Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus


Advice

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Heh, "Creaking Edifice" ^_^


Caemar wrote:

Meaning that while the range is technically compatible with spellstrike, all that means is that you can buff your allies by hitting them with your weapon.

Not sure they'll appreciate it, but hey, if they're into it, who am I to judge. :P

I wonder if anyone's played a whip magus like this? I have some vague memory of someone playing a drow crusader in D&D 3.5 who whipped her allies to distribute healing.


avr wrote:
Caemar wrote:
MrCharisma wrote:

Huh, I never noticed the 1/round clause in that spell.

I guess for most casters it doesn't make a difference, but for Magi it does.

If you compare it to spells like Produce Flame and Elemental Touch, those spells have a range of "personal" and the target is "you", making them incompatible with Spellstrike.

Makes me wonder if this is simply an oversight in the templating of Calcific Touch; I can think of no other spell with range "touch" that doesn't also have a duration of "instantaneous".

There's ghoul touch and a few others. And non-attack touch spells like resist energy. PF1 is a creaking edifice with inconsistencies like this all over.

Actually, I think I figured out how this works and have edited my post accordingly.

In the case of ghoul touch, I guess it would be more consistent if the duration was "instantaneous", and the 1d6+2 rounds duration of the paralyze effect was given in the description, like e.g. Frigid Touch, but I guess the intention is that the effect can be dispelled.


avr wrote:
Caemar wrote:

(Mostly) different topic: For a strength magus, what do you think of replacing a Bane Baldric with a Sash of the War Champion once the Bane Arcana comes online, to be combined with mithral plate armor for full movement speed?

Is the extra movement speed still worth the item slot and material commitment at that level?

A vanilla magus doesn't get armor training or bravery; a sash of the war champion does nothing for them. I'm pretty sure you need to have a fighter level for the respective class features to increase it via 'The wearer treats his fighter level as 4 higher than normal for...'. A myrmidiarch has no use for a sash of the war champion once they have bane blade - their armor training stops improving past level 14 and bane arrives at 15 minimum. We don't talk about the armored battlemage.

Actually, after reading up on it, the interpretation of the wording of SotWC seems to be controversial. So unless there's a FAQ I missed, I guess this comes down to GM ruling.

If, for the sake of argument, you assume that you can use the SotWC as a Magus... should you?


avr wrote:
Caemar wrote:

Meaning that while the range is technically compatible with spellstrike, all that means is that you can buff your allies by hitting them with your weapon.

Not sure they'll appreciate it, but hey, if they're into it, who am I to judge. :P

I wonder if anyone's played a whip magus like this? I have some vague memory of someone playing a drow crusader in D&D 3.5 who whipped her allies to distribute healing.

Yeah I remember a couple of people talking about it. It could be fun, but I've never really looked into it properly.


Caemar wrote:
avr wrote:
Caemar wrote:

(Mostly) different topic: For a strength magus, what do you think of replacing a Bane Baldric with a Sash of the War Champion once the Bane Arcana comes online, to be combined with mithral plate armor for full movement speed?

Is the extra movement speed still worth the item slot and material commitment at that level?

A vanilla magus doesn't get armor training or bravery; a sash of the war champion does nothing for them. I'm pretty sure you need to have a fighter level for the respective class features to increase it via 'The wearer treats his fighter level as 4 higher than normal for...'. A myrmidiarch has no use for a sash of the war champion once they have bane blade - their armor training stops improving past level 14 and bane arrives at 15 minimum. We don't talk about the armored battlemage.

Actually, after reading up on it, the interpretation of the wording of SotWC seems to be controversial. So unless there's a FAQ I missed, I guess this comes down to GM ruling.

If, for the sake of argument, you assume that you can use the SotWC as a Magus... should you?

For the sake of argument... assuming your speed comes from the overland flight spell at that level (15+), and you have haste in combat one way or another, it comes down to the difference between a 60' speed and a 70' speed in combat. If you're polymorphing for more speed it depends on the details and I don't have those memorised for high level polymorphs. So no IMO, but polymorphs might change that opinion depending on the details.

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avr wrote:
I wonder if anyone's played a whip magus like this? I have some vague memory of someone playing a drow crusader in D&D 3.5 who whipped her allies to distribute healing.

Off the top of my head, there's not a whole lot of buff spells that are (1) touch range and (2) short enough duration that you can't cast them before combat. There's, what, Vanish and Bull's Strength and maybe Displacement?

Caemar wrote:
If, for the sake of argument, you assume that you can use the SotWC as a Magus... should you?

Sure, assuming I'm a strength Magus of 7th level or slightly above, then it's affordable and lets me wear medium armor without the speed loss. That's decent but not amazing. A str-Magus could instead wear light armor (and use spells for defense) or wear medium armor with 20' base move (and use spells for movement).


