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...Maybe because someone on the dev team can't conceive the very idea of an "intelligent jock", I dare guess? (half joking)
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Smart bruisers could definitely use more race options, especially compared to the dex/int (Elf, Ratfolk, Sylph, Tengu, Tiefling, Android, Wayangs etc.) and dex/cha (Halfling, Catfolk, Dhampir, Drow, Fetchling, Ifrit, Kitsune, Vishkanya etc.) options.
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Smart bruisers could definitely use more race options, especially compared to the dex/int (Elf, Ratfolk, Sylph, Tengu, Tiefling, Android, Wayangs etc.) and dex/cha (Halfling, Catfolk, Dhampir, Drow, Fetchling, Ifrit, Kitsune, Vishkanya etc.) options.
In part that's because the baseline is medium sized, and so many small races (either actually small sized or smallish in lore) get +2 Dex & never +2 Str. And large sized characters are inherently OP.
It's pretty strange for sure.
Even stranger to wonder why they took one of the rarest stat combinations in the game and actually reduced the number of races that had it.
In part that's because the baseline is medium sized, and so many small races get +2 DexYeah but most of the races Kudaku mentioned are medium.
"...so many small races (either actually small sized or smallish in lore)..."
It doesn't get much more "smallish" than a dwarf, and obviously no one would argue they need a dexterity bonus.
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It's a core balance/game design issue for DnD that's been this way since Basic.
Up until very recently, one of the core concepts of DnD is that you have a small team of highly specialized PCs each solving problems in their own area. You have the spell guy, the heal guy, the tank/bruiser and so on, everyone has their own thing.
Strength and Intelligence are the two 'power attributes' that everyone gets use out of but are primary to fighters/barbarians/etc and wizards/arcane spellcasters respectively. As such, a Str/Int race is ideal for both diametrically opposed classes as well as Gish builds. Both class types are very powerful in Pathfinder, combining the two has to be handled delicately to maintain game balance especially when you consider PFS legality.
Touch attacks, for example, exist to give low-strength, low-BAB spellcasters a chance to actually do something hand to hand, give them higher strength or the ability to optimize for str and int you're going to get synergies that the devs probably don't want to deal with.
This isn't to say that it can't be done in a balanced way, I'm sure it can, but it's a worry and that probably makes it a low priority for the devs. As such even if you get an official str/int race (or more if one already exists, I can't think of one off the top of my head) don't expect them not to have some downside.
Edit: To be clear, I love the Magus and other fighting casters and yes, those classes would benefit from Str/int races. Of course, I mostly build Dex/int style characters when I go for this archetype so I haven't noticed the lack of Str/Int but I wouldn't turn back a player in a home game that brought me a concept for such a race built with APG.
It's a core balance/game design issue for DnD that's been this way since Basic.
Up until very recently, one of the core concepts of DnD is that you have a small team of highly specialized PCs each solving problems in their own area. You have the spell guy, the heal guy, the tank/bruiser and so on, everyone has their own thing.
Strength and Intelligence are the two 'power attributes' that everyone gets use out of but are primary to fighters/barbarians/etc and wizards/arcane spellcasters respectively. As such, a Str/Int race is ideal for both diametrically opposed classes as well as Gish builds. Both class types are very powerful in Pathfinder, combining the two has to be handled delicately to maintain game balance especially when you consider PFS legality.
Touch attacks, for example, exist to give low-strength, low-BAB spellcasters a chance to actually do something hand to hand, give them higher strength or the ability to optimize for str and int you're going to get synergies that the devs probably don't want to deal with.
This isn't to say that it can't be done in a balanced way, I'm sure it can, but it's a worry and that probably makes it a low priority for the devs. As such even if you get an official str/int race (or more if one already exists, I can't think of one off the top of my head) don't expect them not to have some downside.
I think this is the right concept.
Consider just how many Magi end up Dervish Dancing.Now imagine that without any feat investment to balance it out.
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Magus are -not- built for strength or dexterity.
The reason why many Magi go for Dex is because A. They don't two-hand weapons often, B. Dex potentially adds to many more stats (initiative, AC, reflex saves, number of AoO's a round, etc...), and C. people like the idea of being fast over strong.
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Racial bonuses to strength itself are uncommon. None of the core get it (human and half-humans don't count,) only two of the featured races have it, (6 if you count the aasimar and tiefling variants) and one of them is intended only for evil NPCs, and 1 more in the uncommon races.
Six more if you count the extra races though. Croc or Boar skinwalkers along with gnolls, lizardfolk, male lashunta, orang-pendak and reptoids. Even more if you count the monstrous races but those start to rapidly get campaign unfriendly.
