For me a tank is good hp and good AC guy who prevents others guys to take dmgs and when an enemy damages a friend the tank punishes him hard.
The problem is that i really like to be the face of the group but i hate the paladin i don't like to be the l/g, i always make characters n/g or c/g(but she is the only one tank class that can want a good cha) and i like having 4/5+skills for doing something out of combat. Can you suggest me a class and a build?
There's a few ways to build a Bloodrager as a tank which would work well for what you want.
Abyssal Bloodrager with the Tumor Familiar Feat with the Protector Archetype for example gives you something like 150% HPs and fast healing.
Urban Bloodrager doesn't lower your AC when raging.
Steelblooded gives you heavy armor.
Destined gives a sweet luck Bonus to saves and AC.
Wanting to be a frontline tank/dps while also going for a party face I'd probably recommend either a swashbuckler or bloodrager.
Both are frontliners that benefit greatly from charisma.
I'd probably either do a halfling swashbuckler that focuses on defensive fighting or a bloodrager that just takes a decent amount of defensive rage powers like guarded stance, raging vitality, etc
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An important thing to remember for "tanks" is that you have to be able to be enough of a threat to the enemy that they will want to engage you instead of trying to go around you.
I've seen (in the past) far too many players try to build a character with an amazing AC, high HP, and great saves only to find they have no practical offensive options. And then in combat they walk around being ignored and unharmed while their party takes the brunt.
You need a good offense to make people focus on you, while also being capable of surviving fairly well when you take a beating.
Arcane bloodline bloodragers can do this well, because their ability to buff when entering rage is quite good. At 8th elvel you can choose haste or displacement as need be when entering combat.
I combined this with power attack, cornugon smash, hurtful, cruel weapon enhancement, and later arcane strike ( with blooded arcane strike) and riving strike. This combination allowed me to lower an enemies saves by 6 and their attacks by 4 (among other things).
This combination works great if you have any sort of save or suck caster in your group because you can take what was a strong save and make it average, and take a weak save and make it abysmal.
And on top of displacement makes you incredibly difficult to damage and you have a big pool of HP thanks to bloodrage (Don't forget to pickup raging vitality).
I like Iroran Paladin (less of an issue with being Lawful Good).
I like Monk, but it's hard to have good AC with a Monk's armor restrictions.
You could be a Cleric with Cha/Wis, take Heavy Armor Proficiency for Full Plate.
Unchained Monk 1/Irorian Paladin X is actually a pretty sweet Combo if you use a two handed weapon for flurrying as you also get the Ki-Pool flurry at 5th level.
Unchained Monk 1/Irorian Paladin X is actually a pretty sweet Combo if you use a two handed weapon for flurrying as you also get the Ki-Pool flurry at 5th level.I like Iroran Paladin (less of an issue with being Lawful Good).
I like Monk, but it's hard to have good AC with a Monk's armor restrictions.
You could be a Cleric with Cha/Wis, take Heavy Armor Proficiency for Full Plate.
soryy but where can i find the iroran paladin? I googled it but i can'y find anything
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soryy but where can i find the iroran paladin? I googled it but i can'y find anythingUnchained Monk 1/Irorian Paladin X is actually a pretty sweet Combo if you use a two handed weapon for flurrying as you also get the Ki-Pool flurry at 5th level.I like Iroran Paladin (less of an issue with being Lawful Good).
I like Monk, but it's hard to have good AC with a Monk's armor restrictions.
You could be a Cleric with Cha/Wis, take Heavy Armor Proficiency for Full Plate.
It's in Inner Sea Combat, you can see the stats here.
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It's actually very easy to have a great AC with a Monk. It's just hard (but not impossible) to also do decent damage when you do.
I like Monk, but it's hard to have good AC with a Monk's armor restrictions.
I've been pondering on this for a good 9 months, and I haven't found anything that exceeds generic Fighter for AC. Sure touch AC is nuts, but not generic Ogre defense AC.