Looking at the exact text of Sash of the War Champion, I have to come down on the side of those who say it does nothing for a Magus, with the following exceptions:

    •Myrmidarch Magus (has Armor Training, but no Bravery, so only 1/2 benefit).
    Armored Battlemage That which shall not be talked about (has Armor Training, but no Bravery, so only 1/2 benefit).
    •Magus VMC Fighter (has both features, and they are offset down by a few levels, so Sash of the War Champion compensates).

In all 3 cases (and even on a normal Fighter), this item only gives a benefit in a certain level range.


Can a mythic Magus dual wield two weapons if he has Component Freedom somatic and verbal and the mythic two weapon fighting feats?


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Drago Thrune wrote:
Can a mythic Magus dual wield two weapons if he has Component Freedom somatic and verbal and the mythic two weapon fighting feats?

No, no more than still spell on a non-mythic magus would allow the same, or that the mythic magus could wield three weapons. Spell combat has the one free hand thing written into it.


That makes no sense to me Avr, if thats the case no latter rule would supercede a earlier published rule. Even a specific rule like the sentence in spell combat.

Component freedom means you do not have to use those components when casting a spell. Still spells are far different than component freedom still spells are metamagic spells that affect spell levels where component freedom eliminates the need for spell component completely with out any penalty.


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^If Component Freedom had specific text that allowed you to get away with not having a free hand, you would be right. But it doesn't have that, and Spell Combat says you have to have a hand free to use it. For examples of specific abilities that DO override this, see Eldritch Archer (partially redundant Ranged Weapon Bond and Ranged Spell Combat, at 1st level), Mindblade (Dual Manifest, at 13th level), and Skirnir (Shielded Combat, at 8th level).

(Aggravated that I had to work late all the way through the weekend, so I can't post any of the builds I wanted to post here or elsewhere.)

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Drago Thrune wrote:
Can a mythic Magus dual wield two weapons if he has Component Freedom somatic and verbal and the mythic two weapon fighting feats?

Avr is correct; but also, why would you want to? Dual wielding gets you an extra attack at a -2 penalty on both attacks... but spell combat can also give you an extra attack at the same penalty. It also has the advantage that you need only one magic weapon, whereas dual wielding requires you to pay for both; and you can only enchant one of them with your arcane pool.

Ok, you can't use ITWF/GTWF this way; but that's a tradeoff and not a downgrade.


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I presume the idea was to gain bonus attack both from Spell Combat and TWF, but that doesn't work anyway - all attacks must be with one single weapon.

Drago Thrune wrote:
That makes no sense to me Avr, if thats the case no latter rule would supercede a earlier published rule.

Avr didn't make a blanket statement. There can be something that overrules the line in Spell Combat, but it has to use the same (general) language. If you want to use Spell Combat without a free hand, you need something that explicitly makes your hand count as free. Component Freedom doesn't contain the words "hand" or "free", and thus can't possibly do that.

The mistake you're making is that you're treating things that appear similar to be identical. You're probably thinking "the somatic component requires a free hand, and Spell Combat requires a free hand to cast a spell, so Spell Combat requires a free hand because of somatic components". That is not the case. There is absolutely no relation between somatic component and the free hand requirement of Spell Combat. And for that reason, no matter what you do to change the components, it can't possibly have an effect on the interaction with Spell Combat.

Oh, and by the way: If Component Freedom would work, then so would Still Spell, because they do work the same way.


Derklord if you don't need to use a hand to cast a somatic component your hand is free as it is not being used to cast a portion of the spell. Still spell and component freedom are totally different Still spell is a metamagic spell that for a penalty of one higher spell slot allows you to for go a somatic component. Component freedom eliminates having to use somatic components completely if you have chosen somatic component so by default your hand not on your sword is free. Soory for my tardy reply I got locked out of posting when my computer rebboted and would not let me log back into the message board till just now.

According to Hero Lab there is a mythic version of Spell combat but I have not been able to find it nay where so I am unsure if it exsists.


I located the Mythic Spell Combat and Mythic Spell Strike the are in Spheres of Power so I don't think they apply in the rules forum here they are.

Mythic Spell Combat
The magus can use a hand wielding a weapon to fulfill somatic components.

Mythic Spellstrike
The magus can use spellstrike to deliver spells with a defined target or number of targets (rather than an area) that are not touch spells. Only a single target struck by the magus’ weapon is affected, even if the spell normally affects multiple targets.


Drago Thrune wrote:
Derklord if you don't need to use a hand to cast a somatic component your hand is free as it is not being used to cast a portion of the spell.

And that has what to do with Spell Combat? You're still talking about whether the off-hand is used for casting the spell or not, but that's simply not relevant!

Drago Thrune wrote:
Still spell and component freedom are totally different

No they're not. They do the same thing in different ways. For stuff like whether you need to use a hand for casting the spell (which is what the discussion is about), there is zero mechanical difference. There's some interaction with the metamagic stuff (higher spell level, prolonged casting time for spontaneously cast spells), but that's not relevant for what we're talking about.

