I wonder if they meant for Devoted Blade to work the same way as Bane Blade and just didn't word it right. On the other hand, Bane Blade has a higher level prerequisite, so maybe that really is supposed to be the way it is.For reference:
Bane Blade (Su): Whenever the magus enhances his weapon using his arcane pool, he may spend 1 additional point from his arcane pool to add the bane special ability to the weapon. The magus must be at least 15th level before selecting this arcana.
...
Devoted Blade (Su): Whenever the magus enhances his weapon using his arcane pool, he may spend 1 additional point from his arcane pool to add either the anarchic, axiomatic, holy, or unholy special ability to the list of available options. A magus may only add one of these abilities if it matches his own alignment. The magus must be at least 12th level before selecting this arcana
Considering they're on the same page of the same book my guess is that Bane is meant to be straight-up better.
If anything I'd say they meant for Bane to be worded like Devoted.
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Considering these are both relatively cheap anti-grapple items, is there nothing higher end you feel is worth considering once things like Freedom of Movement become available?
Otherworldly Kimono is good, if very expensive. I'm not really seeing any other good body slot items in the high price category.
It strikes me that the Xorn robe's ability is easily duplicated with Dimension Door. But +5 perception is good to have, and it stacks with Eagle Eyes.
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2 brief questions: Why does the guide say that Devoted Blade is redundant with Bane Blade?MrCha has already answered that. I feel it's probably not the intent that Bane Blade is "free" (but it's a great arcana either way).
Also, I notice the guide doesn't seem to have any suggestions for body slot items. Is that because you don't feel there aren't any that are worth their cost?The guide lists Corset of the Vishkanya and Alabaster Trapping, both of which are pretty good.
The Corset of Delicate Moves can also be good, for when you really need to use your arcane pool and another swift action in the same round.
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It’s a 1/day thing, so it’s not really meant for common situations. But being able to activate arcane pool and arcane accuracy, or arcane pool and hasted assault, or something similar, and still cast a spell or attack with your standard can be pretty good when it comes up. It seems more common than needing to squeeze (corset of the vishkanya) anyway. Available swift actions can be a bottleneck sometimes. Especially if it’s a magus that took arcane strike or some other option that requires a swift. Get all your buffs done in round 1, freeing up your swift for arcane strike in subsequent rounds.
I run a strength magus that more or less ignores spells combat (mind blade using an earth breaker, won’t have spell combat with it until 13th level), so on that kind of build it’s definitely a good option.
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Any reason the Locate Weakness spell isn't discussed in the guide? Seems like a fairly obvious pick for a Shocking Grasp/crit-fishing build; and if it's a trap, a warning would be all the more important.
It's not a trap, but its effect is fairly unimpressive, mathematically speaking. I'd rate it yellow.
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The corset is mainly for getting out of grapples and spells like Web, which are a fairly common and, depending on build, debilitating.
A Dex-based Magus shouldn’t have a problem with a Web spell, and a STR-based magus isn’t going to use escape artist to get out of it. For a grapple by a creature, I’ve rarely been in a grapple where I wanted to give up all of my attacks to try to escape instead of just full attacking the creature. If it’s something built to grapple, chances are better you’re going to kill it with a full attack or damage it enough that another party member will kill it on their turn than your chances to escape the grapple, even with a +5.
But it’s not really a this corset vs that corset issue (I shouldn’t have made it seem that way with my original comment). It was more that I can see them both being useful in niche situations. If one of the two appeals to you more, then go for it. I do think the corset of delicate moves deserves to be considered, given how easily swift actions can become a bottleneck for Magus. It’s probably better on an Inquisitor or maybe a Monk that might need a Ki power and a stance in round 1, but still potentially useful on a Magus.
EDIT: Although I will add that in thinking about it, the corset of the vishkanya might be the better choice for my Earthbreaker magus after all, since he tends to enlarge person himself, and a free action squeeze actually would be helpful for him. He’s unlikely to ever make use of the escape artist bonus, though.
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I’ve rarely been in a grapple where I wanted to give up all of my attacks to try to escape instead of just full attacking the creature.
That's true, except if your teammates can cast Liberating Command (it's on all major spell lists). If they do, then investing a few skill ranks (on an int-class) and a cheap item in Escape Artist checks is a fairly good deal. But as you say, spending a standard action to un-grapple yourself is only rarely a good tactic.
