When flaking with yourself using Dimensional Savant, do you count as your own ally for the purpose of applying your own Teamwork feats? For instance, does Outflank and Precise Strike trigger?
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I was looking at options for front liners and I am not too happy with the AC without armor. I considered doing a level of monk to get crane style, but then you are stuck flurrying with something like a cestus unless you do a strength build.
Eh. Mage Armor is an all-day spell and works okay, especially in combination with a Dex focus. Mirror Image necessitates a little buffing, but is very worth it. Really, sounds fine to me. Especially since part of the point of having a stealth character is to scout and get the party time to buff.
I mean, what do you consider good AC? Level +15? Level +20? I usually hear Level +15, with level +20 considered well above average.
A 10th level Eldritch Scoundrel can easily have +7 Dex, +4 Armor, +1 Natural Armor, +1 Deflection, +1 Insight, +1 Luck for 30k or so (toss on a Cloak of Resistance +4, a Headband +2, two +1 weapons, and some Pearls of Power for a full loadout). That's 25. 29 with Shield.
That seems pretty competitive to me.
When flaking with yourself using Dimensional Savant, do you count as your own ally for the purpose of applying your own Teamwork feats? For instance, does Outflank and Precise Strike trigger?
You always count as your own ally, so I'd imagine so.
With the relatively low AC, I'm thinking that an archery build might be a good choice. The spell list is great if you wanted to go into Arcane Archer. I'm not that familiar with how Sneak Attack works with archery, though. What are the workable options?
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With the relatively low AC, I'm thinking that an archery build might be a good choice. The spell list is great if you wanted to go into Arcane Archer. I'm not that familiar with how Sneak Attack works with archery, though. What are the workable options?
In the long term? Greater Invisibility. That's pretty much it. There are some ways to eke out one a round with sniping and the like, which could work to get you to 10th, I suppose. But for full attacks? Greater Invisibility.
And I'm still not at all sure the AC is especially bad. It's not great, but Level +15 without buffing is very doable, and that's not actively bad AC. With buffing its defenses become miles better than almost any non spell caster in the game.
Hmmm... First impressions:
This archetype trumps the idea of Rogues not cornering the skill market. Loosing Sneak Attacks is painful, but it's trading out pure damage for reliability and exactly what people want from a skill monkey. Now you have Rogue's 8 skill points plus a partial spell list, the best spell list for skill monkeys in fact. The fact it is Int. based just solidifies it.
That said, if you want damage there are better options. Invisiblity and full sneak attack can be gotten. If you want Arcane Trickster there are probably better options. If you want to be able to laugh at skill checks, going this archetype full level will probably do it.
In addition, it is very archetype compatible. I'm sure there are plenty of gems that this can work with. Kitsune Trickster is one I have an addiction to and oooh those spare charm persons and Int. to social skills. Lying your pants off has never been this easy.
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Hmmm... First impressions:
This archetype trumps the idea of Rogues not cornering the skill market. Loosing Sneak Attacks is painful, but it's trading out pure damage for reliability and exactly what people want from a skill monkey. Now you have Rogue's 8 skill points plus a partial spell list, the best spell list for skill monkeys in fact. The fact it is Int. based just solidifies it.
That said, if you want damage there are better options. Invisiblity and full sneak attack can be gotten. If you want Arcane Trickster there are probably better options. If you want to be able to laugh at skill checks, going this archetype full level will probably do it.
In addition, it is very archetype compatible. I'm sure there are plenty of gems that this can work with. Kitsune Trickster is one I have an addiction to and oooh those spare charm persons and Int. to social skills. Lying your pants off has never been this easy.
I don't have the book, but I was under the impression that the archetype has 4+ Skill Points (and possibly changed class skills)
I don't have the book, but I was under the impression that the archetype has 4+ Skill Points (and possibly changed class skills)Hmmm... First impressions:
This archetype trumps the idea of Rogues not cornering the skill market. Loosing Sneak Attacks is painful, but it's trading out pure damage for reliability and exactly what people want from a skill monkey. Now you have Rogue's 8 skill points plus a partial spell list, the best spell list for skill monkeys in fact. The fact it is Int. based just solidifies it.
