Will I be allowed to use a digital character sheet in organized play?


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Silver Crusade 3/5

Gary Bush wrote:
Tonya Woldridge wrote:
In the event that a character sheet is no longer accessible due to a loss of battery power, the player may play the pregenerated character and apply the scenario’s rewards to his original character. In all cases where the GM applies one of the above remedies, rewards for all players are based on the lowest subtier played during the scenario.
This last part seem unfair to the other players who, by no fault of their own, could see the rewards reduced because of another player's action, or inaction.

Previously, many GMs said, "Nope. Even though those two players left with their level 5 characters, you three—with your 2nd-level characters—still need to play in the high subtier. No, I can't add a pre-gen."

This new ruling is much better than that.

There needs to be some standard for those cases where the scenario is played at one subtier for half of it and the other subtier for the other half.

Better, I think, would be to average the rewards the character would otherwise get.

Suggested example: Consider three characters, levels 2,3,5 playing in a scenario that was at the upper tier for half of it, and the lower subtier for the other half.

    1-2 506
    Out of Subtier 1,177
    4-5 1,847

The level 2 character would get the average of 506 and 1,177 gp; which is 841 gp.

The level 3 character would still get 1,177 gp.

The level 5 character would get the average of 1,177 gp and 1,847 gp; which is 1,512 gp.

Sovereign Court

Gary Bush wrote:
Tonya Woldridge wrote:
In the event that a character sheet is no longer accessible due to a loss of battery power, the player may play the pregenerated character and apply the scenario’s rewards to his original character. In all cases where the GM applies one of the above remedies, rewards for all players are based on the lowest subtier played during the scenario.
This last part seem unfair to the other players who, by no fault of their own, could see the rewards reduced because of another player's action, or inaction.

But it's also not fair to give higher tier rewards if they did two encounters at high tier, then someone left and they did everything else in low tier.

Maybe if at least X encounters are handled at high tier, players get out of tier?

Silver Crusade 3/5

Andrew L Klein wrote:
But it's also not fair to give higher tier rewards if they did two encounters at high tier, then someone left and they did everything else in low tier.

I agree. Which is why I understand the decision. :)

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/5

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Gary Bush wrote:
This last part seem unfair to the other players who, by no fault of their own, could see the rewards reduced because of another player's action, or inaction.

I assume most GMs' discretion would include listening to the preferences of the players at the table.

1/5

Gary Bush wrote:
Tonya Woldridge wrote:
In the event that a character sheet is no longer accessible due to a loss of battery power, the player may play the pregenerated character and apply the scenario’s rewards to his original character. In all cases where the GM applies one of the above remedies, rewards for all players are based on the lowest subtier played during the scenario.
This last part seem unfair to the other players who, by no fault of their own, could see the rewards reduced because of another player's action, or inaction.

The PFS team has given the GM the latitude to implement an appropriate remedy to fit the circumstances, but also has not prevented the GM from simply continuing the game at whatever tier it started. The ruling does say: "To mitigate the impact on the table, GMs may exercise their discretion ..."

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West

Gary Bush wrote:
Tonya Woldridge wrote:
In all cases where the GM applies one of the above remedies, rewards for all players are based on the lowest subtier played during the scenario.
This last part seem unfair to the other players who, by no fault of their own, could see the rewards reduced because of another player's action, or inaction.

I don't see it as unfair - if you play part of the scenario at low sub-tier, it's unreasonable to expect the high sub-tier rewards. The GM doesn't have to recalculate APL based on the new party make-up, but doing so is now officially sanctioned. If the new party elects to keep playing at the high sub-tier, then they will get the full reward.

Liberty's Edge 3/5 5/5 **** Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha

To all those who have responded, thank you.

I commented that I thought it was unfair because, well, it is.

If a player takes a table and it is at high tier than the player understands there will be greater risk and thus greater reward. Now an other player, who does not have physical copy of a character sheet, can cause the other players reduction in reward because of a reduction of tier.

I honestly don't see any other answer to the problem. If the sub-tier reduces, it reduces. And the rewards should follow the risk.

The idea of giving rewards based on what was complete before the player left adds a lot of extra work to the GM which is not ideal either.

It is not fair. Life is not fair. It is just a game. Something will happen in the future that will "make-up" for it.

And now we have some guidance on how to handle this situation.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Gary Bush wrote:

To all those who have responded, thank you.

I commented that I thought it was unfair because, well, it is.

If a player takes a table and it is at high tier than the player understands there will be greater risk and thus greater reward. Now an other player, who does not have physical copy of a character sheet, can cause the other players reduction in reward because of a reduction of tier.

I honestly don't see any other answer to the problem. If the sub-tier reduces, it reduces. And the rewards should follow the risk.

The idea of giving rewards based on what was complete before the player left adds a lot of extra work to the GM which is not ideal either.

It is not fair. Life is not fair. It is just a game. Something will happen in the future that will "make-up" for it.

And now we have some guidance on how to handle this situation.

