RyanH's page

I hope they try to work in the delves... it was fun playing quick/crazy encounters with various Paizo employees. Great way to meet staff and play. Maybe using one of the 3D table tops. I don't know... but I'll miss the delves.

How have guests artists been incorporated into prior online events? I'd love to see sessions with the artists, live drawing... and commissions. One of my favorite things from prior PaizoCons was coming back with custom art pieces.

I also loved the many cool opportunities via lottery to play more extensive (and different) games with paizo staff. I always made a point of trying to meet new staff each con.

Had to go for the refund... out doing more now, but a convention is just too much (for me)! The smaller size will be nice for those that are there... you all have fun!

I'll try to catch some of the talks online.

@HumbleGamer: and it looks like the life mystery curse diminishes healing by half level, requires I heal myself... not flat-footed.

Yeah... spell casters are always appealing for choice. Want some good melee in there too, I know there's tons of melee/full caster builds.

I want to play all the things.

I guess to be more general, without focusing on that exact build, what I'm looking for is a build that allows me to boost/aid my allies in interesting ways while still getting to participate in the violence (have useful combat actions to take.)

And I like choices each round, sometimes painful choices of "do I do this good thing or this other good thing" I like my 1e Magus for the level of combat-round choice, and resource management (do I blow my arcane pool on this or this?)

Thanks for all the responses. This gives me some things to mess around with building (will look at the Witch dedication!).

What I was asking about/looking for, was I enjoyed the life link/lay-on-hands all handled with free actions, so still had the ability to do interesting things with the rest of my turn... including melee. Helping my party, and the management of how far to go before laying-on-hands, while taking their and my damage was fun. (Ultimate Mercy for Raise Dead with 10 uses of LOH was pretty handy too.)

One of my favorite characters in terms of diversity of options each round, and being a fun party contributor was a life link Oradin.

I like melee and combat options... could focus on ranged (better for a life-linker), but does anyone have any interesting Lifelink Oradin type builds?

Are you one of the many GMs out there, wanting to GM, but can't commit to a WEEKLY game... well, here's your opportunity to jump in without such a commitment!

I'm looking for a MONTHLY game... PF2 preferably, but would play PF1 as well. Available Monday, Tuesday, Thursday evenings PST.

Email sent... let's hope Paizo secures a position as a leader and trailblazer in this industry by voluntarily recognizing the union. A strong and healthy employee-management relationship will result in a stronger and healthier Paizo... good for everyone.

p.s. United Paizo Workers... you should sell shirts with that awesome graphic. Use the proceeds to start developing some union funds.

Here's the shirt/merch I asked for!

Email sent... let's hope Paizo secures a position as a leader and trailblazer in this industry by voluntarily recognizing the union. A strong and healthy employee-management relationship will result in a stronger and healthier Paizo... good for everyone.

p.s. United Paizo Workers... you should sell shirts with that awesome graphic. Use the proceeds to start developing some union funds.

... ok, since we have some healing, going with Amiri if it's all right with ya-all...

Player name: Ryan
2) Character name: Ellenhar the Scourge
3) PFS#-Character#: # 36007-2003
4) Character Class & Level: 1 - unknown's
5) Faction: Grand Archive
6) Regular or slow speed for chronicle: Regular

Will apply credit to this guy.

Ok... so we ARE supposed to be doing 5th?

Looks like we have a Sorcerer 3, and an Alchemist 6...

So, yes, like Delorn said, a Champion is not a bad choice for one of the preens? Anyone else have any preferences... I don't really care what I play, I have not done much past 1st in 2E and happy to try out any of the mechanics.

I'd be happy to run a pregen as well... just have a firsty from PaizoCon Online so I don't have my own to play. I am hoping to get more involved here again.

RyanH, you character profile says that your Spell DC is 15, it should be 16.

I realized while driving home from work today that I didn't include level anywhere...

Suuhweet... I almost posted yesterday... "looking to playtest first level magus... any games?"