That said, if you want damage there are better options. Invisiblity and full sneak attack can be gotten. If you want Arcane Trickster there are probably better options. If you want to be able to laugh at skill checks, going this archetype full level will probably do it.
In addition, it is very archetype compatible. I'm sure there are plenty of gems that this can work with. Kitsune Trickster is one I have an addiction to and oooh those spare charm persons and Int. to social skills. Lying your pants off has never been this easy.
Ah, I don't either, but if that's the case than ignore me. That's kinda unfortunate.
Skill ranks per level 4 + IntMod would still be pretty good for a 6/9 Intelligence-based caster; 6 + IntMod (Alchemist/Investigator) would be super-good, and 8 + IntMod would obsolete all Rogue builds that do not include the Eldritch Scoundrel archetype (actually, even 6 + IntMod would come close to doing this).
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Honestly it probably should have been at least 6+Int to help it catch up to bards, inquisitors, investigators, and mesmirists who have all but overtaken the rouge in the skill monkey department.
Honestly it probably should have been at least 6+Int to help it catch up to bards, inquisitors, investigators, and mesmirists who have all but overtaken the rouge in the skill monkey department.
Oh, come on, it doesn't take THAT much skill to put on makeup . . . .
Honestly it probably should have been at least 6+Int to help it catch up to bards, inquisitors, investigators, and mesmirists who have all but overtaken the rouge in the skill monkey department.Oh, come on, it doesn't take THAT much skill to put on makeup . . . .
Dammit, I thought I stopped doing that.
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Honestly it probably should have been at least 6+Int to help it catch up to bards, inquisitors, investigators, and mesmirists who have all but overtaken the rouge in the skill monkey department.
Eh. 6 levels of Wizard/Sorcerer casting are quite a bit better than 6 levels of Alchemist or Bard casting.
The other Class Features probably make up for it (Good Will Saves in particular), but as much as I love investigator and think it's probably a better skill monkey than this version of the Rogue...it's a better skill class than a Rogue without this Archetype, too.
This isn't the 'I'm the best at skills' archetype, it's the one that gives spellcasting. It should be judged for what it is. It does make Bard a better skill class than Alchemist and probably better than Slayer, and that's some improvement over base Rogue, but that's a side effect, not the point of the Archetype.
Contributor
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Ah, I don't either, but if that's the case than ignore me. That's kinda unfortunate.I don't have the book, but I was under the impression that the archetype has 4+ Skill Points (and possibly changed class skills)Hmmm... First impressions:
This archetype trumps the idea of Rogues not cornering the skill market. Loosing Sneak Attacks is painful, but it's trading out pure damage for reliability and exactly what people want from a skill monkey. Now you have Rogue's 8 skill points plus a partial spell list, the best spell list for skill monkeys in fact. The fact it is Int. based just solidifies it.
That said, if you want damage there are better options. Invisiblity and full sneak attack can be gotten. If you want Arcane Trickster there are probably better options. If you want to be able to laugh at skill checks, going this archetype full level will probably do it.
In addition, it is very archetype compatible. I'm sure there are plenty of gems that this can work with. Kitsune Trickster is one I have an addiction to and oooh those spare charm persons and Int. to social skills. Lying your pants off has never been this easy.
In addition, since it replaces trap sense, uncanny dodge*, and improved uncanny dodge, it's not very archetype compatible. The only one I can think of off the top of my head is investigator, which only replaces trapfinding.
*That said, since the archetype lets you "buy back" the uncanny dodges, a kind GM might let you pick an archetype and "buy back" its replacements for the uncanny dodges. Totally not RAW, though. ^_^
Ah, I don't either, but if that's the case than ignore me. That's kinda unfortunate.I don't have the book, but I was under the impression that the archetype has 4+ Skill Points (and possibly changed class skills)Hmmm... First impressions:
This archetype trumps the idea of Rogues not cornering the skill market. Loosing Sneak Attacks is painful, but it's trading out pure damage for reliability and exactly what people want from a skill monkey. Now you have Rogue's 8 skill points plus a partial spell list, the best spell list for skill monkeys in fact. The fact it is Int. based just solidifies it.