Again, this is not just a tech issue either. It's not just for people without physical sheets. I always have a backup printed copy of everything (as well as copies on my phone AND my tablet of PDFs) and have never seen anyone lose power and not be able to continue.

This ruling is also for if people have to leave the table (sick, emergency) which I have never seen happen.

Where this will really help is in Play-by-Post. I frequently see people disappear in PBP games. Now the GM has options in dealing with it, and that is excellent.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West

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RyanH wrote:
This ruling is also for if people have to leave the table (sick, emergency) which I have never seen happen.

I've seen it happen twice in the last 12 months (once at a convention, once at a game store).

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
John Francis wrote:
RyanH wrote:
This ruling is also for if people have to leave the table (sick, emergency) which I have never seen happen.

I've seen it happen twice in the last 12 months (once at a convention, once at a game store).

I imagine GMs and more regular players would see such things more than I. I am mainly convention and PBP. PBP has significant lost players, but very little table disruption!

1/5 5/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I've seen it happen in PbP, VTT, and at conventions.

RL happens.

Giving GMs an option so they aren't 'locked in' like happened in the past is very helpful.

Grand Lodge 4/5

@Gary: Remember that, in many cases, using the right pregen as a replacement can keep the game in the same sub-tier.

Lost a 3-5 level PC? Try a 4th level pregen, odds are fairly good that the party can opt to continue playing at the same sub-tier. Same holds true for a 6-8 level PC, use a 7th level pregen.

Sometimes the APL will change, then you take a few minutes too discuss the situation with the players, and get their buy-in on how to proceed.

"Okay, guys, Bart had to leave to take Kenny to the hospital. We can pause the game for now, and start it back up when Kenny gets better, or we can sub in a couple of pregens for their PCs. The scenario is a X-Y, you have been playing in X tier. A X level pregen for each of their PCs would change the APL to Y. If we do that, and continue in the lower sub-tier, you would only get the rewards appropriate for the lower sub-tier, even though you played part of it at the higher sub-tier. How do you all want to proceed?"

The only difference is if the player was using their tablet for something that drained their battery earlier, and doesn't have some way to charge it or provide backup power, they can have an option to let them stay at the table. (Part of my kit, now, includes a couple of backup batteries, chargers really, that can recharge my phone on the go. Despite being up-and-out, sometimes, for almost 24 hours, I have seldom had to pull out the second charger.)

This also covers an issue another coordinator mentioned ion a different thread, where his site has a couple of people who can only stay for the first two hours or so of a slot, and they do it consistently. Now, he has an option to let the game continue for everyone else, with appropriate replacements and challenge level...

Dark Archive 1/5

Jack Brown wrote:

In a previous Champions home game, I even did go to the extent of banning laptops from the table (this was before the days of the iPad and it's contemporaries), because of people playing World of Warcraft and the like while at the table.

Since my laptop is kinda big with a "17.3 screen (that's bigger then my desktop!) I either put it on my lap, or angled so that the GM can fully see me. I then roll in plain view as well. That said, the above quote? That is definitely a bannable offense IMO. Hell, that's possibly a "leave the table" offense. You're at the table to play a pen and paper RPG. Why the frell are you signing into WoW?

Off topic a bit, but why "pen and paper"? Other then filling in chronicles as the GM... I've never seen anyone in the last 16 years use a pen when game master or a player. It's always pencil, or these days computer.

Dark Archive 1/5

nosig wrote:
Side Question: for someone who uses Hero Lab. How does it handle Masterwork Tools and Circumstance bonuses? Does it just add them in to the skill roll? or give you a note that you have a MW tool and CAN add it in if the circumstances apply? Say a Healers kit? does it add in the +2 or give you some indication that you have a +8/+10 with the Kit?

Masterwork tools get added into the total bonus with a line in the tooltip mentioning where the bonus is coming from. Actually, one sec while I verify.

...

Okay, both get added directly to the skill total. Then when you hover over the skill you get a tooltip that lists where each part of your bonus came from. For example if you're given a +2 circumstance bonus due to having a skilled apprentice helping you (or another skilled cobbler) your Craft: Shoes skill might read as follows.

Craft: shoes +9

The tooltip will then break it down with the following line:

+9 = 1(ranks) +3(class skill) +1 (int mod) +2(tools [artisan's tools, masterwork]) +2(circumstance bonus)

Situational bonuses though aren't automatically added in. Instead there's an astrik next to the total. Then the tooltip will mention the situational bonuses at the top, and it's up to the player to include them.

Note, that you must have the masterwork tools checked in your Gear tab before they get added into the total. Other circumstance bonuses have to be added in manually via the Adjustments tab.

Dark Archive 1/5

nosig wrote:
Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
nosig wrote:

not sure if that would work for me...

I normally use a "filled in" PC sheet. and for the skills that PC has MW tools for I put the note "M" or "K" for "Masterwork tool or Kit" next to my bonus. something like +15M. That way I know to mention it when the Judge asked for a skill check.

