Don't give your hopes up. They've said in the past they don't want to make Paladins/Antipaladins of different alignments.
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Legendary Villains: Antipaladins by Legendary Games contains a few antipaladin archetypes that eschew the Chaotic Evil-only requirement. So that might be an option. :)
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For me, having access to them in Herolab (without arduous programming) is a pretty big deal.
As a Hero Lab holic myself, I hear you. It's something that's kept me from using 3PP material that doesn't have Hero Lab support.
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People like having their cake and eating it too, James.
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I'll take some cake, just not from one made by an Anti-Paladin, especially of Norgorber or Urgathoa.
With the presence of the Hellknights I tend to think that an LE Antipaladin would be slightly redundant (only slightly since as pointed out above, Hellknights have to start out as something else first)
Gauging by what I've seen on here and from request's by my own group, I imagine what is really being asked for is for Hellknight to be a 1-20 Class instead of a 1-10 Prestige Class, or somthing like it.
It's another thing that's unlikely to happen though.
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At least in my case it's the full Paladin package. Full base attack (not 3/4 BAB but sometimes full due to a limited/optional/temporary/spell-based mechanic), 4-level spell list, Smite, Lay on Hands, Channel, Mercy, code of conduct, the whole shebang.
I imagine for most people who want non-LG paladins and/or non-CE Antipaladins, that's what they're wanting. An option to play that particular package of abilities without being limited to those two alignments out of nine. You can "Fake it" or "get close" or "make do" with other options like Inquisitor or Warpriest or multiclassing into Fighter or Cavalier, but only sort of; the feel, the playstyle, and the building the character are still all very different, and the mechanics just don't add up to what someone has in mind when they want a/n Anti/Paladin.
I love Inquisitor, but when I want to play a Paladin, I want to actually play a Paladin, not an Inquisitor trying to be/fake being a Paladin. The two classes are very fun, almost equally so (I actually personally slightly prefer Inquisitor of the two), but they're not all that alike, in playstyle, mechanics, or methods. Ditto for Warpriest (which, I admit, I just really don't care for all that much).
I'm admittedly more interested in any-evil Antipaladins than I am non-LG Paladins (and have long since houseruled the former as such, in addition to changing the class name to Blackguard), but there's a fair number of people who are interested in the latter that I don't think a few archetypes leaning that way would go unappreciated, either.
There's also a general, common complaint that "why do LG/CE deities get these specialized warriors of the faith but other alignments don't".
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Warpriests of Asmodeus don't cut it?
What is it folks want if that's not the case? Someone who's lawful evil who has the mercy mechanic? Someone who is lawful evil but gets to call themselves some sort of paladin?
sorry James but no, a warpriest doesn't cut it for a lot of us, it just doesn't have the right feel to it
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There's also a general, common complaint that "why do LG/CE deities get these specialized warriors of the faith but other alignments don't".
Interesting. I suspect that's the main reason overall. Which is strange... there's not as much an outcry for non-neutral druids, lawful barbarians, or non-lawful monks. Must be that the one thing that really defines the paladin's flavor (her super strict LG alignment) is the thing folks like the most... but ironically it's also the thing that folks want to CHANGE the most. It's weird.
but james we can already play non-lawful monks with the martial artist archetype
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sorry James but no, a warpriest doesn't cut it for a lot of us, it just doesn't have the right feel to itWarpriests of Asmodeus don't cut it?
What is it folks want if that's not the case? Someone who's lawful evil who has the mercy mechanic? Someone who is lawful evil but gets to call themselves some sort of paladin?
I get that, which is why I asked why it doesn't cut it for some folks. Just telling me it doesn't have the "right feel" doesn't shed any light on the matter though; not very constructive criticisim.
That said, it sounds like folks really want to have the full base attack and all the paladin abilities but not the alignment restriction... and to me, that's just not that compelling. Removing the alignment restriction makes the paladin less and less interesting to me, especially since so many of her powers are thematically tied to law or good. A certain part of me wishes (and always wished) that we'd never done an antipaladin, since that kinda opens the floodgates of possibility.
