As far as ninja tricks go..
Flurry of Stars can definitely be worth a first level spell in some instances. Trading a 1st level spell for 2 extra attacks could be a devastating full-attack routine.
My personal Favorite is Forgotten trick, while it would Cost 2 Ki points, the versatility it provides can do wonders, and it is more palatable to you than a Ninja.
Kamikazi is a great Damage buff for the cost of a 1st level spell, it affects any weapon you wield so you can quick draw thrown weapons for example and still retain the benefit.The self inflicting damage should be handled carefully though.
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Are you afraid that you'll see a table with 6 of this build? I'd be afraid as a GM. :-p
TBF, I think most everybody sees this build option as soon as they read the archetype. Now the trick will be if it gets sanctioned for PFS.
But is this build better than Rogue 1/Wizard 3/Arcane Trickster X?
The 9 level casting easily surpasses casting from Eldritch Scoundrel despite the missed level.
And I'm not sure if the improved marital capacities of the eldritch Scoundrel will actually be utilized by an AT build as it's so super fluffy...
This ^
I keep people saying: "Oh, it's the perfect lead into Arcane Trickster because..." and then listing reason that doesn't make it better than Rogue/Wizard because that combo gets 9th level spellcasting. All you're doing is making a worse version of something that already exists.
Start espousing the merits of the archetype itself. With unchained, you get easier access to debilitating injury (with touch/ranged touch spells), you get access to long-duration illusion magic, skill unlocks combined with magical boosts you can give yourself, plus, as mentioned above, stacking with certain other rogue archetypes as needed. It's like an Arcane Trickster that works from level 1, and is less spell dependent, whereas the Trickster is a spellcaster with rogue-ish tricks.
If you want an "Arcane Trickster" that uses spells as utility and damage is from melee/ranged weapon attacks, go with Eldritch Rogue. Maybe take levels in Arcane Trickster in the teens, but you are getting some snazzy stuff from Eldritch Scoundrel and you don't want absolutely terrible BAB.
If you want an "Arcane Trickster" that uses primarily spells to deal damage, then go Rogue 1/Wizard 3/Arcane Trickster. You will want the more/better spells.
My opinion on it.
I think Ki Charge looks like fun with this archetype...shuriken go boom! heh.
I think that this archetype is just there for the flavor. Alchemist does the transmutation thing better, Magus does the damage thing better, Bard does the enchantment thing better.
As far as ninja tricks go..
Flurry of Stars can definitely be worth a first level spell in some instances. Trading a 1st level spell for 2 extra attacks could be a devastating full-attack routine.
My personal Favorite is Forgotten trick, while it would Cost 2 Ki points, the versatility it provides can do wonders, and it is more palatable to you than a Ninja.
Kamikazi is a great Damage buff for the cost of a 1st level spell, it affects any weapon you wield so you can quick draw thrown weapons for example and still retain the benefit.The self inflicting damage should be handled carefully though.
Agreed on Flurry of Stars and Kamikaze. Kamikaze has the issue that it does not include an action type in it's activation so by default that means it#s a standard action. I'm 99% per cent sure that was not the intent but for PFS I would not want to risk it...
Forgotten trick seems really bad at least before the mid to upper levels as you have to expend a 2nd level spell slot in order to be able to use other ninja powers which then will again require you to expend spell slots.
Arcane Trickster with 1/2 BAB and d6 HD is pretty clearly for people who want to add sneak attack damage to their Wizard's spells. Eldritch Scoundrel OTOH is for people who want to play a Rogue-with-spells. Using Eldritch Scoundrel as an entry to Arcane Trickster gives you the worst of both worlds.
@ Alex Mack - That just means you'd want a string of low-level pearls of power.
@ Alex Mack - That just means you'd want a string of low-level pearls of power.
Second level pearls cost 4k first level pearls cost 1k pretty big difference in my book if were talking multiples.
I'm currently trying to figure which school of magic would be best to get spell focus for. Opinions?
Are you afraid that you'll see a table with 6 of this build? I'd be afraid as a GM. :-p
TBF, I think most everybody sees this build option as soon as they read the archetype. Now the trick will be if it gets sanctioned for PFS.
But is this build better than Rogue 1/Wizard 3/Arcane Trickster X?
