[Unchained Monk Guide] YOU ARE ALREADY DEAD


Advice

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I don't know, it's my first pen and paper RPG and grappling sounds incredibly awkward, like what, i just hold a guy for 6 seconds ? Man, i don't think i'm ready for an Electric Eel grappling half-orc, punching and intimidating baddies is definitely more comfortable

Perfect Scholar does sound like a good fix for a group that has no wizard, while Scaled Fist would compensate for no Paladin. But if i end up with a wizard, do i need to take some other archetype not to end up useless or is it still useful ?

By the way, i've found your posts on other monk threads very useful, along with those of Imbictus, and Chess Pwn the Concise Dice Dude who always seems to be able to answer any problems in 2 to 3 lines. Your previous posts answered many questions of mine on archetypes, feats and the like, so thank you guys.


Oh my electric eel style sounds so fun to use. I must try it! Should you just go full on grappling with the build? Can I even use medusas wrath while grappling?


I really want to create a character that suits this drawing.

https://yamaorce.deviantart.com/art/Drow-Monk-591439475

But I still can not figure out which archetype to take, will you advise?


Jhorzeb wrote:

I don't know, it's my first pen and paper RPG and grappling sounds incredibly awkward, like what, i just hold a guy for 6 seconds ? Man, i don't think i'm ready for an Electric Eel grappling half-orc, punching and intimidating baddies is definitely more comfortable

Perfect Scholar does sound like a good fix for a group that has no wizard, while Scaled Fist would compensate for no Paladin. But if i end up with a wizard, do i need to take some other archetype not to end up useless or is it still useful ?

By the way, i've found your posts on other monk threads very useful, along with those of Imbictus, and Chess Pwn the Concise Dice Dude who always seems to be able to answer any problems in 2 to 3 lines. Your previous posts answered many questions of mine on archetypes, feats and the like, so thank you guys.

If you wanna go Scaled Fist with 6 INT, it's totally viable. Use your feats to get Cunning (+1 rank per level) and Peerless Courtier, which you can pick up to three times and grants you full ranks on CHA skills.


Woodoodoo wrote:
Oh my electric eel style sounds so fun to use. I must try it! Should you just go full on grappling with the build? Can I even use medusas wrath while grappling?

I'd give an emphasis on grappling, yeah, but the sweetest part is having two potential sources of staggering/stunning/etc. from Electric Eel Shock and Stunning Fist, both able to trigger Medusa's Wrath.

Sadly you can't really grapple and Medusa's, but if, while grappling, you shock the enemy and stagger them, that's a good a time as any to release a Wrath on them and then use your +4 to reestablish the grapple.

PhD. Okkam wrote:

I really want to create a character that suits this drawing.

https://yamaorce.deviantart.com/art/Drow-Monk-591439475

But I still can not figure out which archetype to take, will you advise?

Boar Style looks fitting. Piercing/Slashing damage from the clawed gloves, and she looks like she likes to bathe on the blood of her enemies. Could go for Scaled Fist to maximize Intimidate, or Brazen Disciple to also exploit bluffing.


Is it worth it to use in the monk's builds style strike -Leg Sweep?


PhD. Okkam wrote:

Is it worth it to use in the monk's builds style strike -Leg Sweep?

Too much investment for a situational tool.


PhD. Okkam wrote:

I really want to create a character that suits this drawing.

https://yamaorce.deviantart.com/art/Drow-Monk-591439475

But I still can not figure out which archetype to take, will you advise?

She looks like she's supposed to be wielding a scimitar. Then again, I've never really liked straight unarmed Monks.


dunno those kneepads definitely say bicurious to me


And why exactly scimitar? Maybe something from monk weapons.


Secret Wizard wrote:
dunno those kneepads definitely say bicurious to me

Those Drow just can't resist getting in everyone's business.

PhD. Okkam wrote:
And why exactly scimitar? Maybe something from monk weapons.