"A stilled spell can be cast with no somatic components."
"When you cast an arcane spell, you can ignore one component of the spell"

Very strictly RAW Component Freedom is actually worse, as the spell still has the component and you're just ignoring it. For example, the concentration rules say "Pinned creatures can only cast spells that do not have somatic components." As written, Still Spell allows you to cast spells while pinned, whereas Component Freedom doesn't. I'd say that falls under the "things should be different or they should be the same" umbrella, though (meaning Component Freedom allows it as well).


Hello!
I've been looking at this guide for a long while now, and the time to ask an important question has come:
due to unforeseen circumstances we're starting a new campaign tomorrow, we're gonna roll stat for some reason so no PB, but I'm kinda dead-set on card-caster+hexcrafter magus, while I have some theory-crafted builds for higher level we're gonna start from the very bottom, level 1 and starting gold rolled by class. Still unsure between Human and Elf, as the only info we got about the campaign is "be prepared for cold temperatures and lots of Ice".

Question #1: Can anyone give me a rundown on how should my first 3 level look like for equipment and feats? (I was thinking a chakram is good, but that reflex 15 to avoid damage in melee since I won't have returning or anything is scary), we might jump to lvl 2 very soon but not having spell strike forces me in melee.

Question #2: My idea to circumvent this, was to take Coin Shot, spell combat the spell (that allows a free throw) and attack with the second coin, next turn throw coin and cast spell, so on and so forth. Would that work?

Question #3: Since I'm in love with the coinshot, the spell says that "coins can be used as simple thrown weapons"... can I use WFocus on them? I take that by default the answer is no, but I have no actual idea. (A reddit thread states I can but... it's reddit :D)

Question #3.5: IF I can Wfocus the coins, they would be treated as thrown weapons under every aspect (while under the spell ofc) will I be able to spell strike with them? (obviously not in the same round as casting coin shot, feels obvious but I prefer to specify)

Question #3.5.2: Would it be possible to houserule, considering I'm a card caster, to consider a 54 coins puch like a deck of cards, for the purpose of enchanting with Arcane Pool? (yes, houserule can do everything, I'm more interested in upsides/downsides so that I can give a neat explanation to my DM :D)

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1. Well that's easy, you buy both a chakram AND a melee weapon (chakrams don't damage you when you THROW them). They're cheap. For other equipment, I suggest a bunch of scrolls; and mundane equipment, of course. The only magical gear you can really afford by level 3 is basic stuff like a cloak +1 or armor +1.

2. Yes, and note that you can also cast a spell the second round. That said, spells like Snowball or Magic Missile are probably more effective than Coin Shot, except at first level.

3. Officially no, since coins aren't listed on the weapon table. That said, it would not be unreasonable (and weapon focus is a fairly weak feat anyway).

4. Yes, you can spellstrike with them.

5. Yes, that is reasonable, as it deals comparable damage to firing arrows from a bow. And a card caster can definitely enchant his bow with arcane pool to have it fire e.g. flaming arrows.

HTH!


that DID help tyvm :D

the #3 was more of a scenario in which I'd make coin shot my gimmick, and go into C-Q thrower or some stuff, but I realized that "coins" are definitely not on the list for startoss anyway so nvm :D I liked the idea but it's definitely not-optimal and would require too much rule-bending.

Thanks for the clarification, it will save us a lot of time at the table in the near future :)


Great work: respect for your commitment.

Your Eldritch Knight assessement ignores two feats which transformed many prestige classes, the Favoured Prestige Class and Prestigious Spellcaster feats. SO now the E.K. not only gets 9th level spells (not 7th as you say, small typo), better spell breadth and utility and the hit point advantage is reduced (by the Favoured Prestige Class feat). Futhermore the E.K. is better over multiple encounters, the standard way a DM will reduce a magus's contribution.

SO for the cost of one level of fighter and two feats (more than recovered by the class) ten levels of E.K. get you 1 feat, diverse training, d10 hit points for ten levels, full BAB for ten levels and spell critical and are otherwise a full arcane caster minus one level. Underrated in my opinion.


^You get full BAB for 10 levels, but unfortunately before that you have 1/2 BAB for at 5 levels (Wizard or Witch) or 6 levels (Arcanist or Sorcerer) unless you came in with something that is a 3/4 caster (not a good idea for most prestige classes, including this one). And you also have to put in the Favored Prestige Class and Prestigious Spellcaster feat investment up front to avoid being even worse. So while you eventually get to be a pretty good Reach Arcane Fullcaster like a Reach Cleric (which at least used to be a popular build), you have a very long and painful start, and by the time you get good at it, in many campaigns you will be having to scramble to keep up with monster CMD and flying monsters (and the former will mean eating a lot of 5th level spell slots on Quickened True Strike, since you won't have Spell Combat even with VMC Magus, and if you make your martial dip be Magus, then you can't go VMC Magus to get Spellstrike, Enchanted Weapon, and Magus Arcana). I think Eldritch Knight could work for some really specific builds, but Magus is better unless your campaign is going to really high levels, and even then it's still better for stuff other than the Reach Arcane Caster shtick, even assuming you can keep that relevant at those high levels. Unfortunately, the Orc Scarred Witch Doctor rewrite killed one of said really specific builds (with +4 Strength and Constitution as your casting stat, you would actually be able to power through the painful low levels and maybe even make a go of it up into the mid levels even without the Eldritch Knight prestige class, but Paizo unfortunately decided that we weren't allowed to have a Witch who can't spell, even though they later introduced the Seducer).