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There's also a general, common complaint that "why do LG/CE deities get these specialized warriors of the faith but other alignments don't".Interesting. I suspect that's the main reason overall. Which is strange... there's not as much an outcry for non-neutral druids, lawful barbarians, or non-lawful monks. Must be that the one thing that really defines the paladin's flavor (her super strict LG alignment) is the thing folks like the most... but ironically it's also the thing that folks want to CHANGE the most. It's weird.
That said, it sounds like folks really want to have the full base attack and all the paladin abilities but not the alignment restriction... and to me, that's just not that compelling.
It's why I personally think that alternate alignment archetypes are the way to go - you have your core LG Paladin and CE Antipaladin, but stacking on some archetypes that change up the alignment and code of conduct, along with some thematically-appropriate ability alterations and tweaks, could allow the alternative options alignment- and concept-wise while keeping the structure and theme of the class constant in a way that appeals to people who like the solidity of the complete package.
An excellent example would be the Green Knight archetype submitted during Superstar a few years back - the code of conduct was rewritten to suit a CG Paladin with strong ties to the First World, and the class abilities were tinkered with for the fey theme by alternating some of the immunities and individual tricks and swapping the spell list some with the Ranger.
Removing the alignment restriction makes the paladin less and less interesting to me, especially since so many of her powers are thematically tied to law or good.
Other than the code, some of the spells (which, again, an archetype could swap around easy), and tradition I suppose, I really don't see the Law bit in most of the Paladin's construction.
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I'm surprised nobody has taken the 10 minutes to adapt the d20 variant paladins for Pathfinder. It's really not that hard. No, it doesn't help PFS or slaves to HeroLab (although isn't HeroLab user extensible?), but as a GM I'd work with a player to allow it in my games.
Edit: Oh wait, somebody did.
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I did not know those were there! Thanks!
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Warpriests of Asmodeus don't cut it?
What is it folks want if that's not the case? Someone who's lawful evil who has the mercy mechanic? Someone who is lawful evil but gets to call themselves some sort of paladin?
Well cant speak for ayone else but the feel I get is antipaladin fits LE better than CE (Mostly from running one through Way of the wicked where the author suggests just making them LE.)
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I too feel LE conveys the dark knight literary archetype better than CE.
Would definitely be on board with a LE Anti-Paladin archetype in Pathfinder, and I could absolutely see Asmodeus empowering and utilizing them with vile glee to serve in his name.
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Warpriests of Asmodeus don't cut it?
What is it folks want if that's not the case? Someone who's lawful evil who has the mercy mechanic? Someone who is lawful evil but gets to call themselves some sort of paladin?
Just telling me it doesn't have the "right feel" doesn't shed any light on the matter though; not very constructive criticisim.
That said, it sounds like folks really want to have the full base attack and all the paladin abilities but not the alignment restriction... and to me, that's just not that compelling. Removing the alignment restriction makes the paladin less and less interesting to me, especially since so many of her powers are thematically tied to law or good. A certain part of me wishes (and always wished) that we'd never done an antipaladin, since that kinda opens the floodgates of possibility.
I absolutely do not "just want the paladin, but with no alignment restriction".
To be honest, I'd have preferred to see antipaladins made LE from the beginning. (I've never wanted CG paladins, either.) The antipaladin's code makes little sense to me, as an antipaladin is literally the last person who should have a code. He's an embodiment of chaos and evil... who has to follow strict rules governing his behavior.
Statwise: the full attack bonus is part of it, as is the limited spellcasting. The warpriest isn't a warrior, it's a cleric who's a bit better at fighting. Warpriests also have to have a deity, which sometimes works against the concept I'm going for.
I would rather the "Black Knight" had a different spread of abilities. Replace smite good with something that works on everyone - he should be just as good at killing neutral creatures that oppose him. Keep a lot of self-serving powers, like divine grace and a self-only lay on hands (or similar abilities). Maybe give him powers that reward his enemies for surrendering and/or betraying their cause to serve him.
Thematically, there's also the idea of paladins as being "above" others. An order might have many warpriests, but few paladins, because paladins are above and beyond even the priests. The same holds true for the dark side - there may be lots of Dark Jedi or Force-sensitive morally dubious characters floating around, but there's only one Darth Vader.