Thanks!

I'm in with a Magus if there's room.

...damn. I'm not in the US.

Maybe we need a stream where we all make goblin brains together...

Are there going to be any staff run games like at a "standard" PaizoCon?

We just sent the email out to badge and banquet ticket holders.

I didn't get it... since I intend to roll it forward, it probably doesn't matter for me, but FYI... not received. (and I checked spam)

Hear! Hear!

Just got an email from Origins: on or before May 1st will be their date to decide whether to cancel the con. Fingers crossed, also concerned if vendors will show up. The impact of lot of con cancellations in the spring could be a boon for summer cons if the Coronavirus threat subsides by May.

This is going to come in cycles for the next 12-18 months. Restrictions will loosen up, then tighten, in an attempt to keep current infections down, but business flowing at some level. Until there's herd immunity through us all having had it, or a vaccine, conventions may be a thing of the past, or lucky timing for the few still willing to risk a large gathering. It may be hard to plan a large convention, when social-distancing periods are unpredictable.

This is assuming that immunity is possible... if you've been following that open question.

EDIT: On the plus side, I went from here to CNN and see "Mainland China on Thursday reported no new locally transmitted coronavirus cases for the first time since the the pandemic began late last year, marking a major turning point in the global battle to contain Covid-19."

So, hopefully large groups of us do start gaming again soon...

You've been lucky, then. I've listed 5-10 3/4s for each day and end up with one for the weekend, both years I've gone.

5-10 sessions, assuming it's 6 seat games is at mach 60 potential seats... if you are picked on average at spot 400 then you're likely going to miss most of them.

I pick one or two game prioritized as 4's for the day, three or four 3's for the day and then probably 5-10 or more 1's and 2's PER session of the day... There are three sessions a day so say I'm doing just 10 per session, that's 30 I pick per day, so at least up to 180 seats minimum have to get filled before it gets to me for me to not get anything. I do get days without... but I usually get a good number of sessions.

Pick more potential games.

Careful not to mark everything a 4, mark your top thing as a 4... you aren't less likely to get something if you mark it a 1... when it's your turn, you get your highest ranked thing that still has seats. If you have five marked at 4, you get a random one of the five picks. So, mark just one or two games as a 4... sprinkle in the 1's and 2's liberally.

It will be important to see what happens in China as everything opens back up and people start mingling again.

The CDC also just recommended no 50+ gatherings four eight weeks, which ends a little before when PaizoCon is scheduled.

All Washington schools are closed until April 25th... I'll reassess my plans at that time. Luckily I don't have to make flight decisions, so I can be more flexible than many of you. If it's cancelled it'll be too bad... but pretty minor in the scheme of things.

I hope to see you all soon, if not there! Certainly a highlight of the year.

Great write up Haladir!

One small bit of expectation management I like to tell people about the lottery -- you should only assume you're going to get 1 event from the lottery. If you're counting on filling most of your schedule with lottery events, you'll end up disappointed.

This really depends on how many lottery events you're willing/wanting to attend. If you're open to lots of different things and sign up for many, then you can get more... I usually get about one or two a day...

The lottery picker cycles through each attendee randomly and assigns them to their highest rated lottery selection that still has room.

If everyone signed up for something for each day, on average say 400 people would get their selections before you for each day... if you select that you would go to enough different sessions that when all added up equaled more than 400 seats, then you'd, on average, get into one lottery a day.

for every day, I mark my really important ones highest on priority, I usually have one or two marked highest (4 I think)
Then 3 or 4 sessions marked as 3's
Then more 2's
Then a bunch of 1's

I'm pretty flexible in the lottery events... I try to select staffers I've never met or played with before... games I've never played, things that just sound interesting etc...

After I see my scheduled lottery events, I fill the rest with society play, pick some seminars that sound cool, and leave space for breaks, store, delves, paint and take, getting a commission from the artists, etc.

SO much to do. Just purposefully be flexible and seek out new and different things.

