Probably because the writer thinks that tax feat prereqs are a good thing that prevents powercreep and emulates training progression.
Perhaps there was a word from on high about "you know those feats from the ARG that nobody ever takes? Make them prereqs for something." Since I've literally never seen anybody consider "Elven Battle Training" for even a half-second before Elven Battle Style existed.
There's also the issue that for a while "feats that take a lot of other feats to get" was considered a way to fix the fighter without boosting everybody else too.
Maybe, but Combat Expertise is literally the second most required prereq feat (after Improved Unarmed Strike), with over 100 other subsequent feats!
Actually, pure DPR wise, you're probably better of with Improved Critical. The damage increase is only roughly 5% for Dragon Style or 10% for Ascetic Style, which is pretty small compared to a working Medusa's Wrath (which increases the damage by ca. 33%), but it's almost unconditional, can be used in combination with the extra attack from Ki (only relevant once per enemy, mind), and you don't loose BAB (plus 1/4 of a AC, "pounce" range, and damage increase).
On the plus side of a dip, Crusader Cleric comes with free Weapon Focus and wand usage. And, of course, staggered is a nasty condition!
It should also be noted that Medusa's Wrath is a free finishing move, because it's almost always active against enemies under 0 HP, including those with Ferocity.
I'd only go Shatter Defenses if the GM allows me to retrain a monk bonus feat into it on a Scaled Fist at 10th level.
El guido es updato! Includes Invested Regent and Vested Powers.
One thing to note with Ninja/Monk is that their Ki pool ends up based on a choice of WIS or CHA, so you don't need to go Scaled Fist.
A Sage Counselor Monk gets Combat Expertise and feint feats free, and can feint as a swift action when using flurry. They lose the normal extra ki attack ability, but Ninja already has it.
That and Moonlight Stalker Feint. Which is really great, until you run into something that sees through your concealment.
The Cleric Darkness Domain is the only sure concealment I think, though that requires a touch, unarmed strike or Conductive weapon to apply.
Hey Wizard! I loved your guide and was very intrigued about the Catfolk FCB build thing. Can you tell me some more about it? How does it work mechanically? Are Claw Blades just like any other monk weapon but with scaling damage from he FCB or is there something weird going on there?
I really wanna play a character that is using it.
Are Claw Blades just like any other monk weapon but with scaling damage from he FCB or is there something weird going on there?
Claw Blades also work with Style Strikes (would be kind of a big deal if Ascetic Form didn't exist), and with feats that explicitly require claws (Claw Pounce and the really crappy Rending Claws).
They still don't work with the extra attack by spending ki, mind.
Even if getting that benefit for free, would it be worth getting Ascetic Form? I can think of getting Stunning Fist with the claws, but what else would I wanna get from it?
As written, Ascetic Style works like this for a Monk:
Monk class features that now work with the weapon:
● Stunning Fist
● Ki Pool's DR penetration
● The scaling damage
● Dealing full strength on off hand attacks (almost never relevant).
Other things that now work with the weapon:
● Feats like that enhance US, e.g. Weapon Focus
● Feats like that have IUS as a prereq, e.g. Hex Striker
● Traits that enhance US, e.g. Bullied
● Items that enhance US, e.g. Amulet of Mighty Fist (multiple enhancement bonuses don't stack, but other magic weapon abilities can be stacked with them)
● Spells that enhance US, e.g. Magic Fang
Monk class features that do not work with Ascetic Style:
● The extra attack from Ki Pool
● Style Strikes
● Ki Blocker, One Touch, and Quivering Palm
● Flurry of Blows (only relevant for tri-point double-edged sword and urumi).
All of these are 'unlocked' by Ascetic Form, though.
Thing I'm not sure about:
● The ability to deal nonlethal damage without penalty (on one hand, that basically comes from the general rules for US, but on the other hand, it it explicitly mentioned in the Unarmed Strike class feature)
● Weapon Finesse
● Effects that only apply to natural attacks - the "is treated as (...) a natural weapon [blah]" line does make US better, but only indirectly.
Are you saying I can have 2 weapon focus and they'll stack!?
No, the feat explicitly says "Its effects do not stack." It would also presumably count as untyped bonuses from the same source.
I copied that from another thread where Weapon Focus (Unarmed) was the topic, that's why I used that as an example feat; Nightmare Fist would probably have been a better example. Although with Ascetic Style and five levels in Monk, Weapon Focus (Unarmed) applies to all monk weapons, e.g. Shurikens.
Being able to apply Ascetic Style and Form to shuriken is more than a little interesting as a backup weapon. 1d10 Dragon Ferocity shuriken!
