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Okay, so I've never played a magus before, and a friend is making a game and I thought 'Why not? I'll look into a magus.' With the recent Occult handbook, I started thumbing through it and found the Mindblade. It's a really fun class and I really like the flavor of being able to summon psychic swords to fight with. I know it's suboptimal (yay, you can get two psychic swords for a class that will NEVER use two weapon fighting) but I just see it as getting rid of medium and heavy armor proficiencies (which is what you swap out for dual weapons) for the ability to summon psychic swords
But then I realized something, Intensified spell, which is basically the bread and butter of a magus, DOESN'T work.
From what I can tell, when ANY spontaneous caster (including the new psychic mindblade, who basically gains bard-like casting features, but with a different spell list and int instead of chr) tries to apply a metamagic feat to a spell (except quicken), the casting time becomes a full round action. This means it can't be used with spell combat.
Am I right? If so, does this basically stop the build from working? I know that, like, 90% of magus builds go Magical lineage (Shocking grasp)->Intensified shocking grasp, rapier (or scimitar) for 11d6 damage for a level 1 spell (at level 10) -> beat the everloving crap out of someone.
Does losing the ability to intensify my shocking grasp basically turn my build into a lame duck?
The other issue you have to deal with is that the mindblade has a +10 concentration penalty to deal with. You simply can't play this magus the same way as the other ones.
My suggestion for playing this type of magus is to focus on defensive buffs rather than offensive spells. If you start standing next to the enemy: full attack, five foot step away, and cast a buff. If you start 5 feet away from the enemy: cast a buff (or an offensive spell) 5 foot step in, and then full attack.
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The other issue you have to deal with is that the mindblade has a +10 concentration penalty to deal with. You simply can't play this magus the same way as the other ones.
My suggestion for playing this type of magus is to focus on defensive buffs rather than offensive spells. If you start standing next to the enemy: full attack, five foot step away, and cast a buff. If you start 5 feet away from the enemy: cast a buff (or an offensive spell) 5 foot step in, and then full attack.
True, though warding weapon and illusion of calm can deal with that.
You very specifically have to go a different route, like LazarX said. Some options on that front include:
-Build yourself a little more melee than standard and swing for the fences with a 2-handed weapon, using spells for defensive buffs.
-Spellcombat/spellstrike something other than Shocking Grasp.
-Actually cast spells, then melee later.
It's probably a combo of all 3 of those.
(yay, you can get two psychic swords for a class that will NEVER use two weapon fighting)
You can actually do two-weapon fighting with mindblade since psychic casting doesn't require a hand-free.
(yay, you can get two psychic swords for a class that will NEVER use two weapon fighting)You can actually do two-weapon fighting with mindblade since psychic casting doesn't require a hand-free.
Does the archetype change the fact that spell combat occupies the offhand. Because if it doesn't, then the mindblade isn't really much better off than a regular magus who wears a spiked gauntlet or something in the off hand.
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So, I've been messing around with some ideas. Basically, I'm going to be a gimped magus. I can handle some gimping (honestly, the super-nova Magus build is a bit ridiculous and I don't really want to play it). Here's what I've got so far:
NG Human Magus (Mindblade)
Str9; Dex18 Con14; Int16; Wis10; Chr7
Skills:
Knowledge-Arcana
Spellcraft:
Craft-Clockwork: (This is for flavor, may stop putting ranks into it after a few levels)
Perform-Dance (At least 2 ranks)
(Two others, knowledge-Planes? Climb and Swim?)
Traits: Focused Mind
Talented (for dance, I can swap this out)
Feats:
1)
Weapon Finesse
Combat Casting
3)Dervish dance
(Weapon Diligence Arcana)
5)Extra Arcana (Arcane Accuracy)
(Craft Wonderous Items)
Basically, I use a trait, arcana, and feat to overcome the thought component of a spell (which actually fit the concept of my character, before I started thinking about this.) He won't be spell combating until level three, but at 3 he has:
3(level)+3(Int)+4(combat casting)+3(Weapon dilligence, if weilding Scimitar)+2 (Focused Mind)=+15
At level five he picks up craft wonderous (Again, I know not ideal) but he'll be able to craft Spellguard bracers and a tunic of careful casting (which stack, stupidly, because they are untyped bonuses) This nets him: a concentration of:
+5(level)+3(int)+4(combat casting)+3(Weapon dilligence)+2(Focused Mind)+4(Tunic and spellguard bracers)=21 (+26 if I can also get my hands on gloves of the elvenkind)
Again, I know none of this is ideal. However, remember, I am spending a feat, and arcana, and a trait to essentially negate the penalty for thought casting and not be restricted by being grappled/silenced. The only thing now is that I can't spellcast while under a negative emotion effect, and I have a low will save.