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strayshift wrote:
SO for the cost of one level of fighter and two feats (more than recovered by the class)

Bear in mind that we're comparing the EK not to a blank generic class, but to the Magus, who gets bonus feats and arcana (which are effecitively feats too).

The two main issues with EK are that (1) most campaigns do in fact start at rather low level, and where the Magus is up-and-running by level two, the EK is decidedly not; and (2) a full caster with 7th- to 9th-level spells has no real need to wave a sword around, nor to spend substantial resources on becoming better at melee.


Kurald Galain wrote:
strayshift wrote:
SO for the cost of one level of fighter and two feats (more than recovered by the class)

Bear in mind that we're comparing the EK not to a blank generic class, but to the Magus, who gets bonus feats and arcana (which are effecitively feats too).

The two main issues with EK are that (1) most campaigns do in fact start at rather low level, and where the Magus is up-and-running by level two, the EK is decidedly not; and (2) a full caster with 7th- to 9th-level spells has no real need to wave a sword around, nor to spend substantial resources on becoming better at melee.

Sure BUT the guide states THESE are the advantages over E.K. and the two feats I reference rewrite that. SO THE GUIDE HAS DATED. Likewise the Eldritch Archer is worth consideration here too.


^Those feats don't really invalidate what the guide says -- I'd bump Eldritch Knight up to a mixed color (higher color for the really high levels), but in the low levels, you are going to be hurting for being out 2 feats (that the Eldritch Knight bonus feats have just barely started to compensate for) and still having lousy BAB and no Arcane Pool, Spell Combat, or Spellstrike to compensate, and no armor class improvement feature, so until you get into the really high levels, the rating needs to stay Red.

Eldritch Archer is already rated Brilliant Blue. If you meant the Arcane Archer prestige class, that's partially redundant with the Eldritch Archer archetype -- it does offer some class features that Eldritch Archer doesn't, but it also stops progression of Magus class features other than spellcasting, and even delays that at levels 1, 5, and 9, so again you're going to be out some feats if you want to compensate. Arguably, if you really have your eyes on the Antimagic Shell Imbue Arrow cheese, it might be worthwhile to dip 2 levels in Arcane Archer for that and just eat the 1 level delay in spellcasting progression; however, everything before Arcane Archer 5 other than Imbue Arrow and Seeker Arrow is partially redundant with Eldritch Archer or Card Caster, and Seeker Arrow is just once per day unless you go beyond a 4 level dip, although admittedly the Enhance Arrows abilities would save you on Arcane Pool points if you need these for other things (on the flip side, as an Eldritch Archer, your Arcane Pool can do better than these abilities, and dipping out of Magus also suspends growth of your Arcane Pool). As far as I can tell (even though it seems a bit weird), you can use Arcane Pool enhancement on a ranged weapon even if you are not an Eldritch Archer or Card Caster.


For a magus - eldritch knight is bad, I agree with Kurald.

* The magus compensates for not having full BAB by raising the enhancement bonus of their weapon using their arcane pool; eldritch knight fails to advance that so its full BAB doesn't benefit the character as much as you'd think.

* EK gets 3 bonus combat feats in 10 levels, but a magus would get 2 in that time if they take the prestige class from character level 8-17, and also 3 magus arcana which are worth a feat each.

* Spell critical is nice, but it's character level 17 which is honestly after PF stops working well.

* Improved spell recall & heavy armor (or whatever your magus archetype has replaced those with) are also nice, and more arcane pool points is nice too.

* The EK-only feats arcing weapon/explosive weapon don't add enough to a magus to be worth getting.


Finally, I got just enough time to hose my sleep cycle yet again by doing the Calcifier build I wanted to do above. Surprisingly, I actually managed to work in some effectiveness against hordes of minions as well as against bosses, the latter including Giants, Fiends, and Dragons, the latter two of which have serious Spell Resistance (especially Wyrm Dragons). Again, apologies in advance for not yet having finished consistently putting in all the feat and spell links.

Magus, Elf, The Whirling Calcifier:

Magus (Staff Magus), Elf with the Blended View alternate racial trait replacing Keen Senses (to get Darkvision), and the Shadowhunter alternate racial trait replacing Weapon Familiarity to be able to fight Incorporeal creatures (even without a Ghost Touch or other magic weapon -- use Chill Touch to make some of them run away) and recover better from Undead attacks.

