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It is the 21st century, folks. Everyone has an iPad or reasonable facsimile, and the means to use one. HeroLab is licensed and approved by Paizo. No GM should be disallowing any player for that reason. You're a GM, not God. Let's play and have fun.
That is a big fat , Ghostrider. Do not presume that the affluence of the few reflects the community as a whole.
In turn, those of us who are still dead-tree and analog-oriented should presume to not hold one's reliance on digital media against those who have such.
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The issue is not digital vs. paper or HeroLab vs. PCGen, etc. Its disruptive vs. non-disruptive. A GM should not be banning a player resource/tool just because they personally don't like it. That is really no different than saying no gunslingers at my table, or no players with red hair, or no one named Bob, etc. Unless you have a history with a specific player that indicates they are incapable of not being disruptive using their tools, you should not be telling them they cannot use them.
That being said, I support a GMs right to say no to whatever they want at their table, but be prepared for the organizer to ban you from their events and perhaps make that situation known to other organizers. A GM who is not accommodating to the players at their table is likely not someone most organizers want to deal with. The risk for conflict is too high. I would rather just say no thank you and find someone else.
Remember...
Explore! Report! Cooperate!
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To be honest, I really don't know that a GM has the kind of control over a player to tell them they cannot use a digital device, assuming of course that it is not being disruptive. Disruptive behavior by its very nature has to be demonstrated, otherwise it is profiling or stereotyping. Just because SOME players are disruptive using HeroLab, does not mean I am disruptive using it. I have no problem putting my character sheets on the table for reference by the GM should they need it, but I don't think I would comply with a GM telling me I cannot use my tablet/HeroLab just because they personally don't like it. Unless the GM can demonstrate that I am actually being disruptive at the table, IMO they would be the disruptive one if they insisted I not use any of my gaming resources just because they had a personal prejudice against it.
The same could be said for my octagonal dice tray. I have a tendency to spread out at the table. I use the tray as a holding place for all my stuff so I don't spread out. Some say the dice tray takes up too much space. Actually, for me, when I use it, I take up less space.
And that's why people are so hot about this. The GM SHOULDN'T be able to profile and stereo-type based on their whims, but that's exactly what some are saying they want or currently do.
Anyone should be able to comfortably walk up to any table at a con with their HeroLab/tablet (with supporting Paizo PDFs), or pen and paper, and sit down to play without someone jumping up and saying, "DISRUPTOR! I shall now audit you! If I find ANYTHING wrong with your HeroLab-created sheet you are out!"
People have tablets, pen and paper, dice towers, dice octagons, miniatures, lego miniatures, food, drinks, smells, funny hair, costumes, hunger-induced attitudes, etc, etc. It's a game, enjoy it, and let others enjoy it too. I have seen people at EVERY TABLE I'VE PLAYED fumble with their papers, or with their tablets to find something. I see people have trouble with adding their bonuses, with people chiming in, "don't forget bless", "don't forget you're blinded", etc ... I don't consider those disruptions. I don't expect to play with just the Pathfinder ELITE that know the rules inside-out... I welcome the people learning the game, learning their character sheets, and learning their digital character sheets. I am excited to teach what I know to others, to be corrected when I'm wrong, and to continue learning the intricacies of Pathfinder and of the awesome HeroLab ... which reminds me, I learned from this thread today that HeroLab gives a report of rule-book sources. I'm going to go check out this cool new feature that I just learned about!
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This is right on the Hero Lab site (I'm looking for how to find the sourcebook report.)
"Know Your Character – Make sure you understand how and why Hero Lab is calculating all your character’s ability stats, modifiers, etc. Go through each of your In Play options and check all your various abilities, planned spell buffs, expected party buffs (bard, cavalier, etc.), to make sure they work as you expect them to. If they don’t, try to figure out whether the error is yours or or a bug. (If it is a bug, please submit it through through the official bug reporting form!)"
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"Know Your Character – Make sure you understand how and why Hero Lab is calculating all your character’s ability stats, modifiers, etc. Go through each of your In Play options and check all your various abilities, planned spell buffs, expected party buffs (bard, cavalier, etc.), to make sure they work as you expect them to. If they don’t, try to figure out whether the error is yours or or a bug. (If it is a bug, please submit it through through the official bug reporting form!)"
When I've printed out my characters lately, the sourcebooks used is a very nice neat section at the very end of the printout.
Warning, though, it gives EVERY source a given item could be from, so if you're not careful, you can end up taking books you don't need along with if you're a hard-copy sort like myself.
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It is the 21st century, folks. Everyone has an iPad or reasonable facsimile, and the means to use one. HeroLab is licensed and approved by Paizo. No GM should be disallowing any player for that reason. You're a GM, not God. Let's play and have fun.