Does the archetype change the fact that spell combat occupies the offhand. Because if it doesn't, then the mindblade isn't really much better off than a regular magus who wears a spiked gauntlet or something in the off hand.
It does. "When using two-weapon fighting with two psychic weapons or a psychic double weapon, the mindblade can use her spell combat ability as though she had a hand free"
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It does. "When using two-weapon fighting with two psychic weapons or a psychic double weapon, the mindblade can use her spell combat ability as though she had a hand free"
Does the archetype change the fact that spell combat occupies the offhand. Because if it doesn't, then the mindblade isn't really much better off than a regular magus who wears a spiked gauntlet or something in the off hand.
OH CRAP! That's what I was missing about this class! That makes it good! Wow, that's . . . that's nuts!
I mean, spell combat + TWF is, like, -4/-4 to hit, but that's crazy!
The downside, of course, is that they can't be a finesse archtype to make use of that, and need to go strength based, but give up their armor training. I'm thinking the armor expert trait and mithril breastplate can clear that up, then make celestial armor at high levels. Add in a shield spell and I should be fine.
Oh my god, thanks for pointing that out!
Why can't they be a finesse archetype? By the time you can use two psychic weapons, you can also give them both agile weapon property.
While intensified spell doesn't work for you anymore, you can still use 5d6 shocking grasp for your early career identically. In mid levels you will have to branch out, but it is hardly the end of the world.
Why can't they be a finesse archetype? By the time you can use two psychic weapons, you can also give them both agile weapon property.
While intensified spell doesn't work for you anymore, you can still use 5d6 shocking grasp for your early career identically. In mid levels you will have to branch out, but it is hardly the end of the world.
So what sort of spells would you branch out with that actually use spell strike? Aside from the level 1 options, I see Vampiric Touch(not worth the 3rd level slot vs just using shocking grasp), frigid touch(decent debuff, but low damage dice) and...that's it. So really the only option if you actually want to use the spellstrike magus class feature in a worthwhile way is to spam frigid touch instead? Unless I am missing something?
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So what sort of spells would you branch out with that actually use spell strike? Aside from the level 1 options, I see Vampiric Touch(not worth the 3rd level slot vs just using shocking grasp), frigid touch(decent debuff, but low damage dice) and...that's it. So really the only option if you actually want to use the spellstrike magus class feature in a worthwhile way is to spam frigid touch instead? Unless I am missing something?Why can't they be a finesse archetype? By the time you can use two psychic weapons, you can also give them both agile weapon property.
While intensified spell doesn't work for you anymore, you can still use 5d6 shocking grasp for your early career identically. In mid levels you will have to branch out, but it is hardly the end of the world.
You get to make a full attack with two weapons while casting spells. Things like bull's strength, haste, heroism, dispel magic, things that are useful in combat while still full attacking. PLUS, the archetype gives you access to psychic spells as well, so take a look at the psychic spell list. Intellect fortres can basically breaks all mind-effecting effects for one round.
You get to make a full attack with two weapons while casting spells. Things like bull's strength, haste, heroism, dispel magic, things that are useful in combat while still full attacking. PLUS, the archetype gives you access to psychic spells as well, so take a look at the psychic spell list. Intellect fortres can basically breaks all mind-effecting effects for one round.So what sort of spells would you branch out with that actually use spell strike? Aside from the level 1 options, I see Vampiric Touch(not worth the 3rd level slot vs just using shocking grasp), frigid touch(decent debuff, but low damage dice) and...that's it. So really the only option if you actually want to use the spellstrike magus class feature in a worthwhile way is to spam frigid touch instead? Unless I am missing something?Why can't they be a finesse archetype? By the time you can use two psychic weapons, you can also give them both agile weapon property.