Great... I'll get MacQuaid to check in too...

Looks like just three signed up right now... Gus, Johnny, and Minea... correct?

My son and I have two firsties... played our first SFS sessions at the last PaizoCon and are looking to do some PbP. I've played alot of PFS PbP... he's new, but I'm with him to help.

RyanH - Mechanic 1 (exoskeleton)
MacQuaid - Operative

I concur with all of the above! Been going for a few years now, and it's always a superb weekend of gaming! Everything went without a hitch for my son and me, and we got to try some new things, and meet some different Paizo staffers (I always try for lottery events with different staffers than prior years), and it's always cool running into people we've played with throughout the past conventions... sometimes the same characters are meeting up again...

PaizoCon IS a "small and laid back convention," but is big enough to have more than enough to do with all the informational seminars, actual play podcast, gaming and more. Plenty to keep us coming back!

I don't know if it's different than the normal paint, but here's what my son and I got...

Wereleopard - click for image on Flickr

Terrain always adds a cool element to a game... and this Dwarven Forge Dungeon of Doom session (even paired down from a full 14 rooms!) was a blast! The number of rooms was just about right for the length of our session and was a pretty good mix of combat and old school dungeon-delve-paranoia.

@NielsenE was a good and fair GM. Everyone at the table seemed to have a good time.

Thanks!

Thanks for the great game! My son and I enjoyed the opportunity to get a taste of Pathfinder 2 while playing an engaging adventure.

Was a cool idea to get players to draw pumpkins!

Would be happy to play in other sessions run by Linda, and always cool to play an adventure with the author!

Thanks!

This was a blast. I played as a bloody skeleton and my son played as a vampire. We also had an undead giant and a ghost. We got to see a glimpse of the 2e rules while playing a wacky adventure where we all woke up as undead, in prison

Well run, funny, and a great experience!

Yes, true... if they never know of the change that would be no good! Not everyone is a forum user...

I agree about competency... could ban certain spells? But, yes, not knowing anything about the adventure, you're the best judge @NeilsenE!

This link shows that there is Express Mail service...

Have not used it, maybe call...

Saaaay... you should have us roll up higher level characters... you know, slip us some rules so we can. You can trust us...

Thanks for the info... My son and I are in the Saturday game and we're both looking forward to it! Happy to go 3rd level or higher (it IS always nice to have a bit MORE durability, and hit the more interesting builds... but happy with whatever)

In any case, excited to play in some awesome 3D Terrain!

Sweet... looking forward to it!

So is it Pathfinder or P2E?

I'm guessing latest PLAYTEST... so neither. But I don't know... I AM in the game though...

No notice here either. Thanks for the heads up! Need to plan being available for signups end of the week then too!

So, in Carrion Crown my Magus is likely soon to be insane (the GM is using some 3rd party insanity rules), and my most likely replacement character will be Kendra Lorrimor, who recently hitched up with the party (We're in Chapter 4, Wake of the Watcher)

Here's how she was provided by the GM... I'd like to come up with a plan to level her after this that will make her fun and awesome...

Her Divining makes her great out of combat but want ideas that will make her a contributor in and out of combat,... while also following the story. She respected/admired the my Magus, so following in his footsteps makes some sense... and he's obsessed originally with storm based and electrical magics, but because of the campaign is now obsessed with necromancy. I could see her continuing to focus on divining, or put some energy into necromancy because of the magus AND her father's research. The magus has been toying with animating dead.

