RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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One thing of note for Cleric archetypes in general is that a lot of deities only have one good domain anyways. Losing your second domain as a cleric of one of those deities stings a lot less.
That is entirely not the case. Just going off the deity list alphabetically: Abadar gets nobility and travel. Asmodeus has law, magic, and trickery. Callistria gets chaos, charm, luck, and trickery. Cayden gets chaos, charm and travel. Desna has liberation, luck, and travel. And so on and so forth.
I see absolutely no ground for your earlier statement. Perhaps you are just not aware how useful many domains are? Or looking at them merely for the bonus spells?
What do you think about the Dragonheir Scion (Fighter archetype)?
What do you think about the Dragonheir Scion (Fighter archetype)?
Very solid archetype with some unfortunately errors in its rules text (the PFS ruling is very sensible, so I'll presume we're using that). It's probably +1/+1 since it's basically trading up on every class feature, and those wings (although they come late) are very appealing. Its only major downside is that it eats into your swift action economy, but that's typically a non-issue for fighters.
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I'll take an easy one: Arcanist.
Note that I really hate how archetypes don't say "you must take this special exploit/talent/revelation at level 1 and 3", they replace your exploits/talents etc. with other abilities, and prevents you from taking Extra Special Sauce feats until you actually have a sauce of your choice. I hate it, and it colors my valuation of archetypes that replace both the level 1, 3 and 5 archetypes.
Brown-fur Transmuter (average): Did I mention you're a half-bab class with no melee support abilities? Still, it doesn't cost much, and the level 9 ability is very decent for buffing your meat shield.
I'm currently playing a Brown Fur transmuter in Giantslayer. No single exploit, or group of exploits, compares to the L9 ability of this archetype. It makes such significant changes to the playstyle of an arcane caster, that it is almost like it's own class.
Monstrous Physique single-handedly breaks the campaign, and I constantly find myself holding back or on indefinite delay during combats. Turn 2 PCs into Tikbalangs or Thriae Queens, caste haste, and you will re-visit the value of transmutation spells for all classes.
Enlarge person granting +4 strength at L3 is good. At L9 this archetype goes to hyper-blue, but is balanced a bit by the limited spell slots. By L14 you can use and abuse the transmutation school, and turn your party into unstoppable archons of death. Using reach spells to grant personal buffs from across the battlefield is wildly unbalancing.
I feel a bit guilty putting overland flight on half the party, then turning them into killing machines, teleporting to the greatest threat, and sipping mojitos for the rest of the day. I have intentionally nerfed the rest of my feats and exploits due to the overwhelming power of the Brown Fur Transmuter. I've cast caustic blood on our front-liners just as a joke.
Furthermore, depending on the interpretation of your GM, annihilation spectacles could grant your entire party access to your spellbook, which is an unbelievably powerful option. Quick study is a standard action if you rule against the spectacles. I didn't even ask our GM, as the power level of the Brown Fur Transmuter is already so incredible.
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For quite some time I wanted to roleplay a a Druid with the Wild Whisperer archetypes, and though many might argue it is a downgrade there are reasons for such.
To start out, I never much cared for the concept of a Druid which had control or mastery of elemental forces. Thus archetype makes it so the druid cannot transform into elementala or plants, which I prefer. It doesn't hurt that the archetype gives inspiration to the class.
Anyone gone to the extent of updating the untouched classes, like druid, medium, Mesmerist, etc.?
Many of the other handbooks are so far behind.
What are people's thoughts on the Shifter class?
What are people's thoughts on the Shifter class?
Terrible, and terribly disappointing.
It's a more complicated, less useful, more limited version of shapeshifting on a class where it's supposed to be the thing they do, and just... they get nothing. They really get nothing.
We're talking tier 6 bad.
I haven't given much attention to the Shifter, to be honest. I kept my expectations low because I anticipated what was going to happen, and when it did happen I shrugged and moved on.
I agree, I wasn't expecting a lot from it. Unfortunately, it seems to be even lower than my expectations should have allowed.
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Hi everyone,
Apologies for necroing this thread.
I'm a long-time lurker and a big fan of the archetype guide. I wanted to give something back to the community, so I've started reformatting the archetype list. My vision is a comprehensive document with one formatting style and voice. I've done quite a bit of the rough work already and am near the point where I need to share it with the broader community (I don't have the system mastery to comment on the ratings.)
I wanted to check with this group before moving forward. Is this worthwhile endeavor? What is the best way to proceed? I have many questions I'd like to ask.
If people are interested, we can discuss how to best move forward and how people want to be involved. I've never done anything like this before and am very interested in how people think we can best collect ratings for the many (many!) unrated archetypes.
If it isn't worth pursuing, at the very least I can provide you with an updated version of the list with all archetypes, links to the pfsrd and uniform layout.
Regardless, here's what I have so far:
LINK
Cheers and thanks for any feedback.
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Hopefully, this link works. Google Drive addresses NEVER WORK unless you link it.
You almost had it; you needed to take out the extra space in the URL that the forum added. This should be the correct url (crosses fingers that the forums don't screw it up).
Anyways, H Yland seems to have done a pretty good job with the formatting. The table of contents and linking looks great. You don't need system mastery to do presentation well :-)
Thank you Lazaryus: original post now edited with working link. Double thanks to you Dasrak for your link fix and your original work on the ratings themselves.
Hi All,
I had a burst of energy and made extensive edits. I'd say 80% of the archetypes have links to the SRD and the general layout is coming together.
The document is huge, over 150 pages. I haven't counted, but I'm not convinced we have ratings for even half of all the archetypes.
At this point I'd love help with general editing and to start getting people's ratings. If you're interested, please respond here.
I can't exactly make any big commitments, but I'll definitely chip in here or there. Just looking over the guide, it appears you don't have some of my ratings for a few archetypes, so that's a few more archetypes rated.
I'll get a start on some of the oustanding alchemist archetypes (no better place to start than the top of the list, after all ;-) but I probably won't have a time to sit down in earnest until the weekend.
Aquachemist
Power: 0
Versatility: 0
This archetype allows the alchemist to function underwater virtually at no penalty, at the cost of having highly ineffective bombs when not underwater. This archetype will only ever be useful in very specific kinds of campaigns.
Dragonblood Chymist
Power: -1
Versatility: 0
While the modification to the bombs and mutagen is incredibly flavorful, it is unfortunately a strict downgrade in power. While the tradeoff isn't too bad at lower levels, the inability to take further discoveries to improve your mutagen leaves it incredibly weak at higher levels.
Concocter
Power: -1
Versatility: -1
This archetype simply does not function. The Mutagenic Mixology class feature creates concoctions that only last for 24 hours, but the crafting time still uses the normal potion creation rules which means they take one full day of work to create. This means that you need a day of downtime prior to every adventuring day to use this class feature, and if you don't end up using it then you lose all the money you spent preparing it.
The Extracting Mixology class feature is completely pointless. It allows you to mix two potions together so you can drink them at once, but the mixture only lasts 2 rounds before going inert so you can't prepare it ahead of time and the mixing process takes as long as it would have taken to have just drank them individually. Also they have a chance to fail.
This archetype doesn't actually sacrifice too much (just a few discoveries) so it's not as deleterious as some other archetypes, but it offers nothing of value.
Crimson Chymist
Power: +1
Versatility: 0
A somewhat odd archetype, the Crimson Chymist is locked into a dexterity-based mutagen while being strongly routed towards the feral mutagen path. Its Arms of the God discovery stacks with feral mutagen as written, giving a total of four claw attacks, but at the cost of forcing you to be unarmored (including bracers of armor). This would be challenging to build, but the sheer number of natural attacks makes it very appealing.
Cruorchymist
Power: -1
Versatility: -1
While not the worst archetype in existence, it's entirely outclassed by the Homunculist Alchemist which does exactly the same except better and with fewer tradeoffs.