While intensified spell doesn't work for you anymore, you can still use 5d6 shocking grasp for your early career identically. In mid levels you will have to branch out, but it is hardly the end of the world.
So...spellstrike gets put on the back burner past fairly early levels?
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Something I was actually looking at making, on account of being insane, is a lance-wielding mounted combat single class magus. Yup!
Wayang for the race, 15/16/14/16/10/7 for starting stats. At level 3, grab the Familiar arcana, choosing a mauler. Probably going with owl for flavor. Manifest a lance with your arcana and deliver frostbites through charges. With a bonus feat at 5th to look forward to, you can get mounted combat, ride by, and spirited charge by that point if you want to- spirited charge, I may pass on initially.
You can't, unfortunately, take Improved Familiar on a Mauler for PFS. You can, however...backdoor it! With the Wasp Familiar feat for calistrians in DTT, you can get the imp statistics on a level 5 familiar, which then goes medium size. (18 Strength I think? Have to check).
Also included are a few Shadow spells for wayangs on the psychic list. While mainly just flavor.. shadow anchor could be fun. I may end up bumping CHA back to an 11 to make use of shadow magic.
Ah right, and I'll be wearing mithral full plate, as psychic spells have no ASF. :)
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The secret is forgetting Dexterity, getting Artful Dodge, and qualifying for TWF with your INT score.
If you want to use it mainly for shocking grasp, you should look into Spontaneous Metafocus
Why can't they be a finesse archetype? By the time you can use two psychic weapons, you can also give them both agile weapon property.
How? Agile isn't on the list of special abilities available through Arcane Pool.
You could manifest slashing weapons and take the Slashing Grace feat...
...and then you can't TWF with them and use the feat.
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How I'd build a Mindblade:
Dual Talent Human
S16+2 D12 C14 I15+2 W8 CH8
Traits: Who gives a s#%%
Feats:
LV1. Medium Armor Prof
LV3. Heavy Armor Prof
LV5. Artful Dodge, Power Attack
LV7. Two-Weapon Fighting (Just in time for Dual Weapons)
LV9. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
LV11. Critical Focus, Improved Critical
LV13. Double Slice
LV15. Two-Weapon Rend
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How I'd build a Mindblade:
Dual Talent Human
S16+2 D12 C14 I15+2 W8 CH8
Traits: Who gives a s*#!Feats:
LV1. Medium Armor Prof
LV3. Heavy Armor Prof
LV5. Artful Dodge, Power Attack
LV7. Two-Weapon Fighting (Just in time for Dual Weapons)
LV9. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
LV11. Critical Focus, Improved Critical
LV13. Double Slice
LV15. Two-Weapon Rend
This doesn't work as The armor proficiencies still have a spell failure chance. Here's the build I am going for:
Dual Talent human (Str 16+2, Dex14, Con12, Int14+2, Wis 12, Chr 7)
Traits: Focused Mind, Armor expert (aim for that mithral breastplate!)
Lvl 1, Combat casting
Lvl 3 Weapon prof-saw-tooth sabre
lvl 4 (+1 stat into dex)
lvl 5 Weapon focus (saw-tooth)
(Lvl 5 bonus, craft wonderous . . . I need cheap gloves of elvenkind/other concentration boosters, since all my concentration DCs are +10)
Level 7 Two weapon fighting (with Dual Saw-tooths)
Level 9 Double slice
Level 11 Weapon spec
How I'd build a Mindblade:
Dual Talent Human
S16+2 D12 C14 I15+2 W8 CH8
Traits: Who gives a s*#!Feats:
LV1. Medium Armor Prof
LV3. Heavy Armor Prof
LV5. Artful Dodge, Power Attack
LV7. Two-Weapon Fighting (Just in time for Dual Weapons)
LV9. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
LV11. Critical Focus, Improved Critical
LV13. Double Slice
LV15. Two-Weapon RendThis doesn't work as The armor proficiencies still have a spell failure chance. Here's the build I am going for:
Dual Talent human (Str 16+2, Dex14, Con12, Int14+2, Wis 12, Chr 7)
Traits: Focused Mind, Armor expert (aim for that mithral breastplate!)