15 Point Buy version: Str 14 / Dex (13 + 2 =) 15 / Con (14 - 2 =) 12 / Int (15 + 2 =) 17 / Wis 09 / Cha 07 (I hate dumping, but it is unavoidable here without higher point buy); increase Intelligence at level 4; increase Dexterity at level 8; increase Intelligence thereafter.

20 Point Buy version: Str 15 / Dex (14 + 2 =) 16 / Con (14 - 2 =) 12 / Int (15 + 2 =) 17 / Wis 10 / Cha 07 (I hate dumping, but it is unavoidable here without higher point buy); increase Intelligence at level 4; increase Strength at level 8; increase Intelligence thereafter.

Traits: Campaign Trait, Pragmatic Activator (get Wand of Mage Armor to use pre-Combat, and other Wands for out-of-combat utility).

Favored Class Bonus: Skill Points for 1st 2 levels (use for the low-investment but potentially life-saving skills Climb and Swim), then add +1/6 of a new Magus Arcana thereafter (unfortunately can't choose this before level 3, because level 3 is when you get your first Magus Arcana).

Skill Ranks per Level: Total 6: 2 for Magus, 1 for Cunning feat (retrained once intelligence increases at level 4), 3 (eventually more) for Intelligence 17; also gets 1 extra Skill Rank from Favored Class Bonus at each of levels 1 and 2.

Skills to Max initially: Perception, Knowledge(Arcana), Knowledge(Local), Spellcraft, Use Magic Device.

Skills to add as much as possible to, and then Max after Intelligence increase at level 16: Knowledge (Planes).

Other Skills (low investment but need to be non-0): Climb, Fly (eventually needs to be more than 1), Knowledge (all not listed above, and some eventually need to be more than 1), Sense Motive, Swim.

01: Level 1 character feat = Cunning (need the skill points); Staff Magus bonus feat = Quarterstaff Master.
02: -
03: Level 3 character feat = Dodge; level 3 Magus Arcana = Wand Wielder (get Wand of True Strike to use for Combat Maneuvers).
04: Level 4 ability score increase goes to Intelligence; retrain Cunning to Mobility; Spell Recall comes online and will be very important in case you need to recast a critical spell -- do not take an archetype that impairs this.
05: Level 5 character feat = Spell Penetration (get started on becoming able to fight things having Spell Resistance -- this stacks with Elven Magic); level 5 Magus bonus feat = Rime Spell -- use initially with Frostbite.
06: Level 6 Magus Arcana = Prescient Attack (for fighting something like a Monk or a Pixie, or worse yet a Shadow or especially a Greater Shadow, although unfortunately Prescient Attack needs a successful hit in the first place to get it started, so you might have to Wand Wield a True Strike first to get it started).
07: Level 7 character feat = Spring Attack -- use this with high speed that you get from Haste to lay hits and bad touches on opponents without them being able to retaliate, even if they have Reach (unless their Reach is insanely long); Tactical Adaptation also comes online, but hold off on this until you have Haste covered.
08: Level 8 ability score increase goes to Dexterity on 15 point buy or to Strength on 20 point buy; Favored Class Bonus Magus Arcana = Accurate Strike.
09: Level 9 character feat = Greater Spell Penetration (become even more able to fight things having Spell Resistance); Level 9 Magus Arcana = Accurate Strike (use against very heavily armored enemies like Dragons).
10: -; use Greater Invisibility to thwart highly mobile foes from retaliating, and stack it with Mirror Image in case you get Glitterdusted, and stack THAT with Displacement so that it is harder for enemies to hit you AND your Mirror Images.
11: Level 11 character feat = Dimensional Agility (so that you can use Dimension Door and attack inn the same round or have a fighting chance of casting Dimension Door to get out of a Grab/Grapple); level 11 Magus bonus feat = Combat Expertise (a feat tax for Whirlwind Attack, but you can use Blade Tutor's Spirit to mitigate the attack penalty); since you will only be using Whirlwind Attack when facing hordes of enemy minions, use Tactical Adaptation to get it temporarily (until you can get it permanently later on) so that you can debuff a horde of enemy minions with Chill Touch or Rime Frostbite; Improved Spell Recall comes online and will be very important in case you need to recast a critical spell -- do not take an archetype that impairs this, because you WILL end up needing to recast Bad Touch spells like Calcific Touch if you had to recast some critical buff that got dispelled (which itself is likely to require Improved Spell Recall) or to recast Dimension Door if an enemy is getting away or if you need to get away.
12: Level 12 ability score increase goes to Intelligence; Level 12 Magus Arcana = Maximized Magic (normally bad due to the once per day limit, but you are going to need this to make Calcific Touch do reliable Dexterity Damage to once per day bosses in a couple of more levels).
13: Level 13 character feat = Piercing Spell -- some boss enemies like Wyrm Dragons and very high level Fiends have insane Spell Resistance, and you will need this in addition to all the other bonuses you have for overcoming Spell Resistance.
14: Favored Class Bonus Magus Arcana = Spell Blending (Calcific Touch, Dimensional Anchor) -- most Giants and the great majority of big Dragons other than Linnorms have awful Dexterity, and a Maximized Calcific Touch (with Piercing Spell for Dragons) will turn them to stone in 2 or 3 touches, with no Save (the Save is only good against the Slow effect); Lesser Globe of Invulnerability is Dispel Magic bait -- enemies have to dispel it first before removing your other buffs (including held charges of Calcific Touch); Dimensional Anchor is to keep enemies from teleporting away (with no Save) before you can finish turning them to stone; try to get a Staff of Abjuration for Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, but if you can't get this Staff, get a few Scrolls of this spell so that you can cast and if necessary recast it using your hefty Use Magic Device modifier.
15: Level 15 character feat = Whirlwind Attack (same use as before, but now you don't need to use Tactical Adaptation to get it); level 15 Magus Arcana = Quickened Magic(normally bad due to the once per day limit, but you are going to need this for quick recasting of spells that are too high level to use with Quicken Spell), including Calcific Touch and your higher level buffs.
16: Level 16 ability score increase goes to Intelligence.
17: Level 17 character feat = Dimensional Assault; level 17 Magus bonus feat = Quicken Spell (use this for fast recasting of low level buffs like Shield and Mirror Image, so that you can save Quickened Magic for the higher-level spells, which will potentially include Dimension Door until you get to level 19).
18: Level 18 Magus Arcana = Reflection (9th level spells can be extremely nasty -- you want to be able to reflect them).
19: Level 19 character feat = Dimensional Dervish -- Swift Action Dimension Door without needing Quicken Spell or Quickened Magic.
20: Level 20 ability score increase goes to Intelligence.