Monk weapons on a Drow don't seem right to me. Besides, Dervish Dance is pretty much the one way you can still go DEX-to-damage with Flurry of Blows. All you need is any kind of Channel Energy, and Crusader's Flurry: Scimitar is all yours; there's at least two good and two evil scimitar deities to pick from.

I guess there's also multiclassing Sacred Fist 4 with Whirling Dervish Swashbuckler 4; that gets you DEX-to-damage, flurry, spell buffing and Precise Strike. It's quite a strong combo, especially because they can use a Swordmaster's Flair: Blue Scarf with their scimitar for reach.

Sovereign Court

I don't know if it's already been discussed and/or put into the guide, but the waveblade from Adventurer's Armory 2 should really be considered as a weapon option. 1d6, 18-20 x2 Monk light exotic weapon. The only downside is that it's a weapon that is only within the Close weapon group, and thus isn't valid for Ascetic Style.

However, I think it's possible to take Modified Weapon Proficiency or Weapon Adept as a feat, and add the Versatile Design modification onto it for the Monk fighter weapon group. Then, having Ascetic Style keyed to Unarmed Strike, should allow all the Ascetic Style goodness to apply to the waveblade.


Arassuil wrote:

I don't know if it's already been discussed and/or put into the guide, but the waveblade from Adventurer's Armory 2 should really be considered as a weapon option. 1d6, 18-20 x2 Monk light exotic weapon. The only downside is that it's a weapon that is only within the Close weapon group, and thus isn't valid for Ascetic Style.

However, I think it's possible to take Modified Weapon Proficiency or Weapon Adept as a feat, and add the Versatile Design modification onto it for the Monk fighter weapon group. Then, having Ascetic Style keyed to Unarmed Strike, should allow all the Ascetic Style goodness to apply to the waveblade.

If you're a monk of 5th level or higher I don't see why you couldn't use Ascetic Style with a waveblade. Moreover, I don't see why you'd have to take extra feats to make it work. The Special section at the bottom of the feat reads:

Special: A 5th-level monk or character with the weapon training (monk) class feature can use Ascetic Style with any monk weapon, in addition to the chosen melee weapon.

Since waveblade is a monk weapon (it has the monk tag in the Adventurer's Armory 2 weapon table) it works for a monk of 5th level or higher. It is in the close weapon fighter's group, so it wouldn't work for non-monks out of the box, but that's not super relevant to an Unchained Monk Guide.

Have I missed something?


Arassuil wrote:

I don't know if it's already been discussed and/or put into the guide, but the waveblade from Adventurer's Armory 2 should really be considered as a weapon option. 1d6, 18-20 x2 Monk light exotic weapon. The only downside is that it's a weapon that is only within the Close weapon group, and thus isn't valid for Ascetic Style.

However, I think it's possible to take Modified Weapon Proficiency or Weapon Adept as a feat, and add the Versatile Design modification onto it for the Monk fighter weapon group. Then, having Ascetic Style keyed to Unarmed Strike, should allow all the Ascetic Style goodness to apply to the waveblade.

I forget to add it.

That being said, it's not very exciting. No 1.5x STR to damage, monks don't a ton of feats to make the best of critical feats at high levels...

Add Weapon Style Mastery to mix it up with Dragon Style and it's fantastic though, and firmly in the reign of cheese.

I plan to add a cheesemaster build for this when I remake the build section.

Sovereign Court

GaveUpTheGhost wrote:

If you're a monk of 5th level or higher I don't see why you couldn't use Ascetic Style with a waveblade. Moreover, I don't see why you'd have to take extra feats to make it work. The Special section at the bottom of the feat reads:

Special: A 5th-level monk or character with the weapon training (monk) class feature can use Ascetic Style with any monk weapon, in addition to the chosen melee weapon.

Since waveblade is a monk weapon (it has the monk tag in the Adventurer's Armory 2 weapon table) it works for a monk of 5th level or higher. It is in the close weapon fighter's group, so it wouldn't work for non-monks out of the box, but that's not super relevant to an Unchained Monk Guide.