Eldritch Poisoner
Power: +1
Versatility: +0
Trading away bombs for the ability to spontaneously create poisons, this is an interesting archetype for those who want to use poisons but aren't a fan of their frankly ludicrous prices. It also gains half-progression sneak attack, which fits nicely with the concept. You do need to buy back mutagen with a discovery, but it's a small price to pay.
Energist
Power: 0
Versatility: 0
This archetype basically turns bombs into a cleric's channel, giving you the choice between healing the living or damaging the undead. Undead alchemists may appreciate the negative bomb options to harm the living and heal undead, although they take an arbitrary damage nerf so it's not quite as strong an option for them. Overall this is an interesting archetype with evenly-balanced tradeoffs.
Thanks, Dasrak. All of your ratings have been added. If you'd like, I can PM you a link with editing rights.
I am considering pulling material from the various class guides (many of them have archetype guides) but haven't decided how to best do so.
More to come...
You should ask permission before using someone else's work, even if it's freely available material like guides. Setting aside copyright and legal issues, it's just the courteous thing to do. In the case of this thread there's an implicit understanding that everyone who wrote here is contributing to this guide. For people who wrote their guides elsewhere, you want to ask permission first.
And sure, if you'd like to send me permission I'll help out. As I said earlier I can't make significant commitments right now, but I will help out here or there.
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Here's the ten Shifter archetypes, with those you might consider for dips marked as such.
The Weretouched Shifter gets an honorary mention for being so extremely frontloaded that the designer basically begs you to multiclass.
Adaptive Shifter
Power: +1
Versatility: +2
This is what the shifter class should have been. Mix and match with your Reactive Aspects, and add them to your Wild Shape to actually play as something deserving the name shifter.
Elementalist Shifter
Power: 0
Versatility: -2
Every 15th level Elementalist will have the exact same class features, as the only choice you have is to decide in which order you want to take your four aspects.
Fiendflesh Shifter
Power: 0
Versatility: -2
Gain a fiendish aspect, lose all other. Must be evil.
Leafshifter [Dip]
Power: 0
Versatility: 0
Switch out your minor aspects for plant-themed abilities and gain two Slam attacks instead of Shifter's Claws. If you're dipping for natural attacks, it's pretty good.
Oozemorph
Power: -1
Versatility: -1
No aspects, but you do get Beast Shape at level 8. Your base form is also now a literal ooze, so there's that.
Rageshaper [Dip]
Power: -2
Versatility: -2
You gain the ability to become really angry and big for a number of rounds per day equal to your level. It also requires a full-round action to activate, destroys your equipment, provokes Attack of Opportunities, and you must make a will save to end the condition.
The will save's DC scales better than your own will save, and if you keep failing it you might attack your allies and yourself.
It does give you two Slam attacks, though. So it's either this or Leafshifter if you want more natural attacks as a level one dip.
Style Shifter [Dip]
Power: 0
Versatility: 0
It could just as easily have been a monk archetype, but it does fit the shifter class. You give up Aspects for 'Style Aspects', which are bound to the style feats they correspond to.
This archetype is basically just improving certain style feats, while also throwing the normal druid's Wild Shape at you. Thankfully, it does give you some bonus feats.
I might consider dipping one level of Style Shifter to gain the Style Aspects of the Monkey or Snake. Especially Snake, since easy ways to inflict the flat-footed condition are pretty rare.
Verdant Shifter
Power: -2
Versatility: -2
You lose all shifter Aspects, and your new Wild Shape functions for rounds per day instead of hours.
Weretouched Shifter [Dip]
Power: -1 (Dip: +2)
Versatility: -2
So this archetype really stands out for a lot of reasons.
Instead of gaining multiple Aspects you're forced to choose one, giving up on all Aspect-related class features to gain DR/Silver and a hybrid form of Wild Shaping. As an added bonus, the archetype makes your capstone ability worthless and you're getting nothing in return.
There's no incentive to stay in the class after level four, as your scaling DR will become obsolete in higher levels and all high-level class features were based around your aspects.
It is however an amazing four level dip. The Hybrid form allows you to stay humanoid while still benefiting from your chosen major form and Shifter Claws. So your armor won't meld into your body, you can still activate magic items, and you get the option to wield manufactured weapons.
If you want pounce and five natural attacks on your full-plate martial, this is for you.
Wild Effigy
Power: +1
Versatility: 0
You're trading away most of your non-offensive class features for more defense and a way to pierce DR. Unfortunately you're losing out on Defensive Instinct, but Damage Reduction and Fortification should be a worthwhile trade-off.
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Noticed there was no evaluation of the Brawler archetypes, so here goes.
The Strangler gets a dishonorable mention for being so thoughtlessly thrown together.
Power: 0
Versatility: 0
Your AC Bonus and Maneuver Training class features now function like the Ranger's Favored Enemy ability, albeit at twice the normal bonus.
Bouncer
Power: -1
Versatility: -1
It's some kind of NPC archetype for bar fights.
Constructed Pugilist [Dip]
Power: -1
Versatility: -1
You get a constructed limb instead of Martial Flexibility, and may choose between a couple of upgrades at the levels your Flexibility would improve. Unfortunately, no combination of these upgrades can match the power the normal flexibility would give you.
Limb Extender and Grapnel Arm are however two interesting choices for dips, as the first gives you reach with one arm and the second allows you to grapple targets at range.
Exemplar
Power: 0
Versatility: +1
Give up your unarmed prowess for bardic performances and the Cavalier's Tactician ability. If you weren't going to fight unarmed, this is probably a good choice for you.
Feral Striker
Power: -1
Versatility: -1
Getting the Shifter's (minor) Aspects class feature in place of Martial Flexibility isn't a good trade. You'll mostly end up with a couple enhancement bonuses to physical stats that doesn't stack with your belt.
Hinyasi
Power: +1
Versatility: 0
If you were planning on fighting with improvised weapons, it won't hurt to take this archetype. The free-action maneuver is also nice, as the list includes maneuvers that usually require a standard action.
Living Avalanche
Power: -1
Versatility: 0
Don't bother. It's some kind of weird archetype that gives minor benefits to both Bull Rush and Overrun, while forcing you to take the Improved Maneuver feats for both.
Mutagenic Mauler [Dip]
Power: 0
Versatility: -1
Martial Flexibility for Mutagen. If you really don't want to bother with Flexibility, this might be a choice for you.
Also probably the only way to get the Mutagen ability with a level 1 full-BAB dip.
Shield Champion
Power: 0
Versatility: +1
If you're gonna use a shield, this is pretty much a straight upgrade. It gives you a couple bonus feats and allows for ranged attacks with the Returning Shield ability.
Snakebite Striker [Dip]
Power: 0
Versatility: -1
Sneak Attack, at a pretty alright progression up until level 12. The Opportunist ability is pretty nice, but you do lose Martial Flexibility from this archetype.
This is probably the dip of choice for most Rogues: Flurry, Full-BAB, and no lost SA progression.
Steel-Breaker
Power: +1
Versatility: 0
If your Wisdom score is decent, I'd definitely take this archetype as a straight upgrade to the base class. Your Maneuver Training becomes focused on Sunder and Disarm, but Exploit Weakness should still be worth it.
Strangler
Power: -2
Versatility: -1
The Strangler is an archetype for grapplers. It removes the penalties that are annoying for a dexterity-based grappler, but the rest of the abilities are pretty lackluster.
Since it also trades away the Unarmed Strike class feature, you'll have to take the IUS feat yourself if you want to qualify for Improved Grapple. Also, both Brawler's Strike and Close Weapon Mastery end up being redundant due to losing Unarmed Strike.
Turfer
Power: 0
Versatility: 0
Gain Favored Terrains, lose nothing too valuable.
Venomfist
Power: 0
Versatility: +1
Poison fists. Most enemies will probably shrug off the fortitude save, but you get a long list of available conditions to inflict, and it costs you neither gold or actions to use.
Verdant Grappler
Power: 0
Versatility: 0
If you were gonna grapple, this archetype will aid you with some essentials. Like the whole "where do I keep the rope?" dilemma.