Not bad at all UAE, but you're assuming more spells up at once than I'm entirely comfortable with - you may not get time to cast three defensive buffs, haste (or blade spirit or tactical adaptation) and a touch attack spell in many combats. And most of those are rounds/level so casting in advance is unlikely. PF combat can take a lot of real time, but usually once 3 rounds are done the battle is decided even if there's cleanup still to do.

Also (personal preference) I like empower spell as a feat because it can potentially boost so many things. Mirror image is better with more images, frostbite loves it, endgame it can even boost calcific touch.

With whirlwind attack you might be better to go for arcane accuracy than prescient attack. It applies to all targets not just one and it doesn't require a hit. You probably only need one attack boost arcana too, after getting one spend the next arcana on empowered magic or flamboyant arcana or something.


^Good catch on Arcane Accuracy vs Prescient Attack in combination with Whirlwind Attack. I'll fix it shortly in the archived version.

If you're going up against something like a Wyrm Dragon, you have to prepare, including multiple buffs (including Energy Resistance and Protection from Energy, that I didn't even mention). If they catch you unprepared, your only survivable option is to get out of there. And when you prepare, you have to do the job in short order (hence Calcifying Touch to hit one of their worst weaknesses), or you will end up as a snack. Wyrm (or close to Wyrm) Dragons do insane amounts of damage when they hit (Full Round Attack = average 125 HP for a Wyrm Black Dragon, or Greater Vital Strike on Bite = average 54 HP), and you CAN'T get enough Armor Class to keep them from hitting, so you need every trick in the spellbook to keep them from hitting the right target (and a support crew that can get you Resurrected/Reincarnated if the Dragon gets lucky in spite of all that). They also have a Sorcerer's arsenal worth of spells. Another thing I didn't say above: Don't even think about trying to engage them in the open air -- they fly with a speed you can't come close to matching short of Wind Walk (and you can't fight in Wind Walk cloud form anyway) and can strafe you with their Breath Weapon, so you need to ambush them in their lair, or when they invade somebody else's lair.

Linnorms don't do as much regular attack damage for a given CR, but their poison really hurts, and unlike most Dragons, they have good Dexterity scores even when Colossal, so stay away from those.

Most Giants are much less of a threat to kill you in 1 or 2 rounds, and you can survive a few hits from them even if not fully buffed (and they still might miss even if you aren't), and they might miss, so you don't absolutely have to set up a hit job on them the way you would on a high-end Dragon, and you could even fight them out on open ground, and even win against them without something like Calcific Touch (that said, Calcific Touch would make it a lot quicker, and would enable you to fight several of them in succession or even fight a few at once by using hit-and-run attacks).

Mountain Giants are a special case (they have a high Dexterity, and they have a humongous total attack bonus and do insane damage with a full attack or Improved Vital Strike). You have a decent chance to win against one with a hit job setup if you can first stock up on a couple of Scrolls of Dazing Persistent Fireball (or other Reflex-targeting mid-level damage spell), since unlike high-end Dragons they have a mediocre Reflex Save and no Spell Resistance. If you do manage to win against one, judging from the lore, you might be able to avoid most fights with the other Giants -- Mountain Giants are the monsters other Giants tell tales about to scare their children into behaving properly.