My wife likes to print multiple sheets with different checkboxes marked. She then labels them. Usually it's for different attack routines, so she'll have 'Full Attack', 'Full Attack w/Deadly Aim', 'Full Attack w/Rapid Shot', 'Full Attack w/Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim', and so on.

not using Hero Lab I'm not sure how this works, or would work for what I do.

Currently, for things like attack routines, I would just have a small note (perhaps a table) listing off the different combos. I do this for my sister who often runs marital types. (her ranger for example would have- One Shot, Full Attack, those combined with Rapid Shot and/or Deadly Aim, etc.) But even then she might have the note +12PBS in her "To hit" box. This tells her that within 30' she had another +1 (Point Blank Shot).

But my question was concerning if there is some way to tell if a skill has a MW tool available to be included - without printing two different sheets. Something like an "*" after the bonus...

Yeah, there is. At the very bottom of the character config (when you first make a character and are setting up sources) there's output options. Among them is to include all situational modifiers either at the end, or with each item they modify. These aren't pre-added, just listed for you.

You'd set it up as a situational bonus for the skill (with your MW tool toggled off). Kinda clunky, I know. You can also print off a summery (either brief or more complete descriptions depending on options selected) of all your special abilities, spells, and/or gear. Including ability summeries, my character sheet for Kahel is 5 pages and counting. Seven if I print off my journal too.

Which I probably should start doing since that's a summery of gold, xp, and prestige earned. As well as prestige spent. And you can make notes there for purchases.

Grand Lodge 1/5

trollbill wrote:
Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
The PFS setting is fairly good, although I have seen a few options slip through the cracks here and there.
I find it to be mostly accurate, as well. Only problem I am currently having with it is that it keeps telling me my Ranger's Dire Rat animal companion isn't legal for PFS.

That's okay, it keeps telling me my race isn't legal. But I have the convention boon to be an aasimar.

Dark Archive 1/5

Nohwear wrote:

d20pfsrd.org does not charge you to access all of its contents. I have to wonder how many people walked out in a huff and never came back because they thought that buying a Hero Lab expansion was good enough.

But it is "good enough"... for non-PFS campaigns. If you and your buddies are sitting around the table running a homebrew campaign then by all means, Hero Lab is good enough. It may not do a great job explaining complex mechanics in certain classes. But it'll be more then enough to make a character.

It's just in PFS that it's not good enough.

Dark Archive 1/5

RyanH wrote:


I have seen examples of people searching their character sheets at every session I have ever played.

I have been that person. Heck, last Tuesday I was GM for my lodge. And in combat I spent more time looking up info on the enemy stat blocks then adjudicating combat. Why? Because I had no freaking idea where things like the init modifier, movement speed, attack bonuses, and damage were located in the stat blocks. Then I had to double check that I'm looking at the correct tier stat block...

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Kahel Stormbender wrote:
RyanH wrote:


I have seen examples of people searching their character sheets at every session I have ever played.
I have been that person. Heck, last Tuesday I was GM for my lodge. And in combat I spent more time looking up info on the enemy stat blocks then adjudicating combat. Why? Because I had no freaking idea where things like the init modifier, movement speed, attack bonuses, and damage were located in the stat blocks. Then I had to double check that I'm looking at the correct tier stat block...

It doesn't help that they break across pages and columns. I find it helps to copy all stat blocks onto a seperate word document, so that they do not break across pages.

Dark Archive 1/5

Gary Bush wrote:
Tonya Woldridge wrote:
In the event that a character sheet is no longer accessible due to a loss of battery power, the player may play the pregenerated character and apply the scenario’s rewards to his original character. In all cases where the GM applies one of the above remedies, rewards for all players are based on the lowest subtier played during the scenario.
This last part seem unfair to the other players who, by no fault of their own, could see the rewards reduced because of another player's action, or inaction.

The solution then (and this is what I do) use a digital character she, but have a physical backup with you in case of power failure.

Dark Archive 1/5

John Francis wrote:
RyanH wrote:
This ruling is also for if people have to leave the table (sick, emergency) which I have never seen happen.

I've seen it happen twice in the last 12 months (once at a convention, once at a game store).

I've had to leave a gaming session for a variety of unexpected reasons. Not PFS (yet), but it's happened.

Dark Archive 1/5

Jared Thaler wrote:
Kahel Stormbender wrote:
RyanH wrote:


I have seen examples of people searching their character sheets at every session I have ever played.
I have been that person. Heck, last Tuesday I was GM for my lodge. And in combat I spent more time looking up info on the enemy stat blocks then adjudicating combat. Why? Because I had no freaking idea where things like the init modifier, movement speed, attack bonuses, and damage were located in the stat blocks. Then I had to double check that I'm looking at the correct tier stat block...
It doesn't help that they break across pages and columns. I find it helps to copy all stat blocks onto a seperate word document, so that they do not break across pages.