To me this idea represents pretty much all of the problems that can crop up with people using Hero Lab. The assumption that every gamer is wired. Putting too much faith in the accuracy of Hero Lab. Plus it brushes on the Player vs GM idea that is often disruptive.
I don't have a tablet.
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I have stayed out of this thus far, but I guess I just missed my will save.
So, a standard tablet, in my eyes is not typically disruptive. A 17" laptop (complete with power cord) certainly is in most cases. Why do I say that? Real estate on the table. Also, with a laptop the screen will act as a physical barrier. So, generally I don't mind players using tablets, but prefer not to see them using a laptop.
However, I have yet to kick a player off of my table for using a large laptop. I have suggested that it would be better if they didn't, and having the requirement for a paper character sheet takes the away the excuse that they don't have a physical copy.
I know from my own experience that the electronic device in front of me can be distracting to me.... So I can relate to others who are distracted.
In a previous Champions home game, I even did go to the extent of banning laptops from the table (this was before the days of the iPad and it's contemporaries), because of people playing World of Warcraft and the like while at the table.
That's my 2 cents on this
Oh, and I have played with Nefreet, while half the table (at least) had iPads (including muself), and he never said a word. Granted, he was playing, not running, but still. I found him to be a very pleasant person!
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because of people playing World of Warcraft and the like while at the table
This is a growing problem and would be considered at least disruptive, but more likely breaking the "don't be a jerk" rule. I've stopped tolerating it at all. Checking a quick text message is one thing. Intentionally logging into a video game during a PFS event is a good way to get yourself booted from the table.
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It is the 21st century, folks. Everyone has an iPad or reasonable facsimile, and the means to use one. HeroLab is licensed and approved by Paizo. No GM should be disallowing any player for that reason. You're a GM, not God. Let's play and have fun.To me this idea represents pretty much all of the problems that can crop up with people using Hero Lab. The assumption that every gamer is wired. Putting too much faith in the accuracy of Hero Lab. Plus it brushes on the Player vs GM idea that is often disruptive.
I trust the accuracy of Herolab much much more than I do the accuracy of a player.
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If I have a player who always rolls high (15+ on the die nearly every time) or who's rolling crits excessively often then I'll take a page out of my regional coordinator's book. First, I'll ask them to roll where everyone can see them. If they are using hard to see dice and still rolling high excessively often every session, I'd get a die easy to read from across the table and ask them to use that for a session or two. And if they STILL are rolling excessively high regardless of what die they are using and people can in fact verify the rolls...
The next step for me would be "Hey, can roll that die a few times for the monsters?" ;)
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I trust hero labs precision, not its accuracy
If you don't know the difference, ask a stormtrooper.
I know the difference, and I trust herolab on both, more than I do an average player.
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Can I just post something here to help with the derailment and have some kind of vague unjustified feeling that I, too have something to say on this matter and thus belong in the vocal minority that achieves fame and fortune by reacting to superfluous threads on issues that are best solved face to face?
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I trust the precision AND the accuracy of HeroLab more than most. But use Paizo material as the gospel of what is correct.
Its not quoting rules materials where I question it, its the output.
I've seen a velociraptor animal companion with a +28 acrobatics (because the circumstance bonus for high speed got added on without anything saying it was just for jumping)
Weird penalties and errors tend to show up and take a long time to track down. One time coin weight was turned on, causing encumbrance which was dropping someone's attacks, another time haste got left on. While I'm sure that players make more mistakes, those mistakes tend to be a +1 modifier here and there. Hero lab makes mistakes less often but when inexperienced users use it for more than dotting I's and crossing T's things get weird and people do tend to rely on the machine as THE right answer.
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I trust the precision AND the accuracy of HeroLab more than most. But use Paizo material as the gospel of what is correct.
Its not quoting rules materials where I question it, its the output.
I've seen a velociraptor animal companion with a +28 acrobatics (because the circumstance bonus for high speed got added on without anything saying it was just for jumping)
Weird penalties and errors tend to show up and take a long time to track down. One time coin weight was turned on, causing encumbrance which was dropping someone's attacks, another time haste got left on. While I'm sure that players make more mistakes, those mistakes tend to be a +1 modifier here and there. Hero lab makes mistakes less often but when inexperienced users use it for more than dotting I's and crossing T's things get weird and people do tend to rely on the machine as THE right answer.
HeroLab will tell you where all the bonuses come from.
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not sure if that would work for me...
I normally use a "filled in" PC sheet. and for the skills that PC has MW tools for I put the note "M" or "K" for "Masterwork tool or Kit" next to my bonus. something like +15M. That way I know to mention it when the Judge asked for a skill check.
