Will I be allowed to use a digital character sheet in organized play?


Pathfinder Society

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Like title says. Will I be allowed to? I find it's a lot easier to track everything on a tablet.

Or, do I -have- to have a physical character sheet to be allowed in organized play?

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

You can certainly use a digital sheet. But you must have a printed sheet if the GM asks to see your character sheet and neither of you is comfortable with the GM handling your electronic item.


Thank you Andrew!

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Agent, Florida—Melbourne aka trollbill

To be even more clear. PFS GMs have the right to refuse digital character sheets and can require physical ones. This is, however, a choice on the part of the GM and few exercise this right. But I recommend you prepare for this possibility, especially if you are planning on playing with groups/GMs you are not familiar with.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Seattle aka The Great Rinaldo!

This is especially important at conventions, where you are almost guaranteed to have a GM you don't know, and the number of character sheets each GM has to be able to quickly look over is significantly higher. Speaking as a Convention GM, I appreciate stock-standard character sheets so I can quickly find what I am looking for.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

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As a GM I don't mind people using digital character sheets, but I insist you must have a paper copy with you, in case you lose power during the game.

Sovereign Court 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

+1 to sticking to standard character sheets (for your paper backup). It's legal to use other stuff too, but it's so much easier for the GM if everyone uses the same format. Saves a lot of time that could also be spent on having fun :)

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Also recognize the difference between having a digital character sheet (such as a PDF on a reader) and using a character-tracking program (such as HeroLab).

Personally, I'm fine with digital character sheets, so long as you have a physical backup available. I'm not fine with programs at the table (for various reasons), and I have turned away players because of them before.


Nefreet wrote:

Also recognize the difference between having a digital character sheet (such as a PDF on a reader) and using a character-tracking program (such as HeroLab).

Personally, I'm fine with digital character sheets, so long as you have a physical backup available. I'm not fine with programs at the table (for various reasons), and I have turned away players because of them before.

Are you even allowed to do that?

I don't play in PFS so I am not affected. I am just asking because I keep seeing varying statements in when a GM is allowed to turn someone away. It is almost like each area has its own house rules for that.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Alaska—Anchorage aka Dragnmoon

You would hate me then Nefreet, Because I live by HeroLabs on my iPad, though I bring physical sheets, because I have to, I play with my iPad.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Alaska—Anchorage aka Dragnmoon

wraithstrike wrote:

Are you even allowed to do that?

I don't play in PFS so I am not affected. I am just asking because I keep seeing varying statements in when a GM is allowed to turn someone away. It is almost like each area has its own house rules for that.

Sure he can if is Organizer allows him to do it. But the GM/Organizer would not get happy feelies out of it.

But if he did it say at GenCon/PaizoCon and the player complained, he might have problems depending on who the player complained to.


wraithstrike wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

Also recognize the difference between having a digital character sheet (such as a PDF on a reader) and using a character-tracking program (such as HeroLab).

Personally, I'm fine with digital character sheets, so long as you have a physical backup available. I'm not fine with programs at the table (for various reasons), and I have turned away players because of them before.

Are you even allowed to do that?

I don't play in PFS so I am not affected. I am just asking because I keep seeing varying statements in when a GM is allowed to turn someone away. It is almost like each area has its own house rules for that.

I believe that the latest edition of the guide lends support to this. More than likely due to the reasons mentioned in the link.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

Wraith, there are various rules.

In your own home, you can turn anyone away (it is your house)

In a public game, you can turn away people who are disruptive. I have seen hero lab (indirectly) be disruptive. (12 year old at table, using hero lab on full sized mac book, continually getting distracted by web videos. Even in combat. Missed several turns, then would want to fast forward his character to catch up. Missed descriptions of several hazards, and had to be continually told not to do things that would get the whole party killed. In a notoriously lethal scenario no less.)

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Alaska—Anchorage aka Dragnmoon

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Here is the a few things about electronic devices

Table Space - If all you have is a Huge Laptop I would recommend not going digital because table space can be a premium and you are taking way too much of it. This is especially true for conventions.

Power - Power outlets can be an issue, know where you are playing prior to bringing that laptop. If your play area has plenty of outlets that you can sit right next to this should not be a problem. If the outlet is all the way across the room and you have to run an extension cord, Don't Do IT!!!!. I can't emphasis this enough, you are causing a trip hazard and a danger to others. And the Organizer will most likely tell you to unplug. In this case leave the laptop home. I would recommend never to bring laptops to conventions because you can't control where you sit. This is less an issue with tablets since they in general have a longer battery life.