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I tried building the 12th level critical ascetic build in hero lab.
It doesn't let me flurry with the urumi, but it does let me do it with the temple sword and other monk melee weapons. And if it lets me flurry, it lets me add the bonus attack from using ki. It didn't occur to me to test it with shuriken, but i'll have to test that tonight.
It doesn't add the elemental fury damage to any weapon I tried.
Not sure if that's a hero lab error or if they're correct.
I don't know if anyone's mentioned this yet. The Invested Regent specifies that you "Can" replace a bonus feat with a reagent power. Technically you only give up your first bonus feat. You could still choose to never take a single Vested Power and go all regular bonus feats if you so chose. That means you wont miss out on Medusa's Wrath.
[Hero Lab] doesn't let me flurry with the urumi, but it does let me do it with the temple sword and other monk melee weapons.
Urumi should work as the chosen weapon but should not be enabled by the special line. That's because "monk weapon" is defined in the CRB as a weapon with the monk special weapon property, while Ascetic Style's first sentence checks the weapon group.
And if it lets me flurry, it lets me add the bonus attack from using ki.
That I consider a definite error. It's clearly not an "[effect] that augment[s] an unarmed strike", but a "class ability that can be used with an unarmed strike", and thus requires Ascetic Form.
It doesn't add the elemental fury damage to any weapon I tried.
That I'm not sure about, as you can see in my list in post 215 (last point). It basically depends on whether indirect augmentation counts or not. Elemental Fury augment's a Monk's US (due to the class feature of the same name), but not US in general.
@James Gibbons: That's even explicitly stated: "The invested regent need not do so and can instead take the bonus feat (...)"
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So, I wanted to see how much I could break things.
Shuriken doing d10 with ascetic. Check
Then switched that feats to butterfly sword, and it's doing the d10.
Added +1 corrosive Flaming Amulet of Mighty Fists and a +1 Frost bodywrap of Mighty strikes.
Confirm that HL adds all four elemental damages to the unarmed strike but adds none of it to the butterfly sword. Correctly does not add the +1 enhancement bonuses and only adds it one.
Then for gits and shiggles I added in the two weapon fighting and improved two weapon fighting, and used unarmed strikes as main hand and butterfly sword as off hand.
Gives both the extra attacks from flurry, albeit with offhand penalties as appropriate.
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While it is true that "There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed.", is that the case for the Ascetic UnMonk using a manufactured weapon (in the case above a butterfly sword) for an off-hand attack while having spent six feats between Weapon Focus, 3 Ascetic feats, and 2 more on two weapon fighting and improved two weapon fighting? I feel like even in this extreme corner case that the off hand weapons should not get the extra flurry attacks nor the extra one from spending ki. But maybe it should still get the normal off hand attacks based on BAB? Specifically at level 12, the BAB+12/+7 (And then all attacks both on and off hand taking the -2 TWF penalty with a light weapon in the off hand?)
Or maybe it would get the flurry attacks because it is a monk weapon and that's why the ascetic feats are banned in PFS?
It's fun to try and see how and where it breaks HL (and the system too for that matter). And it's helpful to talk about it here so I can get second opinions about whether things are working how they're supposed to or not. Granted the ascetic isn't PFS legal so I'll never see this at a convention or game day, but I do home play the adventure paths and I've been debating between Greatsword fighter or UnMonk for our upcoming Reign of Winter campaign. (And the Dwarven Earth Child build might be fun for tripping and pummeling the ogres and frost giants I'm sure to be facing in that AP. And the party rogue will enjoy sneak attacking prone giants.)
Plus, on a personal level, my handwriting is atrocious, and HL makes character sheets my DM's can read.
You simply can not combine Flurry of Blows with two weapon fighting: "[The monk] does not gain any additional attacks beyond what’s already granted by the flurry for [using multiple weapons when making a flurry of blows]."
At 12th level with Ascetic Form and Imp. TWF, you can choose between Flurry for +12/+12/+12/+7 (+12 if you spend a ki) or TWF for +10/+10/+5/+5. All of these attacks would add full STR on the damage roll.
Unless they print a unMonk archetype that replaces Flurry of Blows, the TWF chain of feats is utterly useless for unMonk.
By the way, Ascetic Strike doesn't do anything on a (single class) unMonk.
It's fun to try and see how and where it breaks HL (and the system too for that matter).
The system is fine, it's only Hero Labs that has troubles with the feat. There are few corner cases I listed under "Things I'm not sure about" above (basically if indirect enhancements still count), but Ascetic Style is far from breaking the game or anything.
Plus, on a personal level, my handwriting is atrocious, and HL makes character sheets my DM's can read.