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You likely can't use the corset with liberating command. It's a free action to activate it. Most GMs I've played with won't allow free actions off turn except for a few exceptions (knocking an arrow if you've got AoOs with bows, speaking, etc.). So you aren't going to get the +5 from the corset unless you're trying to escape on your turn, and you're only using liberating command on your turn if you got grappled by an AoO somehow or moved into a black tentacles or something. Plus liberating command eats your immediate action, so it's just another situation where having the option to trade a move to get your swift back on your turn might be desirable. :)
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Fair enough. Magus probably has the INT to spare a few skill ranks. It's not a class skill for them, though, so it's going to be limited unless they're devoting a trait or getting it through a multiclass, which seems like a long way to go for something so situational. In any other circumstance besides liberating command, a STR Magus is probably just using a CMB check (or later dimension door) to escape, or as we said, just trying to kill the thing..
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Speaking of Bane Blade and the Magus' strained Swift Action budget: The more I think about it, the more I feel that whether it's blue or green, Bane Blade and Quickened Magic should be rated equally.
The reason why Bane Blade is rated "only" green is the existence of the Bane Baldric item, which does largely the same thing but numerous levels earlier.
Went back in The Guide to look up something else, and stumbled across the Red rating on Eldritch Knight. I'd be inclined to give Eldritch Knight (in the Out of Class Archetypes section, not the Prestige Classes section) a better rap in the high levels (naturally, it's still bad i the low levels). Compared to a Magus at level 13, an Eldritch Knight could have (depending upon martial dip and choice of initial arcane class):
•Usually worse attack rolls due to lack of Arcane Pool to enchant weapon with, I'll give you that.
•Usually same Fortitude (good), Reflex (poor), and Will (good) Saves; Swashbuckler dip switches Fortitude and Reflex Saves, and Ranger gets both good Fortitude and Reflex Saves while retaining good Will Save. Paladin/Antipaladin 2 + Sorcerer 6 into Eldritch Knight gets special mention for adding spellcasting modifier to all Saves, but that really hurts the spellcasting progression, pretty much mandating Favored Prestige Class + Prestigious Spellcaster + Magical Knack trait.
•Spell access (by character level, assuming you went 1 level martial dip first and DIDN'T spring for Favored Prestige Class + Prestigious Spellcaster) for (Eldritch Knight, Magus) is 1st level (2, 1); 2nd level (4, 4); 3rd level (6, 7); 4th level (9, 10); 5th level (11, 13*); 6th level (13*, 16); 7th level (15, -); 8th level (17, -); 9th level (19, -). If you are using Sorcerer as your arcane class, that moves Eldritch Knight back by 1 in all cases except 1st level spells. If you DID spring for Favored Prestige Class + Prestigious Spellcaster, that moves Eldritch Knight forward by 1 for getting access to 4th level and higher spells, unless you are using this to compensate for a 2 level martial dip (see Paladin/Antipaladin + Sorcerer above).
•Hit Points are 11 or 12 lower depending upon handling of first hit die (again assuming you DIDN'T spring for Favored Prestige Class + Prestigious Spellcaster, otherwise 1 or 2 if you did). Not sure how you get 18 hit points of deficiency -- maybe you didn't count favored class bonus of Wizard levels?
•Eldritch Knight does miss out on 4 Magus Arcana, but for actual feats, it's a wash at 13th level (and at several other levels), before including any bonus feats that the martial dip might have awarded (possibly prerequisite-free, depending upon the particular martial dip).
•Eldritch Knight with the right weapon (for example, Keen Fauchard) could also have Critical range 15 ~ 20 once Spell Critical kicks in at Character Level 16 (17 if Sorcerer or 2 level martial dip, 18 if both). While this is later, note that the Swift Action spellcasting you earn for successful Crit-Fishing is not limited to the target you hit -- the target of your strike just needs to be among that targets of the spell, and unlike the Quickened Magic Arcana, you can keep doing it as long as you keep successfully Crit-Fishing and you have spells to cast. Adminttedly, that's a long time to wait for this.
•No armored spellcasting (except for Armored Kilt, Dancing Scarves, or Haramaki) or Spell Combat, I'll give you that.
•Eldritch Knight gets Wizard Arcane School (or Sorcerer Bloodline) abilities, some of which are very nice and don't need a lot of levels in your arcane spellcasting class to be good (Diviner:Foresight, Evoker:Admixture, and Transmuter, I'm looking at you, and some Sorcerer Bloodlines have low level abilities that are still not too shabby at high levels either).
I see the Eldritch Knight not as a Magus substitute, but as something completely different, more like a way to build a Reach Arcane Caster doing the equivalent of a Reach Cleric, and thus depending upon somewhat delayed full casting and making Attacks of Opportunity with a two-handed Reach weapon (preferably also having a good Critical range, or otherwise Elven Branched Spear for +2 to Attacks of Opportunity), rather than trying to emulate Spell Combat. That said, Eldritch Knight is SLOW getting off the ground. So instead of marking it solid Red, I would give it a split rating like you do for some of the actual Magus archetypes: Red at levels 1 - 10, Orange at levels 11 - 15, and Green at levels 16 - onward.