Unreliability of the software - Know the rules and know the Software. All software can and will have it's problems. HeroLabs as an example, most of the time it is reliable but on occasion there is a bug with it. If you know the software and the rules in question you can catch it and know how to work around it. In general you won't have problems but when yo do you need to know the rules don't let the program be your only knowledge source. Don't buy new software and expect to use it right away with out expecting issues and pissing people off. Learn the software first and use it in an environment that will allow you to. That way people/GMs who in general don't trust programs *Cough*Nefreet*Cough* really have nothing to complain about.

Always, Always, Always! have a paper backup of your PC just in case everything goes to s!&# with your electronic device. Not only that, Thems be the rulez.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
wraithstrike wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

Also recognize the difference between having a digital character sheet (such as a PDF on a reader) and using a character-tracking program (such as HeroLab).

Personally, I'm fine with digital character sheets, so long as you have a physical backup available. I'm not fine with programs at the table (for various reasons), and I have turned away players because of them before.

Are you even allowed to do that?

Absolutely.

It's simply that, IMO, and for the reasons linked above, I find programs such as HeroLab to be disruptive at the table.

It's a discussion that has been had multiple times in this forum. I did tell a player at GenCon this year I would not seat him if he was using HeroLab. He had a physical sheet, but hadn't updated it for some time. Luckily he showed up early enough to level his character before game.

Silver Crusade 5/5

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Nefreet wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

Also recognize the difference between having a digital character sheet (such as a PDF on a reader) and using a character-tracking program (such as HeroLab).

Personally, I'm fine with digital character sheets, so long as you have a physical backup available. I'm not fine with programs at the table (for various reasons), and I have turned away players because of them before.

Are you even allowed to do that?

Absolutely.

It's simply that, IMO, and for the reasons linked above, I find programs such as HeroLab to be disruptive at the table.

It's a discussion that has been had multiple times in this forum. I did tell a player at GenCon this year I would not seat him if he was using HeroLab. He had a physical sheet, but hadn't updated it for some time. Luckily he showed up early enough to level his character before game.

I've got to admit, I find it kind of funny that you have stated in another thread that you would have no problem with a new player using an illegal character option for one game before fixing it, but you would turn away a player using Herolab with no qualms.

1/5

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
UndeadMitch wrote:


I've got to admit, I find it kind of funny that you have stated in another thread that you would have no problem with a new player using an illegal character option for one game before fixing it, but you would turn away a player using Herolab with no qualms.

Illegal character option = Requires some research to make sure it's not illegal/fixing it = 'not being a jerk' and getting a thing fixed between slots/table variation/etc.

HeroLab = Disruption of table (via indicated GM's experience) = 'being a jerk by disrupting table'

At least, that'd be my take on it?

Silver Crusade 5/5

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
UndeadMitch wrote:


I've got to admit, I find it kind of funny that you have stated in another thread that you would have no problem with a new player using an illegal character option for one game before fixing it, but you would turn away a player using Herolab with no qualms.

Illegal character option = Requires some research to make sure it's not illegal/fixing it = 'not being a jerk' and getting a thing fixed between slots/table variation/etc.

HeroLab = Disruption of table (via indicated GM's experience) = 'being a jerk by disrupting table'

At least, that'd be my take on it?

I guess I just have an issue when people make broad, sweeping generalizations about people for as silly of a reason as choosing to use a program to help keep track of their character. But, it is his perogative.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 Venture-Captain, Indiana—Northern

How is using a program like Hero Lab at the table disrupting? I mean, I don't use it roll dice, but I do use it to apply conditions, buffs, debuffs, etc., and I always carry my physical character sheet with me.

How is it disruptive?

So long as the player has his or her physical character sheet, and the use of HL is NOT disruptive to the table, and isn't being used to cheat, I don't see where you get or have any authority to prevent its use at the table.

EDIT: The examples you cite are certainly anecdotal, but not empirical. I have GMed several tables with folks who use HL on their iPads or laptops, and those tables didn't have any of the issues you claim to have experienced.

1/5

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Purely anecdotal tales on my part here:

At a local convention, someone attempted to use HeroLab as their source material for a spell that the GM was unfamiliar with, and got the 'truncated version' that the program uses, not the 'full' version that is actually in the book.

Fortunately, we happened to have the hardcopy book handy with the spell in question, and we were able to in relatively short order determine that the player's understanding of the spell was incorrect (a lot got chopped out in the summary) and it didn't even do what the *player* thought it would do.

Despite that, the rules discussion took about 5-10 minutes and it was a very 'awkward' few moments as we figured that out, and at a less focused table it may have completely destroyed any table chemistry, based on my limited playing experience.