Have I missed something?

The author (Alexander Augunas) clarified that the weapon style feats within the Weapon Master's handbook always refer to weapon groups for the special effects of the style feats. So, Ascetic Style is referring only to weapons in the "Monk" fighter weapon group.

Of course, reading it RAW, you are correct. But most people try to use the RAI (or as close as one can get), 'cause otherwise it leads to a few weird situations. Secret Monk, IIRC, likes to use the RAI version of it in his guide.

Secret Wizard wrote:

I forget to add it.

That being said, it's not very exciting. No 1.5x STR to damage, monks don't a ton of feats to make the best of critical feats at high levels...

Add Weapon Style Mastery to mix it up with Dragon Style and it's fantastic though, and firmly in the reign of cheese.

I plan to add a cheesemaster build for this when I remake the build section.

It does have niche uses, certainly. Probably better for a Chained Monk. Only reason I was even looking at it was when I was playing around with a Hamatulatsu Master Unchained Monk (which, technically, you can't do, but I find it rather difficult to accept a GM wouldn't allow it in a game). And for that build, a waveblade is nice for Impaling Critical shenanigans. Urumi can also work, but you'd be paying a feat for it, or paying a feat for Weapon Adept/Modified Weapon Proficiency, so it's kind of a wash.

Sovereign Court

I almost forgot: if allowed, one of the best feats for Monks is Celestial Obedience (albeit, more useful at higher levels). If you worship Falayna, then you can get:

+4 sacred bonus on Grapple checks and CMD
Divine Favor 3/Day as a spell-like ability
Strong Arm, which allows your weapon damage to increase by one size.
Crushing Hand 1/Day as a Su ability.

Granted, the two good boons don't kick in until 12th and 16th levels. But an extra +3 luck bonus to attack and damage rolls at 12th, plus Strong Arm at 16th is pretty good use out of a feat. And the obedience is pretty good if you're doing grappling.

Neat trick for Divine Favor: stock up on several 1st level Kitsune Star Gems. By the time you get Divine Favor, making DC 25 Use Magic Device checks to fool them into believing you're Kitsune shouldn't be too hard (even with dumped Charisma). Quicken Spell-like Ability is great if it's allowed.

Another good Empyreal Lord is Lymnieris. At 16th, Greater Polymorph which lasts until you use it again or dismiss it is pretty good too. Transforming yourself into a Large Elemental gives some cool options.

Only downside is that Celestial Obedience is from Chronicles of the Righteous, which isn't among the core line of books.

Lastly, one of the best 1 level dips for a Monk (if one were to dip), IMO, is Bloodrager. Take Extra Rage once or twice, and it brings a significant boost to DPR. It also gives access to the Furious weapon enhancement, for further boost to DPR. It also gives access to Wands (Mage Armor and Shield are great for low levels).

If you have access to Familiar Folio, you can even get a Bloodline Familiar (Protector is a great archetype for your familiar). Taking Boon Companion on a Protector familiar also gets your Familiar the Shield Master ability if one was so inclined.

Urban Bloodrager is a great archetype to consider, as it also eleviates SBDS (Sudden Barbarian/Bloodrager Death Syndrome).

Sovereign Court

Here's an amusing idea I found after playing around with some Monk builds. It's not PFS legal since it requires both the Training weapon enhancement and Ascetic Style. But for games that allow both...

One of the banes of a Monk is not having a good ranged option. Well, if a Monk takes Ascetic Style with Unarmed Strike, Ascetic Form, and is at least 5th level, then he can flurry with all weapons in the "Monk" fighter weapon group.

So, take a 1 level dip into a class that grants proficiency with all martial weapons (or take the Martial Weapon Proficiency feat), and then grab the following item: +X Adaptive Training (Modified Weapon Proficiency: Longbow) Versatile Design (Monk) Composite Longbow.