Level 7 - Diviner
Opposing School: Illusion, Evocation
Arcane Bond: Amulet

STR: 8
Dex: 12
Con: 12
Int: 17
Wis: 13
Cha 15

Feats:
Diviners Delving
Greater Spell Focus: Divination
Iron Will
Improved Iron Will
Scribe Scroll
Craft Wand
Spell Focus Divination

Spells
1: Charm Person, Ears of the City, Feather Fall, Identify, Liberating Command, Mage Armor, Memory Lapse, Windy Escape, Detect Secret Doors, Heightened Awareness, Hold Portal, Ray of Enfeeblement
2: Command Undead, Commune With Birds, Create Treasure Map, Demand Offering, See Invisibility, Detect Thoughts, Glitterdust
3. Blood Biography, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Suggestion, Hold Person, summon Monster III, Seek Thoughts, Slow
4: Charm Monster, Scrying, Enervation, Greater Invisibility, Mneomonic Enhancer

Magic Items
Amulet of Spell Cunning, Cloak of the Bat, Lessor Extend Metamagic Rod, Peal of Power X 2, Ring of Counter Spells (Magic Missle), Ring of Protection +1, Rod of Flame Extinguishing, Wand of Chill Touch, Wand of Command Undead, Wand of Suggestion

Given the severe lack of downtime in Carrion Crown, retraining and crafting time are limited.

One obvious consequence of Jason's post is that there should be some things that everybody is at least trained in, as the game system is not set up for somebody to be actively bad at them. For example, nobody is untrained in any saving throws.

Interesting... the character sheet does have a spot for untrainted in saving throws, but that would never be checked. I guess the position is only necessary for common peasants? Or is EVERYTHING at least trained in each saving throw?

There is a psychological component here, to be sure, but there is also a simple game "signaling" reason.

Characters, generally are only untrained in the things they should avoid doing, to give space for others to excel in those areas. Negatives help to reinforce that notion. We could shift all the math up, but we would lose that learning edge.

It's not huge, but it is worth it for now.

Thanks... that answers the original question as to what the design reason is.

I just realized, and I don't think anyone has said this...

..starting with a negative for untrained has always been the case (probably even in 5e)

in 1E, 3.5, as far back as AD&D I think, if you're proficient in your armor or weapon it's +0 as a base... if you're not-proficient (untrained) it's -4 to hit with weapons... and there are penatlies with armor... skills were just 0 if you didn't have training (or you flat out could not do the skill without training for some)

The difference is they took these multiple disperate systems that all behaved differently, and made one system for all of these things (armor, weapons, skills, spells, etc) modeled somewaht on weapon proficeincy (starting at -4 if you're untrained), and somewhat after To Hit (automatically goes up with level), and somewhat after skills (you can choose to boost some).

The -4 is a mechanic that has always been in the system, it's just become more obvious because it isn't just weapons

Edit: Just looked up 5e to see how it worked... if you are not proficient in your weapon, you just don't get your proficency bonus. So, +0 base for untrained and goes up from there as your proficency grows. (Does that mean a 20th level 5e wizard is +0 with the two-handed sword? If so, for comparison the 20th level PF2 wizard is -4 for untrained, +20 for level for +16 to hit with the two-hander.)

If they'd made Untrained 0 and boosted everything else by 4, they'd have to write errata for more of the book. And as it is mathematically identical, they didn't do that, because it was silly.

Plus, Untrained already had a negative modifier and it made more sense to just increase that penalty rather than shove everything around.

They intend to re-release the entire book any way... this is a playtest intended to find issues and correct them. It would be more silly to leave something sub-optimal just becuase they'd have to edit a little more. (IF it was suboptimal... not saying I'm right)

RyanH wrote:

Draco18s wrote:

I don't think people are going to play/not play based on whether the number is -4, -8, +0, or +206 (with all the other numbers scaled respectively).

You should have read the thread I was reading! :)

In any case... my original question stands, "what was the design goal/reasoning for penalizing with the -4 for untrained rather than going +0 as the untrained baseline."

I think many of everyone's above posts contain likely reasons... will leave this here to see if it gets a dev response.

They didn't do it for a design reason.

They did it for a psychological reason.

People were complaining that the difference between untrained and trained felt like it was too small. (Never mind that there are a lot of Skill Uses locked behind trained.)

So they made the penalty -4 so that when you look at that number on the character sheet it feels and looks like there is a more significant difference.