That's not as bad, though still leaves them in last place though.
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Strength and Intelligence are both extremely powerful in this game. That is why.
Strength really isn't powerful unless you're going for a 2-handed martial for the most part. It gives you + attack and + damage with melee weapons and carrying capacity, compared to dex giving you more AoOs, AC, reflex, initiative, and potentially +attack and +damage with feats. Why is strength 'extremely powerful' here? Intelligence always gives you skill ranks, wisdom gives you will saves, con gives you HP and fort saves, CHA and STR are the classic dump stats unless they're required for your class. Frankly, a STR magus is almost always going to be worse than a DEX magus, even with a +2 STR/INT race compared to a +2 DEX/INT race :)
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I don't want to de rail my own thread, but I'd argue scaling armor proficiencies indicate they were not intended to be dex based.Magus are -not- built for strength or dexterity.
The reason why many Magi go for Dex is because A. They don't two-hand weapons often, B. Dex potentially adds to many more stats (initiative, AC, reflex saves, number of AoO's a round, etc...), and C. people like the idea of being fast over strong.
On the contrary, giving an option does not mean that the option is intended to be taken. If there wasn't -any- armor proficiency, you would be nearly forced into strength, but allowing armor gives Magi the ability to choose strength and still be on par with dex. I can see where the view comes from, there's certainly room for the argument, and so I'll stop derailing :P.
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Strength and Intelligence are both extremely powerful in this game. That is why.Strength really isn't powerful unless you're going for a 2-handed martial for the most part. It gives you + attack and + damage with melee weapons and carrying capacity, compared to dex giving you more AoOs, AC, reflex, initiative, and potentially +attack and +damage with feats. Why is strength 'extremely powerful' here? Intelligence always gives you skill ranks, wisdom gives you will saves, con gives you HP and fort saves, CHA and STR are the classic dump stats unless they're required for your class. Frankly, a STR magus is almost always going to be worse than a DEX magus, even with a +2 STR/INT race compared to a +2 DEX/INT race :)
To Hit and Damage bonus. Even most ranged need strength for damage. That is why. Basically, it is THE main physical stat. Dex following, and close behind is constitution. Even ranged characters want strength.
Though, casters can usually dump this, and dex characters don't need much(but they still need carry capacity, and many dex characters still want the extra damage).Dex is also considered a powerful stat, but not as powerful as strength, since you need a feat to get To Hit from it, and you used to have no way to get damage from it... and even that is still limited. The rest is great, and does make DEX perhaps too powerful when you get the bonuses of strength on top of it.
But for DEX to be better than strength, you need to take an ability that makes it act like strength in some way.
Being a save stat is not considered to make an ability score powerful. I know it sounds weird, but it just isn't. I think its because people are not expected to pump stats only for saves. *shrugs*
Intelligence is great for a bunch of skills, is also the stat to increase skill points, is used in a lot of class abilities. It is THE main mental stat. Wisdom is second, followed by charisma. Charisma is considered to be the worst casting stat.
I definitely don't think Str & Int would be an overpowered racial stat array, especially not if combined with a penalty to any stat other than Cha. I would love to see a few more races with this combo. It could allow you to build cool children of A&A and stuff.
It's pretty strange for sure.
Even stranger to wonder why they took one of the rarest stat combinations in the game and actually reduced the number of races that had it.
Which race had their stat bonuses changed?
Strength really isn't powerful unless you're going for a 2-handed martial for the most part.
Strength works even better for natural attacks. Two-handed weapon gives 150% Str mod? Two claws already give 200%.
I'd love to see a Str/Int race, to put the final nail in the coffin of the "dumb jock" stereotype. I don't see what's OP about it. A small race with a +2 Str mod, now THAT is OP.
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Racial bonuses to strength itself are uncommon. None of the core get it (human and half-humans don't count,) only two of the featured races have it, (6 if you count the aasimar and tiefling variants) and one of them is intended only for evil NPCs, and 1 more in the uncommon races.
In fact, looking at all ARG races (without variant heritages), you get a net racial modifier of -12 to Str.
Con is -2, Int +6, Wis +8, Cha +4.
Dex is +48.
Variant heritages have more strength than dex bonuses, but the overall total is still +2 Str to +60 Dex.
Interestingly, variant heritages also swing mental stats significantly in favour of Wis and Cha at +18 each, compared to +2 Int (mostly because of the five tiefling variants with Int penalties).
