Yeah, the Arcanist has it pretty good in the first few levels. I do wonder if some think the Arcanist is OP just because of those first few levels.
The Shaman by comparison looks pretty weak in its first level. Most builds can't do much of anything until level 2 or later.
It's theorycraft based on what could happen more than anything else. I am playing one now, and while it is around the power of a wizard. I still find getting spells one level late painful, but the arcane exploits make it hurt less.
This book has never interested me, so I didn't purchase it. The inherent weakness is that all the "new" classes were, by their very nature, highly derivative of pre-existing classes - usually resulting in a mish mash of class features at the expense of the unique flavour of the parent classes. Shaman is the absolute worst offender in this regard - grabbing abilities from nearly every 9th level caster in the game, but ending up very thematically unsatisfying.
Having said that, there are two exceptions that I do think work well. The slayer, despite the groan inducing class name, is a cooler class than either of its parents. I have played and enjoyed a slayer several times. Secondly, the bloodrager, while entirely unappealing to me, does seem to fill a unique niche.
the Brawler, which has mostly been entirely eclipsed by its parent classes,
You wut mate?
Ya wanna have a row for sayen that 'bout my baby?
Seriously, Brawler is like, the Wizard of Martials, mate. I don't see him getting eclipsed anytime soon.
I'm afraid we may be facing an actual class bloat, where there are so many classes, that only the dev favorites ever get any attention.
It seems misleading to say every class gets new spells every splat. It's more like wizards and clerics get new spells, and then other classes that fit the nature of that spell get it too.
Meanwhile the unchained rogue gets new talents and the slayer is basically left with his original choices. They could have at least let the slayer share some of them.
Meanwhile the unchained rogue gets new talents and the slayer is basically left with his original choices. They could have at least let the slayer share some of them.
The moment I first saw Slayers had a limited list of specific Rogue Talents they could get instead of simply being allowed to take any one they like, I knew the class would end up getting few if any new talents.
Stupid design choice...
Also I'm really salty about level 16 Awesome Blow. I mean, Brute Vigilantes can get it at level 8 and that's at least a level where you can actually use the ability without destroying your attack routine. Screw whoever decided Awesome Blow at 16 was a good idea. But that's another issue entirely.
Yes, but then you would be playing a Brute.
I'm not so sure. MV is a great ability, undoubtably so, but between UMonk and all of the fighter specific stuff in recent books I'm not sure that ability is enough to carry the class by comparison, especially when it doesn't really have that much else in its toolkit. That and the Brawler's class design pointing it toward certain weapons limits MV to a degree too.
Ultimately while the Brawler can get pretty fancy at times, you don't really need fancy when you could just kill the bad guy instead and call it a day, which its parent classes are great at.
First of all, Unchained Monk was just trying to put it at Brawler level. I think Unchained Monk is okay, but Brawler still has more content.
Second of all, Fighter still isn't Unchained and I'm much more skeptical of these fixes than I think a lot of people are. WMH was nice, but it wasn't suddenly they are awesome nice. And having seen Advanced Armor Training... meh. That's all I can really say about it. It's meh. Whatever. There's two and a half really strong ones.
Meanwhile, Brawler can steal Fighter feats all day. If you know your combos, Brawler is very potent. It's just a matter of that system knowledge. It's not just about being able to be fancy about how you kill someone. It's about having flexibility to kill someone in a way you couldn't normally.
Normally, you couldn't fight well underwater. Boom, you have Aquatic Combatant. Really wish you could use a certain combat maneuver that would normally be a waste of feats? You just mastered it. Need to use an exotic ranged weapons? Luckily you just so happen to be proficient and have the basic ranged feats. Whatever you need to be, you are.
{. . .}
{Slayer build}
{. . .}
Mental Note: Steal his build.
* * * * * * * *
Separately from this, I forgot to mention that Bloodrager seems to be a surprisingly good dip class for certain gish builds.
Want martial weapon proficiency and a prerequisite-free Improved Combat Maneuver feat in just 1 level? Go with Blood Conduit Bloodrager, Wizard, and then Eldritch Knight; get Mad Magic (which just requires Bloodrage) to be able to cast ALL your spells while in Bloodrage, and then use the Rage spell to give yourself a lesser Rage that you can even use your Bloodline Power with, or be friends with a Savage Skald Bard, or if you don't care about the Bloodline Power, be friends with a Skald (who unlike the Bard archetype has to wait until 20th level before being able to activate your Bloodrage Powers).