The 9 level casting easily surpasses casting from Eldritch Scoundrel despite the missed level.
And I'm not sure if the improved marital capacities of the eldritch Scoundrel will actually be utilized by an AT build as it's so super fluffy...
This ^
I keep people saying: "Oh, it's the perfect lead into Arcane Trickster because..." and then listing reason that doesn't make it better than Rogue/Wizard because that combo gets 9th level spellcasting. All you're doing is making a worse version of something that already exists.
Start espousing the merits of the archetype itself. With unchained, you get easier access to debilitating injury (with touch/ranged touch spells), you get access to long-duration illusion magic, skill unlocks combined with magical boosts you can give yourself, plus, as mentioned above, stacking with certain other rogue archetypes as needed. It's like an Arcane Trickster that works from level 1, and is less spell dependent, whereas the Trickster is a spellcaster with rogue-ish tricks.
The archetype opens up a trait slot (since Magical Knack would be a common selection otherwise), provides Debilitating Injury, and opens up Rogue Talents, along with providing a smoother entry overall by streamlining BAB and spellcasting. I agree that you end up with superior spellcasting starting at level 6 (though it levels off at 7 temporarily) using Rogue 1/Wiz 3/AT X, but there's a degree of suffering on the way up as you have fewer spell slots on the way up.
In the PFS environment, roughly half of your character life is improved by going Eldritch Scoundrel 4/AT X and you end up with a more martial-capable character. While you firmly trail from 8-11 for spellcasting, you'd also be trailing a straight Wizard most of your levels, too.
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Are you afraid that you'll see a table with 6 of this build? I'd be afraid as a GM. :-p
TBF, I think most everybody sees this build option as soon as they read the archetype. Now the trick will be if it gets sanctioned for PFS.
But is this build better than Rogue 1/Wizard 3/Arcane Trickster X?
The 9 level casting easily surpasses casting from Eldritch Scoundrel despite the missed level.
And I'm not sure if the improved marital capacities of the eldritch Scoundrel will actually be utilized by an AT build as it's so super fluffy...
This ^
I keep people saying: "Oh, it's the perfect lead into Arcane Trickster because..." and then listing reason that doesn't make it better than Rogue/Wizard because that combo gets 9th level spellcasting. All you're doing is making a worse version of something that already exists.
Start espousing the merits of the archetype itself. With unchained, you get easier access to debilitating injury (with touch/ranged touch spells), you get access to long-duration illusion magic, skill unlocks combined with magical boosts you can give yourself, plus, as mentioned above, stacking with certain other rogue archetypes as needed. It's like an Arcane Trickster that works from level 1, and is less spell dependent, whereas the Trickster is a spellcaster with rogue-ish tricks.
The archetype opens up a trait slot (since Magical Knack would be a common selection otherwise), provides Debilitating Injury, and opens up Rogue Talents, along with providing a smoother entry overall by streamlining BAB and spellcasting. I agree that you end up with superior spellcasting starting at level 6 (though it levels off at 7 temporarily) using Rogue 1/Wiz 3/AT X, but there's a degree of suffering on the way up as you have fewer spell slots on the way up.
In the PFS environment, roughly half of your character life is improved by going Eldritch Scoundrel 4/AT X and you end up with a more...
Right... except you're not really more martially capable. At 4th level, you are +1 BAB ahead of the Wizard/Rogue. Sure, you've got Debilitating Injury, which is a GREAT debuff you get to automatically apply, but you weaken your combat ability compared to continuing straight through rogue by not getting Debilitating improvements, and suffering from reduced accuracy. You get a few tricks, but you lose out a lot from the combat side. The wiz/rogue, on the other hand, never cared about that. He's a spellcaster that gets bonus skills and sneak attack dice. By going into Arcane Trickster, you're just weakening the one thing that makes the Eldritch Scoundrel unique: the blend of martial skill & supplemental magic. By going into trickster, all you get is a worse version of what already makes you great, and different.
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Don't forget about BAB.
As a Wiz3/Rogue1/AT1 you only have... +1 BAB at 5th level as opposed to +3.
Worth noting for PFS where Fractional BAB isn't an option.