All that said, one of the things I would have liked to have seen in Pathfinder 1st Edition would have been a Magus-Wizard backcross 2nd generation hybrid (implemented as an archetype of Magus) that would trade out some stuff (including armor proficiency and armored spellcasting) for getting a Wizard Arcane School and Arcane Bond (and be able to take Wizard archetypes that alter only these features), and cast from the Wizard spell list, and trade out Greater Spell Access for a 7th level spell slot at 19th level (2 of them at 20th level).
Separately but related to the above, another thing I would have liked to have seen in Pathfindner 1st Edition would have been a Magus-Sorcerer backcross 2nd generation hybrid (Sorcerous Magus) that would be distinct from Eldritch Scion. This would trade out some stuff (including armor proficiency and armored spellcasting) for getting a Sorcerer Bloodline (including its Bloodline Arcana, and including the option to get a Wildblooded or Crossblooded Bloodline or take any other Sorcerer archetype affecting only Bloodline) instead of a Bloodrager Bloodline the way Eldritch Scion does, and cast from the Sorcerer list (including getting bonus spells reasonably soon after getting access to the corresponding spell level), and again trade out Greater Spell Access for a 7th level spell slot at 19th level (2 of them at 20th level, and also get the 7th level Bloodline Spell at 20th level).
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Went back in The Guide to look up something else, and stumbled across the Red rating on Eldritch Knight.
That's a thorough analysis. What it adds up to is that a mid-to-high-level EK gets fifth-level spells two levels earlier, but has weaker attack rolls, saving throws, and hit points; no armor; substantially less feats+arcana; and no spell combat.
For a gish, this is a really, really bad deal. For a full caster, this is also a really bad deal; just play a full wizard instead. I don't think there's particular merit to a "reach wizard" that comes online at level 16; at that level, it doesn't really matter any more that your wizard has a longspear in his hand, and it costs a lot of resources that a wizard could use better.
Overall, this means that regardless of what you're trying to build, EK is not the way to do it; and that's why it's rated red. I'm sure you can somehow make it work in the right combo at a high enough level, but the prestige class just doesn't align with what players expect from it.
Attempting to stay somewhat with the flow of the thread, I wonder what thoughts are on pliant gloves? I didn't see them in the guide.
While it is unfortunate that they require a swift action to activate, any item that can nearly replicate a sought-after feat (Lunge) seems fantastic. They also have a useful static bonus (+5 to Escape Artist) and are only competing with a straight damage bonus increase in deliquescent gloves.
^Pliant Gloves unfortunately impose an attack penalty (-2), and don't give you much time per day. Long Arm doesn't impose a penalty, and it is on the Magus spell list at level 1, and even at 1st level already gives you as much time as the whole time available from Pliant Gloves (granted, without the flexibility to split it up). If you are an Eldritch Scion with the Aberrant Bloodline and at least 4th level, you can use the 4th level Bloodline Power instead, although that eats Arcane (actually Eldritch) Pool points really fast.
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Attempting to stay somewhat with the flow of the thread, I wonder what thoughts are on pliant gloves? I didn't see them in the guide.
My main thought is that they're much too expensive. They become available well after the Lunge feat, and the Magus has a lot of competition on swift-action abilities. So I don't think they're a very good pick; I'd rank them yellow.
Attempting to stay somewhat with the flow of the thread, I wonder what thoughts are on pliant gloves? I didn't see them in the guide.My main thought is that they're much too expensive. They become available well after the Lunge feat, and the Magus has a lot of competition on swift-action abilities. So I don't think they're a very good pick; I'd rank them yellow.
Thanks for your reply. Do you mean too expensive in terms of PFS?
I should have been more specific. My thinking is that for a dex-based debuffing Magus with Combat Reflexes, any additional reach bonus is a significant boon, as threatened square progression is nonlinear.
Ultimately, I am thinking of Pliant Gloves relative to other hand slot items; I don't see much competition other than Deliquescent Gloves and maybe Gloves of Storing? With prehensile tail, Gloves of Storing seem unnecessary, and while the damage bonus of Deliquescent Gloves is nice, the utility of Pliant Gloves seems preferable in this case.
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Ultimately, I am thinking of Pliant Gloves relative to other hand slot items
Yes, and I'm thinking of those gloves relative to all other items that you want.
For instance, if you have 33,000 gp, then you could technically afford the gloves, but you probably want magic weapon and armor, cloak of resistance, belt and headband, some scrolls and skill-boosting items, a pearl and a metarod, maybe those talismans or a nice hat... it adds up quickly, and there's a lot of items that are more price-effective than those 10,000 gp gloves.