Modified Weapon Proficiency (Combat) wrote:

Source Adventurer's Armory 2 pg. 11

You know how to use a specific weapon skillfully, even when it has undergone modification.

Prerequisites: Proficiency with the selected weapon.

Benefit: Select one type of weapon, such as longsword. You are always considered to be proficient with modified weapons of that type.

Normal: A modified weapon is treated as one category more difficult to wield.

Special: A warpriestACG with the focus weapon class feature can gain this feat with his deity’s favored weapon in place of his bonus Weapon Focus feat. A magusUM with the kensaiUC archetype can gain this feat with his chosen weapon in place of his bonus Weapon Focus feat.

Training enhancement wrote:

Source Inner Sea Intrigue pg. 52

Aura faint transmutation CL 3rd
Slot none; Price +1 bonus; Weight —
Description
Popular among those who seek to impersonate skilled warriors, a training weapon grants one combat feat to the wielder as long as the weapon is drawn and in hand. The feat is chosen when this special ability is placed on the weapon. That feat cannot be used as a prerequisite for any other feats and functions for the wielder only if she meets its prerequisites. Once chosen, the feat stored in the weapon cannot be changed.
============
Construction
============
Requirements Craft Magic Arms and Armor, magic weapon, creator must have the chosen combat feat and its prerequisites; Price —
Versatile Design wrote:

Source Adventurer's Armory 2 pg. 10

Statistics
Cost +500 gp Weight —
Category Modification; Proficiency Modification
Description
A weapon with the versatile design modification is easier to wield for those skilled with other weapon groups. When versatile design is added to a weapon, choose a fighter weapon group. The modified weapon is considered to be a weapon of that weapon group (such as for the fighter’s weapon training class feature). A melee weapon cannot be considered part of a weapon group for ranged weapons, and vice versa.

Since the "Monk" fighter weapon group has Shuriken, that should allow the Longbow to qualify for Versatile Design (Monk).

When using Ascetic Style, you can now flurry with a bow. Who needs the Zen Archer? (well, apart from offering very good ranged weapon feats...)

EDIT: Alternatively, if you had the feats, you could take a level of a class that granted proficiency with all simple and martial weapons, take the Weapon Adept (Versatile Design: Monk) feat along with Ascetic Style (Unarmed Strike), Ascetic Form, and 5th level Monk. Then, you can flurry with any simple or martial weapon that is so modified. [drool]


I returned from taking a break from these messageboard, so I'm gonna bring this thread back.

@Secret Wizard: Your assessment of the Windstep Monk surprises me. To me, Hurricane Punch is not the archetype's selling point, the Air Walk part is. Monk was always lacking a form on flight, and Windstep monk might be the best remedy for that (presuming you can use Flying Kick while airwalking, which isn't exactly clear but in my opinion you really should).
You don't have to focus on bull rushing at all.

Arassuil wrote:
I think it's possible to take Modified Weapon Proficiency or Weapon Adept as a feat, and add the Versatile Design modification onto [the waveblade] for the Monk fighter weapon group. Then, having Ascetic Style keyed to Unarmed Strike, should allow all the Ascetic Style goodness to apply to the waveblade.

It's easier to use a non-monk weapon with Versatile Design (you need Ascetic Form to flurry with it, but you'll want that feat anyway). Ascetic Style doesn't ask for a type of weapon from the monk group, so you can choose a Versatile Design enhanced weapon. Worth looking at if you can get free proficiency (for instance, a half-orc monk with a falchion - Weapon Focus asks for type of weapon, so no Heirloom Weapon or Ancestral Weapon afaik), or if you want a really specific weapon. Ascetic Style is mandatory for that, but Versatile Design isn't legal for PFS anyway.