High-end Fiends are in between -- Spell Resistance and total attack bonus and DPR not quite as insane as high-end Dragons, and slightly less insane Armor Class, and less diversity of spells, but having some nasty Supernatural and Spell-Like Abilities, usually including Teleport/Dimension Door (hence your need for Dimensional Anchor, although some Dragons can do this too using their spells); usually much better Dexterity scores, but worse Reflex Saves. Hmmm . . . maybe I should try to pop out a couple of other things to squeeze in a Dazing Spell and Spell Perfection, although with Fiends, Energy Immunity or really high Resistance will be a problem. Stay away from the highest-end Fiends unless you can set up a hit job.

Edit #1: Additional thoughts: Comparing a Magus to a 9/9 caster for the Calcifier's job: An Arcanist, Wizard, or Sorcerer has access to higher level spells and thereby more headroom for Metamagic (including Reach Spell to avoid the need to get into melee), and doesn't need Spell Blending to get spells like Calcific Touch; on the other hand, Sorcerers will have a hard time using Metamagic (Arcane Bloodline mitigates), while Wizards are at risk for running out of crucial spells even while having a larger reservoir of total spells; Arcanists are probably best off in this. Witches will rule over Giants, but won't be able to make any of their Hexes stick on a high-end Dragon even with the use of Quickened Ill Omen, and can't get Calcific Touch for the quick cheesy kill. Again, Fiends are somewhere in between. Also, the Magus has better survivability against these opponents, although less headroom for Reach Spell is a significant tax on survivability.

Edit #2: Like I said several posts ago (but turned people off by the lack of paragraph breaks), Calcific Touch is brokenly powerful against a fairly large subset of otherwise very tough opponents (the more powerful non-Linnorm Dragons get, the more vulnerable they become to Calcific Touch), even after getting past confusion caused by the unusual restriction in its descriptive text. This spell should really allow a Save against the Dexterity Damage effect, not just against the Slow effect. Maybe should be level-bumped as well even with the Save applying against the Dexterity Damage effect.

Edit #3: To answer your comment on Empower Spell -- I thought about Empower Spell and Intensified Spell, but I couldn't squeeze those feats into the build without cutting out something big (like the lead-up to Whirlwind Attack).


^Just realized I shortchanged myself of a Favored Class Bonus Magus Arcana at level 20 -- make this Bane Blade or Devoted Blade, depending upon campaign.


UnArcaneElection wrote:
If you're going up against something like a Wyrm Dragon, you have to prepare, including multiple buffs (including Energy Resistance and Protection from Energy, that I didn't even mention). If they catch you unprepared, your only survivable option is to get out of there. And when you prepare, you have to do the job in short order (hence Calcifying Touch to hit one of their worst weaknesses), or you will end up as a snack. Wyrm (or close to Wyrm) Dragons do insane amounts of damage when they hit (Full Round Attack = average 125 HP for a Wyrm Black Dragon, or Greater Vital Strike on Bite = average 54 HP), and you CAN'T get enough Armor Class to keep them from hitting, so you need every trick in the spellbook to keep them from hitting the right target (and a support crew that can get you Resurrected/Reincarnated if the Dragon gets lucky in spite of all that). They also have a Sorcerer's arsenal worth of spells. Another thing I didn't say above: Don't even think about trying to engage them in the open air -- they fly with a speed you can't come close to matching short of Wind Walk (and you can't fight in Wind Walk cloud form anyway) and can strafe you with their Breath Weapon, so you need to ambush them in their lair, or when they invade somebody else's lair.

Dragons are certainly under-CRd to make them scarier opponents, but short of scry-buff-teleport (nerfed as of Ultimate Intrigue), what makes you think a dragon is going to let you spend a minute powering up before an attack? They should notice and either attack before you're ready or bug out for a few minutes to let your buffs wear off, or try collapsing your hideout on top of you or something. A wyrm dragon is perceptive, wise and smart, and has multiple options available to them.

IME the considerable majority of encounters will not allow you to spend multiple rounds buffing before engaging. Plan with that in mind!


Scry-buff-teleport is a possibility. Of course, you don't want the Dragon to know you're powering up until it's too late. If you can't catch them when they are asleep, you might have to do something like arrange for a distraction that's serious enough to occupy their attention for a few rounds; alternatively, let them arrange their own distraction while they are busy rampaging through whatever poor victims they are attacking (this also provides you with a built-in alternative to scry-buff-teleport). If they become afraid to leave their base (perhaps because your reputation has preceded you . . . probably best to avoid cultivating a reputation), then you have bought time to save lives by evacuating people from the place where they would attack (just keep a careful watch on the evacuation routes, and if possible don't evacuate people that are in groups that are too large, although in some bad areas that might not be possible).

Yes, if you're up against a Wyrm (or near-Wyrm) Dragon, you're probably going to have to have a support crew the rest of your party in on this. And be ready and willing to bug out yourself if something goes wrong.


I am working on filling in a character sheet for every AP (Summer time fun), and want to make a Fanglord (Skinwalker) Kensai for Legacy of Fire.