You don't have to stick with AT all the way, it can be used to augment your Sneak Attack dice and maintain the main class. A 1-2 level Dip isn't awful (not to mention the Will Save).
In the PFS environment, roughly half of your character life is improved by going Eldritch Scoundrel 4/AT X and you end up with a more...
So for PFS let's compare ES 11 to ES4/AT 7 should be fairly simple:
BAB: +8 versus +6 in favor of ES
HP: +14 in favor of ES with FCB spent on HP
Saves: 3/7/3 vs. 3/8/5 so free Iron Wil for the AT here
Sneak Attack(assuming both go accomplished SA): +4d6 vs. 5d6 Advantage AT but minor
Skills: Advantage AT due to slightly better skill list
Abilities:
ES: Skill Mastery x2/ Improved debilitating Injury/1 Rogue Talent/Trap Finding bonuses (+3) / 2nd Finesse Training
AT: Ranged Legendermaine/Impromptu SA 2xper day/Tricky spellsx4
Honestly I don't see where the AT build is superior here. Tricky spell is nice but Impromptu SA isn't that great if you have Vanishing trick available as well the difference in HPs and BAB kinda kills the allure of AT for me...
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Upon consideration, I think its pretty clear that Rogue 1/Wizard 3/Arcane Trickster is the best way to make an Arcane Trickster. They have almost full Wizard casting, after all. They also have Wizard BAB and HD, and lose out on most Favored Class bonuses.
An Eldritch Scoundrel, meanwhile, works like all 6-level casters, where the casting is best used to supplement what else they do rather than being the thing they do. Even at only 1/4 levels, Rogue Talents aren't a bad Class Feature, especially with those using Ki Pool as an option, and the ability to buy more with Feats (or use them to get Feats, if you prefer). That plus mid-BAB, better HD, Debilitating Injury, and the like all make for a much better 'martial' build than Arcane Trickster ever will.
And I must agree that an Agile AoMF is a pretty solid way to make shapeshifting for combat completely viable. Also, pretty cheap.
And I must agree that an Agile AoMF is a pretty solid way to make shapeshifting for combat completely viable. Also, pretty cheap.
Agreed. By the time shapeshifting becomes good an Agile Amulet is very affordable. However one should consider shifting into smaller forms and profit from more DEX bonus, also forms allowing you to cast for Swift action defense spells would be nice.
Reduce person is also a very nice low level buff for precisely this reason as it's +2 to hit and AC and has the same sweet duration as Shield. If you pick up 3 or 4 first level pearls you can simply prepare one of each for the day and you should be set.
Working on my elven reach wielder build. Any suggestions for Spell Focus?
I can't get the pdf until tomorrow, what does this archetype use for spellcasting?
Magus spells? Spellbook?
Working on my elven reach wielder build. Any suggestions for Spell Focus?
I was going to say Enchantment could be cool for Modify Memory and similar spells, but apparently those are Bard and Domain spells, for the most part. Sadness. Diviniation could be alright if then took Spell Specialization (Sense Vitals), but that's kind of underwhelming for 2 feats considering how useless Spell Focus (Divination) is overall.
Illusion would help your non-buff illusions. Which I can see you using semifrequently.
Working on my elven reach wielder build. Any suggestions for Spell Focus?I was going to say Enchantment could be cool for Modify Memory and similar spells, but apparently those are Bard and Domain spells, for the most part. Sadness. Diviniation could be alright if then took Spell Specialization (Sense Vitals), but that's kind of underwhelming for 2 feats considering how useless Spell Focus (Divination) is overall.
Illusion would help your non-buff illusions. Which I can see you using semifrequently.
I was also thinking Enchantement. If there's no good schools to focus on Elf does becomes less attractive. I'll have to do some digging.
I made an Arcane Trickster that focuses on Fiery Shrunken, doesn't really come online till 4th level though.
Correct me if anything is wrong but we are looking at 45 dpr no problem at 6th level, 92 dpr no problem at 9th level, 153 dpr no problem at 12th level, 203 dpr no problem at 15th level, and 828 dpr no problem at 18th level.
I'd love critiques on what I am doing wrong or missing.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-PZfv5-lscrQNenjl-Y_75RTZ70vQwPArsx1KEi HukM/edit?usp=sharing
Dimensional Savant = self sufficient sneak attack and full round attacks from a distance.