Versatile Design also works on a Starknife, finally allowing a single class Sacred Fist monk with Desna's Shooting Star, but the feat requirement is crazy (Weapon Focus, Ascetic Style, Ascetic Form, Divine Fighting Technique, Steadfast Personality, and either Exotic Weapon proficiency or the Varisian Tattoo trait). Doable on a human, I guess, especially if you're satisfied with the Irrepressible trait instead of Steadfast personality.

Arassuil wrote:
if a Monk takes Ascetic Style with Unarmed Strike, Ascetic Form, and is at least 5th level, then he can flurry with all weapons in the "Monk" fighter weapon group.

Only if your GM allows Ascetic Form to work with the special section of Ascetic Style, which it doesn't by RAW.

Arassuil wrote:
Since the "Monk" fighter weapon group has Shuriken, that should allow the Longbow to qualify for Versatile Design (Monk).

That's pretty munchkin-y. 32 melee weapons out of 34 sure looks like a "melee weapon group" to me!


Got a Monk, Amulet of Mighty Fists question for folks and possible equipment suggestion/upgrade if it works.

Was looking at purchasing a Amulet of Mighty Fist for 16,000 gold. Was going to go with the Holy enchantment but when I started browsing through possible +2 enhancement upgrades I spotted something that might be even better.

Furyborn
This special ability can only be placed on melee weapons. A furyborn weapon draws power from the anger and frustration the wielder feels when battling foes that refuse to die. Each time the wielder damages an opponent with the weapon, its enhancement bonus increases by +1 when making attacks against that opponent (to a maximum total enhancement bonus of +5). This extra enhancement bonus goes away if the opponent dies, the wielder uses the weapon to attack a different creature, or 1 hour passes.

From my reading, everything looks legal and with all the multiple attacks Monks get with Ki strike and Flurry of Blows that enhancement bonus should increase real fast.


It's nice if you don't have problems landing your full BAB attacks. And there lies the problem - when you need the bonus on attack rolls the most, that's exactly when it's unreliable. I think in the end it's a "win more" option.


Heya OP, Any thoughts on the Psychic powers added to Monk Ki abilities in the latest martial arts book?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

My take on the new ki powers:

Ki Sunder: ** - Sundering has the usual problems (only works agains a small portion of enemies, and may destroy loot), and without any bonus to combat maneuvers, you'll have troubles landing the maneuver in the first place.
Action Before Thought: ** or **** - it's way too costly early on, but with Ki Leech, it gets rather good.
Bare-Hand Block: ** to ***** - generally crap (without an enhancement bonus from weapon/handwraps/AoMF on the maneuver, you won't land it), but with Ascetic Style and Ki Leech, it can be pretty good. Add in an urban campaign, maybe even with automatic bonus progression, and it's actually a powerhouse.
Breaking-Down Koan: ** to **** - language-dependent means it won't work well in most campaigns, but the effect itself is powerful.
Building-Up Koan: * - the last thing you want to do is confuse yourself.
Master-Thought Koan: ** to **** - has the same restrictions as Breaking-Down Koan. I guess with a a high-wis-high-will character with some reroll power you could use Building-Up Koan on an ally...

Notable SLAs:
Mental Barrier x - the entire line, better than Furious Defense.
Thought Shield x - again the entire line, apart form IV. Presumign your campaign has nasty mind-affecting stuff, obviously.
Placebo Effect (6) - you can supress just about anything nasty (except confusion...), and while it's self-only, it can be a very valueable ability if your campaign leans towards such effects. Also combine well with Burst of Insight.
Glimpse of Truth (10) - band-aid in case no one else in your party has something similar.
Persistent Vigor (10) - fast healing, immunity/help agains some nasty stuff.
Dust Form (12) - hell yeah! Immunity against non-magical damage, half damage/chance to be affected by magic, can move through other creatures. Comes with a get-out-of-jail-free card.
Unshakable Zeal (16) - it lasts all day long! Rather useless with other moral bonuses, of course.
Akashic Form (20) - this is your 20th level ki power, period.
Earthquake (20)[/b] - despite what I just wrote, the idea of a Monk stomping so hard that it creates an actual earthquake is just too awesome.