Wild Child
Power: -1
Versatility: +1
You trade out all your bonus combat feats for a full progression Animal Companion. The upside is that you can choose from the whole Druid list, the downside is that you've gimped your own character.
You're better off just playing a Hunter if you wanted a martial class with an Animal Companion.
Winding Path Renegade
Power: -1
Versatility: 0
Okay, if you're one of the people who would absolutely have taken Deflect Arrows and really want Improved Evasion, this might not be a total downgrade for you.
I changed my mind about one of the Shifter archetypes, after realizing it's even worse than I thought.
Elementalist Shifter
Power: -2
Versatility: -2
It's such a strange situation where you're better off just staying in your base form and using Elemental Strike, becoming some kind of half-progression elemental Rogue without Rogue Talents.
If that sounds fun to you, just use a Battle Poi with a Rogue instead.
***
Also, it seems as if I've missed two of the Brawler archetypes.
Battle Dancer [Dip]
Power: 0
Versatility: +1
Rolling Flurry is a very solid ability. It's basically Circling Mongoose without provoking and being focused on one target, giving you impressive mobility as your number of attacks begin to add up.
I'd take Lunge as soon as possible, for the ability to easily jump between foes.
Strong-Side Boxer
Power: 0
Versatility: 0
Dip your hand in glass, and deal bleed damage. Could have been an interesting archetype, but it doesn't really change anything important.
If you're dipping two levels for Flurry, you could take this archetype for one extra Natural armor.
Here's the updated Shifter/Brawler archetypes, and the Swashbuckler.
Power: +1
Versatility: +2
This is what the shifter class should have been. Mix and match with your Reactive Aspects, and add them to your Wild Shape to actually play as something deserving the name shifter.
Elementalist Shifter
Power: -2
Versatility: -2
It's such a strange situation where you're better off just staying in your base form and using Elemental Strike, becoming some kind of half-progression elemental Rogue without Rogue Talents.
If that sounds fun to you, just play a rogue wielding a Battle Poi.
There's also the the annoying conclusion that every 15th level Elementalist will have the exact same class features, as the only choice you have is to decide in which order you want to take your four aspects.
Fiendflesh Shifter
Power: 0
Versatility: -2
Gain a fiendish aspect, lose all other. Must be evil.
Leafshifter [Dip]
Power: 0
Versatility: 0
Switch out your minor aspects for plant-themed abilities and gain two Slam attacks instead of Shifter's Claws. If you're dipping for natural attacks, it's pretty good.
Oozemorph
Power: -2
Versatility: -1
No aspects, but you do get Beast Shape at level 8. Your base form is now a literal ooze, so there's that.
Also, this is one of few rare situations where your character can actually become weaker by leveling up, since a one-level dip into this archetype would ruin most builds.
Rageshaper [Dip]
Power: -2
Versatility: -2
You gain the ability to become really angry and big for a number of rounds per day equal to your level. It also requires a full-round action to activate, destroys your equipment, provokes Attack of Opportunities, and you must make a will save to end the condition.
The will save's DC scales better than your own will save, and if you keep failing it you might attack your allies and yourself.
It does give you two Slam attacks, though. So it's either this or Leafshifter if you want more natural attacks as a level one dip.
Style Shifter [Dip]
Power: 0
Versatility: +1
It could just as easily have been a monk archetype, but it does fit the shifter class. You give up Aspects for 'Style Aspects', which are bound to the style feats they correspond to.
This archetype is basically just improving certain style feats, while also throwing the normal druid's Wild Shape at you. Thankfully, it does give you some bonus feats.
I might consider dipping one level of Style Shifter to gain the Style Aspects of the Monkey or Snake. Especially Snake, since easy ways to inflict the flat-footed condition are pretty rare.
Verdant Shifter
Power: -2
Versatility: -2
You lose all shifter Aspects, and your new Wild Shape functions for rounds per day instead of hours.
Weretouched Shifter [Dip]
Power: -1
Versatility: -2
So this archetype really stands out for a lot of reasons.
Instead of gaining multiple Aspects you're forced to choose one, giving up on all Aspect-related class features to gain DR/Silver and a hybrid form of Wild Shaping. As an added bonus, the archetype makes your capstone ability worthless and you're getting nothing in return.
There's no incentive to stay in the class after level four, as your scaling DR will become obsolete in higher levels and all high-level class features were based around your aspects.
It is however an amazing four level dip. The Hybrid form allows you to stay humanoid while still benefiting from your chosen major form and Shifter Claws. So your armor won't meld into your body, you can still activate magic items, and you get the option to wield manufactured weapons.
If you want pounce and five natural attacks on your full-plate martial, this is for you.
Wild Effigy
Power: +1
Versatility: 0
You're trading away most of your non-offensive class features for more defense and a way to pierce DR. Unfortunately you're losing out on Defensive Instinct, but Damage Reduction and Fortification should be a worthwhile trade-off.
***
The Shifter archetypes are really a mine-field. If you're not careful you'll play a worse version of an already weak class.
Power: 0
Versatility: +1
Rolling Flurry is a very solid ability. It's basically Circling Mongoose without provoking and being focused on one target, giving you impressive mobility as your number of attacks begin to add up.
I'd take Lunge as soon as possible, for the ability to easily jump between foes.
Beast-Wrestler
Power: 0
Versatility: 0
Your AC Bonus and Maneuver Training class features now function like the Ranger's Favored Enemy ability, albeit at twice the normal bonus.
Bouncer
Power: -1
Versatility: -1
It's some kind of NPC archetype for bar fights.
Constructed Pugilist [Dip]
Power: -1
Versatility: -1
You get a constructed limb instead of Martial Flexibility, and may choose between a couple of upgrades at the levels your Flexibility would improve. Unfortunately, no combination of these upgrades can match the power the normal flexibility would give you.
Limb Extender and Grapnel Arm are however two interesting choices for dips, as the first gives you reach with one arm and the second allows you to grapple targets at range.
Exemplar
Power: 0
Versatility: +1
Give up your unarmed prowess for bardic performances and the Cavalier's Tactician ability. If you weren't going to fight unarmed, this is probably a good choice for you.
Feral Striker
Power: -1
Versatility: -1
Getting the Shifter's (minor) Aspects class feature in place of Martial Flexibility isn't a good trade. You'll mostly end up with a couple enhancement bonuses to physical stats that doesn't stack with your belt.
Hinyasi
Power: +1
Versatility: 0
If you were planning on fighting with improvised weapons, it won't hurt to take this archetype. The free-action maneuver is also nice, as the list includes maneuvers that usually require a standard action.
Living Avalanche
Power: -1
Versatility: 0
Don't bother. It's some kind of weird archetype that gives minor benefits to both Bull Rush and Overrun, while forcing you to take the Improved Maneuver feats for both.
Mutagenic Mauler [Dip]
Power: 0
Versatility: -1
Martial Flexibility for Mutagen. If you really don't want to bother with Flexibility, this might be a choice for you.
Also probably the only way to get the Mutagen ability with a level 1 full-BAB dip.
Shield Champion
Power: 0
Versatility: +1
If you're gonna use a shield, this is pretty much a straight upgrade. It gives you a couple bonus feats and allows for ranged attacks with the Returning Shield ability.
Snakebite Striker [Dip]
Power: 0
Versatility: -1
Sneak Attack, at a pretty alright progression up until level 12. The Opportunist ability is pretty nice, but you do lose Martial Flexibility from this archetype.
This is probably the dip of choice for most Rogues: Flurry, Full-BAB, and no lost SA progression.
Steel-Breaker
Power: +1
Versatility: 0
If your Wisdom score is decent, I'd definitely take this archetype as a straight upgrade to the base class. Your Maneuver Training becomes focused on Sunder and Disarm, but Exploit Weakness should still be worth it.
Strangler
Power: -2
Versatility: -1
The Strangler is an archetype for grapplers. It removes the penalties that are annoying for a dexterity-based grappler, but the rest of the abilities are pretty lackluster.