{. . .}
But is this build better than Rogue 1/Wizard 3/Arcane Trickster X?The 9 level casting easily surpasses casting from Eldritch Scoundrel despite the missed level.
And I'm not sure if the improved marital capacities of the eldritch Scoundrel will actually be utilized by an AT build as it's so super fluffy...
I guess they aren't called Scoundrels for nothing . . . .
Dimensional Savant = self sufficient sneak attack and full round attacks from a distance.
Meet invisible blade
I made an Arcane Trickster that focuses on Fiery Shrunken, doesn't really come online till 4th level though.
Correct me if anything is wrong but we are looking at 45 dpr no problem at 6th level, 92 dpr no problem at 9th level, 153 dpr no problem at 12th level, 203 dpr no problem at 15th level, and 828 dpr no problem at 18th level.
I'd love critiques on what I am doing wrong or missing.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-PZfv5-lscrQNenjl-Y_75RTZ70vQwPArsx1KEi HukM/edit?usp=sharing
Stumbled over this as well in looking for spells yesterday. What is the easiest way of getting SA consistently for all of these? Gotta be improved invisibility or winning initiative right? That does limit it's usefulness a bit...
The nice thing is you don't really have to build for this at all just prepare this and if you happen to catch opponents flat footed BAMBAMBAM fiery death of mass destruction in yo face...
So I was looking over Spell Focus choices for a PFS reach build and while I only got to level 2 last night I really liked conjuration as it has some really sweet debuffs in Snowball, Grease and Glitterdust all of which are awesome.
Enchantment has some very strong picks at level 2 and Charm person at level 1 which is great out of combat.
Also pretty sure I want to be worshipping Pharsma for the super sweet all day buff that is Defending Bone. False Life should also help in staying alive.
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Sadly, Invisible Blade is a Master Trick and thus not actually allowed to Rogues by any official rules I know of. Unless Eldritch Scoundrel explicitly changes that, it's not permitted under RAW.
Now, Greater Invisibility is just available to an Eldritch Scoundrel as a spell, and from level 10 to boot, but the Trick isn't available to reduce the cost. Still a solid tactic, though.
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Sadly, Invisible Blade is a Master Trick and thus not actually allowed to Rogues by any official rules I know of. Unless Eldritch Scoundrel explicitly changes that, it's not permitted under RAW.
Now, Greater Invisibility is just available to an Eldritch Scoundrel as a spell, and from level 10 to boot, but the Trick isn't available to reduce the cost. Still a solid tactic, though.
At level 12 you may select and advanced Rogue Talent and one of those is named Master's Trick.
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At level 12 you may select and advanced Rogue Talent and one of those is named Master's Trick.Sadly, Invisible Blade is a Master Trick and thus not actually allowed to Rogues by any official rules I know of. Unless Eldritch Scoundrel explicitly changes that, it's not permitted under RAW.
Now, Greater Invisibility is just available to an Eldritch Scoundrel as a spell, and from level 10 to boot, but the Trick isn't available to reduce the cost. Still a solid tactic, though.
Huh. When'd that happen? They errata'd that into Ultimate Combat when I wasn't looking. Good for them.
Still, its worth noting that Master Tricks is not on the official list of options for the Unchained Rogue. Which still leave it as a problem for RAW with using an Unchained Rogue.
At level 12 you may select and advanced Rogue Talent and one of those is named Master's Trick.Sadly, Invisible Blade is a Master Trick and thus not actually allowed to Rogues by any official rules I know of. Unless Eldritch Scoundrel explicitly changes that, it's not permitted under RAW.
Now, Greater Invisibility is just available to an Eldritch Scoundrel as a spell, and from level 10 to boot, but the Trick isn't available to reduce the cost. Still a solid tactic, though.
Huh. When'd that happen? They errata'd that into Ultimate Combat when I wasn't looking. Good for them.
Still, its worth noting that Master Tricks is not on the official list of options for the Unchained Rogue. Which still leave it as a problem for RAW with using an Unchained Rogue.
True I was looking on the normal list :(
I don't see all that many parallels between Sanctified Slayer and Eldritch Scoundrel tbh. Thus I wouldn't say this is better than that as they do vastly different things.