I'm half finished inputting the encounters from that module into hero lab. Unfortunately it ended up being more complicated then I expected cause I had to research just how they'd build some of the npcs to begin with. Then build each enemy from scratch for most encounters (instead of having stock enemies I can pull up and slightly edit). At which point I realized in one case the stat block didn't give me enough information to rebuild the npc in hero lab.

Then it was time to go GM, so I had to run it using the printed blocks. O.o

EDIT: I did have a doc with brief summaries with all important combat stats for each encounter laid out in an easy to find format.

Unfortunately the stat blocks were for low tier, and the group was mid tier. Which made a difference. How big of a difference? Well, more enemies, different tactics given, and the difference between 14 AC and 18 AC.

Sovereign Court 4/5 * Organized Play Coordinator

Jared Thaler wrote:
This whole thing has been worth it for that last paragraph alone. Can that please be added to the guide? We have needed that for a long time.

Your welcome!

We will look to include it in the Season 8 guide.

The Exchange 5/5

Kahel Stormbender wrote:
nosig wrote:
Side Question: for someone who uses Hero Lab. How does it handle Masterwork Tools and Circumstance bonuses? Does it just add them in to the skill roll? or give you a note that you have a MW tool and CAN add it in if the circumstances apply? Say a Healers kit? does it add in the +2 or give you some indication that you have a +8/+10 with the Kit?

Masterwork tools get added into the total bonus with a line in the tooltip mentioning where the bonus is coming from. Actually, one sec while I verify.

...

Okay, both get added directly to the skill total. Then when you hover over the skill you get a tooltip that lists where each part of your bonus came from. For example if you're given a +2 circumstance bonus due to having a skilled apprentice helping you (or another skilled cobbler) your Craft: Shoes skill might read as follows.

Craft: shoes +9

The tooltip will then break it down with the following line:

+9 = 1(ranks) +3(class skill) +1 (int mod) +2(tools [artisan's tools, masterwork]) +2(circumstance bonus)

Situational bonuses though aren't automatically added in. Instead there's an astrik next to the total. Then the tooltip will mention the situational bonuses at the top, and it's up to the player to include them.

Note, that you must have the masterwork tools checked in your Gear tab before they get added into the total. Other circumstance bonuses have to be added in manually via the Adjustments tab.

Thank you.

Sounds like more than just a glance. Any way to modify it to show the bonus without the MW tool, and still show that the tool is available to use if you want/need it?

4/5 *

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Jared Thaler wrote:
Kahel Stormbender wrote:
RyanH wrote:


I have seen examples of people searching their character sheets at every session I have ever played.
I have been that person. Heck, last Tuesday I was GM for my lodge. And in combat I spent more time looking up info on the enemy stat blocks then adjudicating combat. Why? Because I had no freaking idea where things like the init modifier, movement speed, attack bonuses, and damage were located in the stat blocks. Then I had to double check that I'm looking at the correct tier stat block...
It doesn't help that they break across pages and columns. I find it helps to copy all stat blocks onto a seperate word document, so that they do not break across pages.

pfsprep.com is your friend... that work has been done for many scenarios.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
GM Lamplighter wrote:
Jared Thaler wrote:
Kahel Stormbender wrote:
RyanH wrote:


I have seen examples of people searching their character sheets at every session I have ever played.
I have been that person. Heck, last Tuesday I was GM for my lodge. And in combat I spent more time looking up info on the enemy stat blocks then adjudicating combat. Why? Because I had no freaking idea where things like the init modifier, movement speed, attack bonuses, and damage were located in the stat blocks. Then I had to double check that I'm looking at the correct tier stat block...
It doesn't help that they break across pages and columns. I find it helps to copy all stat blocks onto a seperate word document, so that they do not break across pages.
pfsprep.com is your friend... that work has been done for many scenarios.

Yeah, this was one of the first reasons why I started putting stuff up on pfsprep. I got tired of all the statblocks being broken across multiple pages and squished together.

Dark Archive 1/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
nosig wrote:
Kahel Stormbender wrote:
nosig wrote:
Side Question: for someone who uses Hero Lab. How does it handle Masterwork Tools and Circumstance bonuses? Does it just add them in to the skill roll? or give you a note that you have a MW tool and CAN add it in if the circumstances apply? Say a Healers kit? does it add in the +2 or give you some indication that you have a +8/+10 with the Kit?

Masterwork tools get added into the total bonus with a line in the tooltip mentioning where the bonus is coming from. Actually, one sec while I verify.

...

Okay, both get added directly to the skill total. Then when you hover over the skill you get a tooltip that lists where each part of your bonus came from. For example if you're given a +2 circumstance bonus due to having a skilled apprentice helping you (or another skilled cobbler) your Craft: Shoes skill might read as follows.

Craft: shoes +9

The tooltip will then break it down with the following line:

+9 = 1(ranks) +3(class skill) +1 (int mod) +2(tools [artisan's tools, masterwork]) +2(circumstance bonus)

Situational bonuses though aren't automatically added in. Instead there's an astrik next to the total. Then the tooltip will mention the situational bonuses at the top, and it's up to the player to include them.