Since it also trades away the Unarmed Strike class feature, you'll have to take the IUS feat yourself if you want to qualify for Improved Grapple. Also, both Brawler's Strike and Close Weapon Mastery end up being redundant due to losing Unarmed Strike.
Strong-Side Boxer
Power: 0
Versatility: 0
Dip your hand in glass, and deal bleed damage. Could have been an interesting archetype, but it doesn't really change anything important.
If you're dipping two levels for Flurry, you could take this archetype for one extra Natural armor.
Turfer
Power: 0
Versatility: 0
Gain Favored Terrains, lose nothing too valuable.
Venomfist
Power: 0
Versatility: +1
Poison fists. Most enemies will probably shrug off the fortitude save, but you get a long list of available conditions to inflict, and it costs you neither gold or actions to use.
Verdant Grappler
Power: 0
Versatility: 0
If you were gonna grapple, this archetype will aid you with some essentials. Like the whole "where do I keep the rope?" dilemma.
Wild Child
Power: -1
Versatility: +1
You trade out all your bonus combat feats for a full progression Animal Companion. The upside is that you can choose from the whole Druid list, the downside is that you've gimped your own character.
You're better off just playing a Hunter if you wanted a martial class with an Animal Companion.
Winding Path Renegade
Power: -1
Versatility: 0
Okay, if you're one of the people who would absolutely have taken Deflect Arrows and really want Improved Evasion, this might not be a total downgrade for you.
***
As a Brawler the Flurry is your bread and butter, and very few archetypes actually dares to affect such a vital part of the class. Strangler fails spectacularly, while the Battle Dancer introduces a new mechanic to it.
Arrow Champion [Dip]
Power: -1
Versatility: +1
This archetype is for the switch-hitter, and the Swift Switch ability really helps you achieve that. It does give up some melee prowess, so you will be weaker in melee than the vanilla Swashbuckler.
The Retaliation ability could however be very strong if you're a crit-fisher, as it requires no action to use and gives you a free attack.
Azatariel
Power: -2
Versatility: +1
You lose both Precise Strike and your Bonus Feats, which really hurts your damage. While you do get some interesting abilities, such as pseudo-pounce and ways to make enemies attack each other, it's probably not worth it.
Maybe dip for three levels if you want Whimsical Riposte, but more than that is a waste.
Courser
Power: -1
Versatility: 0
You get the Spring Attack feat and know how to run on vertical walls. Unfortunately you lose Opportune Parry and Riposte.
Daring Infiltrator
Power: 0
Versatility: 0
Get some bonuses to bluff, lose some combat stuff and charmed life. The Silence is Golden ability could find some use, if you want to shut up opponents.
Dashing Thief
Power: +1
Versatility: +1
You gain access to (Advanced) Rogue Talents in place of your combat feats, and gain a way to inflict the dazing condition early on. Pretty fun stuff.
I'd keep the 'Combat Trick' and 'Stalker Talent' Rogue Talents in mind.
Flying Blade
Power: 0
Versatility: +1
While you must use a Starknife or Dagger, you gain the benefit of using them just as competently in melee or at ranged. Disruptive Counter is also quite good, as it's an attack that doesn't cost an action.
Guiding Blade
Power: 0
Versatility: +1
It's a support archetype. You can use panache to give allies teamwork feats, but lose some important deeds.
It's more useful than the Cavalier's Tactician ability since its only real limitation is Panache, and the killing blows of your allies now count to replenish your pool.
It becomes rather good at level 7 when it is a swift action to give out teamwork feats.
Inspired Blade
Power: +1
Versatility: 0
If you favor rapiers and Intelligence, then check out the Inspired Blade. Dodging Panache and Charmed Life are still based on Charisma though, which prevents you from dumping it. You do get a free Weapon Focus with the rapier though, so it is basically an upgrade.
Mouser
Power: 0
Versatility: +1
Move into an enemy's space as an immediate action! Best used on small characters.
Musketeer
Power: 0
Versatility: 0
It doesn't actually help you to make the Swashbuckler a viable class for using firearms, but it also doesn't hinder you from just making a normal melee build.
Mysterious Avenger
Power: -1
Versatility: 0
I guess if you really want to use a Whip this could be for you.
Noble Fencer
Power: 0
Versatility: +1
You can now use your Derring-Do deed for social skills, and at level 11 you're immune to the intimidate skill.
Okayo Corsair
Power: +1
Versatility: +1
You get Dimension Door, some Monk abilities (extra attack as a swift action), and the ability to use Charisma in place of Wisdom for combat feats. If you wonder what your monk weapon group alternatives are, I'd take the Urumi for 18-20 crit.
Picaroon
Power: -2
Versatility: 0
If you're looking for Gun-n-Sword, this isn't it. The archetype fails to tackle the biggest problems, which is reloading and all the Attack of Opportunities Gun-n-Sword provokes.
Since it also doesn't change the Precise Strike deed, you won't benefit from it since you're holding a gun in your hand that needs to be free.
Rondelero Swashbuckler
Power: -1
Versatility: 0
So this archetype wants you to fight with a Falcata and Buckler, but neither are great choices for the Swashbuckler (ooooh... now I see). You want a 18-20 crit range for regaining Panache, and why hit someone with a buckler when the Falcata deals more damage?
Rostland Bravo
Power: 0
Versatility: 0
Again, you want a weapon with a 18-20 crit range. The only thing that keeps this archetype at 0/0 is the fact that the Dragon's Rage ability doesn't cost an action. Before level 11 it's weaker thanks to the lowered crit range.
Shackles Corsair
Power: -1
Versatility: 0
You lose Nimble for some Intimidate buffs.
Veiled Blade
Power: -1
Versatility: 0
As the name suggests, you are now better at hiding your weapon.
Whirling Dervish
Power: +1
Versatility: 0
You save one feat slot from Slashing Grace if you were gonna use a scimitar, and get some new deeds.
Wildstrider
Power: 0
Versatility: 0
Do you have an irrational fear of difficult terrain? If you answered yes, look no further.
***
The class itself is an excellent one-level dip, so every archetype that doesn't switch out Opportune Parry and Riposte/Dodging Panache should be considered for dips.
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You're making me look bad, Wonderstell :-P
Okay, let's see if I can get a little more progress on the outstanding Alchemist archetypes
Energy Scientist
Power: -1
Versatility: 0
This archetype suffers a reduced number of extracts per day for no particular reason. The other abilities are interesting tradeoffs with pros and cons, and this one huge downside out of nowhere tilts that balance strongly negative.
Fermenter
Power: 0
Versatility: 0
This charming archetype is all about throwing bombs while drunk or high, and even if the math ends up slightly underwhelming it delivers enough goodies on the side to make up for that.
Fey World Innovator
Power: -1
Versatility: 0
This archetype is all over the map, with a mix of interesting benefits, unreliable "roulette" effects, and some numbers that clearly weren't vetted ("improving" bomb damage dice from 1d6 to 1d8-1 literally does nothing, as both average 3.5 damage per die). Overall, the reduced number of bombs per day overshadows the benefits and makes it a net negative archetype.
Grenadier: PFS Field Guide
The two versions of the Grenadier are identical. The text is phrased a little more clearly in the MC version, but they both work exactly the same way and they should not be listed separately.
Gun Chemist
Power: 0
Versatility: 0
One of those rare firearm-related archetypes that actually functions effectively, the Gun Chemist is a great option for those looking to wield a firearm. With plenty of bonus feats and multiple ways of applying their intelligence bonus to firearm damage, this archetype delivers what all firearm users need.
Herbalist
Power: 0
Versatility: +2
A wisdom-based alchemist that can steal spells off the druid list, the Herbalist makes for a very interesting melee-focused alchemist. His seedpods are weaker than bombs, being single-target rather than area of effect and not adding his wisdom modifier to damage, but gain interesting secondary effects that keep them from being useless. Overall an interesting archetype.