I'm not sure how "being able to hit" factors into this? I guess by that you mean "dumping STR for more DEX?"
probably the bloodrager is the one i'm looking for, he has good cha 4+ skills and he can fight hard in melee( plus he has spells).
I'm looking at the archetypes, is really the primalist so OP? Does abnormal reach work with weapon with reach feature?
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It's actually very easy to have a great AC with a Monk. It's just hard (but not impossible) to also do decent damage when you do.
I like Monk, but it's hard to have good AC with a Monk's armor restrictions.I've been pondering on this for a good 9 months, and I haven't found anything that exceeds generic Fighter for AC. Sure touch AC is nuts, but not generic Ogre defense AC.
I'm not sure how "being able to hit" factors into this? I guess by that you mean "dumping STR for more DEX?"
Generic Fighters have some of the highest AC in the game.
That being said... Monk's should have amazing damage too, and easily.
Any and all the builds listed here should have 22+level AC at the very least. Jabbing and Dragon have 25+level and 24+level respectively, while also dealing a nontrivial damage output, to put it euphemistically.
A 12th level Fighter should stand at...
2H build - 20+level (but with DR 6/-, which is nothing to scoff at)
Shield build - 24+level (but with DR 6/-, but probably less damage).
A thing to note, James Risner seems to have a very skewed view on what Great AC is.
He made a guy having 36 at lv7 and is upset that his AC is now 34 because jingasa is gone. And I he seems to indicate that anything a few points lower than that isn't worth having AC. So Since his standard seems to be set at absurd, the great monk AC you've shown will probably be considered bad by him.
isn't there a shield proficiency trait somewhere?There is a trait that lets you treat shields as simple weapons instead of martial for bashing, but there isn't a trait that grants proficiency with shields for defense.
There is a trait thatgrants proficiency with light shields. Sadly I forgot the name. I think it's a regional trait that has a numbe rof options.
Another Tanky Option with strong face skills is Savage Technologist Barbarian. Just screw the Guns part pick up Medium Armor Proficiency via Feat and go to town.
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Why has no one suggested a bard? Dex bards can be very tanky, and between buffing & Fencing Grace (to get decent damage) they easily pull their weight.
A mithral breastplate, light shield (since Fencing Grace errata) and 18-20 Dex, and you will have very solid AC. A Halfling bard could easily be sitting at a 23 AC before any magic gear/feats, and they can afford to spend a bigger chunk of their $ on defensive gear since offense isn't their main job.
Get Antagonism and you can force people to attack you, and it's a better use of your actions (once buffs are done) than it is for a high DPR martial. Plus, as a bard, you'll be good at it.
Level 5 Halfling Bard (20pt buy)-
STR:6
DEX:19
Con:14
Int:10
Wis:12
Cha:16
AC: 25 (Very solid, though not amazing, and able to cast Mirror Image at need.)
Fort: +5
Will: +7
Ref: +10
Attack: +10 1d4+5 (18-20) - nothing to write home about, but not terrible with inspire courage up
Gear: +1 m breastplate / +1 l shield / +1 mithril rapier / +1 cloak of resis / random useful gear
Traits: Muscle of the Society / Armor Expert
Feats: Weapon Focus/Weapon Finesse/Fencing Grace
Bards get wrecked. Low hp, no DR, low fortitude to resist rider effects...
The bard you mention has lower AC than a generic 2H Fighter (Full Plate, 14 base DEX, Armor Spec, Defensive Weapon Training for 25+1/4 level AC before any mithral or magic is involved).
Not to mention Antagonize sucks.
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The bard you mention has lower AC than a generic 2H Fighter (Full Plate, 14 base DEX, Armor Spec, Defensive Weapon Training for 25+1/4 level AC before any mithral or magic is involved).
1. In what world does anyone every take Defensive Weapon Training? It's far too limited.
You know how to defend yourself against a certain class of weaponry.