Other side of the coin:

There are two people who have sensory disabilities that I had the honor and privilege to GM for at a different local convention, who needed the 'bigger text' sheets to be able to see their characters. Not only were they not disruptive, it reduced the amount of time they needed to find numbers.

My personal 'gut'? Run with it unless it's disruptive, then handle the disruption rather than the item causing it. Distracted players will get distracted, whether it's because the table next to one's has a louder GM or the PA system is announcing that there's two hours left in the slot, etc.

Liberty's Edge 4/5

I agree with Mark on this. I think that approach to Hero Labs just a generalization based on a few experiences. I have seen HL used frequently in my area, as a player and GM, and have never seen is cause a disruption in play.

If a player becomes disruptive during play, then there would have cause to have them stop using it, but a blanket "disallowment" from the start just doesn't seem right.

But yes, they do need a physical character sheet on hand as required as part of PFS. As long as they have that though, I would say let it go.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
trollbill wrote:
To be even more clear. PFS GMs have the right to refuse digital character sheets and can require physical ones. This is, however, a choice on the part of the GM and few exercise this right. But I recommend you prepare for this possibility, especially if you are planning on playing with groups/GMs you are not familiar with.

As far as I'm aware GMS do not have the right to ban a digital character sheet.

Silver Crusade 5/5

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Herolab is used pretty widely in my area, and I too have had mixed experiences with it. I've GM'd for people that used it that ended up being disruptive, but I've also seen people that use it with no issue.

My barbarian / living monolith's primary attack can vary from +15 to +23 before any buffs party members might have, and herolab lets makes it easier to track my own stuff, which makes it easier to tack things like inspire or bless or whatever else on at the end. When I play the character without, I have to write down at least four different blocks of attacks (normal, raging, righteous might, raging righteous might, power attacking, and hasted).

On the other end of the spectrum, my Rondelero Duelist fighter flat-out does not work at all in H-Lab, multiple parts of the archetype don't work at all, when I play that character it is completely off of a character sheet.

It isn't really the program that tends to be disruptive, but players. When I play, I always make sure I have a physical sheet, and make sure my players do when I GM. Whether they use them is up to them.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

You do NOT! Have the right to turn someone away using Hero Labs.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

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Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Andrew Christian wrote:
You do NOT! Have the right to turn someone away using Hero Labs.

I do, I have, and I will continue to do so.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

You have the right to turn away some using *only* hero lab. And you have the right to ask them to turn off their device or leave *if* they prove to be disruptive. You also have every right to remind them that hero lab is not a rules source and will not be accepted as such in any rules dispute.

Beyond that you have the right to ask me to move them to another table if there is one.

That said, we have several people locally who use Hero Lab or equivalent to augment their paper character sheet, and I use my computer to track certain character features, and so I can confidently assert that while Nefreet has strong opinions about these tools, he does not cross over into being a jerk about them.

Silver Crusade 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

Andrew Christian wrote:
You can certainly use a digital sheet. But you must have a printed sheet if the GM asks to see your character sheet and neither of you is comfortable with the GM handling your electronic item.

Yeah Andrew is correct, that is the current law of the land, IIRC this ruling was made to not force a GM to interact with an expensive piece of electronics to audit a character (and you need to bring your physical chronicle sheets in any case).

Whatever else you do at the table, like using your electronic devices to look up things (like spells/items in your pdfs) is another thing altogether. I think it is a bit unreasonable to prevent people from using their electronic devices at the table, but it's not like I haven't experienced it either. Of course you never know what their are doing.

That's pretty much what the second part of this devolved to, if you a player, and you feel that your personal enjoyment of the game / access to the material was unreasonably limited, that is a perfectly valid point to mention to the organizer.

The very same is true, if you as a GM have to kick a player from your table for disruptive behavior.

Scarab Sages 4/5

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For what it's worth, here's Mike Brock's post on the matter of physical character sheets.

Michael Brock wrote:
While we require that players have physical chronicle and character sheets, we want it to be as easy as possible for anyone to come to a PFS game and play Pathfinder! So if someone comes to your table without a printed character sheet, we strongly encourage you to find a way to include them in the game and then advise them of the rules for future games. We want everyone to feel welcome in our PFS community.

I did not quote the part where he locked that thread. It got similarly heated as this one is starting to.

3/5

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Well, this thread has about a yearly refresh rate.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

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99% likely that you do not. Most geeks are fine with tablets these days.