And looking at the number of bonuses... Int still only gets 6 without variant heritages and 10 with, making it the second-most-rare bonus behind Con (6 & 11). That's consistent with the idea that both Str & Int are considered "strong" stats - and they are, individually.
But I don't think that the combination of Str & Int is any stronger than the more common Dex & Int, especially when some of the Dex/Int races (elves, tieflings) get features that are really useful to casters.
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Racial bonuses to strength itself are uncommon. None of the core get it (human and half-humans don't count,) only two of the featured races have it, (6 if you count the aasimar and tiefling variants) and one of them is intended only for evil NPCs, and 1 more in the uncommon races.In fact, looking at all ARG races (without variant heritages), you get a net racial modifier of -12 to Str.
Con is -2, Int +6, Wis +8, Cha +4.
Dex is +48.
Variant heritages have more strength than dex bonuses, but the overall total is still +2 Str to +60 Dex.
Interestingly, variant heritages also swing mental stats significantly in favour of Wis and Cha at +18 each, compared to +2 Int (mostly because of the five tiefling variants with Int penalties).
And looking at the number of bonuses... Int still only gets 6 without variant heritages and 10 with, making it the second-most-rare bonus behind Con (6 & 11). That's consistent with the idea that both Str & Int are considered "strong" stats - and they are, individually.
But I don't think that the combination of Str & Int is any stronger than the more common Dex & Int, especially when some of the Dex/Int races (elves, tieflings) get features that are really useful to casters.
You don't understand though... fighters aren't allowed to have skill points. You're rocking the boat, man, rocking the boat!!
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Honestly strength might be strong when it's used with a melee fighter, but the other stats (charisma notwithstanding) are just either more versatile or give your character a huge weakness if you dump them. It's the stat I dump the most often and with good reason.
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I expect it is much more driven thematically than out of any mechanical consideration.
I don't see STR being stronger than DEX, indeed with the multiple ways to get DEX bonus to damage, but not a single way to get STR bonus to AC, I'd argue it is the opposite.
I expect the real problem is that a) small races are going to be dex not str almost exclusively, and b) in a game where concepts are based largely on myth, you find many myths where the vaguely humanish things are more quick than strong, and the strong things are either large, or fearsome in such a way that they wouldn't be 1HD creature.
This tends to mean that STR boosting things are rare, not because of balance, but because of source material.
I expect that when the design team sets about building a new race (which is fairly rare anyway) they focus a whole lot more on the feel of the race and how it will inspire people, which partially includes being true to its mythological base, then they are about having all stat combinations balanced equally across the races.
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Honestly strength might be strong when it's used with a melee fighter, but the other stats (charisma notwithstanding) are just either more versatile or give your character a huge weakness if you dump them. It's the stat I dump the most often and with good reason.
Depending on the build - it's generally either the primary stat, or barely useful at all. The only common build I can think of off the top of my head with it as secondary or tertiary is archery.
Meanwhile - Dex/Con/Int/Wis (a bit less so Int than the other 3) are useful for everyone.
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I don't see STR being stronger than DEX, indeed with the multiple ways to get DEX bonus to damage, but not a single way to get STR bonus to AC, I'd argue it is the opposite.
Indirectly STR does give you AC -- you just have to spend money buying it. You need a decent strength in order to move around in the medium and heavy armors. You should be very careful even with light armors, it is easy to cross into medium encumbrance unless you increase it a little bit.
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I don't see STR being stronger than DEX, indeed with the multiple ways to get DEX bonus to damage, but not a single way to get STR bonus to AC, I'd argue it is the opposite.Indirectly STR does give you AC -- you just have to spend money buying it. You need a decent strength in order to move around in the medium and heavy armors. You should be very careful even with light armors, it is easy to cross into medium encumbrance unless you increase it a little bit.
Once you can afford mithril it's not hard. Heck - mithril full plate is the same as a normal chain shirt. In addition - any character who wears armor & has a STR below 10 can just grab the Muscle of the Society trait.
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I don't see STR being stronger than DEX, indeed with the multiple ways to get DEX bonus to damage, but not a single way to get STR bonus to AC, I'd argue it is the opposite.Indirectly STR does give you AC -- you just have to spend money buying it. You need a decent strength in order to move around in the medium and heavy armors. You should be very careful even with light armors, it is easy to cross into medium encumbrance unless you increase it a little bit.
Ant Haul is a first level spell that lasts 2 hours per caster level and is not even personal. My 9 strength investigator loves using it to stay at a light load.
I'd think the reason is due the lack of races with a bonus to Str in general. Not one core race has +2 strength with +2 and -2 to another stat. That's why any strength base character is human or half-elf in almost all cases.