Horticulturalist
Power: -1
Versatility: +1
The loss of mutagen (which can't be bought back) and the weakening of bombs severely hurts this archetype, but it does gain the ability to summon plant monster as well as gain a familiar, which are very nice benefits.
Ice Chemist
Power: 0
Versatility: 0
This archetype swaps out fire damage for ice damage, while also improving her poison resistance to cold resistance. It's a very slight upgrade, and a solid way to get an icy flavor if you're going for that.
Also it looks like the archetypes from this post haven't been added yet.
Thank you, everyone!
Dasrak: I completely agree about getting permissions to use any content. I won't be moving forward with that yet, but if I do I'll make sure to get permission first.
Wonderstell: Thanks so much! I'll work to incorporate all of your write ups soon.
Life/work are a bit hectic right now, but I'll keep on this.
Cheers,
Hyland
I totally get the life/work being hectic thing. I did some formatting and additions on the alchemist section. There should be just four more in total.
I checked the link.
Saw that none of the druid archetypes had been addressed.
Felt brief excitement! I've been playing/theory crafting multiple druids lately, and covering a wide range of archetypes! I could be useful!
Got to Ape Shaman before remembering just how disgustingly bad many of the druid options are. Lost focus. Took a break.
I still intend to keep writing up brief ratings for all of them, but some are just so painful to even be reminded of their existence. For example, the Ape Shaman (along with most of the other "animal-type" archetype options) gets wild shape 2 levels later, and it functions as if it were 2 levels lower, except for animals of X type which instead are treated as 2 levels higher. There ARE no huge "ape" options for wild shape. None. The effective +2 has literally no effect, at all, ever, no matter how creative you get. If you want an archetype that solely takes the vanilla class abilities, and then nerfs/restricts them all with no gain of any sort, this (and fully half of the druid archetypes) are the place to look. It's like they were written by someone who had never heard of the game previously, and as they were being given the overview, "Ok, Pathfinder is an RPG, and the druid can change shape into animals..." the author interrupted with, "Shut up, SHUT UP I HAVE AN IDEA, I'll make one that can turn in to apes!" and then put his hands over his ears and hummed loudly when the project leader tried to explain that druids can already become apes. Fast forward to today, and I'm still trying to recover mentally and emotionally from the steaming pile of words that just assaulted my senses.
That's dumb but the ape shaman gets other changes and they're mostly positive if sometimes minor. Totem transformation is more useful than woodland stride. I can't imagine why you'd want to summon primates from a mechanics perspective rather than a thematic one, but a standard action summoned ape is often going to be more useful than a better summon which takes 1 round to cast and act. The different domains open up options, notably rage.
It's not great, but there are worse archetypes out there. Brace yourself AWBattles.
That's dumb but the ape shaman gets other changes and they're mostly positive if sometimes minor. Totem transformation is more useful than woodland stride. I can't imagine why you'd want to summon primates from a mechanics perspective rather than a thematic one, but a standard action summoned ape is often going to be more useful than a better summon which takes 1 round to cast and act. The different domains open up options, notably rage.
It's not great, but there are worse archetypes out there. Brace yourself AWBattles.
Yeah. Having taken a second to calm down, it’s less offensive than I initially felt. I first looked at these archetypes when I wanted to play a octopus/squid type Druid. Saw Kraken Caller, likes it, but it wasn’t what I had in mind. Still wanted aquatic though, so I looked at Shark Shaman. Saw that wild shape came on board late, but figured “well, for a +2 to my favored creatures...oh. That’s an entirely irrelevant ‘bonus’ after level 7.” Then I looked at the other shamans and saw that was a common theme. It just felt like lazy design, where someone was told that had to make 10 archetypes in 2 hours :-P. It would be a pretty cool bonus if wild shaping into animals could benefit past level 8, but it doesn’t. And the totem transformations are really just weak wild shapes that become obsolete as soon as wildshape is available, so I agree they replace a meh ability, but by level 8 I’d rather just have woodland stride again. Standard summons are nothing to sneeze at, although the options are pretty poor, since there are only two summonable ape options, and they’re at SNA 3 and 4, so the ability to add templates doesn’t really fill in many gaps. I mostly get upset because it feels like, even as an Ape Shaman, I’d spend a lot of my time not in Ape form. The biggest actual gain from the archetype would be the bonus feats at 9, 13, and 17, which become options very late, still require prereqs, etc.
Personally, I think the archetype would be better done as:
Domains (roughly stay the same)
Wildshape At level 4, standard progression of beast shapes, with no elemental/plant/magical beast options. At level 8 you can add the giant template to any wildshaped primate. At level 10 you gain the benefits of improved grapple when wildshaped as an ape. At 12, improved bull rush when wildshaped as an ape. At 14 you get greater grapple, 16 greater bull rush. At 18 you get awesome blow. It encourages you to use apeshape, but still gives the option to use a weaker form when needed for versatility (which is what I assume the original intention was for the archetype).
Lose timeless body, poison immunity, and thousand faces, wildshape uses are reduced to one use every four levels, further highlighting that balance of “I want to choose something that has a fly speed to get past this obstacle, but I also want to be able to hulk out in a fight and I can’t easily do both all the time”. Standard action summons for primates and adding templates for increased spell level is probably fine, but no temporary hp bonus.
I’m pretty tired, so maybe this all isn’t as balanced as I’m imagining, but an archetype like this should be trading away versatility (which is a mechanical advantage of the vanilla Druid) for specializing in one flavorful choice. In my mind, this would maybe compete in a similar slot as Goliath Druid for effectiveness and function, but with the gorilla loving flavor. As it is, you trade function for flavor, and then gain a couple feats that are somewhat primate related, but mostly are just from the blander side of the feat list.
With respect to permission for use of content, it's fine to use content that I put in a while back -- although at some point (not now) I should go back through and update for new material.
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There's just so many rogue archetypes. Why is there so many rogue archetypes?
Power: 0
Versatility: 0
You lose Trapfinding/Trap Sense for the ability to reroll some physical skills, but since the reroll is made with a -5 penalty it won't help you much.
Agitator
Power: -1
Versatility: 0
You gain the Vigilante's Renown ability, and some supernatural abilities which are based on your charisma. Unfortunately this costs you rogue talents, and your DC won't ever be respectable.
Bandit
Power: -1
Versatility: 0
Do note that you still can't take a full-round action in the surprise round with this archetype.
Burglar
Power: -1
Versatility: +1
The archetype makes you better at stealth and disarming traps at the cost of Uncanny Dodge. Might be worth it if you know you'll be disarming a ridiculous amount of traps.
Carnivalist
Power: -2
Versatility: +1
You gain a sneaky familiar and some bardic performances. You pay for that by getting Sneak Attack at half the normal progression, and losing your first three Rogue Talents.
Chameleon
Power: 0
Versatility: 0
You're now better at using Stealth.
Charlatan [Dip]
Power: 0
Versatility: +1
You gain the Rumormonger advanced talent seven levels early.
Consigliere
Power: -1
Versatility: +1
You get a couple buffs to diplomacy early on, then beginning at level 10 you can give teamwork feats to allies. Unfortunately it's once per day, maxing out at thrice at level 18.
Construct Saboteur
Power: +1
Versatility: 0
If you're gonna fight a lot of constructs, you might as well take this archetype.
Counterfeit Mage
Power: 0
Versatility: 0
You become better at using wands.
Cutpurse [Dip]
Power: 0
Versatility: +1
Actually a really good archetype if you want to be a pickpocket. The Stab and Grab ability is phenomenal because it allows you to use Sleight of Hand during combat, which means you can steal someone's necklace (or component pouch) with a DC 20 check instead of a Steal maneuver vs their impossible CMD.
Dark Lurker
Power: -1
Versatility: +1
While it does hurt to lose all those Rogue Talents, you gain the ability to deal precision damage to foes with Total Concealment. Do note that it doesn't specify sneak attack, so there's probably some multiclass shenanigans to be done here.