I even INSIST mine be clay and cuniform

Silver Crusade 5/5

Here's hoping we can get this backward thinking ruling about digital devices overturned now that Mike is gone. All my character sheets are electronic and I don't believe that I have ever printed one over my 4+ year PFS career, nor do I have any intention to do so. If a GM is strict enough to throw me out of the table for that, it's probably a good sign of that I wouldn't have enjoyed a session with them anyway.

Sovereign Court 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

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I don't think it's backwards. It exists for several reasons;

1) To require you to have a backup if power loss happens. Especially during a Con where you might be playing games back to back, this is good.
2) So that the GM is not required to handle your expensive device. This can be important when determining responsibility for accidental damage etc.
3) So that the GM isn't obliged to learn how to use Herolab, PCGen or whatever other program people may be using (there are a couple more). The GM trying to figure that out wastes valuable time.

All of these point to "you must ALSO have a paper sheet", and using the standard sheet would be ideal. I think that's a very sensible rule.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 Venture-Captain, Indiana—Northern

Nefreet wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
You do NOT! Have the right to turn someone away using Hero Labs.
I do, I have, and I will continue to do so.

Please cite where you get the authority to do so.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Agent, United Kingdom—England—Chester aka Paz

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Quoting myself from another thread, as my thoughts haven't changed on why paper character sheets make my life easier as a GM:

Quote:

I'm no luddite by any means, but electronic character sheets do cause a couple of minor headaches when I'm GMing and want to check something about one of the PCs. This is almost always for something game-related (to check a save/skill bonus without the player knowing exactly what I'm doing, or to see if a monster can smell the food in their pack, etc.) rather than to do an audit as such.

- I don't like handling other people's expensive electronic equipment, especially if it's on a cluttered table, maybe even with power leads connected, in case I damage it.

- Most paper character sheets are broadly similar and easy to look over, while software can be less intuitive (I've not used the ipad version of Hero Lab for example), and may need the player to 'drive' the program to the right tab/window/list.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Nefreet wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
You do NOT! Have the right to turn someone away using Hero Labs.
I do, I have, and I will continue to do so.

Then don't bother ever volunteering for any Cons I organize.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Let's put this another way.

Hero Lab is a legal option in PFS. Electronics are legal in PFS. You don't have the right to outright ban these options anymore than you have the right to ban slumber witches or gunslingers or any other option you hate.

It doesn't matter what your past experience. The player needs to prove disruptive at the table for any action to be taken.

If you are disallowing Hero Labs at your PFS tables for no other reason than you personally don't like it, then you are wrong.


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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I do not have issues with electronic devices at my table as long as there is space for it, and players don't mind me staring over their shoulder as the scroll through their sheet. I do very strongly recommend that a physical copy of the character sheet be brought along, lest a player suddenly find themselves playing Kyra.

I do have separate problems with hero lab, but that is only because I have never seen a character generated in hero lab that was completely correct.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Eastern Eurasia-Africa

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Although I do allow tablets and laptops when I GM, I expect people to roll actual (readable) dice when playing F2F (except maybe massive damage like 30d6 or 10d4).

Grand Lodge 5/5

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Funnily enough, Hero Labs has a handy option to print characters from it. Bringing a paper copy to the table is a MUST. There are two specific players in my area that use the iPad app for character sheets. One I have no issue with it, the other I have directly warned he will not be allow to play at a table run by me while using his e-character sheet. It can be disruptive.


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Mark Stratton wrote:

How is using a program like Hero Lab at the table disrupting? I mean, I don't use it roll dice, but I do use it to apply conditions, buffs, debuffs, etc., and I always carry my physical character sheet with me.

How is it disruptive?

So long as the player has his or her physical character sheet, and the use of HL is NOT disruptive to the table, and isn't being used to cheat, I don't see where you get or have any authority to prevent its use at the table.

EDIT: The examples you cite are certainly anecdotal, but not empirical. I have GMed several tables with folks who use HL on their iPads or laptops, and those tables didn't have any of the issues you claim to have experienced.

I use HL all the time. I will not play much beyond a first level character without it. I'm not going to try and keep a half dozen conditions, buffs, debuffs etc. straight without it. I am also very anal and make very sure that HL does things correctly, I've reported many bugs to them. I always have a physical character sheet along with my chronicle sheets and ITS.

Any GM is welcome to audit me but that will entail handling the same hardware that HL is on, since that is where all my PDF's live. Which has always been the fundamentally strange part of the ruling about GM's not handling player's hardware. But kick me from a game on spec because I use HL? I think I'll be having a chat with the nearest VO.

