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I always thought the anti paladin should be LE to be a true evil mirror to the paladin. Every one of my groups over the years have always house ruled to make them any evil alignment.
I also have to add that I always consider the anti paladin to be the Blackguard prestige class from the 3.5 golden days of prestige classes. You need a Dark Knight class for people who want honorable but evil martial characters to play.
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Because playing Judge Dredd, Darth Vader and the Green Power Ranger is a bigger draw than playing someone who just wants to watch the world burn in a cooperative game.
Lawful Evil is a more believable fall for a paladin than Chaotic Evil. When the Paladin stops tempering Justice with Mercy. When he starts using fear to control a populace instead of hope to inspire.
Hellknight would make a rad base class or (Anti)/Paladin archetype.
Well, there is the "Can be any lawful" Nightguard archetype for the Paladin in DSP's Lords of the Night as well, but given that his CoC is basically "Destroy/Neutralize any beings that threaten the innocent and ensure the safety of lawful societies", said Nightguard would be just as likely to turn on the party if they weren't all strongly LE.
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Agents of Evil has an any-evil-alignment antipaladin archetype.
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This is explicitly the kind of thing the Champion of the Faith archetype for Warpriest is FOR.
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This is explicitly the kind of thing the Champion of the Faith archetype for Warpriest is FOR.
Lots of discussion earlier covering why Warpriest doesn't really accomplish the things some people are looking for. It works for many, of course, but I imagine the ones on here are in the other category.
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This is explicitly the kind of thing the Champion of the Faith archetype for Warpriest is FOR.Lots of discussion earlier covering why Warpriest doesn't really accomplish the things some people are looking for. It works for many, of course, but I imagine the ones on here are in the other category.
I'll be blunt.
A lot of people - myself included - are just plain not impressed by Warpriest.
It tries on one hand to be a martial Cleric (something Cleric was pretty darn good at itself, and Warpriest comes off half-assed as a result), and on the other an any-alignment Paladin (again, something Paladin and Antipaladin do very well, and Warpriest comes off as trying too hard and failing).
If people wanted the Warpriest, they'd just use the Warpriest. The fact that they're coming here asking for something else is one of the biggest proofs that Warpriest just doesn't cut the mustard.
Here's my more detailed rant on the subject earlier in this very thread.
Why do you need an Official one? Making an LE paladin by taking an Antipaladin and writing 'LE' on the character sheet seems almost stupidly straightforward. It won't fly in PFS, sure, but neither will Evil characters.
It tries on one hand to be a martial Cleric (something Cleric was pretty darn good at itself, and Warpriest comes off half-assed as a result),
I've ranted my rant on this before - clerics shouldn't have had 3/4 BAB to begin with.
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Why do you need an Official one? Making an LE paladin by taking an Antipaladin and writing 'LE' on the character sheet seems almost stupidly straightforward. It won't fly in PFS, sure, but neither will Evil characters.
I believe it's more of an issue of what the Antipaladin stands for, in base of his CoC (even if we take out the chaos part)-The baseline antipaladin is fundamentally the champion of all things evil, and a lawful one would just happen to have some degree of self-restraint on his methods. And the Insinuator is mainly motivated by self-interest, only adhering to an outsider's morals due to a pact, and just for the duration of said pact.
The main appeal about Asmodeus is that he's more Lawful than Evil, and an (Anti)Paladin archetype specifically dedicated to that purpose would be the merciless enforcer of justice and law (And of tyranny), but not overall a champion of evil nor someone who's in just for the benefits.
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Why do you need an Official one? Making an LE paladin by taking an Antipaladin and writing 'LE' on the character sheet seems almost stupidly straightforward. It won't fly in PFS, sure, but neither will Evil characters.
For me personally? I don't. I would LIKE one, because I'm sure Paizo would do something interesting with it, but you're right, it's very easy to houserule. And I don't PFS so that's not even an issue for me.