That's why they're much too expensive.
That's why they're much too expensive.
Understood. I will move the hands slot further down the priority list. Thank you.
So I finally decided to start building UnarcaneElection's Weirdo Collection in one place, and decided to include the quick-and-dirty Whip build I posted above, but in the process refining it . . . and I realized that with a few changes, it can be a decent Hexcrafter build, letting me build something I've wanted to make for a long time: a Reach Witch. So here it is, as two builds in one: with no archetype if you want maximally efficient use of Spell Recall, or with the Hexcrafter archetype if you want to go the Reach Witch route by actually using a Magus (and apologies in advance about inconsistent inclusion of links -- I haven't gotten done with that part yet in my collection):
Magus (no archetype or Hexcrafter), Half-Elf with Ancestral Arms alternate racial trait replacing Adaptability to get Whip proficiency and Fey Thoughts (Escape Artist, Perception) replacing Multitalented.
15 Point Buy version: Str 10 / Dex (14 + 2 =) 16 / Con 14 / Int 15 / Wis 10 / Cha 8 (I hate dumping, but have to soft-dump here); all ability score increases go to Intelligence.
20 Point Buy version: Str 10 / Dex 16 / Con 14 / Int (15 + 2 =) 17 / Wis 10 / Cha 8 (I hate dumping, but have to soft-dump here); all ability score increases go to Intelligence.
Traits: Campaign Trait, Pragmatic Activator (get Wand of Mage Armor to use pre-Combat, and other Wands for out-of-combat utility).
Favored Class Bonus for no archetype: Add +1/4 point to the Magus’ Arcane Pool.
Favored Class Bonus for Hexcrafter: Skill Points for 1st 2 levels (use for the low-investment but potentially life-saving skills Climb and Swim), then add +1/6 of a new Magus Arcana thereafter (unfortunately can't choose this before level 3, because level 3 is when you get your first Magus Arcana).
Skill Ranks per Level: Total 4 for 15 Point Buy version or 5 for 20 Point Buy version: 2 for Magus, 2 or 3 for Intelligence 15 (15 Point Buy version) or 17 (20 Point Buy version) (in both cases, eventually get more).
Skills to Max: Acrobatics (delay acquisition until Intelligence increase at level 4), Escape Artist (critical due to low Strength), Knowledge (Arcana) (20 Point Buy version -- for 15 Point Buy version add this later when Intelligence increase permits), Perception, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device.
Other Skills (low investment but need to be non-0): Climb, Fly (eventually needs to be more than 1), Knowledge (all not listed above, and some eventually need to be more than 1), Sense Motive, Swim.
01: Level 1 character feat = Weapon Finesse; Half-Elf Ancestral Arms = bonus feat Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Whip); however, also carry a Rapier to use when a Whip is not effective, and also carry a Kukri as a backup weapon in case you get Grappled.
02: -
03: Level 3 character feat = Whip Mastery; level 3 Magus Arcana = Wand Wielder (get Wand of True Strike to use for Combat Maneuvers; resist the temptation to get a Wand of Ill Omen to debuff enemies that don't know about how to remove Ill Omen, which won't work very well, since you can't Spellstrike with a Wand, which doesn't matter in the case of True Strike).
04: Level 4 ability score increase goes to Intelligence; if using HexCrafter archetype, Spell Recall replaced by Level 4 Hex = Slumber Hex.
05: Level 5 character feat = Phalanx Formation; Level 5 Magus bonus feat = Combat Reflexes.
06: Level 6 Magus Arcana for no archetype = Prescient Attack -- this is important if you are fighting something like a Monk or a Pixie, or worse yet a Shadow or especially a Greater Shadow; level 6 Magus Arcana = Evil Eye Hex.
07: Level 7 character feat = Rime Spell (use most often with Frostbite); Tactical Adaptation come online and can be used to get a temporary Combat Feat, including Dirty Fighting until you get this as a regular feat at level 9, and then including the Improved Combat Maneuver feats unlocked by Dirty Fighting.
08: Level 8 ability score increase goes to Intelligence; if using HexCrafter archetype, Favored Class Bonus Magus Arcana = Misfortune Hex.
09: Level 9 character feat = Dirty Fighting; Level 9 Magus Arcana = Accurate Strike.
10: -; Paragon Surge comes online to add to Tactical Adaptation (see above, and optionally add Greater Combat Maneuver feats when using both spells), but can also be used for some other type of feat, including Extra Magus Arcana (Maneuver Mastery), which could be better than the corresponding Greater Combat Maneuver feat if you don't think you can get good use of teammates getting Attacks of Opportunity on whatever enemy you used Improved Combat Maneuver on (and would have otherwise used the corresponding Greater Combat Maneuver on); if using Hexcrafter archetype, you can alternatively use Paragon Surge for Accursed Hex or Extra Hex.