Note, that you must have the masterwork tools checked in your Gear tab before they get added into the total. Other circumstance bonuses have to be added in manually via the Adjustments tab.

Thank you.

Sounds like more than just a glance. Any way to modify it to show the bonus without the MW tool, and still show that the tool is available to use if you want/need it?

It's listed in your equipment. For the print off, if you don't want the bonus always included, just uncheck it before printing. But then it's up to you, the player to remember to include the masterwork tool when appropriate. Or, as I mentioned, you can buy the MW tool and leave it unchecked. Then go into the adjustments tab to create a situational bonus to the skill and have that checked.

For example if the "masterwork tool" is having a skilled apprentice, then you set up a +2 situational bonus for Craft: Shoes, Source: Masterwork Tool, Duration: Skilled apprentice.

This isn't directly added to your shoe crafting skill. Instead there's an astrik and a notation that you have a situational bonus of +2 with skilled apprentice.

That's just how I would do it though.

Dark Archive 1/5

GM Lamplighter wrote:
Jared Thaler wrote:
Kahel Stormbender wrote:
RyanH wrote:


I have seen examples of people searching their character sheets at every session I have ever played.
I have been that person. Heck, last Tuesday I was GM for my lodge. And in combat I spent more time looking up info on the enemy stat blocks then adjudicating combat. Why? Because I had no freaking idea where things like the init modifier, movement speed, attack bonuses, and damage were located in the stat blocks. Then I had to double check that I'm looking at the correct tier stat block...
It doesn't help that they break across pages and columns. I find it helps to copy all stat blocks onto a seperate word document, so that they do not break across pages.
pfsprep.com is your friend... that work has been done for many scenarios.

Part of my prep work issue was that I was doing data entry into hero lab and ran out of time. That work'll be finished by the time I run the module again though.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne

Marak Cobbler wrote:
trollbill wrote:
Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
The PFS setting is fairly good, although I have seen a few options slip through the cracks here and there.
I find it to be mostly accurate, as well. Only problem I am currently having with it is that it keeps telling me my Ranger's Dire Rat animal companion isn't legal for PFS.
That's okay, it keeps telling me my race isn't legal. But I have the convention boon to be an aasimar.

That makes sense that it would say a Boon only item was illegal. (Though I suppose some sort of Boon exception button might be nice). Dire Rat is one of the listed legal ranger animal companions in the CORE rules.

Dark Archive 1/5

Submit that as a bug, including citation?

In other news, I showed the ruling post to my regional coordinator before we started today's session since he'd said he stopped following this thread after the first couple pages. Overall the ruling strikes me as common sense. Still, it comes just in time for me. My printer ran out of ink half way through printing my core monk's sheet with equipment updates. And the ruling on if people have to leave early was also a good thing to get.

Grand Lodge 4/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
trollbill wrote:
Marak Cobbler wrote:
trollbill wrote:
Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
The PFS setting is fairly good, although I have seen a few options slip through the cracks here and there.
I find it to be mostly accurate, as well. Only problem I am currently having with it is that it keeps telling me my Ranger's Dire Rat animal companion isn't legal for PFS.
That's okay, it keeps telling me my race isn't legal. But I have the convention boon to be an aasimar.
That makes sense that it would say a Boon only item was illegal. (Though I suppose some sort of Boon exception button might be nice). Dire Rat is one of the listed legal ranger animal companions in the CORE rules.

There is a way to add in various PFS exception options, using ShadowChemosh's free add-on for HeroLab. It gives a way to add adjustments for feats, races, archetypes, and something-or-other else to a specific PC. Makes most of my non-standard PCs not show errors for boon races, unlocked-by-boon archetypes, etc.

The Exchange 5/5

trollbill wrote:
nosig wrote:
Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
nosig wrote:

not sure if that would work for me...

I normally use a "filled in" PC sheet. and for the skills that PC has MW tools for I put the note "M" or "K" for "Masterwork tool or Kit" next to my bonus. something like +15M. That way I know to mention it when the Judge asked for a skill check.

My wife likes to print multiple sheets with different checkboxes marked. She then labels them. Usually it's for different attack routines, so she'll have 'Full Attack', 'Full Attack w/Deadly Aim', 'Full Attack w/Rapid Shot', 'Full Attack w/Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim', and so on.

not using Hero Lab I'm not sure how this works, or would work for what I do.

Currently, for things like attack routines, I would just have a small note (perhaps a table) listing off the different combos. I do this for my sister who often runs marital types. (her ranger for example would have- One Shot, Full Attack, those combined with Rapid Shot and/or Deadly Aim, etc.) But even then she might have the note +12PBS in her "To hit" box. This tells her that within 30' she had another +1 (Point Blank Shot).

But my question was concerning if there is some way to tell if a skill has a MW tool available to be included - without printing two different sheets. Something like an "*" after the bonus...