Prerequisites: Int 13, base attack bonus +5.
Benefit: Choose a weapon group from the fighter's weapon training class ability list (except natural weapons). You gain a +2 dodge bonus on AC when an opponent attacks you using a weapon from that group. If you also have the weapon training class feature in the selected group, your dodge bonus from this feat increases to +3.
Special: You can select this feat more than once. Its effects do not stack. Each time you select this feat, it applies to a different weapon group.
Am I missing something? (certainly wouldn't be the first time)
2. Besides that, I see a 22 AC before magic gear. The bard would be competitive, and it'd pull ahead since it has another AC slot. (shield)
Bards get wrecked. Low hp, no DR, low fortitude to resist rider effects...
...spellcasting such as mirror image, blur, ability to heal themselves, good will save...
Not to mention Antagonize sucks.
Not for a bard. It's not something to base a build around, but it's a handy option.
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I think Secret Wizard meant the Defensive Weapon Training AWT, not the feat.
Defensive Weapon Training (Ex)
The fighter gains a +1 shield bonus to his Armor Class. The fighter adds half his weapon’s enhancement bonus (if any) to this shield bonus. When his weapon training bonus for weapons from the associated fighter weapon group reaches +4, this shield bonus increases to +2. This shield bonus is lost if the fighter is immobilized or helpless.
As Imbicatus said, I meant the AWT option.
Again the AC is:
10 + 9 armor + 2 DEX + 2 shield (DWT) + 1/4 level (Armor Spec) (so 23 + 1/4 level). And you add 1/2 enhancement from weapon to that, so you get some synergy too.
...spellcasting such as mirror image, blur, ability to heal themselves, good will save...
Fighters can get good Will saves with good building too (Armed Bravery + Iron Will).
Mirror Image and Blur are handy but they are tricks that require precasting and enemies can counter with scent/blindsense/etc.
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I think Secret Wizard meant the Defensive Weapon Training AWT, not the feat.
Defensive Weapon Training (Ex)
The fighter gains a +1 shield bonus to his Armor Class. The fighter adds half his weapon’s enhancement bonus (if any) to this shield bonus. When his weapon training bonus for weapons from the associated fighter weapon group reaches +4, this shield bonus increases to +2. This shield bonus is lost if the fighter is immobilized or helpless.
Interesting. What book is that from?
Anyway, it's always behind the bard's shield bonus. (max of +6 vs +4)
Anyway, the whole point is moot. I never claimed that bards were the tankiest class. However, you can build them pretty tanky, and (unlike fighters) they make a good face.
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I think Secret Wizard meant the Defensive Weapon Training AWT, not the feat.
Defensive Weapon Training (Ex)
The fighter gains a +1 shield bonus to his Armor Class. The fighter adds half his weapon’s enhancement bonus (if any) to this shield bonus. When his weapon training bonus for weapons from the associated fighter weapon group reaches +4, this shield bonus increases to +2. This shield bonus is lost if the fighter is immobilized or helpless.
Interesting. What book is that from?
Anyway, it's always behind the bard's shield bonus. (max of +6 vs +4)
Weapon Master's Handbook. It and Armor Master's Handbook are must have for any martial character, fighters especially.
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He made a guy having 36 at lv7 and is upset that his AC is now 34 because jingasa is gone.
So Since his standard seems to be set at absurd, the great monk AC you've shown will probably be considered bad by him.
To be fair, I'm not upset at all about Jingasa being gone. In fact it is a good thing. I think "good" AC is 32 at level 7 and up from there. I find it hard to do in a Monk build, but it may not be as hard with Unhindering Shield.
Although you would get better AC with the fighter from shield brace or unhindering shield than from the AWT.
I guess, the -1 attack penalty is the trade off though, and it costs more money to enchant a shield.