11: Level 11 character feat = Weapon Focus (Whip); Level 11 Magus bonus feat = Improved Whip Mastery; although not explicitly stated in the rules, assume that since Hexcrafter replaced Spell Recall with a Hex, it automatically degrades Improved Spell Recall (not explicitly altered by the archetype text) to Spell Recall.
12: Level 12 ability score increase goes to Intelligence; Level 12 Magus Arcana for no archetype = Devoted Blade; Level 12 Magus Arcana for Hexcrafter archetype = Ice Tomb Hex or Retribution Hex.
13: Level 13 character feat for no archetype = Greater Whip Mastery; level 13 character feat for Hexcrafter archetype = Split Hex.
14: - for no archetype; if using Hexcrafter archetype, Level 14 Favored Class Bonus Magus Arcana = Retribution Hex or Ice Tomb Hex (whichever one you did not get at level 12).
I thought about modifying this build for more direct damage dealing to complement the debuffing from Hexes rather than doubling down on debuffing, but if you're going to do that, you probably want a Strength-based build and a better weapon for doing damage, although that means Dexterity is going to have to give (reducing the benefit of Combat Reflexes), and options for doing Strength-based heavy-duty weapon damage with Reach aren't as good (although even with a Whip, Strength bonus is still Strength bonus -- it's just starting from a lousy base damage range). One option at high levels might be to stay Dexterity-based and get Heighten Spell to bring Frostbite back into relevance -- this suddenly makes it a debuff that is not only multi-touch but also multi-round (eventually also get Persistent Spell to bring Chill Touch back into relevance against Undead). This would give back a lot of rounds when you are not using Spell Combat, thereby letting you use Slashing Grace a fairly high fraction of the time (as well as letting you make your reservoir of spells last longer), and if you're mainly getting your hits on Attacks of Opportunity by having buffed your reach, then you can also still fit in Hex use in most rounds (you wouldn't want to cast another spell if you can avoid it, because that would hose the remaining charges of Frostbite or Chill Touch).
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Looks good! I'd suggest replacing Prescient Attack with Arcane Accuracy, which is generally better; and Evil Eye with the Flight Hex (there's no real need to have three debuffing hexes, and Misfortune is the one that isn't mind-affecting).
On a build like this, I'd want to get Greater Trip as early as possible. Also, consider the Shared Training spell for Tandem Trip.
^How did I miss THAT spell? That means anyone with this on their spell list gets to be a better Tactician than almost all classes having the Tactician class feature(*)! And as a Magus you can use Tactical Adaptation to snag any Teamwork Feat that is also a Combat Feat (including Tandem Trip), and Paragon Surge to snag any Teamwork Feat that isn't (except, in both cases, for the ones that have prerequisites that you don't have).
(*)Nobody beats Holy Tactician Paladin, who can keep doing it all day without using any spells or consumable resources, with Battlefield Presence (= Unlimited Tactician) starting at 3rd level, and even gets a decent number of bonus Teamwork Feats.
My thinking behind Prescient Attack was to let you hit extremely high-Dexterity targets. Although it does have the problem of needing to land a hit to get it going, so maybe I will go ahead and switch over to Arcane Accuracy, which is less powerful once each of these Arcana gets going, but doesn't need a jump-start to get going. Also, unlike a lot of Magus builds, this one has Intelligence really pumped, which makes Accurate Strike better . . . so Accurate Strike it is.
(Also just realized that Prescient Attack would be pretty good on a Greensting Slayer Magus, except that adding this to Greensting Slayer only succeeds in upgrading it from awful to merely bad. On the other hand, a real Sneak Attack class VMC Magus picking up Prescient Attack as their first Magus Arcana would be not too shabby, if they can find a use for the Spellstrike they get later -- like Unchained Rogue with Major Magic (Chill Touch or Frostbite).)
My thinking behind Evil Eye is that it is more versatile (actually several Hexes in one, and whether or not save against your first choice of debuff, you can try again with your second choice of debuff, even if you haven't gotten Accursed Hex yet) and lasts longer without a Cackle, while keeping Misfortune to help you land Evil Eye or Slumber -- although this only works starting at 8th level). Also, you can get Fly with a spell. Although if you end up also needing to cast Fly on other party members, it might be good to have the Fly Hex to save 1 casting of it, and it does have the added benefit of saving you from being taken temporarily out of the fight (and damaged) if an enemy casts Create Pit under your feet. And a free casting of Levitate to (including possible use on a heavy object) isn't totally useless . . . tough choices.