That said, if you want damage there are better options. Invisiblity and full sneak attack can be gotten. If you want Arcane Trickster there are probably better options. If you want to be able to laugh at skill checks, going this archetype full level will probably do it.
In addition, it is very archetype compatible. I'm sure there are plenty of gems that this can work with. Kitsune Trickster is one I have an addiction to and oooh those spare charm persons and Int. to social skills. Lying your pants off has never been this easy.
In addition, since it replaces trap sense, uncanny dodge*, and improved uncanny dodge, it's not very archetype compatible. The only one I can think of off the top of my head is investigator, which only replaces trapfinding.
*That said, since the archetype lets you "buy back" the uncanny dodges, a kind GM might let you pick an archetype and "buy back" its replacements for the uncanny dodges. Totally not RAW, though. ^_^
:) Totally not RAW as th ability specifically spells out. This alters Uncanny Dodge.
As a skill monkey this class is no all star. Then again I feel like getting 7-8 ranks per level really is sufficient to keep your bases covered. Spells also help a lot.
My gut feeling tells me that the class is prolly better off with more of a caster focus and higher Int as it's melee damage output and defenses are never going to be amazing (a bit like a cleric...).
An Int focus also allows you to be good at skills, particularly DEX and INT based skills which are an important niche role.
Okay, so lets get an actual strategy in here that's at least somewhat exclusive to eldritch scoundrel:
1.)Grab pressure points ninja talent
2.)Get telekinesis or sonic thrust
3.)Fire 15 sneak attacking missiles, each lowering STR or DEX by one
4.)Reduce enemies into piles of immobile flesh.
Spells that cause multiple simultaneous attacks do not allow for Sneak Attack multiple times.
doesn't that pretty well shut down the fiery shuriken thing too then
Only if you fire them all in one round. You could fire one off a round and gain a sneak attack on each
Sniping can do it. I wasn't suggestion it was a good option just that you COULD get a sneak attack with all the missiles.
Also, shooting one is a swift action. A possible use of this would be to snipe as a move, attack as a swift and use your standard to buff, debuff, drink potion, ect. Not awesome in any one category, but it could have uses.
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Okay, so lets get an actual strategy in here that's at least somewhat exclusive to eldritch scoundrel:
1.)Grab pressure points ninja talent
2.)Get telekinesis or sonic thrust
3.)Fire 15 sneak attacking missiles, each lowering STR or DEX by one
4.)Reduce enemies into piles of immobile flesh.Spells that cause multiple simultaneous attacks do not allow for Sneak Attack multiple times.
He's right. It's pretty much the silliest of Paizo's rulings imo, and one I fought well before they made it.
doesn't that pretty well shut down the fiery shuriken thing too thenOnly if you fire them all in one round. You could fire one off a round and gain a sneak attack on each
Actually, you are only limited to one per set of simultaneous attacks, but not one per round, according to the same FAQ -- if you can make multiple separate attacks per round with a spell that is spread out over multiple attacks (usually by having a high enough BAB), you can get Sneak Attack with as many of them as qualify for Sneak Attack otherwise.
Sounds like. Of course, you have less Tricks to use them with, can't use the default effects of ki, and have half the Sneak Attack and fewer skill points.Does that mean the Eldritch Scoundrel has (effectively) MORE Ki points than an actual ninja?
From Rogue Talents:
** spoiler omitted **
Also, a strict reading of the ability means that you have to expend a spell slot of exactly the amount of KI you need to power the ninja trick, so you couldn't burn a 2nd or 3rd level spell for kamikaze as an example.
I really don't know if its a reasonable balance point to enforce such a strict reading.
He's right. It's pretty much the silliest of Paizo's rulings imo, and one I fought well before they made it.
What a horrid ruling. Makes no sense whatsoever by RAW and really takes away much of the appeal of the archetype :(
Not that I've got this book, but is the ki pool replacement worded in such a way that you can use other abilities that require spending ki as well? Such as, for instance, Bewildering Koan?
Not that I've got this book, but is the ki pool replacement worded in such a way that you can use other abilities that require spending ki as well? Such as, for instance, Bewildering Koan?