Oddly, Hero Lab will indeed list many circumstantial bonuses as just that. Things like an Elf's bonus to saves against enchantment or an Inquisitor's bonus to knowledge checks to identify creatures appears as a note under the appropriate save or skill. In such cases, it does not calculate that bonus into save or skill. But for some reason it doesn't treat masterwork tools this way. It is something you could always request they add. They are pretty good about listening to customers.

I've been thinking and reflecting on other, older posts concerning Masterwork Tools and the way we currently seem to use them in PFS.

So this is sort of a repost from another (older) thread on Masterwork tools, and the important part that I can see for this thread is that players often forget to tell the judge they are using a masterwork tool. Heck, using Hero Lab it seems they may not even know it themselves. If I understand it correctly (I'm not a Hero Lab user myself - I think I would find it kind of limiting) the bonus is just added into their skill bonus (or not) and there is no way of knowing that it's there.

I currently use a PC sheet written in with a pencil partly so I can note which of my skills have a MW Tool associated with them (or other odd bonuses). That way, when the judge calls for a skill check on a PC that I may run once every six months (if that often), I can glance down and see the skill bonus listed as +5M, and know that the M means I have a Masterwork Tool for that skill. I then can say something like "Take 10 gives me a 15, 17 with my Masterwork Tool."

I have noticed some other players who use MW Tools will just add the bonus into their skill number, and often even forget that it is there. (It sounds like Hero-Lab does this automatically?) So the question "What's your Stealth" nets a reply of "+10" which might or might not include a bonus for a Masterwork tool (say felt slippers to muffle footsteps perhaps?). This is in effect transferring "control" of the circumstance bonus given by a Masterwork Tool from the Judge to the player, or even to Hero Lab if the player forgets (or never really learns) how he gets the total bonus he has.

Is this actually a problem? I'm not sure. Do you think it is?

Here's some questions for those players who use MW Tools on their PCs... how do you let a judge know that you are using one? Do you do it every time? Do you even know what the circumstances for adding in the bonus are? Do you even know if your PC is using a MW Tool? What about those MW tools that have a limited number of uses (like a Healers Kit)? How do we, as players, remember to track these uses - adding the bonus when we need it (and when we think it will apply) but saving the "charge" when we really aren't worried about it, or when we think we think it wont apply.

I know I don't always tell the judge, and I try to. But in the heat of the game, when the judge has "the flow" of the story going, it sometimes get's lost in the play. The question "Stealth?" get's a reply of "20" instead of "Take 10 plus 8, plus 2 for my Masterwork Tool of felt slippers gives me a 20" because it is just more "in the flow" - keeping the story going. And if, unknown to me the monster is trying to detect me using SCENT (where my slippers wouldn't help), then I've just added in a circumstance bonus that I actually shouldn't get - and no one will notice.

So, something I think we should all try to remember about Generic Masterwork tools... we need permission to get the bonus. It's a circumstance bonus, and circumstance bonuses are (and should be) under the control of the Judge, as they are the only person at the table who knows all the circumstances involved. So it is a bonus they should apply - or not, depending on circumstances. I would think that Hero Lab should be able to reflect this - if it can't, perhaps it needs to be "fixed"?

There, just felt that needed to be added to this thread, now I'll go back to lurking...

5/5 5/55/55/5

There's a reasonable argument to be made for 50 gp, here's your masterwork tool, add 2 to your skill and move on especially if they only have the players handbook. A player taking that position may not be aware of any controversy, may forget about where the +2 comes from, may be sure that the mw tool would apply to the situation etc. So the +2 to a skill without a rules debate every time is probably more of a time saver than a power grab.

(I don't do this for myself, because I know its not how it works, but I don't expect my players to know that. Most of my masterwork tools are excuses to buy unlisted items, Like my aspis hating saurian shaman with a mr T esque necklace of aspis badges for a +2 to intimidate aspis agents)

Dark Archive 1/5

Only masterwork tools my characters have are involved with their day job. And then it's only if it's a crafting day job such as Marak's shoe making. In which case, the assumption is if he's working his day job (only time I'm rolling for craft: shoes) then he needs to use tools or he suffers a penalty. He owns a set of masterwork cobbler tools, so naturally those are the ones he uses.

Masterwork tools for a specific task which always needs tools, I'd say just include the bonus. A rogue who owns a masterwork thief's tool kit is going to always use it. If they aren't using it, chances are they don't have access to tools anyway.

Masterwork tools that have limited effective situations (such as one that only boosts diplomacy when dealing with men) are more complicated. In that case, don't auto include the bonus, but have a note for when the bonus applies.

1/5

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Tonya Woldridge wrote:

So the team discussed the issue. Over the course of the thread, several topics emerged as issues related to, but independent of, the original post (OP).