Want to progress that Bloodrager Bloodline? As above, but use Arcanist or Exploiter Wizard with the Bloodline Development Arcane Exploit to progress the Bloodrager Bloodline.
Want Spellstrike on a 9-level caster? Use Blade Adept Arcanist with the same Exploit to get effective Magus levels for the Maneuver Mastery Magus Arcana with VMC Magus to qualify for Maneuver Mastery (Blade Adept Arcanist by itself doesn't qualify, but VMC Magus doesn't give effective Magus Levels) and get Spellstrike as well as access to more Arcane Pool/Reservoir and some other Magus Arcana that Blade Adept Arcanist wouldn't qualify for. In this case you probably DON'T go Eldritch Knight. See here and the following few posts (not all consecutive).
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Am I missing a reference here?I don't know about you but we always Zeth our traps around here.Trapfinding can also be obtained via a trait... Or easily ignored, as it is far from being a necessary ability... or even particularly useful. There are numerous ways to circumvent traps without having to disarm them.
And of course, we always have the Archaeologist archetype. ;)
My son plays a fighter named Zeth.
He always finds our traps the hard way....
He has done it so often, we don't "look" for traps, we "Zeth" them.
Brawler + Fighter thoughts: Consider rolling the Brawler's Martial Flexibility into the base Fighter (and make the other Brawler stuff be Fighter options), rather than needing an archetype that trades out stuff. Also would be nice if Fighters had the same kind of ability to swap Weapon Training as they had for swapping Bonus Feats.
Actually come to think of it, making Slayer into a set of Fighter options would be not bad also. But Fighter really needs an upgrade in base skill points per level (from the beginning, not having to wait for Versatile Training to come online, even assuming your archetype doesn't trade out Weapon Training, even and assuming that your choice of Weapon happens to match up with the skills you want to use).
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It seems misleading to say every class gets new spells every splat. It's more like wizards and clerics get new spells, and then other classes that fit the nature of that spell get it too.
To be fair though, off the top of my head, I can't really remember any good new Cleric spells since Blessing of Fervor or Burst of Radiance. (There might be some, just nothing I remember saying, "Oh, thats cool" or "That looks fun".) Most, and I'd say Clerics get amongst the least even then, are pretty garbage options. A better example might be Paladin, Druid, and Bard, who tend to get more and better options each month or other month.
What makes full casters powerful is essentially their spell list and spell availability... Their class features are often a second thought.
I disagree there are many examples of class features that augment spell casting ability and general effectiveness. Its not just the spell lists themselves...
And with the Shaman... it not only has its own list, that while not great is a 9th level list nevertheless - but far more importantly it has the ability to pinch just about any spell in the game and change them around on a daily basis!
You dont need an enormous spell list when you can just cherry pick the best ones from others!..... And do it all with AC 45 and a list of class abilities as long as a Kraken's tentacle!
What makes full casters powerful is essentially their spell list and spell availability... Their class features are often a second thought.
I disagree there are many examples of class features that augment spell casting ability and general effectiveness. Its not just the spell lists themselves...
And with the Shaman... it not only has its own list, that while not great is a 9th level list nevertheless - but far more importantly it has the ability to pinch just about any spell in the game and change them around on a daily basis!
You dont need an enormous spell list when you can just cherry pick the best ones from others!..... And do it all with AC 45 and a list of class abilities as long as a Kraken's tentacle!
I don't think he was saying none of their class abilities were good. He was saying their power was in their spells, and that for the most part the class abilities were a secondary feature.
That is not the same as "it's only the spell list".
I don't think he was saying none of their class abilities were good. He was saying their power was in their spells, and that for the most part the class abilities were a secondary feature.
That is not the same as "it's only the spell list".
Precisely. Arcanist have quite a few overpowered abilities for example... And a freaking amazing spell list. And an stupidly good casting system... Have I mentioned Arcanists are broken? Because they are.
Shamans have a good, but not particularly impressive spell list, IIRC... And other than the Arcane spell poaching ability, which really needs a nerf , their class features are hardly game breaking...