Dark Archive 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Minnesota—Minneapolis aka Silbeg

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I have no problem with using hero lab, as long as you use it correctly. I am sure that all of us that use it have forgotten to turn a bonus off, or other adjustment.

That being said I always have an up to date physical copy of my character with me, per the rules. While we cannot kick someone off, technically, for using just for using Hero Lab (other situations not withstanding), the player still has to have an up to date printed copy! And should still always be able to explain his or her bonuses.


Jessex wrote:


I use HL all the time. I will not play much beyond a first level character without it. I'm not going to try and keep a half dozen conditions, buffs, debuffs etc. straight without it. I am also very anal and make very sure that HL does things correctly, I've reported many bugs to them. I always have a physical character sheet along with my chronicle sheets and ITS.

I'm the same. I cannot keep track of everything accurately on paper with Pathfinder. I need Herolab on my notebook if I'm going to play a character past a certain point.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Quintin Verassi wrote:
Funnily enough, Hero Labs has a handy option to print characters from it. Bringing a paper copy to the table is a MUST. There are two specific players in my area that use the iPad app for character sheets. One I have no issue with it, the other I have directly warned he will not be allow to play at a table run by me while using his e-character sheet. It can be disruptive.

And that's fine, because you are dealing with the individual disruption. The same way you'd deal with a player disrupting the table in any other way.


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Jessex, Very well, but make sure that you can prove that you own all of your material. My area has decided to really crack down on this and I know that if I were to ever run in another zone I would be concerned about this. Especially for someone using HL.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Jack Brown wrote:

I have no problem with using hero lab, as long as you use it correctly. I am sure that all of us that use it have forgotten to turn a bonus off, or other adjustment.

That being said I always have an up to date physical copy of my character with me, per the rules. While we cannot kick someone off, technically, for using just for using Hero Lab (other situations not withstanding), the player still has to have an up to date printed copy! And should still always be able to explain his or her bonuses.

Agreed. But I've had several instances of people with just paper who forget to not apply no longer available bonuses. That mistake is not inherent to Hero Labs. To be fair though, I've had at least the times as many times where paper people have trouble remembering to add a bonus.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Eryx_UK wrote:
Jessex wrote:


I use HL all the time. I will not play much beyond a first level character without it. I'm not going to try and keep a half dozen conditions, buffs, debuffs etc. straight without it. I am also very anal and make very sure that HL does things correctly, I've reported many bugs to them. I always have a physical character sheet along with my chronicle sheets and ITS.
I'm the same. I cannot keep track of everything accurately on paper with Pathfinder. I need Herolab on my notebook if I'm going to play a character past a certain point.

Not to mention classes like the brawler or medium. Or anyone who buffs a lot.


Andrew Christian wrote:
Eryx_UK wrote:
Jessex wrote:


I use HL all the time. I will not play much beyond a first level character without it. I'm not going to try and keep a half dozen conditions, buffs, debuffs etc. straight without it. I am also very anal and make very sure that HL does things correctly, I've reported many bugs to them. I always have a physical character sheet along with my chronicle sheets and ITS.
I'm the same. I cannot keep track of everything accurately on paper with Pathfinder. I need Herolab on my notebook if I'm going to play a character past a certain point.
Not to mention classes like the brawler or medium. Or anyone who buffs a lot.

Tell me about it. In an infrequent Emerald Spire game I GM one player has a Brawler and if it wasn't for Herolab on the players laptop he wouldn't be able to play it properly.

Grand Lodge

Andrew Christian wrote:

Let's put this another way.

Hero Lab is a legal option in PFS. Electronics are legal in PFS. You don't have the right to outright ban these options anymore than you have the right to ban slumber witches or gunslingers or any other option you hate.

It doesn't matter what your past experience. The player needs to prove disruptive at the table for any action to be taken.

If you are disallowing Hero Labs at your PFS tables for no other reason than you personally don't like it, then you are wrong.

+1

If you want to see my character and want a paper copy instead? Sure thing. If youre going to boot me cause I want to run my character off my ipad instead of off the paper sheet, then Im sure I can find another table to play at.

4/5 Venture-Agent, Minnesota—St. Louis Park aka BretI

Cracking down on source material is now easier with HeroLab. They now have a way to show what sources a character is drawing from.

With the iPad version, you go to the Journal and hit the stack of book icon.

You still need them to show you the books, but at least you know what items are coming from where.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

Most conventions also have printers either at geek HQ or at the hotels office center. You should be able to print from there if it comes up.

I would just print out a copy, fold it into fours and put it in your wallet. It beats trying to scribble something onto two ply during the mission briefing.

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