(By the way, note that of the 3 early Hexes Slumber also isn't Mind-Affecting. Only a surprisingly low fraction of Witch Hexes are Mind-Affecting.)
I thought about Improved/Greater Trip -- it depends upon what the most common enemies are in the campaign. If they are mostly Humanoids that aren't too big to trip and don't have flight(*), sure -- although if they are mostly users of manufactured weapons, you might want Improved/Greater Disarm instead. Improved/Quick Dirty Trick lets you debuff enemies that don't fall into the above categories (unfortunately can't also fit in Greater Dirty Trick with just 2 temporary feat spells). It depends upon the campaign whether any of these is going to be worth getting as permanent feats. Now on the other hand, depending upon Tactical Adaptation + Paragon Surge gives flexibility, but only changeable at the start of each day . . . unless you also have Emergency Attunement. So I should try to squeeze this in there somewhere -- with all of the options I put in for different debuffs, it might even be worth delaying Accursed Hex in favor of this.
(Edit: On second thought, to get this going REALLY early, I could delay Rime Spell for the late levels. Rime Spell on a 1st level spell is nice, but not earth-shaking. Rime Spell on a higher level spell, including a Heightened 1st level spell -- now we're talking.)
(*)For enemies that do have flight, I've also been refining the Ace Tripping Gunslinging Myrmidarch build that I posted earlier (while maintaining the build option to use something else if guns aren't available).
(*)Nobody beats Holy Tactician Paladin, who can keep doing it all day without using any spells or consumable resources, with Battlefield Presence (= Unlimited Tactician) starting at 3rd level, and even gets a decent number of bonus Teamwork Feats.
I really like the Exmplar Brawler. Martial Flexibility lets you grab any Teamwork feat, then you can share it. But yeah these spells basically let a Magus do that too.
(Also just realized that Prescient Attack would be pretty good on a Greensting Slayer Magus, except that adding this to Greensting Slayer only succeeds in upgrading it from awful to merely bad.
Honestly, I think that combo would make a Greensting Slayer decently playable ... if it worked.
Prescient Attack (Su) : The magus can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as an immediate action after hitting a target with a weapon attack, allowing him to anticipate his opponent’s defenses. The target is denied its Dexterity bonus against the magus’s attacks until the end of the magus’s next turn. The magus must be at least 6th level before selecting this arcana.
Arcane Pool: At 1st level, a greensting slayer can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as a swift action to add 1d6 points of sneak attack damage to his next melee attack that round. The attack must meet all of the usual prerequisites for making a sneak attack, as the rogue class feature. For every 4 levels beyond 1st, the amount of sneak attack damage dealt by this ability increases by 1d6 (to a maximum of 5d6 at 17th level). If a greensting slayer gets a sneak attack from another source, the bonuses on damage stack.
A greensting slayer cannot use his arcane pool to enhance his weapon. This modifies the arcane pool ability.
Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action and counts as your swift action for that turn.
So you can add 5d6 damage ... that isn't multiplied on a crit ... to one attack ... at level 17 ... once every 2nd round ... for the cost of 2 AP points ... and 2 swift actions ...
I wanted to like that archetype, I really did.
^I noticed that too after the time limit ran out for editing my post above. So the only way a Greensting Slayer can get multiple Sneak Attacks per round is by using Borrowed Time to get the extra Swift Actions needed, and to keep from hosing yourself by using it repeatedly, you need some way of becoming immune to Constitution damage (which cuts the damage to 5 Hit Points per use, which is acceptable).
(By the way, note that of the 3 early Hexes Slumber also isn't Mind-Affecting. Only a surprisingly low fraction of Witch Hexes are Mind-Affecting.)
I count 13: Beast of Ill-Omen, Charm, Combat Hypnosis, Discord, Evil Eye, Seduction, Slumber, Unnerve Beasts, Delicious Fright, Nightmares, Restless Slumber, Waxen Image, and Animal Servant. That's ~28% of all hexes with saving throws (46 in total), I'll let everyone decide for themself whether that counts as "surprisingly low fraction".
(By the way, note that of the 3 early Hexes Slumber also isn't Mind-Affecting. Only a surprisingly low fraction of Witch Hexes are Mind-Affecting.)I count 13: Beast of Ill-Omen, Charm, Combat Hypnosis, Discord, Evil Eye, Seduction, Slumber, Unnerve Beasts, Delicious Fright, Nightmares, Restless Slumber, Waxen Image, and Animal Servant. That's ~28% of all hexes with saving throws (46 in total), I'll let everyone decide for themself whether that counts as "surprisingly low fraction".
I was thinking it would be more (like at least 1/3, having not done an exhaustive count myself), because of the ways that a lot of Witch Hexes mess you up.