Why not Hellknights, you (will probably) ask? The Hellknights have their own lore - which I love, but which sometimes makes them ill-suited for certain roles. They're not usually self-serving, for one thing. They place the Law above their own needs, and use reckonings to punish their own misbehavior. They are also ill-suited to acting on others' behalf, as they place the Law above even their masters - they're actually more like paladins in that regard.
Does this help to answer your questions?
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For me, one of the absolute strengths of the Pathfinder RPG is customizability. The ability to customize a game mechanic to fit virtually any idea I may have.
As written, antipaladins are Chaotic Evil. That works for *many* different concepts, but once a while a concept comes along where a slightly modified version of a class (in this case the antipaladin) works even better.
It might be as simple as removing the alignment prerequisite or tweaking the existing class features here and there. Sometimes, though, replacing some of a class's class features is ideal, and in these situations archetypes are brilliant, I think.
An Asmodean antipaladin sounds like an intriguing archetype.
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sorry James but no, a warpriest doesn't cut it for a lot of us, it just doesn't have the right feel to itWarpriests of Asmodeus don't cut it?
What is it folks want if that's not the case? Someone who's lawful evil who has the mercy mechanic? Someone who is lawful evil but gets to call themselves some sort of paladin?
I get that, which is why I asked why it doesn't cut it for some folks. Just telling me it doesn't have the "right feel" doesn't shed any light on the matter though; not very constructive criticisim.
That said, it sounds like folks really want to have the full base attack and all the paladin abilities but not the alignment restriction... and to me, that's just not that compelling. Removing the alignment restriction makes the paladin less and less interesting to me, especially since so many of her powers are thematically tied to law or good. A certain part of me wishes (and always wished) that we'd never done an antipaladin, since that kinda opens the floodgates of possibility.
A few reasons!
First, from the Antipaladin point of view.Antipaladin has a very lawful feel to it despite the actual alignment- having a strict code does that. Just like when playing a good campaign one immediately thinks of the Paladin, when playing an evil campaign one jumps to Antipaladin, but the CE is generally thought to not work as well with the party as LE. So as a result, LE often feels like a better fit for the class than CE. Plus, Asmodeus is a much more player/party friendly deity than Lamashtu or Rovagug.
Second, why we don't just play Warpriest. (At least in my case.)
It's... less awesome. You have lower hitpoints, lower BAB, lower saves, and less dramatic abilities. An Antipaladin is a juggernaut with one stat to all saves, d10, and full iteratives. Cruelties eventually become very scary, which makes Touch of Corruption more fun than Fervor. Fiendish Boon is a permanent summons way before the usual capstone-only versions (making for a lot of great roleplay options). So while Warpriest can imitate a lot of Antipaladin stuff, I'm burning through a bunch of spells just to catch up to the Antipaladin, which feels a bit like faking it. An Antipaladin lets me let loose and laugh at my enemies, even if they're casters.
Why not non-lawful Monks, corner alignment Druids, and lawful Barbarians?
We have non-lawful Monks with two archetypes and an obscure trait. Druids and Barbarians can always be within one step of the desired alignment, which is pretty good. Bloodrager makes a decent Barbarian substitute since it's a full-BAB rager with access to rage powers.
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sorry James but no, a warpriest doesn't cut it for a lot of us, it just doesn't have the right feel to itWarpriests of Asmodeus don't cut it?
What is it folks want if that's not the case? Someone who's lawful evil who has the mercy mechanic? Someone who is lawful evil but gets to call themselves some sort of paladin?
I get that, which is why I asked why it doesn't cut it for some folks. Just telling me it doesn't have the "right feel" doesn't shed any light on the matter though; not very constructive criticisim.
That said, it sounds like folks really want to have the full base attack and all the paladin abilities but not the alignment restriction... and to me, that's just not that compelling. Removing the alignment restriction makes the paladin less and less interesting to me, especially since so many of her powers are thematically tied to law or good. A certain part of me wishes (and always wished) that we'd never done an antipaladin, since that kinda opens the floodgates of possibility.
Why would only LG (and CE) get both warpriest and (anti)paladin ?