While you can prolly build a DEX based Sanctified Slayer and not suck the chasis really lends itself towards a STR based build and thus it's more of a pure Gish. Sure it has a nice skills (but not more as INT is a low priority for inquisitors while it's primary here) and earliest it can get trapfinding is level 8 and some useful spells (and a very short list of spells known) but really it's more of a ranger than a rogue.
To me there's much more overlap with the Archaeologist Bard (and the bard in general) than the Inquisitor here.
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Additionally, while the Inquisitor list is quite nice, you're a spontaneous caster off a very focused list as a Sanctified Slayer.
An Eldritch Scoundrel is a prepared caster off the best list in the game. Sure, not the very best spells off it...but it remains the best list in the game bar none. Certainly for breadth of abilities...and as a prepared caster you can take very real advantage of that.
Both Greater Invisibility and Dimension Door will cost a 4th level spell slot.
The dimensional savant chain let's you full attack like pounce, while also treating you as flanking with yourself. Greater Invisibility has its uses as well, but if you can only use one (offensively), the obvious choice should always be Dimension Door.
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Why is that obvious? Greater invisibility allows for sneak attack on anything that relies on sight for the (hopefully) entire fight. Dimensional savant is a 4 feat investment to be able to pounce/sneak attack for one round. So, yeah, it's nice at level 15 when you can use it, but even then, I wouldn't say it's strictly better than greater invisibility.
Why is that obvious? Greater invisibility allows for sneak attack on anything that relies on sight for the (hopefully) entire fight. Dimensional savant is a 4 feat investment to be able to pounce/sneak attack for one round. So, yeah, it's nice at level 15 when you can use it, but even then, I wouldn't say it's strictly better than greater invisibility.
Admittedly, the combo is better on magi who have spell recall, but often the offensive capabilities of the rogue is criticized for two things:
1 the reliance on sneak attack2 the reliance on the full attack action
(previously MAD as well, that however was amended with the induction of the Unchained Rogue)
Greater Invisibility enables sneak attack, but at the same cost (a 4th level spell) Dimension Door enables both sneak attack and the full round attack.
I suppose the argument can be made to say that the feat chain is too imposing on character builds, I however disagree with that notion considering the results of it.
The Weapon Master's Handbook also introduced Teleportation Mastery which works with all rogues martial characters to access this combo, easily using a bag of holding or Handy Haversack as the item prerequisite.
EDIT: I suppose the argument could also be made for Summon Monster with regards to flanking, but it doesn't solve the efficiency issue that plagues martial classes.
EDIT: I suppose the argument could also be made for Summon Monster with regards to flanking, but it doesn't solve the efficiency issue that plagues martial classes.
A quickened Summon Monster I allows for a full attack with flanking.
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The Weapon Master's Handbook also introduced Teleportation Mastery which works with allroguesmartial characters to access this combo, easily using a bag of holding or Handy Haversack as the item prerequisite.
Teleportation mastery requires a +6 base fort save. A single class rogue qualifies at 18th level.
Teleportation mastery requires a +6 base fort save. A single class rogue qualifies at 18th level.
The Weapon Master's Handbook also introduced Teleportation Mastery which works with allroguesmartial characters to access this combo, easily using a bag of holding or Handy Haversack as the item prerequisite.
DOH!
I guess that trick only works for slayers then.
EDIT: I suppose the argument could also be made for Summon Monster with regards to flanking, but it doesn't solve the efficiency issue that plagues martial classes.A quickened Summon Monster I allows for a full attack with flanking.
The issue is movement also. Not to mention that quickened SM1 is a 5th level slot, and also can't be done until 15th level without wasting other resources like a charge on a quicken rod.
Dimensional Savant fixes the problem of movement, flanking, and getting a full attack. This makes it a very attractive option to take down big enemies. It's a one-trick-pony build, but that one trick is pretty damn good.
Additionally, considering the spell list gained, you could arguably make one trick builds and still not lose out on utility or narrative power.
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Just suddenly had thoughts of a Samsaran ES using mystic past life to poach certain spells (bladed dash, good hope, dance of a hundred cuts, etc.) off of the bard list.
Huh. That could be neat, and probably make up for Samsarans not being particularly favorable towards martial classes...