From which manual they added new SLAs to the qinggong archetype? I mean not the ability itself but where it has been said that SLAs is available (as new option) for the qinggong monk?

Thx to everybody!


Martial Arts Handbook.

List of all the new ones:

The following qinggong powers are available to monks with
the qinggong monk archetype (Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Magic
51) and to unchained monks who meet their prerequisites.

4th-level Ki Powers
Adder Strike UC (1 ki point)
burst of adrenaline OA (1 ki point)
burst of insight OA (1 ki point)
calm spirit OA (1 ki point)
Death from Above UC (1 ki point)
psychic reading OA (1 ki point)

6th-level Ki Powers
Absorb Spirit HA (1 ki point)
enshroud thoughts OA (1 ki point)
mental barrier I OA (1 ki point)
object reading OA (1 ki point)
placebo effect OA (1 ki point)
thought shield I OA (1 ki point)

8th-level Ki Powers
deadly juggernaut UC (2 ki points)
hypercognition OA (1 ki point)
Jawbreaker UC (1 ki point)
mantle of calm ACG (1 ki point)
mental barrier II OA (1 ki point)
purge spirit OA (1 ki point)
thought shield II OA (1 ki point)

10 th-level Ki Powers
aura alteration OA (1 ki point)
ethereal fists OA (1 ki point)
glimpse of truth UI (2 ki points)
mental barrier III OA (2 ki points)
persistent vigor ACG (1 ki point)
quieting weapons UI (1 ki point)
retrocognition OA (1 ki point)
sessile spirit OA (2 ki points)
thought shield III OA (2 ki points)

12th-level Ki Powers
Bonebreaker UC (2 ki points)
dust form UC (2 ki points)
entrap spirit OA (3 ki points)
Improved Spring Attack UW (3 ki points)
mental barrier IV OA (2 ki points)
thought shield IV OA (2 ki points)

14th-level Ki Powers
mental barrier V OA (2 ki points)
Neckbreaker UC (2 ki points)
prognostication UI (2 ki points)
repress memory OA (2 ki points)
thought shield V OA (2 ki points)

16th-level Ki Powers
unshakeable zeal OA (2 ki points)

18th-level Ki Powers
bilocation OA (3 ki points)
Greater Spring Attack UW (3 ki points)
true prognostication UI (3 ki points)

20 th-level Ki Powers
Akashic form OA (3 ki points)
divide mind OA (3 ki points)
earthquake (4 ki points)
frightful aspect UC (3 ki points)


The blue ones are feats, the others are spells.


Derklord wrote:


Building-Up Koan: * - the last thing you want to do is confuse yourself..

Building-Up Koan is ridiciiiiiculous. Flat attack boosts are super powerful on Monks.

Avoiding the confusion is actually... pretty simple? 15+1/2 level means you need to be able to roll 18 on the save regularly by level 6ish.

Base is +2, traits can give you +2, Iron Will is another +2, Deific Obedience with the right deity can be another +4. Assuming 16 Wisdom, that's +3. A cloak of resistance would be another +1.

That leaves you at +14 on the confusion save, which leaves you... pretty damn close!

BUT here's the thing... with 1 feat investment into Sheltering Stubborness, you can pretty much avoid all the bad things about confusion!

You want to pair BUK with an archetype that loses the swift action free unarmed strike, i.e. Sage Councillor.


Ok, this is crazy. Rereading the respective rules...

"Roll on the following table at the beginning of each confused subject’s turn each round to see what the subject does in that round" Emphasis mine.
"Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on."

As written, confusion only does something when it's active at the start of a creature's turn, and an effect with a duration of 1 round startet on a creature's turn ends right before their next turn. That means RAW, the confusion doesn't affect the Monk, ever. They still need to succeed on the save to benefit, though.

BUK also still costs 2 ki and a swift action - prior to gaining Ki Leech, the ki cost is certainly notable, and a bonus attack at full BAB is hard to compete with.