No...
I think in the current meta, the most reliable way to get flanking is with an animal companion + pack flanking + horsemaster's saddle or be a ratfolk with scurrying swarmer + mauler familiar or animal companion.
I think as an eldritch scoundrel, I probably would do it as another ratfolk. You can get a familiar with a trait and a feat.
Gang Up has always been reliable for me.
Can get flank even if they put their back in a corner.
Aw, shucks. I suppose it would've been too good to be true.
RE: Elven Branched Spear path - I've been contemplating going Gnome.
Master Tinker gives you proficiency in whatever weapon you craft yourself, with some shuffling around you are left with a managable 6 / 18 / 14 / 14 / 12 / 9 after racial modifiers, small size is a pretty decent boon (your reach is still 10'), and between Gnome Magic and Effortless Trickery, you can be hellishly annoying.
And, since you are a gnome, you can probably justify being named something like Inco Gnito or something.
He's right. It's pretty much the silliest of Paizo's rulings imo, and one I fought well before they made it.What a horrid ruling. Makes no sense whatsoever by RAW and really takes away much of the appeal of the archetype :(
I think its a holdover from 3.5, D&D's Rules Compendium had a similar ruling, but that book has suspect support from the 3.5 crowd anyways.
6 / 18 / 14 / 14 / 12 / 9
Elf can do the following which seems superior:
STR 7 DEX 18 CON 12 INT 18 WIS 13 CHA 7
Also elf gets free Spell Focus from an alt race trait so it's way better at casting but slightly worse at hitting.
With 14 casting stat focusing on illusions doesn't seem that hot...
Also one thing to keep in mind Reduce Person is a super sweet buff for medium sized folks but doesn't really do the small folks much good as you no longer threaten.
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You can use bracers of armor if the spell failure bothers you. More expensive, but it's a choice if you want 0 failure.
A much cheaper method? Add an armored kilt to silken ceremonial armor or a haramaki. You now have a base of +2 armor, at 0% spell failure. There's also 0% ACP, so you're not losing anything for non-proficiency. You do lose speed (adding the kilt to light armor makes it medium armor) but hey, you just got the equivalent of a 4,000 GP magic item for 50 GP or less, and your wrist slot is free for something.
So I just learned that Eldritch Scoundrel is only available for the base Rogue in PFS.
For me that pretty much kills it as I was planning on building this guy as a martial character with DEX and INT focus and that's not gonna work out sans DEX to Damage.
You can prolly still build a tricky mage that relies on touch spells (both at range and up close) to deliver the hurt but that seems far less powerful.
So I just learned that Eldritch Scoundrel is only available for the base Rogue in PFS.
For me that pretty much kills it as I was planning on building this guy as a martial character with DEX and INT focus and that's not gonna work out sans DEX to Damage.
You can prolly still build a tricky mage that relies on touch spells (both at range and up close) to deliver the hurt but that seems far less powerful.
Having finally seen it on the internets it already looks like someone took the Rogue out back and shot it so by this point it feels like that is just beating a dead horse.
I was really excited when I saw the basic idea, but people did not state badly enough how much this actually looses. And you can't use unchained in society???? Why? You're already paying an arm and a leg, why make it worse?
So I just learned that Eldritch Scoundrel is only available for the base Rogue in PFS.
For me that pretty much kills it as I was planning on building this guy as a martial character with DEX and INT focus and that's not gonna work out sans DEX to Damage.
You can prolly still build a tricky mage that relies on touch spells (both at range and up close) to deliver the hurt but that seems far less powerful.
Having finally seen it on the internets it already looks like someone took the Rogue out back and shot it so by this point it feels like that is just beating a dead horse.
I was really excited when I saw the basic idea, but people did not state badly enough how much this actually looses. And you can't use unchained in society???? Why? You're already paying an arm and a leg, why make it worse?
I think most would disagree with you that the trades this archetype forces you to make are that bad but yeah I agree...it's no fun without unchained rogue.
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You trade armor proficiency... You have mage armor and shield.
You trade half your SA dice... It hurts, but it's livable.
You trade half your skills per level... But your INT is going to be much higher than a standard rogue, no real loss.