Shamans are still overpowered because anything with full casting is overpowered in Pathfinder... That's just how the game is designed, sadly. But compared to other full casters? Shaman isn't all that...
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Methinks the lady doth protest too much.
Nothing is broken. Cowboy up and do some proper GMing.
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Try again. :-)
Except without the insults. :-)
Precisely. Arcanist have quite a few overpowered abilities for example... And a freaking amazing spell list. And an stupidly good casting system... Have I mentioned Arcanists are broken? Because they are.
Shamans have a good, but not particularly impressive spell list, IIRC... And other than the Arcane spell poaching ability, which really needs a nerf , their class features are hardly game breaking...
Shamans are still overpowered because anything with full casting is overpowered in Pathfinder... That's just how the game is designed, sadly. But compared to other full casters? Shaman isn't all that...
Fair enough... we will agree to disagree
If you think being able to cast 9th level arcane and divine spells in full tank with D8 HD, 3/4 BAB, hexes, familiar and a gazillion other abilities "isnt all that in comparison to other full casters"..... then I will be on my merry way! x
If you think being able to cast 9th level arcane and divine spells in full tank with D8 HD, 3/4 BAB, hexes, familiar and a gazillion other abilities "isnt all that in comparison to other full casters"..... then I will be on my merry way! x
Considering what is present in Wizard/Arcanist spell list they still win out. And both of them have rather powerful class features (specially the Arcanist).
Clerics have a more powerful spell list and pretty good domain abilities (sadly, they are really freaking boring to build). They also have access to their whole spell list. And two good saves.
Druids have a similar spell list and Wild Shape, which is amazing by itself, and freaking awesome when backed up by spells, spontaneous SNA and animal companion. And like Clerics, have access to their whole spell list. And two good saves.
Summoners (who are really just full-casters poorly disguised as 6/9 casters) have access to some of the best buffs and utility spells in the game and a freaking Eidolon.
Witches are probably left behind.... And are likely the least powerful Tier 1 class... But they still have a greater collection of hexes... Including Grand Hexes. And a familiar, since you're so convinced they are all that good.
Shaman is extremely powerful... But I have a hard time seeing it overpowering other tier 1 classes. At least by a significant margin.
But, hey... Have fun treading your merry way. ;)
Just for the record, Slayer started receiving new talents on Blood of Shadows and has received more talents since then.
If they don't appear in d20pfsrd that's not really a problem.
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Just for the record, Slayer started receiving new talents on Blood of Shadows and has received more talents since then.
If they don't appear in d20pfsrd that's not really a problem.
D20pfsrd has lately dropped the ball on updates, so many people assume if they can't find something there it doesn't exist ;)
D20pfsrd has lately dropped the ball on updates, so many people assume if they can't find something there it doesn't exist ;)Just for the record, Slayer started receiving new talents on Blood of Shadows and has received more talents since then.
If they don't appear in d20pfsrd that's not really a problem.
To be fair, imo all the recent releases have been good enough to buy day of release.
Free resources have their values, especially in that they've helped me decide what 3PP products to buy, but I agree that those independent websites not updating really isn't a problem.
In fairness, the human being doing the updating has been dealing with a painful back issue that hasn't allowed them to update it as much as they would hope.
I've played an arcanist since the class came out. He's 19th level now and I have to say I've loved it. There's a lot of situational fluff in there for NPCs, but there's a good blend of the sorc/wizard. Losing that spell level isn't terrible either.
The next campaign, I'll be playing a Brawler in the style of Hercules: the Legendary Journeys. I'm very curious to see how that works out.
We had a PC play a hunter. Great situational damage and he was passable as a scout for us. So, that worked out well as well.
Is the brawler not getting new support with every new feat printed? :P
In fairness, the human being doing the updating has been dealing with a painful back issue that hasn't allowed them to update it as much as they would hope.
That's for Archive of Nethys, Or I guess it's possible that both AoN and D20pfsrd both have painful back issues.
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No, you're right, I always get those two mixed up.
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D20pfsrd has lately dropped the ball on updates, so many people assume if they can't find something there it doesn't exist ;)Just for the record, Slayer started receiving new talents on Blood of Shadows and has received more talents since then.
If they don't appear in d20pfsrd that's not really a problem.