My wife likes to print multiple sheets with different checkboxes marked. She then labels them. Usually it's for different attack routines, so she'll have 'Full Attack', 'Full Attack w/Deadly Aim', 'Full Attack w/Rapid Shot', 'Full Attack w/Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim', and so on.
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My wife likes to print multiple sheets with different checkboxes marked. She then labels them. Usually it's for different attack routines, so she'll have 'Full Attack', 'Full Attack w/Deadly Aim', 'Full Attack w/Rapid Shot', 'Full Attack w/Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim', and so on.not sure if that would work for me...
I normally use a "filled in" PC sheet. and for the skills that PC has MW tools for I put the note "M" or "K" for "Masterwork tool or Kit" next to my bonus. something like +15M. That way I know to mention it when the Judge asked for a skill check.
not using Hero Lab I'm not sure how this works, or would work for what I do.
Currently, for things like attack routines, I would just have a small note (perhaps a table) listing off the different combos. I do this for my sister who often runs marital types. (her ranger for example would have- One Shot, Full Attack, those combined with Rapid Shot and/or Deadly Aim, etc.) But even then she might have the note +12PBS in her "To hit" box. This tells her that within 30' she had another +1 (Point Blank Shot).
But my question was concerning if there is some way to tell if a skill has a MW tool available to be included - without printing two different sheets. Something like an "*" after the bonus...
Oddly, Hero Lab will indeed list many circumstantial bonuses as just that. Things like an Elf's bonus to saves against enchantment or an Inquisitor's bonus to knowledge checks to identify creatures appears as a note under the appropriate save or skill. In such cases, it does not calculate that bonus into save or skill. But for some reason it doesn't treat masterwork tools this way. It is something you could always request they add. They are pretty good about listening to customers.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis
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Since we have had a few different "not at my table" discussions on the boards, I'm hoping that is what Tonya intends to address on Friday rather than the much more specific HL question in this topic.
I have been using HeroLabs for a while now and like it. I have seen continual improvement and haven't seen bugs creep back in once killed. I have seen new features added that I really like. That said, like any tool, it can get in the way and cause problems for a novice user.
I have developed some methods to help me use it efficiently. Things like:
- setting up buffs I commonly use ahead of time,
- asking at the table what buffs people are likely to do so I can set those up,
- double-checking the status line (new, I think it is iPad only) to make sure I don't have any old buffs still active
- planning ahead so I can do all the typing during other people's turns
Sometimes, I just do the adjustments manually and go on. This is usually when I can't find the correct place to search for an adjustment.
When using wands, I mark it off on the ITS and consider that the definitive answer on what is used. I don't track wand charges or ammo in two places, that just leads to questions as to which is correct.
I have also found bugs and reported them. They frequently were fixed in the very next update.
All that said, when someone asks me about HeroLab my first comment is cost. The tablets aren't cheap, and the cost of the data files adds up quick! They have some new licensing options that can help, but I suspect it is still fairly costly.
It is a good tool, provided you know how and when to use it.
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we have had a few different "not at my table" discussions on the boards
Two categories, from my POV.
One regards legal Pathfinder character options that some GMs simply dislike, for whatever reason. These things include classes, archetypes, spells, feats, items, etc.
The other regards everything outside the scope of Pathfinder, including third party products such as HeroLab, digital dice rollers, etc.
As volunteers for Paizo, it would make sense that the first category is out of the question. Anything deemed legal by the Campaign should be legal regardless of what the volunteers think.
As volunteers, it would make sense that the second category should be up to the individuals volunteering to accept. If I volunteer to clean up garbage from the side of a street, I shouldn't be expected to help the nearby construction crew break concrete.
That's outside what I volunteered for.
So, since Paizo is siding with HeroLab in this discussion, it will be interesting to see what else they add to the mix.
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we have had a few different "not at my table" discussions on the boardsTwo categories, from my POV.
One regards legal Pathfinder character options that some GMs simply dislike, for whatever reason. These things include classes, archetypes, spells, feats, items, etc.
The other regards everything outside the scope of Pathfinder, including third party products such as HeroLab, digital dice rollers, etc.
As volunteers for Paizo, it would make sense that the first category is out of the question. Anything deemed legal by the Campaign should be legal regardless of what the volunteers think.
As volunteers, it would make sense that the second category should be up to the individuals volunteering to accept. If I volunteer to clean up garbage from the side of a street, I shouldn't be expected to help the nearby construction crew break concrete.
That's outside what I volunteered for.
So, since Paizo is siding with HeroLab in this discussion, it will be interesting to see what else they add to the mix.