(By the way, note that of the 3 early Hexes Slumber also isn't Mind-Affecting. Only a surprisingly low fraction of Witch Hexes are Mind-Affecting.)Slumber explicitly works as the Sleep spell (except its HD limit), meaning it is mind-affecting.
I can see that, but since they explicitly label several Hexes (conveniently listed by Derklord) as Mind-Affecting, but DON'T list Slumber as Mind-Affecting, I thought Slumber got around that too. Although making it be explicitly Mind-Affecting would be a reasonable nerf/Errata(*) (and would fit thematically), since it is one of the most powerful entry-level Hexes.
(*)Could be that they just forgot to carry this over when they started putting descriptors in spell headers.
Whether or not slumber is mind-affecting (and it should be), an awful lot of things immune to mind-affecting also don't sleep. If you try to fire off slumber at a zombie it's not going to work regardless.
^Good point.
Edit: Just realized that with all the Hexes that can be modified by it in the above build, Soothsayer(*) might be good to squeeze in if possible, or at least snag with Paragon Surge, in case you're up against enemies that try to defeat Misfortune/Evil Eye/Retribution by doing hit-and-run attacks in which they run for long enough for the duration to run out, then come back and hit again, especially if they are high-speed ranged attackers.
(*)And no, I don't know of a better way of figuring out that indexing link on Archives of Nethys than looking at the page source.
Of the aforementioned 13 hexes, six say "This is a mind-affecting (X) effect". Beast of Ill-Omen, Combat Hypnosis, Slumber, Nightmares, and Animal Servant say they work as a spell that has the mind-affecting descriptior, and Restless Slumber does that by proxy by saying it "functions as the slumber hex". The remaining one is Waxen Image, which says "The is an enchantment (compulsion) effect", and per the magic rules, "All enchantments are mind-affecting spells."
Yeah I'm pretty sure Derklord is right on this one. "As the spell" should covver "Mind affecting".
Yeah I'm pretty sure Derklord is right on this one.
That sounded like a back-handed compliment. It wasn't meant to. Sorry Derklord =P
Point is: +1 what Derklord said.
I guess they really didn't get around to putting the Mind-Affecting tag on old material. (Add another wish to the list of things to wish they'd do for 1st Edition, that they're never going to do.)
Additional thoughts on comparing Shared Training to Tactician classes: you do have a trade-off (mainly in the low levels) of the spell not being able to grant very many allies the Teamwork feat -- in fact, it starts out at 1 per casting (spell is 2nd level, so a Magus could cast it as early as 4th level, and it shares to 1 ally per 3 caster levels, so 1 at this point). On the other hand, for most PC parties, 1 or 2 is probably enough for Teamwork Combat feats, but you might need multiple castings to cover something like Stealth Synergy (Teamwork but not Combat) that the whole party needs. Of course, this is assuming that you have the Teamwork feat already, and don't need to snag it with Paragon Surge. If you're a Half-Elven Magus using Paragon Surge (4th level for Magus, so requires 10th level) to snag Stealth Synergy, you have enough levels to share it to 3 other party members with 1 casting of Shared Training (if you have a size 5 party, then you can cover the party with 1 casting at 12th level), and you actually even have enough levels to be able to share out 2 Teamwork feats (the other one would have to be also a Combat Feat, so that you could snag it with Tactical Adaptation, or be a Teamwork feat that you actually have).
Now for an NPC or a mass summoning type or Undead master (the latter 2 of which would not be a Magus, but the former could be), this is a bigger deal, because then you're talking about poteentially needing to share a Teamwork feat out to a horde, and in that situation the spell won't cut it in 1 casting, and that is where the Tactician class feature really shines, despite its limited uses per day (again with the exception of Holy Tactician Paladin, which seems just brokenly overpowered, combining the best of both worlds and then some).
I know it's has probably been talked about but searching has turned up nothing; but would Spear Dancing Style work with a Nodachi and a SM/ES? Seems like it would; I apologize if this has already been brought up... just curious.
I know it's has probably been talked about but searching has turned up nothing; but would Spear Dancing Style work with a Nodachi and a SM/ES? Seems like it would; I apologize if this has already been brought up... just curious.
SM/ES?
With a nodachi: yes, technically, though it really shouldn't be in the polearm category. The thing's a big sword.
I don't know what SM/ES is either.
Stsff Magus/Eldritch Scion?
I think Spear Dancing Spiral shenanigans work with Staff Magus, but I don't really remember.
I don't know what Eldritch Scion would have to do with it, and I couldn't think of any other archetypes that "ES" might mean.
Am I close?