To be fair, imo all the recent releases have been good enough to buy day of release.
Free resources have their values, especially in that they've helped me decide what 3PP products to buy, but I agree that those independent websites not updating really isn't a problem.
For the record, free is not the only reason people like to see these sites updated. I buy a lot of Paizo products---I think I'm on five subscriptions at the moment---and I'm happy to buy anything that I plan to use. But I still like to have them on the searchable database because it's easier for me to look there than to sort through tons of paperback products. Some people like books better, and some people like digital, so it's good when both options are available.
Yeah, I own a lot of the books from my PFS days, but in actual gameplay, I look everything up on my phone. It's faster, more convenient and you don't have to worry about updates from errata.
Just for the record, Slayer started receiving new talents on Blood of Shadows and has received more talents since then.
If they don't appear in d20pfsrd that's not really a problem.
Seems like BOTH www.d20pfsrdcom and Archives of Nethys are having problems keeping up with updates in the last few weeks, although at least the former is adding some updates (but has some strange gaps even from updates of a few months ago, such as the Fighter archetype Child of Acavna and Amaznen -- I know they would have to rename it for legal reasons, but I can't find even a renamed version).
Yeah, if Kuroi Kage asked me to help him update his site I'd do it without a moment's hesitation.
Thing that puts AON way ahead of PFSRD is how it lists sources and integrates things like spell lists. PFSRD is way all over the place...
For the record, free is not the only reason people like to see these sites updated. I buy a lot of Paizo products---I think I'm on five subscriptions at the moment---and I'm happy to buy anything that I plan to use. But I still like to have them on the searchable database because it's easier for me to look there than to sort through tons of paperback products. Some people like books better, and some people like digital, so it's good when both options are available.
Agree here. I bought the ACG right after it came out but I haven't opened my PDF since it hit d20pfsrd.
I'd say the same for Blood of Shadows too but half the stuff in it isn't up there (or rather, it was up there and then it all disappeared).
Also AoN doesn't need to rename things.
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On the other hand, www.d20pfsrd.com is easier to search -- the Google-powered Search function usually works, whereas I have NEVER gotten the Archives of Nethys Search function to work (it just sits there for an extremely long time and then either comes up with no results or an error). (This is unless they have fixed something in the last few days.)
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AoN search has always worked perfectly for me, and I use it quite a lot.
I just use google and put Archivesofnethys.com with the search-term in the bar. Usually works better and faster than the search function on the site.
On the other hand, www.d20pfsrd.com is easier to search -- the Google-powered Search function usually works, whereas I have NEVER gotten the Archives of Nethys Search function to work (it just sits there for an extremely long time and then either comes up with no results or an error). (This is unless they have fixed something in the last few days.)
Are you clicking the little buttons below telling it where to search? If you don't, it does that. Learned that the hard way.
I just use google and put Archivesofnethys.com with the search-term in the bar. Usually works better and faster than the search function on the site.
I'm even lazier. I just type Nethys and whatever other thing I want into google. It works almost every time. Except sometimes on my phone I mistype methys instead.
I don't think he was saying none of their class abilities were good. He was saying their power was in their spells, and that for the most part the class abilities were a secondary feature.
That is not the same as "it's only the spell list".
Precisely. Arcanist have quite a few overpowered abilities for example... And a freaking amazing spell list. And an stupidly good casting system... Have I mentioned Arcanists are broken? Because they are.
Shamans have a good, but not particularly impressive spell list, IIRC... And other than the Arcane spell poaching ability, which really needs a nerf , their class features are hardly game breaking...
Shamans are still overpowered because anything with full casting is overpowered in Pathfinder... That's just how the game is designed, sadly. But compared to other full casters? Shaman isn't all that...
Define broken and what do they have that is OP?
Also define what you mean by OP?I am playing one now, and not wrecking. No, I am not trying to make the best possible version, but if I do that, even with a barbarian(just one example) I can give GM's fits.
On the other hand, www.d20pfsrd.com is easier to search -- the Google-powered Search function usually works, whereas I have NEVER gotten the Archives of Nethys Search function to work (it just sits there for an extremely long time and then either comes up with no results or an error). (This is unless they have fixed something in the last few days.)