The people who need an official one are those unfortunate souls whose GMs will not allow them to do things like that, who need official, first-party sources for everything, regardless of the ease of houseruling or the availability of 3rd-party solutions.
Thankfully the number of those sorts of GMs is dwindling in this day and age, but they're far from gone.
The main appeal about Asmodeus is that he's more Lawful than Evil,
That's exactly what he wants you to think.
an (Anti)Paladin archetype specifically dedicated to that purpose would be the merciless enforcer of justice and law (And of tyranny), but not overall a champion of evil nor someone who's in just for the benefits.
So give them Smite Chaos and Detect Chaos instead.
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Why do you need an Official one? Making an LE paladin by taking an Antipaladin and writing 'LE' on the character sheet seems almost stupidly straightforward. It won't fly in PFS, sure, but neither will Evil characters.
Because there are too many stick in the mud GMs/players who only accept "official" paizo sources or books when it comes to the game. The most commonly houseruled item I have ever seen frankly is letting paladins be of any good/neutral alignment or at least allowing anti paladins to be any evil or LE.
Unless paizo changes the rules many people will not be able to experience the class in the manner they want to play.
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This is explicitly the kind of thing the Champion of the Faith archetype for Warpriest is FOR.
Have to disagree strongly with this. Warpriest is not a bad class but it is nowhere near what the Dark Knight feel and abilities that people want. The anti paladin has that feeling but it has that pesky CE tag to go along with it. People wanting a Dark Knight to play need at least a LE tag.
The main appeal about Asmodeus is that he's more Lawful than Evil,That's exactly what he wants you to think.
Actually, Book of the Damned pretty much confirms that Asmodeus started out as lawful, and became evil later on when he backstabbed Ihys.
I'd say Asmodeus was evil well before he struck down Ihys.
The more important thing to keep in is that Hell represents what Asmodeus thinks the entire multiverse should be like.
And that Asmodeus thinks free will itself is a crime that should be punished with eternal torture.
Asmodeus hates mortals, and Hell is an infinite monument to his hatred.
As to anti-paladins - as already mentioned, the insinuator archetype, which is an any-evil antipaladin out of Agents of Evil, is an actual thing.
And since it is actually a thing, I doubt there's going to be another Paizo non-chaotic anti-paladin any time soon.
(Aside: I suddenly wonder how well a Sentinel of Asmodeus fills the anti-paladin niche. Sentinel is a PrC I haven't paid much attention to.)
First, the Book of the Damned myth, as an in-world source, is not necessarily reliable. It is exactly the kind of story Asmodeus and his church would promote - it sets Asmodeus up as a tragic character of grand destiny, not a pretty tyrant and ascended devil.
Second, the thing that started the war with Ihys was free will for mortals. Asmodeus was a tyrant to start.
Thirdly, it doesn't matter when he became Evil - he could easily be more Evil than Lawful in the present.
Lastly, my comment was an offhand joke about the seductive nature of Evil and the Asmodean church's attempts to rebrand the Prince of Lies as the Prince of Law.
(Aside: I suddenly wonder how well a Sentinel of Asmodeus fills the anti-paladin niche. Sentinel is a PrC I haven't paid much attention to.)
Sentinels of Asmodeus have some damn* fine art.
Zhangar, thanks for showing up. I was looking for your 'nine interconnected dimensions that are a monument to his hatred' quote, but you saved me the trouble.
First, the Book of the Damned myth, as an in-world source, is not necessarily reliable. It is exactly the kind of story Asmodeus and his church would promote - it sets Asmodeus up as a tragic character of grand destiny, not a pretty tyrant and ascended devil.
Second, the thing that started the war with Ihys was free will for mortals. Asmodeus was a tyrant to start.
Thirdly, it doesn't matter when he became Evil - he could easily be more Evil than Lawful in the present.
Lastly, my comment was an offhand joke about the seductive nature of Evil and the Asmodean church's attempts to rebrand the Prince of Lies as the Prince of Law.