Also, as written, the bonuses don't last for one round, but "until the end of the round". Which means the defenses are only active against enemies below us in initiative order, unless we delay first to raise to the top of the initiative list (and that's a bit metagame-y).

Secret Wizard wrote:
Building-Up Koan is ridiciiiiiculous. Flat attack boosts are super powerful on Monks.

Ridiculous is when you multiclass out of Monk after getting it. The DC stagnates while your save and wisdom bonuses progress...


Yeah it's pretty silly that the benefits aren't scaling but the DC is.

GOOD JOB PAIZO


Anything I might have missed regarding that you RAW don't ever actually suffer from the confusion?

On a completely different topic, can you please change your evaluation of Improved Critical and Street Style? As you can see from my UnMonk DPR calculator*, even when active, Street Style is way behind other styles (while taking one more feat han I've used for the others). Improved Critical is just very weak, way worse than Jabbing Style, Possessed Hand, or Power Attack, and even worse than Weapon Focus. The statement of "Best damage boost you’ll get from any feat." is just plain wrong. Armed build without Ascetic Style is probably the only case where there aren't multiple better feats easily aviable.

*) Not adjusted for handwraps yet.


since confusion is rolled right at the start of the confused person turn.("Roll on the following table at the beginning of each confused subject’s turn") and he uses swift action for the koan that mean that in that turn the roll can't be done(he's turn already started and he acted, not the start anymore). and by the start of his his next turn a round has passed and he is no longer confused.


Derklord wrote:

Anything I might have missed regarding that you RAW don't ever actually suffer from the confusion?

On a completely different topic, can you please change your evaluation of Improved Critical and Street Style? As you can see from my UnMonk DPR calculator*, even when active, Street Style is way behind other styles (while taking one more feat han I've used for the others). Improved Critical is just very weak, way worse than Jabbing Style, Possessed Hand, or Power Attack, and even worse than Weapon Focus. The statement of "Best damage boost you’ll get from any feat." is just plain wrong. Armed build without Ascetic Style is probably the only case where there aren't multiple better feats easily aviable.

*) Not adjusted for handwraps yet.

I'll give it a look, it just doesn't seem logical that No Style deals more damage than Jabbing or Street Style. How does that work??


at higher levels (16th+, once you get 12+ attacks per round) jabbing is very hard to match. you need a really high str score to have dragon style +50% str match up to it's avrage.


Secret Wizard wrote:
I'll give it a look, it just doesn't seem logical that No Style deals more damage than Jabbing or Street Style. How does that work??

A big part is that "no style" doesn't have any feats not contributing to damage.

Street Style: I didn't include the chance of Street Sweep to knock the target prone, as the chance heavily depends on the enemy (you need a successful CMD check and allow a fortitude save). Without that, the style chain boils down to 1d6 damage once per round (which only works when not using ki attack), and the crit damage increase. With a crit chance of below 5%, the damage increase from x2 to x3 can also only be below 5%.

Jabbing Style: Not only is the style a feat behind for 7th and 8th level levels (as I wanted to use the same number of feats, and we can't take Jabbing Master before 9th level), it also has a feat not increasing damage (Jabbing Dancer).

­
For unarmed strikes (or a 20/x2 weapon), Improved Critical increases the overall DPR (barring stuff triggering on critical hits) by always under 5%, that's just the math (5% more critical threats, which have a maximum confirmation chance of 95%, and the reality is usually below that, especially since we're naturally also looking at the iteratives). For instance, for the no style build at 9th level, the DPR increase from Improved Critical is 4,17%. Since all attacks are under the hitcap, a +1 to attack rolls always increases damage by over 5% (in this case, the increase on the full BAB attacks would be from 75% chance to 80% chance, an increase of 6.67%). It looks different with greater inherent crit ranges or multipliers, because Improved Critical doubles or triples it's damage increases with those.

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