So the question is no where are the Strength + Int but where is the Str in general. In the Advanced Race Guide you have Orcs, Oreads, Nagji, Sulis. So with so few Str racial stats it's reasonable that the combination with Int would be next to non-existent.
I don't really think it has any mechanical reasons so much as after conceptualization very few races fit +Str +Int as well as they do some other combo
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You're overlooking Jiangshi-spawn Dhampirs (+2 STR, +2 INT, -2 DEX) - which I personally helped deliver on. ^_^
You're overlooking Jiangshi-spawn Dhampirs (+2 STR, +2 INT, -2 DEX) - which I personally helped deliver on. ^_^
Whops, forgot Dhampirs had variants too.
In Blood of the Moon Scaleheart Skinwalkers were +2str +2 int -2 wis. In Inner Sea Races the int bonus was changed to a con bonus.
I did not know that. Thank you. :)
For what it's worth, if you're using point-buy you can just dump the stat(s) you get a bonus to and bump the one you want. The only "downside" is that the math makes it impossible to achieve the theorycraft maximum +4 or +5 in your main stat at level 1, but you still have a very viable character that can be more well-rounded stat-wise.
It would be nice to see races with stat mods like...
1)+2Str +2Int -2Wis
2)+2Con +2Int -2Str
3)+2Dex +2Con -2Str
4)+2Str +2Con -2Dex
5)+2Str +2Dex -2Con
6)+2Int +2Cha -2Str
7)+2Int +2Wis -2Str
8)+2Wis +2Cha -2Str
9)+2Con +2Int -2Wis
10)+2Con +2Int -2Cha
11)+2Con +2Int -2Dex
12)+2Con +2Wis -2Dex
Would love to see alternate racial mods for Lashunta.
Female +2Int +2Cha -2Str
Male +2Str +2Int -2Cha
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Would love to see alternate racial mods for Lashunta.
Female +2Int +2Cha -2Str
Male +2Str +2Int -2Cha
I wouldn't mind a sexually dimorphic race that has it the other way around, too (mighty females, lithe males) - be good for a race of anthropomorphic mosquitoes (which, incidentally, has precedent in DRAGON magazine's 3.5 conversion of the China Miéville races).
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I wouldn't mind a sexually dimorphic race that has it the other way around, too (mighty females, lithe males) - be good for a race of anthropomorphic mosquitoes (which, incidentally, has precedent in DRAGON magazine's 3.5 conversion of the China Miéville races).Would love to see alternate racial mods for Lashunta.
Female +2Int +2Cha -2Str
Male +2Str +2Int -2Cha
Or any other insectoid race.
Many arthropods have larger females than males.The infamous Black Widow spiders and Praying Mantises, for instance.
There's also arthropods where the femlae population significantly outnumbers the male; members of the Apocrita suborder (ants, bees, and wasps) come to mind.
So if we see a Formain or Thriae player race, I'd *hope* for sexual dimorphic stats skewed for physically strong females.
I wouldn't mind a sexually dimorphic race that has it the other way around, too (mighty females, lithe males) - be good for a race of anthropomorphic mosquitoes (which, incidentally, has precedent in DRAGON magazine's 3.5 conversion of the China Miéville races).Would love to see alternate racial mods for Lashunta.
Female +2Int +2Cha -2Str
Male +2Str +2Int -2ChaOr any other insectoid race.
Many arthropods have larger females than males.
The infamous Black Widow spiders and Praying Mantises, for instance.
There's also arthropods where the femlae population significantly outnumbers the male; members of the Apocrita suborder (ants, bees, and wasps) come to mind.
So if we see a Formain or Thriae player race, I'd *hope* for sexual dimorphic stats skewed for physically strong females.
Even most birds and lizards have the females being larger and stronger than the males.
It would be nice to see races with stat mods like...
1)+2Str +2Int -2Wis
2)+2Con +2Int -2Str
3)+2Dex +2Con -2Str
4)+2Str +2Con -2Dex
5)+2Str +2Dex -2Con
6)+2Int +2Cha -2Str
7)+2Int +2Wis -2Str
8)+2Wis +2Cha -2Str
9)+2Con +2Int -2Wis
10)+2Con +2Int -2Cha
11)+2Con +2Int -2Dex
12)+2Con +2Wis -2DexWould love to see alternate racial mods for Lashunta.
Female +2Int +2Cha -2Str
Male +2Str +2Int -2Cha
I think we should probably avoid any stat mods that are +con/+mental stat/-physical stat, though admittedly the ship on that has already sailed with dwarves.