You trade half your Rogue Talents... But you can freely take ninja talents, and you gain a ki pool replacement.
In exchange you get 6th level spellcasting off the best spell list in the game. I'd say it gains more than it loses.
I think most would disagree with you that the trades this archetype forces you to make are that bad but yeah I agree...it's no fun without unchained rogue.
Honestly I haven't talked to someone who thinks it is worth playing yet. I've only heard, "It's terrible." I thought it can't be that bad, but yea... now that I have seen it it has to be terrible.
You are trading way, way more than you are getting back. Like, it's ridiculous. Half-sneak attack and half-talents and both kicked back to the worst level track they could use? Maybe that could be okay, but then you loose armor, uncanny dodge, skill points, trap sense, two of the best rogue skills for that spell list... And all of it just to be a terrible Vivisectionist with cantrips, and a better spell list.
I don't see the point at all. There's nothing that can be achieved with that distribution. If they traded out Sneak Attack, okay it's a Rogue with a lot more utility. If they traded out Rogue Talents, it's a Rogue with a different form of utility. But they cut out half portions of both and huge swathes of the class whole cloth?
None of the comparable archtypes, PrCs, or classes are that vicious. Don't get me wrong, it's a good spell list but it's spending a Magus Arcana (A talent by any other name...) on Spell Blending good. Not being terrible at everything good.
If it were more focused it would be a much better archetype. Full sneak attack, there is a use for that. Full talents, there is huge utility in that. Loosing uncanny dodge and armor? Why? What's the benefit of this archetype? Is the information on d20pfsrd wrong and they also get an Arcane School or a Bloodline? If not, what's the point? Why shouldn't I play say a psychic detective instead? Or just bite the bullet and have terrible BaB for Arcane Trickster? If the spell list is really THAT good, than surely it's better to have a respectable number of class features, full sneak attack, and a higher level of spells all in exchange for BaB?
I'm sorry, I really wanted to like this, but there's no build I can imagine that benefits from it whatsoever.
You trade half your skills per level... But your INT is going to be much higher than a standard rogue, no real loss.
The loss is you have lower other stats now. In theory it's okay, in practice you now need Dex, Str, and Con more than ever and have very middling amounts of each. You aren't excelling at skill points. You're just mediocre at best. Plus, consider whether you should have high int. Is it really that beneficial on a Rogue to have max spellcasting? Or to have just high enough to learn what you need to to use utility? The role and preferred spells for roguish things doesn't traditionally need high int.
Well it's a good thing I don't give a $#!+ about PFS, considering that I can still use the Unchained Rogue and therefor I still like the archetype.
I'll agree that the dump on Sneak Attack was probably unnecessary, but it does still allow for one to dump their feats into Dimensional Savant, Outflank, Accomplished Sneak Attacker, and Precise Strike for some very nice full round self sufficient sneak attacks, with a very decent bonus to hit.
The build thrives on pearls of power, or just making sure you don't have better things to do with those higher spell slots. Preferred Spell (Dimension Door) is probably a really good choice.
Scribe Scroll is another solid choice.
Much like the fighter archetype from this book, the class is viable if you take the right options, albeit limited to a one trick pony kind of ordeal. But that one trick is really good. Oh, plus Fireballs, Magic Missles, Lightning Bolts, Grease pits, acutal pits, obscurring mists, black tentacles, flight, teleporting.
What were we complaining about again, I forget.....
So I just learned that Eldritch Scoundrel is only available for the base Rogue in PFS.
Man, that is bizarre. I don't play PFS, but it seems overly cautious to me.
What were we complaining about again, I forget.....
From the point of view of someone obsessed with wizard spells, that of all the classes attached to those spells, Eldritch Scoundrel is probably the worse.
From the point of view of someone that likes playing Rogues, that this doesn't make Rogue better at their nitch.
From the point of view of someone that likes playing Rogues, that this doesn't make Rogue better at their nitch.
This is demonstrably false.
They end up 4d6 behind in sneak attack by level 19, not a big hit. With Precise Strike and Accomplished Sneak Attacker, for earlier levels you end up ahead of the game, or equal to it.
What a joke that notion is.