Spear Dancing Style and its successive feat chain steps have come up here a few times before, but the problem is that even though this technically works, it's just too many feats. Also, the Spear Dancing Reach part of this eats a Swift Action every round (which means you can't even start it in the same round you started Spear Dancing Style unless you are using Borrowed Time, a 6th level spell that is rather dangerous to the user). And Spear Dancing Reach ends at the end of your turn rather than at the beginning of your next turn, so you don't get to use it on your AoOs unless somebody somehow managed to provoke an AoO in the middle of your turn. I really wanted to like this feat chain, but you'd be hard-pressed to make it practical on a full martial, let alone a Magus.
I know it's has probably been talked about but searching has turned up nothing; but would Spear Dancing Style work with a Nodachi and a SM/ES? Seems like it would; I apologize if this has already been brought up... just curious.SM/ES?
Staff Magus/ Eldritch Scion; yes- I should have specified.
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The obvious first problem for a staff magus is that they're not proficient with a no-dachi which puts them down at least a trait (heirloom weapon); minor I guess. The first problem for an eldritch scion is that they want swift actions for their mystic focus, on top of enchanting the weapon with their arcane pool and spear dancing style. For either, it's not clear that double weapons can be used as double weapons one-handed. The rules are written assuming no such thing happens.
Regarding how the feats work out, let's try it with a human:
1: weapon finesse
Human 1: TWF
Staff magus 1: quarterstaff master
3: weapon focus (no-dachi)
5: spear-dancing style
Magus 5: spear dancing spiral
7: spear-dancing reach
9: ITWF
Which looks like it kind of works, just. No room for anything else tho'.
Assuming that you can use a double weapon one-handed and you're OK with spending all your feats and one of your traits on this, the swift action congestion is the biggest problem remaining. One swift action to start the style, one to enter mystic focus next round so you can use spell combat & bloodline powers (or vice versa with those two), and only on round 3+ can you use spear dancing reach or enchant your weapon; this is a problem. One of the tricks you paid for is unavailable and the other is only available on round 3+. You don't have the feats free for combat style master to speed it up. I don't like this, you may find it acceptable, I dunno.
The obvious first problem for a staff magus is that they're not proficient with a no-dachi which puts them down at least a trait (heirloom weapon); minor I guess. The first problem for an eldritch scion is that they want swift actions for their mystic focus, on top of enchanting the weapon with their arcane pool and spear dancing style. For either, it's not clear that double weapons can be used as double weapons one-handed. The rules are written assuming no such thing happens.
Regarding how the feats work out, let's try it with a human:
1: weapon finesse
Human 1: TWF
Staff magus 1: quarterstaff master
3: weapon focus (no-dachi)
5: spear-dancing style
Magus 5: spear dancing spiral
7: spear-dancing reach
9: ITWFWhich looks like it kind of works, just. No room for anything else tho'.
TWF; Weapon Finesse; and WF all require BAB +1 so it would eleventh level.
You are correct though; this is not useful at all for early to mid level games.
TWF requires only Dex 15 with no BAB prereq, weapon finesse has no prereqs at all. I think it might have required BAB +1 in D&D 3.0? G'night anyway, I'm off.
WEAPON FINESSE doesn't reuqire +1BAB ... neither does TWF.
EDIT: Ninja'd
WEAPON FINESSE doesn't reuqire +1BAB ... neither does TWF.
Sorry; got confused with 3.5e again.
would Spear Dancing Style work with a Nodachi and a SM/ES?
What's the actual goal here? Like, what are you actually interested in? Reach with a 18-20 weapon? The AC bonus from Quarterstaff Defense with a 18-20 weapon? Something else?
it's not clear that double weapons can be used as double weapons one-handed.
"When you wield it as a one-handed weapon, (...) you cannot use the staff as a double weapon." Since the one-handed stuff comes from applying Quarterstaff Master to the spear/polearm, that part is applied, too. Not that you could TWF with it anyway, as that options explicitly requires "a second weapon in your off hand", if you wield it in your main hand it can't be a weapon in your off hand.
hey're not proficient with a no-dachi which puts them down at least a trait (heirloom weapon); minor I guess.
It's only minor if your campaign has notable downtime because you have to give away your main weapon for days to have it enchanted, someone in the party has CMA&A, or if your camapign uses ABP.
I guess they really didn't get around to putting the Mind-Affecting tag on old material.
Er, what? What tags? I have no idea what you're talking about. Hexes don't have tags...
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I know it's has probably been talked about but searching has turned up nothing; but would Spear Dancing Style work with a Nodachi and a SM/ES?
I'm not sure why you'd want to? You'd spend four feats and your swift action each turn in order to get a reach weapon. That's a pretty bad tradeoff considering the Lunge feat exists.
We've talked about Spear Dancing Spiral before, I'm not aware of any shenanigans that actually work and are actually worth the cost.