1) attempting to achieve a specific psychological result IS a design decision

2) I understand people wanted the gap to be larger... but that does not require the starting point to be negative, nor did that explain the original -2... this whole conversation stands if you replace -4 with the original -2.

I don't think people are going to play/not play based on whether the number is -4, -8, +0, or +206 (with all the other numbers scaled respectively).

You should have read the thread I was reading! :)

In any case... my original question stands, "what was the design goal/reasoning for penalizing with the -4 for untrained rather than going +0 as the untrained baseline."

I think many of everyone's above posts contain likely reasons... will leave this here to see if it gets a dev response.

I vastly prefer untrained being at a negative rather than 0. I want my characters to be bad at things they don't know how to do. I know I'm pretty awful at things I have zero skill at - no matter how good I am at some things, learning languages and playing musical instruments are things I'm completely untrained at (despite having actually taking lessons/classes in them). I want to be able to build characters who are also bad at things they don't know how to do, because, that's how life works.

But things that are difficult should just be a higher DC... otherwise, untrained at jumping is -4 and untrained at computer programming is -4... that makes no sense that I'm equally as bad at those to things and have an equal chance of success... the DC is what matters. And my lack of training is +0... I have no bonuses for training and no minuses for being exceptionally low intelligence or low strength etc.

So to you wanting to be bad at things... having untrained be zero, and all DC's being higher does the same thing.

I imagine what you're saying here though is the design reason. They wanted people to feel crappy at the things they aren't trained in. But, lest a designer chimes in, we won't know the actual reasons.

I know the -4 really turns off some people... I actually saw this argument brought up in another venue, and I agreed with the concerns, but not the vitriol (clearly not someone hoping to help make Pathfinder 2.0 a shining success.)... so in any case, knowing that some people will be turned off by penalizing players (and resulting in a negative gameplay experience for them), I was curious as to the reason.

I don't really care either way for MY experience (though I DO think +0 at untrained makes sense as the baseline), I agree with the sentiment that you should suck at stuff and it does not give me a negative feeling. BUT if we could attract more players by having a positive game-play feel for them (while achieving the exact same mathematical results as we have with the -4) then I vote for increasing our player-base and making Pathfinder more successful... cuz that's what I want.

I don’t know... seems like if I have “no training” I’d be at +0 ... that seems like a more intuative baseline. And go up from zero.

Negatives, or PENALTIES would happen if I was hampered, had low ability scores (below average), etc... the negative, is a penalty. Positives are training, boosts, enhancements, etc. zero is the average person trying a thing.

Base of zero seems 1) more intuitive and 2) isn’t penalizing the player (which again, just doesn’t make people excited to roll dice)

The spread between untrained and legendary is a different question and a different design decision.

Cuz of the perception of playing with negatives everywhere vs all advancement starts from zero and you increase. Psychology.

It is the same, so why at baseline cause the negative feeling of a -4 and why cause Extra (albeit simple) math from the get go. (Imagine that first player on their first time with their first 1at level character... “I rolled an 18!”... “sorry, no, you have to apply -4 to most of those skills”... just a negative experience right out the gate)

My question (not my complaint) is, “what is the design philosophy behind starting at negative” as I’m sure it wasn’t arbitrary.

Can someone point me to a thread about the math, or at least an explanation for why we start at -4 for proficiency? What's the reasoning for it.

Why not start at 0 for untrained, then boost as you gain... trained would be +4, etc. And just boost all the DC's by four? This seems so much more positive for the players. Instead of having a bunch of depression-inducing -4's, the character gains a boost (not just erases a negative) when they get trained.

I know that Paizo recently increased the gap between untrained and trained by reducing untrained from -2 to -4... and reduced some DCs. But couldn't we have done the same thing by upping untrained to +2... wouldn't even have had to lower DCs in that case.

Again, my objective here is to get pointed to a discussion on why the design decision to make "Trained" being +0 is important, why choose starting at -4.