Consider the following: Ihys's experiment to determine free will for mortals started up with him obliterating a world filled with his most devoted-that strikes me as something a good character wouldn't do, even in the name of freedom. (Which, when you consider it, amounts to them being able to choose who to worship, because even lawful outsiders have their own free will, they're just bound to the alignment from which they are literally made of)
Secondly, Asmodean tenets also involve the fair and proper rewarding of those that perform well in their actions, making him more about rulership in general than strictly tyranny-which leads me to the situation in Hell (Which apparently Dahak might have set or not on fire permanently). Hell is specifically the place where Lawful Evil (and devil-sold) souls are sent: It's meant to be a place of perennial punishment, and perhaps that's how Asmodeus decides it best fits its role-Outside of a few outliers like those trapped indirectly by a third party's contract, no Good-aligned souls ever end up there, and the neutral ones are those that specifically worship devils and other lawful evil deities.
Zhangar, thanks for showing up. I was looking for your 'nine interconnected dimensions that are a monument to his hatred' quote, but you saved me the trouble.
Heh, you're welcome, though you just caused me to hunt down the actual post.
And a thread I've been debating necroing because of Hell Unleashed and the Hell's Rebels Mephistopheles article (which revealed a lot about Asmodeus).
Fun facts: Asmodeus had found Hell and found it intriguing long before he ever had his war with the Heavens. At the end of that war, he took his followers straight to Hell. And then Asmodeus entered into a contract with Hell itself, turning most of the 8th layer into Mephistopheles (bonus fun fact - if you're in the 8th layer, you are breathing Mephistopheles) and becoming Hell's master. He subsequently reshaped Hell to be more to his desires.
(Pre-Asmodeus Hell probably sucked because its where lawful evil souls were going and being lawful evil to each other at (and may even be where the kytons are from), but its Post-Asmodeus that Hell became the realm of infinite punishment that we all know and love.)
Asmodeus gets uglier when you consider the populations of mortals trapped in the Bolgias of the 6th layer, and whatever planets conquered by his malebranche must be like.
Asmodeus's goal is a universe where every single mortal goes to Hell for eternal punishment upon death.
The tenants of his faith don't have much bearing on the fact that he'll cheerfully have his worshipers reduced to being intelligent pain-wracked bricks =P
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Ross, I think the issues boils down to being that a great many people feel the Antipaladin class should have been LE from its initial Pathfinder creation, that LE is its natural state, and one being CE should probably be what requires a special exception, not vice versa. Given that such isn't the case, an official LE Paizo version is desired instead.
Warpriests of Asmodeus don't cut it?
What is it folks want if that's not the case? Someone who's lawful evil who has the mercy mechanic? Someone who is lawful evil but gets to call themselves some sort of paladin?
Someone who's Lawful Evil, with (limited) evil Divine Casting, full BAB, and Charisma bonus added to saving throws.
Warpriests are good in their own right, but they pale in comparison to a Paladin, and the Archetype that gives them Smite also robs them of their ability to enhance their weapon for anything but alignment.
Honestly, one of my main issues with Inspirator is that it trades out Aura of Cowardice, which is effectively the only way to apply Intimidate/other fear effects on paladins and others.
For me it really comes down to being able to use the class. I find the Antipaladin, much like the Paladin, to have some of the coolest class abilities and opportunities for roleplay, but when would a player ever get to play as one?
Why does a knight of the Rough Beast want to stop Karzoug? Or a knight of Lamashtu care about a cult trying to free the Whispering Tyrant? Or a knight of some demon lord want to help the elves stop a bunch a drow? And more importantly why would any group of heroes want to join up with someone who's end goal is destroying the world, creating a world of monsters or enslaving all mankind for their demon lord?