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To me, Paladins have tended to feel more like alignment exemplars, needing a deep, fervent devotion to two alignment ideals, whatever combination of two you want, but two distinct ones. LN or NG or whatever need not apply. I liked the 3e D&D alternate paladins, and while I'll grant it's hard to figure out what exactly a CG "paladin" should be like, it's something I think the game could use. There is actually a precedent in the early stages of Pathfinder, AP volume 14's 3-level Chevalier prestige class for Caydenites. It's a rough base for an attempt at a CG "paladin", if nothing else. Once you figure that one out, invert it, and there's your base for the Blackguard LE Anti-Chevalier.
Druids are exactly the opposite, alignment moderates. Extremes are not nature's way, things tending to return to a balance, leading to the prohibition of LG/CG/LE/CE Druids.
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+1 to everything Orthos said. Then add that it doesn't make much sense that other religions and alignment-associated forces wouldn't see the Paladin and Antipaladin and then try to commission their own answer to these. I would like to see a whole set of Holy Warrior types -- not necessarily mirror images of each other along the 2 alignment axes -- but with the same levels of holy and martial focus. Although one thing I would like to see that is probably different from what most people want is Prestige Holy Warrior classes rather than base classes -- think of the D&D 3.6 Prestige Paladin (which for some reason made no mention of the alternate alignments, not even Antipaladin) and the Kirthfinder equivalent (which in the documents I last checked several months ago was built Lawful Good, but explicitly mentioned the possibility of making other alignment versions, although with some assembly required on the part of the GM). After all, what religion in their right mind (even if Evil) is going to let some random person off the street become one of their holy/unholy champions before they have proven their loyalty, dedication, ans steadfastness in actual field service? Same thing for Inquisitors (even though I love the Inquisitor base class chassis). The Hellknight prestige classes (both types) are good examples of this concept for the forces of merciless Law, although they need their mechanics to be updated to work right with modern base classes (for instance, Arcane Armor Training, required to be a arcane Hellknight Signifer, is useless for most Magi), and they need some accompanying base class archetypes. As noted above, Hellknights do not exactly fit the concept of an Asmodean Quasi-Paladin, so Lawful Evil actually has room for (at least) TWO Holy Warrior prestige classes (or even base classes, if you really want to make Hellknights level 1 - 20 base classes, but I think that they are better as prestige classes). By extension, this is also true for Lawful Good (Hellknight and Prestige Paladin).
Related to Hellknights: Rank-and-file Hellknight martial types are called Armigers when they have not yet passed their Hellknight Test and are not yet full-fledged Hellknights. But what are rank-and-file spellcasting Hellknights called when they have not yet passed their Hellknight Test and are not yet Signifers? I asked this in another thread, and it seems to be a mystery, although one person thought that they were also called Armigers. Pathfinderwiki is strangely silent on the matter.
Also: Somebody mentioned *2* non-Lawful Monk archetypes (not including Monks using the Enlightened Warrior trait). I know of Martial Artist, but what is the other one? Strangely, it seems NOT to be Drunken Master.
Oh, and by the way, I would be all for a subset of Druids that do not have a Neutral alignment component in the same way as a subset of Hunters do not have a Neutral alignment component, because they have attached themselves to a corner alignment deity (see Divine Hunter archetype of Hunter, confusingly named the same as a Paladin archetype). This would open up the option for Druids of Erastil, Desna, and Lamashtu to actually match the alignments of their patron deities. (Not sure what Lawful Evil deities have a nature theme -- hence only 3 examples listed.)
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Oh, that wall of text. :P
Short version on druids and paladins - I believe their power transcends deities. Their power doesn't come from a deity, which is why they're not required to have one. I don't have a citation for you at the moment, though.
Related to Hellknights: Rank-and-file Hellknight martial types are called Armigers when they have not yet passed their Hellknight Test and are not yet full-fledged Hellknights. But what are rank-and-file spellcasting Hellknights called when they have not yet passed their Hellknight Test and are not yet Signifers? I asked this in another thread, and it seems to be a mystery, although one person thought that they were also called Armigers. Pathfinderwiki is strangely silent on the matter.
Also: Somebody mentioned *2* non-Lawful Monk archetypes (not including Monks using the Enlightened Warrior trait). I know of Martial Artist, but what is the other one? Strangely, it seems NOT to be Drunken Master.
According to the section on Hellknights in Hell Unleashed, all Hellknights who haven't yet passed the trial are armigers:
"To enter the ranks of any Hellknight order, an armiger (a Hellknight squire) must..."