To be fair, I'm not upset at all about Jingasa being gone. In fact it is a good thing. I think "good" AC is 32 at level 7 and up from there. I find it hard to do in a Monk build, but it may not be as hard with Unhindering Shield.He made a guy having 36 at lv7 and is upset that his AC is now 34 because jingasa is gone.
So Since his standard seems to be set at absurd, the great monk AC you've shown will probably be considered bad by him.
Plz no. 3 feats for 2.5 AC?!
I'd rather go with a Crane Style build with Feral Combat Training to use bite attacks for 1.5x STR damage while keeping offhands free.
If 3rd Party is allowed you could try the Warder class from Dreamscarred Press' Path of War they can help boost allies AC, give penalties to enemies for not attacking them, and they gain more AoOs, they get Diplomacy as a class skill and have a focus on Intelligence giving them plenty of skills if you have a decent Charisma score(or find a way to change Diplomacy from Charisma to Intelligence) you should also be able to fill the face role too.
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Why has no one suggested a bard? Dex bards can be very tanky, and between buffing & Fencing Grace (to get decent damage) they easily pull their weight.
The Dawnflower Dervish Archetype is good for a tanky bard. The double to-hit bonuses from Battle Dance make fighting defensively more viable. Meditative Whirl is useful for some emergency healing while you re-cast Mirror Image.
That's a terrible waste. I'd rather get my Barkskin up and scaling as soon as possible.
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That's a terrible waste. I'd rather get my Barkskin up and scaling as soon as possible.
I'm more of a fan of action economy issues. If I spend the first round of combat doing something like Barkskin, then the combat is over before I deal a point of damage. So I go with static AC that doesn't require buffs over anything that requires an action.
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That's a terrible waste. I'd rather get my Barkskin up and scaling as soon as possible.I'm more of a fan of action economy issues. If I spend the first round of combat doing something like Barkskin, then the combat is over before I deal a point of damage. So I go with static AC that doesn't require buffs over anything that requires an action.
Barkskin is 10 minutes per level, its easily up 2 hours per activation., which is fine for most use.
Plus it's a swift action, so you're not wasting your first round.
And with your tanky guy, how in the world is the fight over so fast? Your guy isn't ending anything quickly.
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Plus it's a swift action, so you're not wasting your first round.
Does it ever mention this somewhere? Because it often mentions what actions certain ki powers are, such as the additional attack, the increased movement and the increased AC are all swift actions, and Qinggong feat powers are either free or immediate actions, but it never makes this distinction with spell like abilities. So we've just been assuming they take the same amount of time as regular SLAs, which is a standard action.
If it can be performed as a swift action, that would really increase my monks action economy. Especially for those fights where you get attacked in the middle of dinner, or the like, where it wouldn't really make sense to have barkskin up.
The Dawnflower Dervish Archetype is good for a tanky bard. The double to-hit bonuses from Battle Dance make fighting defensively more viable. Meditative Whirl is useful for some emergency healing while you re-cast Mirror Image.Why has no one suggested a bard? Dex bards can be very tanky, and between buffing & Fencing Grace (to get decent damage) they easily pull their weight.
I played a bard in my last 2 campaigns of pathfinder. Vigilante seems cool but the dual identity is not the best for my way to roleplay. Bloodrager and knight errant cavalier(or samurai) seems the best for me. I m thinking about an ulfen human who goes in the far east for learning a new way to fight, and now he is back.
Barkskin is a standard action. That being said, it's 40 minutes per pop at 4th level, so I'd hardly consider it "prebuffing" material as much as "predungeon" material like Mage's Armor.
I'm more of a fan of action economy issues. If I spend the first round of combat doing something like Barkskin, then the combat is over before I deal a point of damage. So I go with static AC that doesn't require buffs over anything that requires an action.
Then why are you delaying Flying Kick?!?!?!? Why are you delaying fast movement progression to use it better?!? Why are you shying away from more ki points? Why are you moving away from Swift Action SR to be an impenetrable fortress of damage?