OP — Digital Character Sheets
The campaign recognizes the use of technology in the Pathfinder Society organized play program and the variety of tools available to players. However, a player must possess a clear and legible character sheet that they are comfortable giving to a GM to review. There is no standard character sheet format required. Regarding electronic devices, if you are not comfortable with a GM viewing (and perhaps briefly handling) the device in order to review your character information, you should consider keeping character information in a format you are willing to hand to a GM.

Related — Banning Electronic Devices at the Table
Nothing is inherently banned at the table.

Related — Distractions at the Table
No game table is completely free of distractions. However, if something (like an electronic device) creates an ongoing distraction, a GM can request that the player put it away or police his own use of the device (such as not also using a tablet computer to play a video game). If the device continues to be a distraction, the GM has the right to ban that particular item for the duration of the game.

Related — Losing a Player at a Table
Sometimes circumstances prevent a player from completing a scenario. Reasons include—but are not limited to—personal emergencies, device battery issues, venue problems, and bad timing. To mitigate the impact on the table, GMs may exercise their discretion by adjusting the scenario’s subtier to accommodate the table’s new APL, bring in the pregenerated character that most closely resembles the lost PC, or postpone the game until all players are able to complete the scenario. In the event that a character sheet is no longer accessible due to a loss of battery power, the player may play the pregenerated character and apply the scenario’s rewards to his original...

these are good things

thank you

Grand Lodge 4/5

@nosig: For masterwork tools that apply to all uses of a skill, like Masterwork Thieve's Tools, it includes the bonus, and removes the penalty, when applicable, if you have it checked.

For a situational bonus, like a masterwork tool that only applies in certain circumstances, it will add a note about it.

For both, however, if you hover over the skill on a Windows box, it will bring up a pop-up window showing the full breakdown for the skill total shown, any situational modifiers that might apply, and even the actual text from the skill from the CRB, including any standard DCs listed.

=====================================
To be honest, many people just add the tools because they apply to many situations they use the skill in, and don't always remember when it doesn't.

It also reduces Horibilimus Skillimus Decriptionomus, like the following, an actual skill description I have to include for my Unchained Rogue:
Human Unchained Rogue 9, Strength based
Perception +13
Trapfinding: +4 to locate traps
Danger Sense: +3 bonus to avoid being surprised by a foe
Canny Observer: +4 bonus to hearing the details of a conversation, or to find hidden or secret objects, including doors and traps
Rogue's Edge: +1 per 20' distance modifier to the DC, +5 instead of +10 for DC modifier when sleeping
Breakdown: 9 ranks, 3 class skill, +1 competence bonus (cracked incandescent blue sphere Ioun stone)

2/5

The changes mentioned are awesome, but the adjustment of the scenario seems confusing to me. Say I am running a 1-5 scenario, and the party is in the 4-5 tier. Say they get through approximately 2/3s and find some of the items that are unique to the 4-5 tier.

Now a player has to leave and the result is it causes them to be playing in the lower subtier. They still earned those rewards from the higher subtier right? Just not future ones that appear later in the adventure?

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/5

Bakutaku wrote:

The changes mentioned are awesome, but the adjustment of the scenario seems confusing to me. Say I am running a 1-5 scenario, and the party is in the 4-5 tier. Say they get through approximately 2/3s and find some of the items that are unique to the 4-5 tier.

Now a player has to leave and the result is it causes them to be playing in the lower subtier. They still earned those rewards from the higher subtier right? Just not future ones that appear later in the adventure?

All rewards would be downgraded to the lower subtier, as if you'd played that subtier from the start.

But you're misreading Tonya's message. It says:

Quote:
To mitigate the impact on the table, GMs may exercise their discretion by adjusting the scenario’s subtier to accommodate the table’s new APL, bring in the pregenerated character that most closely resembles the lost PC, or postpone the game until all players are able to complete the scenario.

Emphasis mine. So if the players are adamant they want to continue at the higher subtier with 5 players instead of 6 (even though their APL went down), the GM should respect that wish.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/5

Tonya Woldridge wrote:

Related — Losing a Player at a Table

Sometimes circumstances prevent a player from completing a scenario. Reasons include—but are not limited to—personal emergencies, device battery issues, venue problems, and bad timing. To mitigate the impact on the table, GMs may exercise their discretion by adjusting the scenario’s subtier to accommodate the table’s new APL, bring in the pregenerated character that most closely resembles the lost PC, or postpone the game until all players are able to complete the scenario.

To be clear, does this include introducing a 4-player adjustment, e.g. in a case of a table dropping from 5 to 4 players (but all PCs being the same level, so the APL of the table remains the same)?


nosig wrote:
trollbill wrote:
nosig wrote:
Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
nosig wrote:

not sure if that would work for me...

I normally use a "filled in" PC sheet. and for the skills that PC has MW tools for I put the note "M" or "K" for "Masterwork tool or Kit" next to my bonus. something like +15M. That way I know to mention it when the Judge asked for a skill check.

My wife likes to print multiple sheets with different checkboxes marked. She then labels them. Usually it's for different attack routines, so she'll have 'Full Attack', 'Full Attack w/Deadly Aim', 'Full Attack w/Rapid Shot', 'Full Attack w/Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim', and so on.

not using Hero Lab I'm not sure how this works, or would work for what I do.