That's why I do my character sheets in excel!
Hope this isn't too much of a necro, but it seems the best place to ask.
I really, really like that Scaled Enforcer build, but I'm wondering how you'd distribute skill ranks, since you'd only get three per level. Max intimidate and perception, and then what?
Hope this isn't too much of a necro, but it seems the best place to ask.
I really, really like that Scaled Enforcer build, but I'm wondering how you'd distribute skill ranks, since you'd only get three per level. Max intimidate and perception, and then what?
Then you pick the Peerless Courtier feat three times if possible :P
I don't know if anyone's mentioned this yet. The Invested Regent specifies that you "Can" replace a bonus feat with a reagent power. Technically you only give up your first bonus feat. You could still choose to never take a single Vested Power and go all regular bonus feats if you so chose. That means you wont miss out on Medusa's Wrath.
Holy shit you are right
Starting a 25 point buy game soon. Invested reagent here I come!
so lucky
I rolled stats that I think might make Invested Regent worth it:
STR 17 DEX 14 CON 12 INT 11 WIS 17 CHA 17
Using default Aasimar as the race. I guess take Divine Favor at level 2? Not sure what kind of build Invested Regent would suit best, but I love the idea of it.
I rolled stats that I think might make Invested Regent worth it:
STR 17 DEX 14 CON 12 INT 11 WIS 17 CHA 17
Using default Aasimar as the race. I guess take Divine Favor at level 2? Not sure what kind of build Invested Regent would suit best, but I love the idea of it.
Well, use Fate's Favored to boost it.This archetype looks interesting. A monk born to rule, lol.
Well, use Fate's Favored to boost it.This archetype looks interesting. A monk born to rule, lol.
"The youngest son of a noble family escapes the betrayal that results in the bulk of his kin being killed/imprisoned, and runs away to the monastery to get training so he can get revenge" is practically a classic Kung Fu trope, so it kind of works the other way as "someone born to rule becomes a monk."
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Any way to make Kyton style work for the Umonk?
To be totally fair... Kyton Style WORKS for UnMonk. Problem is that it has too little upsides compared to other options.
It offers a pretty interesting set of tools:
- Shield AC bonus, which no other monk can get
- Extra vicious damage (and encouragement for the vicious weapon enhancement)
- 2H weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse
Here's how I'd build:
- Half-Orc
- Chain Fighter alternate racial (and probably several other alt racials)
- S14 D15+2 C14 I10 W14 CH8
Progression:
1. Toughness, (Dodge)
2. (Combat Reflexes)
3. Kyton Style
4. (Barkskin), +1 DEX
5. Weapon Finesse
6. (Mobility), (Furious Defense)
7. Kyton Shield
8. (Up to you)
9. Kyton Cut
10. (Whatever)
11. Power Attack
So the basic conceit is that you have enough HP to use Vicious well enough... and enough AC and Reflex saves to protect you from anyone trying to hit your hit points elsehow. Furious Defense is there for when your +1 vicious weapon is almost going to kill you.
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I rolled stats that I think might make Invested Regent worth it:
STR 17 DEX 14 CON 12 INT 11 WIS 17 CHA 17
Using default Aasimar as the race. I guess take Divine Favor at level 2? Not sure what kind of build Invested Regent would suit best, but I love the idea of it.
For sure! This is an awesome stat line for an Invested Regent.
Personally don't agree. Delaying your second Flurry attack to level 15 instead of 11 makes the world of difference. The stunted ki pool, no Flying Kick til late-mid game, the hit to BAB, the hit to saves, the hit to HD for a measly few points of damage and shitty ass Rogue Talents is pretty damn meh.
Style Master helps with the style feat build up but everything else works against it.
- Shield AC bonus, which no other monk can get
That's not true - every monk can get a shield bonus, if only a +1, by fighting defensively with a blocking weapon (e.g. Sansetsukon).
10th level ki power should always be Ki Leech - if you're emo enough (which I presume you are, seeing how you're comnstantly inflicting harm upon yourself), you might even get a ki point by knocking yourself below 0 HP!
Seriously though, I don't see the appeal of Kyton Style. I mean, it's not unusuable bad, but the flavor could be done with a nine-section whip, the AC bonus isn't really that much defense when you knock yourself out with three full attacks, and the damage is good but not at Ascetic Style or VMC Barbarian levels. Remember that you can't make style strikes or the bonus ki attack with the weapon!
@Perspicacious Wanderer: Invested Regent works with most Monk builds, although obviously ones that need multiple bonus feats don't mix terribly well. For Divine Favor, apart from Fate's Favored, you'll probably want Quicken Spell-Like Ability at 11th level.