Lvl 1, Combat casting
Lvl 3 Weapon prof-saw-tooth sabre
lvl 4 (+1 stat into dex)
lvl 5 Weapon focus (saw-tooth)
(Lvl 5 bonus, craft wonderous . . . I need cheap gloves of elvenkind/other concentration boosters, since all my concentration DCs are +10)
Level 7 Two weapon fighting (with Dual Saw-tooths)
Level 9 Double slice
Level 11 Weapon spec
Psychic spells, man. No Spell Failure
Why can't they be a finesse archetype? By the time you can use two psychic weapons, you can also give them both agile weapon property.How? Agile isn't on the list of special abilities available through Arcane Pool.
Fair call. Ruins that idea. Better off going artful dodge and having a high strength then, I guess!
Thank god my group allows for some third-party, my mindblade just needs to take a feat to make his two-weapon fighting feats strength based.
Another important problem, for this build and other psychic melee builds, like the vixen mesmerist, are the -10 to Concentration of the thought components. I have not testet it yet, but it seems to make builds like this nearly impossible, specially the Magus one. Wasting a move action to eliminate the -10 seems like a horrible idea for a Magus.
Thank god my group allows for some third-party, my mindblade just needs to take a feat to make his two-weapon fighting feats strength based.
Secret Wizard's strength build works just fine by using the Artful Dodge feat to get around the high DEX requirements. No third party feats needed.
Secret Wizard's strength build works just fine by using the Artful Dodge feat to get around the high DEX requirements. No third party feats needed.
Weirdly in my experience 3rd party is allowed more often than material from Player Companions so I'll still be using the third party over that build.
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This doesn't work as The armor proficiencies still have a spell failure chance.
ARCANE spell failure, you mean. ;)
Chill touch for 6 saves per round? Elemental touch, 6 saves for staggered? Even more Frostbite brokeness? Looks fun. The hit penalities however looks to be a big problem. I suggest avoiding PA like the plague.
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You have to go through a lot of effort to actually create a character that "isn't viable". People routinely play at a power level above what the game was built for, and that provides a huge buffer space. You'll do fine, and magi that aren't the bog-standard-cookie-cutter dervish dancer with intensified shocking grasp do just fine in the game, especially with a competent GM.
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Another important problem, for this build and other psychic melee builds, like the vixen mesmerist, are the -10 to Concentration of the thought components. I have not testet it yet, but it seems to make builds like this nearly impossible, specially the Magus one. Wasting a move action to eliminate the -10 seems like a horrible idea for a Magus.
You can deal with this either with Mirror Image, or by casting from outside melee range, then 5' stepping, then making your full attack. And since that doesn't work on enemies with reach, pick up reach yourself via Lunge / Lunging Spell Touch.
Concentrating is useful but not mandatory.
Thanks to this thread and Secret Wizard for helping me find an easier way to make my twf unarmed magus idea. I had never seen Artful Dodge before, nor did I really think of using the Mind Blade and its psychic casting with medium armor. Now if only one of my friends would run a campaign where I could use it....
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Indeed.
With the rather radical change to Slashing Grace, there are less variant Magus builds out there.
I wrote a Guide on the Magus to show there's much more to the class than keen intensified shocking grasp... spread the word :)
I feel like with Magus, the larger crit range of the Kukri may be worth it. But perhaps if you are not using blasts at all (going for the more buff route as mentioned) then I would do with the daggers.
Did you READ the archetype from top to bottom? If you had you would see the text that specifically says that you can do what no other magus can... spell combat with two weapon or double weapon fighting... and that's because unlike all other magi, this fellow is a psychic caster.Does the archetype change the fact that spell combat occupies the offhand. Because if it doesn't, then the mindblade isn't really much better off than a regular magus who wears a spiked gauntlet or something in the off hand.(yay, you can get two psychic swords for a class that will NEVER use two weapon fighting)You can actually do two-weapon fighting with mindblade since psychic casting doesn't require a hand-free.
Just be mindful of your positioning as concentration checks are hard for psychic casters. Combat casting really doesn't go to waste.