Desert Raider
Power: 0
Versatility: +1
You get a limited version of Hellcat Stealth at level two, and a scaling bonus on perception checks to avoiding becoming surprised.
Discretion Specialist
Power: -1
Versatility: +1
You can tamper with people's memories for a short duration, cover up corpses, and (hopefully) prevent people from teleporting away.
The last ability would be sweet, if it wasn't for the low DC of the concentration check they're forced to make.
Dreamthief
Power: -2
Versatility: +1
Nope. Becoming half of a phantom is not worth losing all your Sneak Attack.
Driver
Power: 0
Versatility: -1
You're better at driving vehicles.
Earthshadow
Power: -1
Versatility: +1
You get some cool spell-like abilities going with the whole stone-theme. The best part is that the archetype is wisdom-based, so you can shore up your poor will save.
Eldritch Scoundrel
Power: 0
Versatility: +2
You get the Magus's spell progression, but Sneak Attack and Rogue Talents at half progression. You don't get armor proficiency or Spell Combat either, so it might be hard to deal as much damage.
Do keep the Sense vitals spells in mind, as it will bump your SA up to normal.
Escapologist
Power: -1
Versatility: +1
You gain the ability to use Escape Artist in place of reflex saves, AC and to remove mind-affecting effects.
It will probably be useful more than once or twice, but requires an opportunity cost to activate.
False Medium
Power: 0
Versatility: 0
You get some cantrips in place of your Trapfinding, Trap Sense and a rogue talent. The scaling bonus to Bluff is nice, however.
Guerrilla [Dip]
Power: -1/+2
Versatility: +1
You lose Evasion and Improved Uncanny Dodge, which will hurt you sooner or later.
The reason why the Guerrilla is denoted as -1/+2 in Power is because the Cover of Night ability gained at level two can either be useful or amazing.
Cover of Night allows you to upgrade Concealment to Total Concealment, which is basically running around with Greater Invisibility if you have a reliable way to trigger it.
I'd recommend the Palelight Torch and a wand of Blur for minute/level duration on Total Concealment.
Guild Agent
Power: -1
Versatility: +1
You give up defensive abilities for some information gathering abilities and followers. You are bound to one 'base of operations', which means that you'd never take this archetype unless you'll spend the whole campaign in the same city.
Gun Smuggler
Power: -1
Versatility: 0
The Stolen Shots ability should have been what saved the archetype, but as it is there's no reason to take this archetype even if you want to use a gun.
Heister
Power: -2
Versatility: +1
Whew. You do get HiPS at level eight in urban/underground terrain, but the other abilities are just bad.
Investigator
Power: 0
Versatility: 0
You now roll twice on Diplomacy checks to gather information. That's it.
Irrigator
Power: -1
Versatility: 0
You basically get the Gang Up feat and the Assassins's Death Attack.
Kidnapper
Power: 0
Versatility: 0
Do you want to play a grappling rogue?
Knife Master
Power: +1
Versatility: 0
Your Sneak Attack is now d8's instead of d6's, although your choice of weapons is more limited.
Liberator
Power: -1
Versatility: 0
You don't want to lose Uncanny Dodge for literally one feat.
Makeshift Scrapper
Power: 0
Versatility: 0
Could be useful if you want to fight with improvised weapons. I'd rather buy Gloves of Improvised Might instead, though.
Master of Disguise
Power: 0
Versatility: 0
You become better at mundane disguises.
Nameless Shadow
Power: -2
Versatility: +1
The Social Talents you gain are excellent for infiltration, while the Face in the Crowd ability is pretty useful.
However, you lose way too many Rogue Talents for this to be worth it.
Needler
Power: -1
Versatility: 0
While you do get the ability to apply a poison as a swift action, it will seldom be useful since you'll first need the poison in hand before you can apply it.
Your choice of poison is broadened, but you should probably just take the Poisoner archetype instead for the superior ability.
Phantom Thief
Power: -2
Versatility: +2
You lose your Sneak Attack. All of it.
Your Skill Unlocks does however increase 50% faster than normal, and you can take Combat Trick and the Minor/Major Magic rogue talents as many times as you want.
Pirate
Power: 0
Versatility: 0
If you're gonna spend a lot of time on a boat, the Swinging Reposition ability could find some use. You do get a scaling bonus to will saves against mind-affecting and fear effects, so it might be worth it just for that.
Planar Sneak
Power: -1
Versatility: +1
You can Sneak Attack elementals, and later all outsiders normally immune. Would make the Rogue a viable class in certain campaigns focused on such enemies.
Poisoner
Power: 0
Versatility: +1
You gain a very interesting ability to change the type (contact, ingested, etc) of poisons. Poisons are bad, yes, but there is no duration or limitation on this ability.
Rake
Power: 0
Versatility: 0
If you ever really need to make an enemy intimidated in combat, Rake will give you the means to do so.
Relic Raider
Power: -1
Versatility: +1
You can disable curses. Actually pretty cool.
River Rat
Power: 0
Versatility: 0
Get some bonuses to swim and on saves vs disease/poison.
Roof Runner
Power: 0
Versatility: 0
You get a limited version of Feather Fall that requires a skill check.
Rotdrinker
Power: -1
Versatility: 0
Such a quirky archetype.
You drink poison for combat bonuses, the catch being that they must be ingested. Good thing you can take both this and the Poisoner archetype.
Unfortunately, the bonus is capped at how many consecutive saves the poison requires. So that will be +2 for most of the time. You'll still have the temp HP though.
Might work great with the Drunken Brawler feat.
Sanctified Rogue
Power: -1
Versatility: 0
+1 to Will/Fortitude and once per day Augury.
Sapper
Power: -1
Versatility: 0
While the Destructive Dismantle ability may seem nice, do keep in mind that the HP/inch of most walls/safes will be far too much to handle.
Scavenger
Power: -1
Versatility: 0
Unless you're playing with robots and glitches, this archetype won't do anything.
Scout
Power: 0
Versatility: +1
You'll have an easier way to sneak-attack foes when you're moving during your turn.
Scroll Scoundrel
Power: -1
Versatility: 0
You could probably make use of Elusive Gambit through Panther Style, but most abilities aren't gonna help you much.
Seeker of the Lost
Power: -1
Versatility: 0
You're better at fighting underwater. But since you're not given any way to breathe underwater I'd just not fight underwater.
Shadow Rebel
Power: -1
Versatility: 0
Seems like some kind of courtly intrigue archetype, but you gain nothing special and lose Uncanny dodge.
Shadow Scion
Power: -1
Versatility: +1
Darkvision and some useful shadow Spell-Like abilities.
Shadow Walker
Power: 0
Versatility: +1
You gain Darkvision with your first level, and then some spell-like abilities based on illumination. One of those being Deeper Darkness which you're allowed to see through.
Sharper
Power: -2
Versatility: 0
You get the Steal maneuver feats and a way to reroll failed saves. But you give up far too many rogue talents for what it gives you.
Sly Saboteur
Power: -1
Versatility: +1
You can booby trap magic items, making the users take your sneak attack damage.
Smuggler
Power: -1
Versatility: 0
You're now a better smuggler.
Snoop
Power: -1
Versatility: +1
You gain access to some Investigator Talents and a limited form of Inspiration.
Sniper
Power: 0
Versatility: +1
Halving all range increment penalties is actually pretty good.
The Deadly Range ability will be something to help you until you can afford Sniper Goggles.
Spy
Power: 0
Versatility: 0
Bonus to bluff, and can handle poison without worry.
Survivalist
Power: 0
Versatility: 0
Good if you think you'll spend a lot of time outdoors and refuse to spend skill points on Survival.
Swashbuckler
Power: 0
Versatility: 0
May take the Combat Trick talent twice, and gain a scaling bonus on acrobatics checks and will saves against fear. It's pretty useful if you want to get your build online earlier.
Swindler
Power: -1
Versatility: 0
The Let Fate Decide ability has potential, but falls flat because of action economy. I'd rather see it being a swift action or that the bonus doubles.