Currently, for things like attack routines, I would just have a small note (perhaps a table) listing off the different combos. I do this for my sister who often runs marital types. (her ranger for example would have- One Shot, Full Attack, those combined with Rapid Shot and/or Deadly Aim, etc.) But even then she might have the note +12PBS in her "To hit" box. This tells her that within 30' she had another +1 (Point Blank Shot).

But my question was concerning if there is some way to tell if a skill has a MW tool available to be included - without printing two different sheets. Something like an "*" after the bonus...

Oddly, Hero Lab will indeed list many circumstantial bonuses as just that. Things like an Elf's bonus to saves against enchantment or an Inquisitor's bonus to knowledge checks to identify creatures appears as a note under the appropriate save or skill. In such cases, it does not calculate that bonus into save or skill. But for some reason it doesn't treat masterwork tools this way. It is something you could always request they add. They are pretty good about listening to customers.

I've been thinking and reflecting on other, older posts concerning Masterwork Tools and the way we currently seem to use them in PFS.

So this is sort...

In herolab under the "gear" tab you have to equip the masterwork tool to get the masterwork bonus. If you unequip the tool you lose the bonus. Herolab calculates the bonuses for all equipped items as though you always have them available.

Silver Crusade 5/5

Matt Lewis wrote:
Tonya Woldridge wrote:

Related — Losing a Player at a Table

Sometimes circumstances prevent a player from completing a scenario. Reasons include—but are not limited to—personal emergencies, device battery issues, venue problems, and bad timing. To mitigate the impact on the table, GMs may exercise their discretion by adjusting the scenario’s subtier to accommodate the table’s new APL, bring in the pregenerated character that most closely resembles the lost PC, or postpone the game until all players are able to complete the scenario.
To be clear, does this include introducing a 4-player adjustment, e.g. in a case of a table dropping from 5 to 4 players (but all PCs being the same level, so the APL of the table remains the same)?

It says to use your discretion, but that sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

2/5

ok so in the most extreme cases of going 4 to 3 seems like it will affect things terribly otherwise even going 5 to 4 seems like it isn't going to be that big of a deal.

Dark Archive 4/5 5/5 ****

Bakutaku wrote:
ok so in the most extreme cases of going 4 to 3 seems like it will affect things terribly otherwise even going 5 to 4 seems like it isn't going to be that big of a deal.

Actually, not so bad... As you can bring in a pregen

1/5 5/5

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The better part of this is that a table doesn't have to worry about 'being held hostage' by an obnoxious player(s).

A disruptive player can now theoretically be asked to leave with the knowledge that they can be replaced with a pregen at GM discretion.

Unless I'm mis-reading this?

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


The better part of this is that a table doesn't have to worry about 'being held hostage' by an obnoxious player(s).

A disruptive player can now theoretically be asked to leave with the knowledge that they can be replaced with a pregen at GM discretion.

Unless I'm mis-reading this?

Nope. You are reading correctly.

Quote:
Sometimes circumstances prevent a player from completing a scenario. Reasons include—but are not limited to—

Getting kicked from the table is a circumstance that would prevent a player from completing the scenario.

Dark Archive 1/5

I would hope that's a clause not needed often. But I'd imagine it does come up more often then people would like.

3/5 5/5

Well, people probably would like it to never come up, so yeah.

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Just checking:

As a GM, I'm wonder if there are guidelines about the pre-gen replacement.

Let's say I'm running a table and a player who is running a 5th-level Warpriest of Erastil has his laptop die on him. The closest pre-gen I have available is 4th-level Kyra.

The Warpriest has been pretty badly beaten up, and has used most of his spells. He also used up about 35 charges from his cure light wounds wand. So I decide that Kyra is also down to about 7 hit points and has used up most of her spells and wand charges.

(It would be grossly unfair to reward a player with a fresh pre-gen, if their own PC were close to death.)

I can see the new pre-gen getting killed. That kills the player's Warpriest character, of course. If the other players don't chip the gold for a raise dead, the PC is permanently dead because he doesn't have access to his prestige.

Do I understand this correctly?

Dark Archive 1/5

Well, I'm signed up for a convention next month. And at least one of the sessions I'm signed up for is rather long. Unless there's an outlet near the table my laptop can't possibly last that long. So my plan is to bring my 2ndary (crappy) laptop to use just in case. I'll also have my tablet with me. This will have a PDF copy of my char sheet I can use while my 2nd laptop is booting up. Or maybe I'll just stop in at a copy store or the library and print off a physical copy to use if/when my laptop dies.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Baltic

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Chris Mortika wrote:
Do I understand this correctly?

I would allow access to the prestige in this extreme case.

Tonya wrote:
...GMs may exercise their discretion...

This gives you quite a margin to work within without needing to specify every possible situation. Just use your fair judgement and expertise.

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