The second archetype is the karmic monk (from Occult Adventures) which can be neutral in addition to the other alignments.
Hopefully this helps. ^_^
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Back in the days of AD&D, Dragon Magazine once published rules for seven alternative alignment holy warriors (the anti-paladin having already been created by then). They were rather innovative rather than just a quick repaint job of the paladin.
Of course, Paladins back in 1st edition weren't as handy as they are in Pathfinder. :)
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Back in the days of AD&D, Dragon Magazine once published rules for seven alternative alignment holy warriors (the anti-paladin having already been created by then). They were rather innovative rather than just a quick repaint job of the paladin.
Of course, Paladins back in 1st edition weren't as handy as they are in Pathfinder. :)
Dragon Magazine #310-#312 did the same eight-paladin spread for 3.5. I quite prefer them over the bland Unearthed Arcana set. ^_^
In fact, they were written by the very same James Jacobs posting in this thread (though as I recall, he's not that big a fan of them).
oh paladins of tyranny all around hopefully.
(Not sure what Lawful Evil deities have a nature theme -- hence only 3 examples listed.)
Zon-Kuthn has druids in his service. Shade of the Uskwood, and all that.
That said,I like that Druids don't necessarily match deity alignments- it means each faith has some nuance, surprise, surprise.
As far as the OP goes, I do think Antipaladins being Chaotic Evil by default is a relic of the AD&D days, rather than a logical outgrowth of the idea of a dark knight.
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I was never really into LE paladins or antipaladins, but I can see the appeal. I do kinda like Paladins being LG exclusive though so if there WAS LE paladin, they should have very different feel I think.
Anyway, yeah, antipaladins don't really work for the whole "Dark Knight/Black Knight" feel. They are more of juggernauts of destruction who move to next location kill everyone, repeat while Dark Knight would be more like... Well, less overt. Dark Knight could be a villain with code of honor, or knight who is dishonorable anthisesis to the knight in shining armor. Either way, not just a killing machine. (Though I do like antipaladins for the whole "Juggernaut of destruction" thing they have going on, they don't really work as the second in command to big bad, more like the heavy who makes players go "Oh shit, its them" when they are around since they feel kinda brutish to me at least)
Kalindara already said why Hell Knights don't really fix this itch, but I guess I'll add my own thoughts: they are 1) an organization 2) are THE LAAAAAAW enforcement. This is bit of a problem in that Dark Knigth/Black Knight characters are usually a singular force following their own code instead of organization... Maybe they serve the big bad or maybe they are like ronin aka liegeless and doing their own thing. Either way, Hell Knight doesn't really fit for me at least, they feel more like Judges from Judge Dredd. Basically like super cops who are scary and spiky.
Like I think Black Knight from Fire Emblem path of radiance(and radiant dawn) is pretty good example of what I'm thinking about when I think about this role: Mysterious, powerful, scary, honorable, follows agenda we don't know until late in the game...
...Yeah, I'd say the mysterious part is big part of it xD Darth Vader is mysterious until we learn who he is and until the end we never see his face. Whether Dark Knight is self serving or serves higher power, they are always mysterious.
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Cool; thanks for the descriptive feedback, everyone! Lots to think about and mull over! :-)
Man, it's super cool that Paizo does stuff like this. Even if we don't get this in particular, I appreciate that you stopped by to see why people are interested in it and say what your view on it is.
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Good news everyone! Agents of Evil has an any-evil Antipaladin. Sounds like it falls closer to a Pally's "unkillable" than an Antipally's "kill everything", getting stuff like selfish healing with personal mercies instead of Touch of Corruption. No spells (bonus feats instead), and flexibility on the types of evil outsiders it works with. More details here!
The sound of "Smite Impudence" alone is enough to make me want to play one.
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The Insinuator Antipaladin can also work with neutral (neither good nor evil) outsiders and gets nice benefits for doing so.
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The Insinuator Antipaladin can also work with neutral (neither good nor evil) outsiders and gets nice benefits for doing so.
Wait.
I can have a CE Antipaladin in cahoots with Proteans? But Christmas isn't for another two weeks...
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This only proves Paizo does listen.