Greater invisibility and fiery shuriken would be pretty impressive.
Here's an outline for a Reach Wielding Elf Build.
I've been thinking about A build that doesn't dump Charisma and goes for Enforcer+Intimidate Skill Unlock. There's a trait that allows you to deal non-lethal damage with a chosen weapon.
Elf Eldritch Scoundrel
STR 7 DEX 18 CON 12 INT 18 (Level Increases here) WIS 13 CHA 7
FCB: goes into HPs
Traits: Heirloom Weapon, Death Touched (+2 to saves versus mind affecting)
Race Traits:
Spell Focus [Conjuration]
Keen Senses
Feats/Abilities:
1 Finesse Training/Trapfinding
1 Feat: Combat Reflexes
2 Evasion
3 Trap Spotter
3 Feat: Accomplished Sneak Attacker
4 Rogue Talent: Vanishing Trick
4 Debilitating injury
5 Feat: Varisian Tatoo [Conjuration]
5 Skill Unlock: Acrobatics
7 Feat: Twist Away
8 Rogue Talent: Pressure Points
9 Feat: Iron Will
10 Skill Unlock: ???
11 Feat: Greater Spell Focus [Conjuration]
11 Finesse Training 2:???
Spells I like
1 Snowball, Shield, Color Spray (Blinded), reduce person, feather Fall, Liberating command, Long Arm, Monkey fish (Scrolls), Blend, Disguise Self, Comprehend Languages (Scroll), Heightend Awareness, Mage Armor, Grease, Infernal Healing (Wand), Protection from Evil, Endure Elements, Stone Shield, Charm Person
2 Endure Communal, Protection Communal, Resist Energy, Glitterdust, Fiery Shuriken, Web, see invisibility, ?bestow insight?, Hideous Laughter, Blur, Invisibility, Defending Bone (Pharsma), False Life, Alter Self, Animal Aspect, Levitate, Darkvision
3 Magic Circle against Evil, Contingent Action, Fly, Heroism, ?Hold Person?, Stinking Cloud, ? Beast Shape I ?, Haste, Greater Magic Weapon, Vesatile Weapon
4 Black Tentacles, Dimension Door, Fleshworm Infestation (?), Gloomblind Bolts
5 ???
I think in the current meta, the most reliable way to get flanking is with an animal companion + pack flanking + horsemaster's saddle or be a ratfolk with scurrying swarmer + mauler familiar or animal companion.
I think as an eldritch scoundrel, I probably would do it as another ratfolk. You can get a familiar with a trait and a feat.
The nice thing about the build above is that it's not super dependent on flanking as it has a number of ways to deny dex via spells and abilities.
For starters you have Vanishing trick which starting at mid-levels I'd plan to use fairly regularly and recharge between fights with Pearls of Power.
Grease also can deny opponents their Dex to AC although I think only on AoO but that's what the reach weapon is there for. Glitterdust (with a high DC) blinds opponents and I'm really looking forward to dropping Glitterdust on a horde of mooks in round one and then handing out some whoop ass via fiery shuriken in the following turn. Gloomblind Bolts are quite a way to start combat if you win initiative as it leaves fools blinded as well. Also all of these spells are conjurations which get boosted by Spell Focus etc.
What is the point in taking varisian tattoo? Bonus to CL works wonders for evocation, not so much for conjuration. I think you would be better off taking greater spell focus at 5. To replace the feat later on you could take lunge or weapon focus.
All the spells listed above are save based Conjuration spells (as is snow ball) which pack wicked debuffs and work as nice openers.
Why Evocation? Seems super boring.On another note in going through spells I stumbled over a number of nice defensive option. I'm particularly fond of Defending Bone which incidently requires you to worship Pharsma. Well we all know all dagger wielders love pharsma so maybe you can also build a nice TWF ES who forgoes a high INt in favor of more DEX and CON and thugs it out with the big boys on the front line after all.
Maybe something like this?
STR 8 DEX 20 CON 14 INT 12 WIS 12 CHA 7
1 TWF Iron Will
3 Deific Obedience
4 Double Slice
5 Accomplished SA
7 Piranha Strike
8 Rogue Talent
9 ITWF
11 ???