There is also an issue of inclusiveness here. A large number of people own Hero Lab and/or other electronic aids for PFS. Saying "No" to a large portion of the customer base is not conducive to promoting PFS.
It is the 21st century, folks. Everyone has an iPad or reasonable facsimile, and the means to use one. HeroLab is licensed and approved by Paizo. No GM should be disallowing any player for that reason. You're a GM, not God. Let's play and have fun.To me this idea represents pretty much all of the problems that can crop up with people using Hero Lab. The assumption that every gamer is wired. Putting too much faith in the accuracy of Hero Lab. Plus it brushes on the Player vs GM idea that is often disruptive.
While I do see that this assumes players are wired, I didn't read it as assuming faith in HeroLab's accuracy. As for the Player vs. GM idea, a GM that automatically assumes that technology is inherently disruptive is equally so.
because of people playing World of Warcraft and the like while at the tableThis is a growing problem and would be considered at least disruptive, but more likely breaking the "don't be a jerk" rule. I've stopped tolerating it at all. Checking a quick text message is one thing. Intentionally logging into a video game during a PFS event is a good way to get yourself booted from the table.
I don't have a problem with games like solitaire, so long as the player is aware of the game and never lets that interfere. but anything like WoW that requires real-time attention is far too much to allow.
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If you're at a PFS table, you should be *playing Pathfinder*.
Not trying to beat the 'top score' on 'Candy Crush'.
I'd consider that 'being a jerk' if I was a GM, as it disrupts the table and it's insulting not only one's fellow players but also me as a GM, who is volunteering time to run the scenario.
we have had a few different "not at my table" discussions on the boardsTwo categories, from my POV.
One regards legal Pathfinder character options that some GMs simply dislike, for whatever reason. These things include classes, archetypes, spells, feats, items, etc.
The other regards everything outside the scope of Pathfinder, including third party products such as HeroLab, digital dice rollers, etc.
As volunteers for Paizo, it would make sense that the first category is out of the question. Anything deemed legal by the Campaign should be legal regardless of what the volunteers think.
As volunteers, it would make sense that the second category should be up to the individuals volunteering to accept. If I volunteer to clean up garbage from the side of a street, I shouldn't be expected to help the nearby construction crew break concrete.
That's outside what I volunteered for.
So, since Paizo is siding with HeroLab in this discussion, it will be interesting to see what else they add to the mix.
I guarantee that the rule will not be that you have to use HeroLab.
I guarantee that the rule will still allow GM's to deal with disruptive players.Outside of that if allowing a non-disruptive player to use HeroLab is like breaking up concrete, then that is on you. I support and suggest that you tell player that you expect them to know the rules and be able to support it and don't let any other program be a distraction. That's reasonable. If there's no space for their hardware, then it's reasonable to say no.
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If you're at a PFS table, you should be *playing Pathfinder*.Not trying to beat the 'top score' on 'Candy Crush'.
I'd consider that 'being a jerk' if I was a GM, as it disrupts the table and it's insulting not only one's fellow players but also me as a GM, who is volunteering time to run the scenario.
This I can agree with. I find it totally disrespectful.
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we have had a few different "not at my table" discussions on the boardsTwo categories, from my POV.
One regards legal Pathfinder character options that some GMs simply dislike, for whatever reason. These things include classes, archetypes, spells, feats, items, etc.
The other regards everything outside the scope of Pathfinder, including third party products such as HeroLab, digital dice rollers, etc.
As volunteers for Paizo, it would make sense that the first category is out of the question. Anything deemed legal by the Campaign should be legal regardless of what the volunteers think.
As volunteers, it would make sense that the second category should be up to the individuals volunteering to accept. If I volunteer to clean up garbage from the side of a street, I shouldn't be expected to help the nearby construction crew break concrete.
That's outside what I volunteered for.
So, since Paizo is siding with HeroLab in this discussion, it will be interesting to see what else they add to the mix.
Really that's not "helping the construction crew, it's more, "I don't like HOW that trash is thrown away"
The problem with your second point is, when I come to a convention I have no choice on my GM. So I show up to play as I've always played but instead have a confrontation.
For PaizoCon I sign up for tables ahead of time to guarantee my son and I can sit at the same table and that we are in sessions we want. The GM is not listed in that selection, nor is their list of what they allow/disallow. If I could guarantee hero lab friendly GMs in my selection process I would. Then everyone is happy.
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You coming to Omaha for Pretzcon in late April?
I will be at PaizoCon, GenCon, plus a myriad of conventions in the Midwest this spring. I welcome any opportunity to meet people passionate enough about this game to waste huge swathes of time posting repeatedly in the forums. :-D
Sorry, no. I am focused more on events in my region