@Torbyne and @Derklord:
You both mention PFS-illegal options in Ascetic Style and Unhindering Shield. While absolutely valid, remember that this guide is 100% PFS-oriented so I usually shape my answers towards that. I added Ascetic Style builds because I'd consider remiss not to do that, but at all points clarifying it's not PFS valid. I've honestly thought about removing them from the build list because it detracts from the main point of my guide... which no, it's not "PFS-friendly guide for Monks", it's...
@Perspicacious Wanderer: Invested Regent works with most Monk builds, although obviously ones that need multiple bonus feats don't mix terribly well. For Divine Favor, apart from Fate's Favored, you'll probably want Quicken Spell-Like Ability at 11th level.
..."you don't need cheese to make a viable, fun character".
Any GM allowing QSLA for a PC should reconsider. An extreme amount of exploitable things could be done with that. It's a Monster feat for a reason.
No problem!
And yeah, Unhindering Shield is a totally valid option, the problem about it is that it represents either:
- 1 splash class level
- 2 dead feats (a level for prof, a level for focus, and you only enjoy it at the third feat... 5 levels later after the first investment)
- or there's playing Human and having 2 dead feats only until level 3.
So it's not like it's 100% upside.
I'm glad they aren't! SAD builds remove any sort of tension or relatability for me. I like when my character has incentives to be well-rounded, yannow, like most characters in fantasy.
As a matter of fact, if someone had asked me to design the Monk class, I'd have made something that encourages having at least 12 on every attribute, rather than focusing on a couple of them. Self-perfection and all.
if they were compatible the class still isn't sad. You still need str to hit and damage, dex helps AC and saves, con helps HP and saves, int is skill points, wis would still be will saves, and cha is now a good stat. Like, they'd still want all stats positive if possible.
and also, I'm not completely sure about what your fantasies are, because a lot of fantasy heroes are not well-rounded. strong and dumb, strong and gruff/anti-social, strong and clue-less, smart and superior/anti-social, smart and frail, charismatic to get followers but reliant on their aide to actually have a plan.
Like sure, there are some heroes that are more well-rounded, but I feel that it's hardly the majority.
remember that this guide is 100% PFS-oriented so I usually shape my answers towards that.
Sure, but I wasn't making suggestions for your guide, I was answering a post in this thread. Unless specified, I presume people to be talking about home games. Not the least because PFS bans are so ridiculously arbitrary that I would have to look up every single f*!+ing thing and I'm really not willing to do that.
..."you don't need cheese to make a viable, fun character".
Would you call a Gunslinger (or crossbow user) with Rapid Reload "cheese"? Would you call any ranged weapon user with Precice Shot "cheese"? Because that's what the Ascetic Style chain does, it removes arbitrary mechanical limitations.
I don't see what's supposed to be cheesy about Ascetic Style. The Ascetic Style chain is explicitly designed to make weapons usable with unarmed specific stuff, and that's what it does. Even the more narrow of the author's two different "this is how it was supposed to be" version wouldn't really change anything because the real power comes from Ascetic Form (because you really want to use the Ki Pool bonus attack and Style Strikes with your weapon).Ok, stacking an AoMF with a magic weapon is a bit cheesy, I'll give you that, but it's neither a novel thing (projectile weapon users can do that too since forever), nor is it anyhere near incredibly widespread abuses like rage cycling.
Any GM allowing QSLA for a PC should reconsider. An extreme amount of exploitable things could be done with that. It's a Monster feat for a reason.
It's a monster feat bacause paizo designed the game with only human PCs (with only vanilla core classes) in mind. Just like the natural attack discriptions are made for monsters (so what, should any GM allowing natural attack options for PCs reconsider, too?), the monster feats aren't monster feats for balancing reasons but because Paizo thought that only monsters would want to use them.
Let's talk straight for a moment: Why should a GM reconsider allowing Quicken SLA? To make sure the casters are better even in combat in addition to doing most of the out of combat work? Seriously, do you really think a quickened 1st level SLA thrice per day at 11th level is overpowered? At that level, the full casters got stuff like Overland Flight and Teleport, not to mention 6th level spells, the 6/9 caster got 4th level spells, Paladins and Barbarians can fly at that point, and the later just got Come and Get Me if he so desires. Sure, there may be combinations where GSLA was too good, but that's true for a lot of options and should be decided on a case-to-case basis.Also, why do you think does the bestiary explicitly state that PCs "might qualify for them"? That's a weird way to spell "PCs aren't allowed to select those feats"!
I'm not completely sure about what your fantasies are
"Strong, muscular, with a scar across the chest... oh wait, we're aren't talking about those fantasies. Never mind then!"