Really? AoN has always flowed smoothly in my case, even the search function--whereas the PFSRD times out and /or crashes on me pretty regularly (perhaps 1 in 3 visits).
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Are you clicking the little buttons below telling it where to search? If you don't, it does that. Learned that the hard way.On the other hand, www.d20pfsrd.com is easier to search -- the Google-powered Search function usually works, whereas I have NEVER gotten the Archives of Nethys Search function to work (it just sits there for an extremely long time and then either comes up with no results or an error). (This is unless they have fixed something in the last few days.)
The thing is, sometimes I don't know what category the thing I'm searching for falls into, so I prefer to use d20pfsrd for those. I actually use both databases for different things. If I want anything remotely campaign setting related, I go to Archives of Nethys, and if the most important thing is searchability, I go to d20pfsrd. I confess that the relentless ads on the latter have made me more eager to use Archives of Nethys for things.
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Really? AoN has always flowed smoothly in my case, even the search function--whereas the PFSRD times out and /or crashes on me pretty regularly (perhaps 1 in 3 visits).On the other hand, www.d20pfsrd.com is easier to search -- the Google-powered Search function usually works, whereas I have NEVER gotten the Archives of Nethys Search function to work (it just sits there for an extremely long time and then either comes up with no results or an error). (This is unless they have fixed something in the last few days.)
Something I like about the ArchivesofNethys, that the d20pfsrd doesn't seem to have, is the ability to see all of the options associated with a given source.
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First off I have had very little actual play time with any of these classes, I have not had that much gaming in the last few years and even fewer opportunities to make new characters. That said I can download my thoughts anyway.
Arcanist - I have always hated Vancian Magic. While this class is still a Vancian caster I love the combination between the Wizard and Sorcerer styles. I think this class will be my replacement for Wizard in most situations going forward. Not because it is more powerful, getting even fewer spells per day and with the slower sorcerer progression hurts, but I like the flexibility it offers.
Bloodrager - When I first read this class, I was less than interested, the only niche it filled for me was the full BAB, 4 level Arcane caster that I had wanted to see for a while. It has grown on me, it is still not among my favorite classes but I definitely see potential and may take advantage of a level 1 rebuild for PFS.
Brawler - Never been a fan of the Lawful restriction on Monks, this stems I'm sure from my hatred of the Alignment system it self. I love that this class can be an effective unarmed fighter without being tied down to an alignment restriction. I almost retrained a Grapple monk to this class, also considered going Unchained, but ultimately chose to stick with Tetori Monk. I still have some concepts brewing for how I can use this class and look forward to trying it out.
Hunter - This is one of my favorite new classes, but I have always been a fan of pet classes, even back in 2nd edition. I Love Animals... Sorry. Anyway, my first character in PFS was a Druid, and if I get my hands on a rebuild boon I would totally retrain the Druid to a Hunter as it would make my original plan work better, that would be a summoning focused Druid.
Investigator - This class is quite possibly my favorite PFRPG class, by far. I love how it works, I love the thematics, I love the skill focus. With the addition of the Psychic Detective I could not ask for much more out of this class. My currently most active PFS character is an Investigator and he is wuite fun to play.
Shaman - This class is possibly the most convoluted class that Paizo has put out in the last few years. I like the thematics, but it is hard to make sense of where to go with the class. One of my friends has a Shaman in PFS and seems to be enjoying it, but I have no direct experience with the class. I don't see it as being OP as some people have claimed.
Skald - This is a class that I initially did not take any interest in. It felt like too narrow of a focus. Upon further examination I find that it has plenty of potential to be awesome, though I would love to see a selfish archetype, (one that keeps the majority of its non-spell bonuses to itself).
Slayer - This class is fun. I have one in PFS and when I get to play him I have a good time. I would love for a talent that gives them smoke bombs, whether like a Ninja or Alchemist I don't care, I just think it would be a cool addition to the class.
Swashbuckler - This class is not what I was hoping it would be but I still think it has potential. I have a PFS build that I have not played much using swashbuckler as a base for an Aldori Swordlord. I think it should work out well.
Warpriest - This class initially fell shy of what I really wanted, a non-LG paladin replacement. It still does not fill that niche for me, but it still has a lot of fun potential and I have a least two concepts that I look forward to getting to try out for this class.