There are campaigns where these characters fit, but for a person who wants to enjoy the adventure paths it makes the Antipaladin a no go. However, replace that Chaotic Evil follower of Rovagug with a Lawful Evil Knight of Asmodeus,who summons devils rather than demons, and suddenly a lot more people are willing to have you along because your end goal isnt killing everyone and everything.
Antipaladins are awesome for badguys, but whats the point of making a class so cool if we can never use it.
And for those who say that Hell's Vengeance is that chance 1) I don't want a party of five antipaladins 2) Maybe the player's guide will wow me, but I dont know why any Chaotic Evil demon summoning knight is going to want to support Thrune rather than go off and be evil somewhere else where Chaos isnt considered something to be eliminated.
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Yes, Tyrant archetype lets you play a LE AP with very little change to the base class. I think you swap Diplomacy for Ride as a class skill as the only real mechanical change. I thank Paizo profusely on behalf of groups that had GMs that would not houserule to allow APs to be anything other than CE.
This is explicitly the kind of thing the Champion of the Faith archetype for Warpriest is FOR.Lots of discussion earlier covering why Warpriest doesn't really accomplish the things some people are looking for. It works for many, of course, but I imagine the ones on here are in the other category.I'll be blunt.
A lot of people - myself included - are just plain not impressed by Warpriest.
It tries on one hand to be a martial Cleric (something Cleric was pretty darn good at itself, and Warpriest comes off half-assed as a result), and on the other an any-alignment Paladin (again, something Paladin and Antipaladin do very well, and Warpriest comes off as trying too hard and failing).
If people wanted the Warpriest, they'd just use the Warpriest. The fact that they're coming here asking for something else is one of the biggest proofs that Warpriest just doesn't cut the mustard.
Here's my more detailed rant on the subject earlier in this very thread.
The WarPriest serves another need... for someone who's fond of the old fighter/cleric multi-class combo as well.
Ross, I think the issues boils down to being that a great many people feel the Antipaladin class should have been LE from its initial Pathfinder creation, that LE is its natural state, and one being CE should probably be what requires a special exception, not vice versa. Given that such isn't the case, an official LE Paizo version is desired instead.
And a great many more people had spent years calling for a CE opposite mirror pair to the LG Paladin, a character opposed to every aspect of the Paladin, the Lawful as well as the Good ones. I don't see a particular problem with the CE Anti-Paladin.. many classic bad guy bosses fit that model without a problem.
sorry James but no, a warpriest doesn't cut it for a lot of us, it just doesn't have the right feel to itWarpriests of Asmodeus don't cut it?
What is it folks want if that's not the case? Someone who's lawful evil who has the mercy mechanic? Someone who is lawful evil but gets to call themselves some sort of paladin?
I get that, which is why I asked why it doesn't cut it for some folks. Just telling me it doesn't have the "right feel" doesn't shed any light on the matter though; not very constructive criticisim.
That said, it sounds like folks really want to have the full base attack and all the paladin abilities but not the alignment restriction... and to me, that's just not that compelling. Removing the alignment restriction makes the paladin less and less interesting to me, especially since so many of her powers are thematically tied to law or good. A certain part of me wishes (and always wished) that we'd never done an antipaladin, since that kinda opens the floodgates of possibility.
I love the idea of alternate-alignment "paladins", and it's not remotely because I want the abilities without the alignment restriction. I want the gameplay element of actually having to play my alignment - and having a reason to be uncompromising about it - for more alignments than just LG.
Heck, I really don't care if they get full BAB or smite or anything. I just want other classes with a similar level of restriction.
Lawful Evil is a more believable fall for a paladin than Chaotic Evil. When the Paladin stops tempering Justice with Mercy. When he starts using fear to control a populace instead of hope to inspire.
This, also, is a big factor. A complete alignment shift... really can hardly ever be justified. Shifting to Chaotic OR Evil, that seems very much more plausible and also easier to maintain a still sympathetic/playable character with.
I think we can call this thread dead,
Rest in piece
It is a time this time id like to cast gentle repose on this thread so that no necromancy may occur.