Just because you prefer to get some extra AC from a shield rather than spending a standard action once every two hours to prebuff?
As noted, the Jabbing Striker as a pure monk, for example stands at 37 AC at level 12 before haste or other spells, which is 60% damage avoidance vs. CR 15 bosses or 80% avoidance vs. CR 12 mooks, and a considerable chunk of it is touch AC to boot.
And on the flipside, you are looking at 65% accuracy vs. CR 15 bosses or 80% vs. CR 12 mooks, and this is again before you add haste or spell buffing of any kind.
And it hits like a damn truck.
Putting fighter levels in there for a shield is not a good idea.
An important thing to remember for "tanks" is that you have to be able to be enough of a threat to the enemy that they will want to engage you instead of trying to go around you.
I've seen (in the past) far too many players try to build a character with an amazing AC, high HP, and great saves only to find they have no practical offensive options. And then in combat they walk around being ignored and unharmed while their party takes the brunt.
You need a good offense to make people focus on you, while also being capable of surviving fairly well when you take a beating.
The other way I've found to go about this is make sure everyone else has good defense as well. That way it isn't easy to just ignore you and go for the softer rogue.
I've been playing a defensive halfling swashbuckler in one of my campaigns and it is decent on the damage. But it also brings everyones AC up with mine to make us all fairly durable.
Cautious warrior trait for +1 defensive fighting AC
Cautious fighter feat for +2 defensive fighting AC
3 ranks acrobatics for +1
And then you get blundering defense and draconic defender and start passing out AC everywhere.
Bonus points if you get high level for dizzying defense or maybe a monk dip for crane style.
You could also take the helpful trait or benevolent armor and such and start boosting AC even further that way but my character hasn't gotten high enough level for all that yet.
is there a way for gqaining the bloodarager power from the bloodlin with a feat?
is there a way for gqaining the bloodarager power from the bloodlin with a feat?
Nope. Bloodlines tend to be more powerful than feats at least from level 4 onwards.
When it comes to pathfinder i have the feeling that if you want to be a proper "tank" you need to go the route of a healer/supporter build.
Think a hopsitaler paladin or a cleric with good saves/hp/ac which is there as a force multiplier as they get ignored/takes the hits and recover their friendlies. In addition these kind of characters get their support naturally and could have damage in addition so they are not just a "healbot"
If we are to use MMORPG similarities you already have damage and healing "aggro" and enmity generation, but the "tanks" have the benefit of bypassing that logic with "hate generation" abilities and those kind of effects exsist in pathfinder but is rather reliant on Saves.
For supports: Shield Other, Bodyguard, Standstill, Combat Patrol and similar is other ways of being a annoyance.
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When it comes to pathfinder i have the feeling that if you want to be a proper "tank" you need to go the route of a healer/supporter build.
Think a hopsitaler paladin or a cleric with good saves/hp/ac which is there as a force multiplier as they get ignored/takes the hits and recover their friendlies. In addition these kind of characters get their support naturally and could have damage in addition so they are not just a "healbot"
If we are to use MMORPG similarities you already have damage and healing "aggro" and enmity generation, but the "tanks" have the benefit of bypassing that logic with "hate generation" abilities and those kind of effects exsist in pathfinder but is rather reliant on Saves.
For supports: Shield Other, Bodyguard, Standstill, Combat Patrol and similar is other ways of being a annoyance.
Along these lines, my favorite PF tank has to be an Oradin (an oracle/paladin, for those not keen on the lingo), particularly with Hospitaler and VMC Cavalier (Order of the Stars.)
The oradin has the advantage that even if they're being ignored, they continously and passively soak team damage. I recognize this isn't much use for the OP since he stated he dislikes playing LG characters (though I tend to think people that dislike paladins just haven't seen a paladin played well or have draconian DM's who are constantly out to make the paladin fall for some reason.)