Sylvan Trickster
Power: -1
Versatility: +1
Access to hexes in place of Rogue Talents should give you a lot more options both in and out of combat. The downside is that the DR you gain in place of your Uncanny Dodge is DR/Cold Iron, which means any enemy with a +2 weapon will pierce it.
Thug [Dip]
Power: +1
Versatility: 0
Okay, so anything not immune to fear can now be easily frightened. The Enforcer feat is a no-brainer if you can deal nonlethal, and Dazzling Display + Equipment trick: Cloak will easily result in AoE frighten.
Tidal Trickster
Power: -1
Versatility: +1
You gain a swim speed, and can damage certain water-based creatures that would be immune to Sneak Attack.
You do not gain the ability to breathe underwater, though.
Toxic Talon
Power: -1
Versatility: 0
You're now better at using poison with projectile weapons.
Trapsmith
Power: -1
Versatility: +1
You're better at not failing disarming traps, and you gain the hilarious ability to set magic traps against their creators.
Hello, Symbol of Death!
Underground Chemist
Power: -1
Versatility: +1
You can deal Sneak Attack damage with splash weapons, and gain access to some Alchemist Discoveries.
Vexing Dodger
Power: -1
Versatility: 0
The main problem is that the Limb-Climber ability is a standard action, which means you'll waste a round before you can get to business.
Then there's the annoying part that you gain Improved Dirty Trick in place of a Rogue Talent, while the Underhanded Trick Rogue Talent already does that, and more.
Waylayer
Power: -1
Versatility: 0
You gain a scaling bonus to Initiative and deal d8's for Sneak Attack in the surprise round. If you're taking this archetype for damage, just remember that Knife Master gives you d8's all the time.
****
Racial Archetypes
Cat Burglar (Catfolk)
Power: -1
Versatility: +1
Take 10 on stealth checks and slight buffs to disable device.
Deadly Courtesan (Vishkanya)
Power: -1
Versatility: +1
You get some bardic performances, but the rounds per day you get is far too few.
Eldritch Raider (Gillman)
Power: 0
Versatility: +1
You gain access to higher-level wizard spells, and can cast Detect Magic at will.
Filcher (Halfling)
Power: -1
Versatility: +1
With a swift action you can determine what the most valuable item someone is carrying is. You also gain the benefit of using your Sleight of Hand bonus instead of your CMB for Steal maneuvers.
The Cutpurse archetype is in my opinion superior since the DC will stay low and easy.
Kitsune Trickster (Kitsune)
Power: 0
Versatility: 0
You get some minor benefits for social interactions.
Skulking Slayer (Half-Orc) [Dip]
Power: +1
Versatility: +1
The ability to make Dirty Trick and Steal maneuvers in place of dealing sneak attack damage is real good since they're both usually standard actions.
Snare Setter (Kobold)
Power: -2
Versatility: +1
Ranger Traps are for some reason balanced around getting tied to an arrow and flung away. That's why they're just plain bad in usual circumstances, and there's no way that its worth losing that much Sneak Attack.
You do get access to some cool traps, but the traps themselves are
Swamp Poisoner (Grippli)
Power: 0
Versatility: 0
You get an additional way to deal Sneak Attack, but unfortunately it's based on your racial poison.
Swordmaster (Tengu)
Power: 0
Versatility: 0
You gain a couple flavorful Trance abilities, which all give some minor benefit. If it didn't require a full-round action to enter a trance, it'd be a lot greater.
***
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There's just so many rogue archetypes. Why is there so many rogue archetypes?
...
...
...
... because Paizo's gone rogue? ...
...
I'll show myself out (also Alchemists are done; every archetype now has a rating)
Sylvan Trickster is power -1? Care to elaborate? Slumber Hex alone is probably worth a +1...
It forfeits Uncanny Dodge, and hex DCs are intelligence-based (whereas INT is a common dump in rogue builds).
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Obviously a sylvan trickster doesn't dump Int. I wouldn't think that makes it power -1 alone.
Phantom Thief also lets you select Combat Trick, Minor Magic, and Major Magic as many times as you want -- definitely ought to be able to do something with that beyond what normal Rogues could do.
Phantom Thief also lets you select Combat Trick, Minor Magic, and Major Magic as many times as you want -- definitely ought to be able to do something with that beyond what normal Rogues could do.
Fighter-level combat feats may help, but on a 3/4 BAB class/archetype with no attack or damage bonus it's not looking good. Cantrips and 1st level spells can't save them past ~6th level at best. In combat their best bet is probably intimidate with that skill unlock.
Out of combat they're good with skills (and maybe some limited vigilante talents), but not enough to justify the huge hit to their in-combat ability IMO.
I'm thinking of the Phantom Thief being the ultimate skill monkey -- go hog wild on skills and skill unlocks, and then spam utility spells to cover the things that skills can't cover but Cantrips and 1st level spells can (with utility you don't have to worry about the non-scaling Save DC), and UMD when you need something higher level and/or off-list. Relieve the enemies of their supplies, weapons, and spell component pouches before they even know what hit them. But yes, 3/4 BAB hurts -- wish they had made an otherwise similar Slayer archetype (Social Slayer?) to have a full BAB chassis for this. Also wish they had a more working class archetype otherwise like Phantom Thief, so that it isn't just for aristocracy.
Sylvan Trickster is power -1? Care to elaborate? Slumber Hex alone is probably worth a +1...
Turn out I was doubly mistaken about the Damage Reduction rules.
This was my reasoning.
I estimated the loss of Uncanny Dodge as a downgrade of power since I believed that any creature with DR/Cold Iron would pierce your given DR with their natural attacks. (This is only true for DR/Magic and Epic, apparently.)
Also, you need +3 weapon to overcome DR/Cold Iron, not +2.
So at the very least we start out at +/- 0 Power.
The reason why the addition of Hexes doesn't increase the Power, is because we lack a way to efficiently use offensive Hexes in combination with our Sneak Attack. And when we use them, our DC pales in comparison to a real Witch, as Dexterity is our primary stat. The offensive Hexes, such as Slumber, are thus another way in addition to Sneak Attack to have an effect on the battlefield. Which increases the Versatility of the archetype.
I'm raising the Versatility to +2, though. Flight and Greater Gift of Consumption are two extremely valuable Hexes, and there's a lot more useful Hexes such as Murksight for a ranged Rogue.
Versatility: +2
Access to hexes in place of Rogue Talents should give you a lot more options both in and out of combat. Flight and Greater Gift of Consumption are excellent choices for any Rogue, and you may be tempted to take the Extra Rogue Talent feat.
If you're interested in offensive Hexes I'd check out the Hex Strike feat, but keep in mind you'd probably want some way to lower their saves.
While the loss of Uncanny Dodge stings a little, you do get Damage Reduction that should stay relevant against non-humanoid enemies at higher levels.
***
***
Tell me that doesn't deserve a mention for an archetype called "Phantom Thief"?
You're right, it does deserve a mention. Wouldn't change the rating of -2/+2, though.
Obviously a sylvan trickster doesn't dump Int. I wouldn't think that makes it power -1 alone.
Agreed. The reasons Rogues usually aren't invested in Intelligence is because they have no reason to do so, not because they can't afford it. Give them a reason, and they can easily reallocate build points towards Intelligence. You won't be quite as good as a Witch since Dex really needs to be your top priority, but you should be able to get your DC within 2 or 3 points. Given that the archetype doesn't trade off finesse training, sneak attack, or debilitating strike, I really can't see rating it downwards for power. In any case, I agree with Wonderstell's new +0/+2 rating.
You're right, it does deserve a mention. Wouldn't change the rating of -2/+2, though.
You might be able to argue for -1 power on the basis that it still has finesse training... but honestly giving up debilitating strike and sneak attack is just too much without other combat benefits.
