levels though? How much damage does an opening ability need to be good enough for your game style?
I've already acknowledged the damage is okay at very low levels. Comparable to a pistol without having to actually pay for one or pick up EWP. Cool. Ish.
But the scaling is beyond atrocious.
So we have an ability that scales from 'kind of okay if you have nothing else to do' to 'only slightly better than not taking your turn at all'. And again, on an already underwhelming style of spellcaster.
That's the thing, we're not talking about your traditional rule the world ninth level full caster. We're talking about garbage-tier blaster builds that basically every class guide will tell you to avoid like the plague because they're underwhelming and chock full of crap like that.
All you need to do is look at abilities like "elemental ray" or "force missile" or "touch of flame" and then look at abilities like "arcane bond" or "shift" or "channel energy" and the comparison basically makes itself.
And basically never does the rest of the package actually even attempt to compensate for it on the back end either.
So yeah I'm pretty comfortable calling that bad.
I'm also comfortable calling it horribly uninspired, when Paizo just copies the exact same ability a dozen times for basically every flavor of blaster.
My heart is overcome with sadness for the poor nine level casters, burdened with these weak abilities, they will never be able to meaningfully contribute.
Why can't casters have only really really super nice things?
I never really understood this logic either. Because some casters are really overpowered, other casters that are already kind of bad should have shitty abilities shoveled into their kit as some kind of... karmic justice? For the wrong style of play?
GM 1990 |
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Starting around 5th level (and more options each level), when a combat begins I can cast:
Summon Mon "nth" - getting attacks/damage/flanking helper, for 1rd/lvl (often the whole combat); and 2d round,
cast several spell options that last 1rd/lvl which allow me to make attacks (Flame sphere or Ball Lightening for example) or CMB actions (Forceful hand=bullrush for example) using only my move action; and 3rd round,
cast any blast/control/buff spell I have, use a wand, or use a weapon with my standard action.
The only round I really sacrifice is round 1 when I have to spin up the summons; at that point I'm adding to the party's DPR and probably helping the front-liner/rogue with flanking; and building my actions per round. If I really wanted to get after it, I could meta-magic a quick-spell.
That's enough for me. I don't see how I could possibly complain that potentially my -3rd- (free daily refilling) attacking option each round just doesn't do enough damage at higher levels. I could have a 3rd or 4th level wand for my standard action, when trying to conserve my spell slots.
There are feats, and abilities that suffer the same "mid-late game irrelevance". Wpn Focus (+3 vs +4 early is good; but +20 or +21 less so). Toughness (8 vs 11hp early is difference between dying and attacking again; 100 vs 110hp, less important).
That's not to say - don't do it for your game. But offering some things for consideration about if its needed or even going to come up very often at higher levels when things like wands are available.
Knight Magenta |
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The problem with the blasts is not that they are bad. Its that they are so much worse than the alternatives. Most other bloodlines / revelations / domains give you something cool.
A level 1 fire bloodline sorcerer can cast acid splash for 1d3 + 1 damage (acid flask focus) for an average of 3 points. Or his piddly bolt for 1d6 + 1, for an average of 4.5. So for a bonus +1.5 damage for the first 2 levels (after which it becomes irrelevant) the sorcerer needs to sacrifice a real class feature? That seems weird. There is a reason that the tattooed sorcerer archetype is so loved for blasters.
Personally, I'd give the fire sorcerer (for example) basic pyrokinesis or something like the ability to cast augury with a campfire as a focus.
Kalindlara Contributor |
MeanMutton |
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My heart is overcome with sadness for the poor nine level casters, burdened with these weak abilities, they will never be able to meaningfully contribute.
Why can't casters have only really really super nice things?
Honestly, I'm more annoyed at all the crap I have to weed through on my Herolab character sheet that I'll never, ever use than anything.
Firebug |
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(*)AND I have seen posts on these messageboards about already-legal ways to boost some of the damage Cantrips to do decent amounts of damage, whereas for these 1st level Bloodline/Arcane School ray abilities, you don't get any opportunity except the absurdly slow scaling with level.
So this is where I don't talk about acid splash for (1d3+5 acid +1d4+2 cold) empowered happens again next round, or non empowered lasts 4 rounds in a 0th level slot? And now reduces their move speed by 5 and can't 5’ step (chilling amplification, magic tactics toolbox)?
20-30 damage on a Cantrip too much at level 5?
Mulgar |
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In one of the many recent "extend the adventuring day" threads lately I suggested upping the damage on these abilities to 1d6 plus 1 per level (like 1d6+10 at 10th level). This obviously wouldn't satisfy swoosh, who feels that 5d6+5 would be insufficient at 10th level, but I feel like it might provide a little more incentive to use your caster's built in crossbow substitute.
If you want these abilities to be bottom of the barrel stuff folks use when they want to conserve spells (which seems to be the original intent) I think 1d6 plus 1 per level would make them a little better than they currently are without changing game balance measurably. If you want these abilities to compete with low level attack spells and stand out as noticeable aspects of the PC's arsenal then you'd probably need to amp them up to 1d6/level.
I guess the power level would be somewhere around Ring of Wizardry II if you assume that the PC wanted the ring to cast more low level attack spells (possibly not a bad assumption if that PC is a blaster?) To me that seems like a power up casters probably don't need. I suppose it might make some casters more willing to participate in another fight before resting though.
To even mention a ring of wizardry to me is a little silly. Higher level wizards usually have 6-8 first level spells. Pearls of power are a way better investment than the ring.
Firebug |
Unless you want to memorize more then 6-8 different spells, or you do not think you can afford to take the standard actions to activate the pearls of power to recharge your slots. Taking a standard action to pull out a pearl of power to recharge air bubble or touch of the sea when the boat capsizes from a giant squid and no one else can swim is probably not a great situation to be in.