The Agents of Evil antipaladin archetype perfectly captures some of what was asked for in this very thread. It can be any evil alignment and is selfish to the core, while maintaining the theme of the vile knight.
I cant wait for this AP.
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sorry James but no, a warpriest doesn't cut it for a lot of us, it just doesn't have the right feel to itWarpriests of Asmodeus don't cut it?
What is it folks want if that's not the case? Someone who's lawful evil who has the mercy mechanic? Someone who is lawful evil but gets to call themselves some sort of paladin?
I get that, which is why I asked why it doesn't cut it for some folks. Just telling me it doesn't have the "right feel" doesn't shed any light on the matter though; not very constructive criticisim.
I guess the LG paladin is a creature of structure, following orders and is basically (though not not always after players create 'their' version) the 'Knight in Shining Armor' that Iomedae and King Arthur is the poster girl/boys for. It is good within structure.
But they are a creatures of structure, institution and LAW.
That is why (to me) Lawful Evil seems to be the 'proper' alignment for an Anti Paladin rather than Chaotic Evil. Lawful creates those structures an Anti paladin uses, manipluates and lives in and the Evil is the Dark Shadow of the Law. He is Darth Vader, who says 'what is your bidding my master'. He is many versions of Mordred, who feels that he has the legal claim to power. It is the Operative who congradulates for your hard work just as he's executing you.
To me, that is what an Anti Paladin should be, rather than the Chaotic Evil Joker, Loki at Ragnarok, Hannibal Lector, YoSafBrig (Firefly) etc.
That is why I think the CE Anti Paladin was a mistake if you had to choose just one alignment for an Anti Paladin. I think it has something to do why I don't see many of them in published materials either.
And I don't favor Paladins of every alignment. I'm not sure if I don't think Paladins shouldn't be removed from the game, and my argument come down to this. Why is LAWFUL good extra special good? Why do they get to smite things and a holy warrior of Milani can't? Personally, I think Lawful good is the least good of the good alignments because Law is ultimately about controlling and ultimately enslaving, even if it is done for the 'greater good' (guess that says something about where I stand on the whole law/chaos thing). And the existence of only LG Paladins seems to imply an editorial bias toward LG as the 'best' good.
If I were to allow Paladins/antipalidins and wasn't going for the LE antpaladin, I think I'd go for the four extreme alignments (LG,CG,LE,CE) because it seems to me that extreme commitment is what makes for the clarity of vision to be able to smite the bloody bastards.
Hope that was helpful.
Kerney
The Insinuator Antipaladin can also work with neutral (neither good nor evil) outsiders and gets nice benefits for doing so.
Wait.
I can have a CE Antipaladin in cahoots with Proteans? But Christmas isn't for another two weeks...
The only difficulty is that you have to succeed at a Diplomacy or Knowledge (Religion) check of DC 15 + antipaladin level to invoke an outsider whose alignment does not exactly match yours. Also, if you violate the ethos of the invoked outsider, you lose the ability to invoke outsiders of that alignment until you atone. If you lose access to your own alignment and do not have high enough skill bonuses, you could render yourself powerless.
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And this is where house rules come in.
The Way of the Wicked Player's Guide has rules for Asmodean antipaladins. Use those if you're so inclined in your own Hell's Vengeance campaign.
Problem solved.
Druids are exactly the opposite, alignment moderates. Extremes are not nature's way, things tending to return to a balance, leading to the prohibition of LG/CG/LE/CE Druids.
No extremes are nature's way. The only viable explanation as to why Druids are neutral is that nature doesn't care at all in the mass murder it commits on a daily basis.
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I've always thought the anti-paladin should have been LE instead of CE. For me the feel of the paladin as a champion of Law and order from a good perspective was the fun of playing a paladin. In Contrast taking the same feel as a champion of law and order from an evil perspective just fits better in my mind. Kind of like a Darth Vader character. Ruthlessly enforcing the law and order of his master. Opposed to the chaos and wanting to bring order to the galaxy.
For the folks mentioning you can't do this in Hero Lab, you totally can with a user package. I'm no coder by any stretch of the imagination but I created a file in ten minutes using just basic guides for Hero Lab editing to create an archetype that switched the alignment requirement from CE to LE. We used it for our Way of the Wicked campaign. Not hard at all; just have to do a little work on your own.