Anyways, a few points I feel you should make regarding the Eldritch Scoundrel:
1) Emphasize it uses the Wizard spell list; this is a substantial upgrade over the Magus spell list. The Magus needs to pay a spell blending arcana for every wizard spell he wants; Eldritch Scoundrel gets the entire list for free (and there are very few Magus-exclusive spells you're losing out on)
2) Ninja talents deserve a mention; the ability to spontaneously convert spell slots into ki to fuel ninja powers is a really substantial part of the archetype's appeal.
3) The archetype has a serious valley of suck at 1st and 2nd level. URogue in general is rocky prior to getting dex to damage and debilitating strike, but Eldritch Scoundrel also gives up armor proficiency and sneak attack. It plays more like a really gimped wizard than any type of rogue.
4) Sense Vitals is a really overrated spell. It only starts to become good around CL 9 when it hits +3d6 sneak attack. For levels 4 and 5 the Cat's Grace spell is strictly superior; even if you already have a +2 belt, a mere +1 to hit and +1 to damage nets out a higher DPR boost than +1d6 damage, and you're also getting an AC/initiative/save boost and longer duration. At 6th level Sense Vital beats Cat's Grace for DPR, but not by very much and still has much shorter duration and doesn't grant as many buffs. Sense Vitals only makes sense once you've upgraded to a +4 belt and it no longer faces competition from Cat's Grace. I feel 9th level is where it starts to be something worth recommending, since that's both where 1 round/level duration starts feeling more workable and it upgrades to 3d6 damage.
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@ Dasrak
Well, you obviously have more insight of the Eldritch Scoundrel than I do. While I've written down my own evaluations I am in no way laying claim to these archetypes, and you (and everyone else) are more than welcome to write down your own thoughts.
Here's a new write-up of the Eldritch Scoundrel with your points in consideration. Still gonna mention Sense Vitals, though!
Versatility: +2
You get 6th-level casting with the Wizard's spell list, your spells per day progressing as a Magus. You also get access to Ninja Tricks and can burn spell slots in place of Ki Points.
To balance that, your Sneak Attack and Rogue Talents are given to you at half progression. Your kinship with the Magus also stops at the spell slot progression, since you don't get Spell Combat or use of light armor.
So just like a Wizard, your early game is gonna be a struggle. But after you've gathered some spell slots you'll find that the utility won outweighs the abilities lost, especially as you can shore up your poor AC with Ninja tricks/Spells and get normal Sneak Attack Progression with the Sense Vitals spell.
The Eldritch Scoundrel is a Rogue with spells, and is best played as such. If you want to play a Wizard with Sneak Attack, I'd look at the Arcane Trickster prestige class instead.
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Has anyone been in a situation where the Trapsmith archetype would have been perfect? It feels like it is made for assassinating paranoid high-level wizards with their own traps.
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Yeah, Eldritch Scoundrel is one of my favorite archetypes and I've used it quite a bit. I saw first-hand what it looks like at 1st and 2nd level play when one of my players took it. Really only started to feel "right" at 3rd and came into its own at 4th.
I managed to sit down on my lunch break and finish up the wizard archetypes. I decided to add sin mage (Thassilonian specialist) as an archetype, since it basically is. I rated every specialization separately because they are not equal by any means. I'm sort of on the fence on giving Envy/Greed/Sloth neutral versatility ratings, but Evocation/Necromancy, Enchantment/Illusion, and Evocation/Illusion are pretty manageable opposition combos. Pride, Wrath, and Lust take a power drop since losing Transmutation and/or Conjuration just guts the wizard spell list. It's more than just a versatility drop from them, but an attack on the core competencies of the class. Thoughts on the ratings?
Envy (Abjuration) Power +1, Versatility 0
Gluttony (Necromancy) Power +2, Versatility -1
Greed (Transmutation) Power +2, Versatility 0
Lust (Enchantment) Power -1, Versatility -2
Pride (Illusion) Power -2, Versatility -2
Sloth (Conjuration): Power +2, Versatility 0
Wrath (Evocation): Power -1, Versatility -2
Obviously a sylvan trickster doesn't dump Int. I wouldn't think that makes it power -1 alone.Sylvan Trickster is power -1? Care to elaborate? Slumber Hex alone is probably worth a +1...It forfeits Uncanny Dodge, and hex DCs are intelligence-based (whereas INT is a common dump in rogue builds).
He may not dump it, but it won't be his primary attribute, and if it's anywhere close to being so, he'd be better off as a 9-spells caster. Essentially his DCs will always be well behind a pure caster.
Obviously a sylvan trickster doesn't dump Int. I wouldn't think that makes it power -1 alone.Sylvan Trickster is power -1? Care to elaborate? Slumber Hex alone is probably worth a +1...It forfeits Uncanny Dodge, and hex DCs are intelligence-based (whereas INT is a common dump in rogue builds).He may not dump it, but it won't be his primary attribute, and if it's anywhere close to being so, he'd be better off as a 9-spells caster. Essentially his DCs will always be well behind a pure caster.
In a point-buy environment, Sylvan Tricksters are MADder than usual for rogue.
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Yeah, Eldritch Scoundrel is one of my favorite archetypes and I've used it quite a bit. I saw first-hand what it looks like at 1st and 2nd level play when one of my players took it. Really only started to feel "right" at 3rd and came into its own at 4th.
I managed to sit down on my lunch break and finish up the wizard archetypes. I decided to add sin mage (Thassilonian specialist) as an archetype, since it basically is. I rated every specialization separately because they are not equal by any means. I'm sort of on the fence on giving Envy/Greed/Sloth neutral versatility ratings, but Evocation/Necromancy, Enchantment/Illusion, and Evocation/Illusion are pretty manageable opposition combos. Pride, Wrath, and Lust take a power drop since losing Transmutation and/or Conjuration just guts the wizard spell list. It's more than just a versatility drop from them, but an attack on the core competencies of the class. Thoughts on the ratings?
Envy (Abjuration) Power +1, Versatility 0
Gluttony (Necromancy) Power +2, Versatility -1
Greed (Transmutation) Power +2, Versatility 0
Lust (Enchantment) Power -1, Versatility -2
Pride (Illusion) Power -2, Versatility -2
Sloth (Conjuration): Power +2, Versatility 0
Wrath (Evocation): Power -1, Versatility -2
Pretty much by definition any Thassilonian Specialist is going to be at a minus in versatility, so the question becomes whether you get enough power to make up for it. Do note that in addition to the obvious loss of ability to cast spells from your Prohibited Schools, you can't pick a Subschool, at least according to James Jacobs. This makes sense in a depressing way, because Subschool modifies Arcane School, and Thassilonian Specialist also modifies Arcane School.
Wait shouldn't Pride be -1/-2 Power, +2 Versatility? I mean sure you loose dedicated conjuration/transmutation spells, but you still get Shadow Conjuration/Transmutaion.
Shadow Conjuration only duplicates some Conjuration spells of the Summoning and Creation subschools; that's only like 10% of all conjuration spells, plus you're using higher-level spell slots to do it and it adds an extra saving throw so enemies are more likely to resist. It's still an absolutely amazing spell, but it's not substitute for the entire conjuration school by any stretch of the imagination.
Shadow Transmutation is an atrocious spell, and not even worth the cost to scribe it into your spellbook. Check it out, the list of spells it duplicates is incredibly limited, and most of the options it does offer are 1st level spells that would never be worthwhile coming out of a 5th level slot.
Conjuration and Transmutation are far and away the most valuable and influential of all Wizard schools. A huge proportion of the top-tier spells reside in these two schools, and losing out on them is a massive reduction in both the power and flexibility of the wizard.
Having thought about it, I agree with UnArcaneElection and have changed all Sin Specialists to -1 versatility if they weren't there already (those at -2 stay there). I do think Gluttony is a bit worse than Envy/Greed/Sloth, but not anywhere near as bad as Lust/Wrath/Pride.
Hi everyone, this all looks great. I'm not commenting much here, but I am slowly pulling all of the write ups into the document. Please keep up the good work!