I eventually want to combo off Violent Display with Iaijutsu Focus

Race: Fanglord (Skinwalker)
Racial abilities:
Favored class bonus: +1 HP
Traits: Bruising Intellect

Arcana
- 3 (Class) -
- 6 (Class) -
- 9 (Class) -
- 12 (Class) - Spell Blending: Calcific Touch
- 15 (Class) -
- 18 (Class) -

Feats
- 1 (Bonus)- Weapon Focus: Scimitar
- 1 )Level) - Weapon Finesse
- 3 (Level) - Dervish Dance
- 5 (Level) - Intensified Spell
- 5 (Bonus)-
- 7 (Level)- Dazzling Display
- 9 (Level)- Violent Display
- 11 (Level) - Dimensional Agility
- 11 (Bonus)- Shatter Defenses
- 13 (Level)-
- 15 (Level)-
- 17 (Level)-
- 17 (Bonus) -
- 19 (Level) -

This is just the bare bones of the build and I was hoping people here could help me flesh it all out


Minigiant wrote:
I eventually want to combo off Violent Display with Iaijutsu Focus

Just FYI drawing your weapon with Iaijutsu Focus is a Swift Action, and Violent Display is an immediate action, so you can't do them both in the surprise round.

Weirdly you can if an enemy provokes an AoO before you act since Iaijutsu lets you draw for free as part of the AoO.

The obvious fix is Quickdraw, or to just have your weapon out (Honestly Quickdraw seems good on a Kensai anyway - the Swift Action is valuable).


You're going to want disheartening display or signature skill (intimidate) if you're throwing around AoE demoralizes like this frequently.

Empower spell is IMO worth getting for a magus.

Your swift/immediate actions are going to be taken rather often, avoid arcana or feats that require them. Familiar, natural spell combat (bite), planar hunter and devoted blade are some arcana which don't break your action economy.

Wasn't Legacy of Fire written for D&D 3.5 tho'? Was it rewritten for PF at some point?


Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
avr wrote:
Wasn't Legacy of Fire written for D&D 3.5 tho'? Was it rewritten for PF at some point?

Not by Paizo


Since you have the prerequisite feats Weapon Focus and Dazzling Display and are a Fanglord Skinwalker, check into Motivating Display that is also available to you. How good this is will be dependent upon the rest of your party, and unfortunately it doesn't scale, but it could be good in the low-mid levels -- move Dazzling Display up to your other 5th level feat slot, and get Motivating Display at 7th level; or even move Intensified Spell back to 7th in exchange for getting Motivating Display at 5th level (Intensified Spell is of use at 6th level, but not at 5th level, unless you get some kind of Caster Level boost I missed).

Bladebound is an archetype that is not too shabby that you can combine with Kensai. In exchange for the Black Blade weapon abilities, it slows your Arcane Pool progression to 2/3 the normal rate, and consumes your 3rd level Magus Arcana.

For your Campaign Trait, Finding Haleen is one of the most powerful Campaign Traits (being equivalent to 1.5 times a whole normally Human-only feat = Fast Learner -- get 1 Hit Point AND 1 Skill Point per level on top of what you would normally get, including your Favored Class Bonus, and even if your GM says that IS your Favored Class Bonus, it's still equivalent to the whole Fast Learner feat) available in this AP (and one of the most powerful Campaign Traits altogether). If you can't fit that one in, Earning Your Freedom is certainly servicable, being exactly equivalent to half of your choice of Great Fortitude, Iron Will, or Lightning Reflexes (and it stacks with its equivalent among these).

Note that the Favored Class Bonuses for Skinwalkers listed on www.d20pfsrd.com are from Jon Brazer Enterprises, not Paizo. That doesn't mean that they are bad, but check with your GM about acceptance. Of course, if you're taking Finding Haleen as your Campaign Trait and your GM nerfs it by ruling it to be only equivalent to Fast Learner, it's still so powerful as to render the other Favored Class Bonuses obsolete.

If you're willing to wait 1 more level before getting Calcific Touch (use Extra Magus Arcana to get Spell Blending at 13th level, when your highest level of spells advances to 5th level, instead of at 12th level), you can get 2 spells of 4th level or lower instead of just 1. Considering that you will be dealing with Outsiders, Dimensional Anchor (also 4th level) is not a bad choice for the other spell.

Since you're probably going to be Crit-Fishing, Accurate Strike is a good 9th level Magus Arcana -- resolving your attacks as Touch Attacks will improve your chances of Crit confirmation. (Side note: Looking back through my last build, I just realized I accidentally typed Accurate Strike in 2 places. See below.)

Not sure if you've already seen this, but a Kensai-specific Magus guide is available to build upon what you've already seen in this one, although it's rather out of date.

On the previous topic, of fighting a Dragon as a Magus: By a remarkable coincidence . . . .

Edit related to that: In my previous build: Level 8 Favored Class Bonus Magus Arcana = Spell Shield, for when you can't get the Shield Spell up, including when you need to reduce the amount of time needed for power-up. Can't get Accurate Strike until Level 9 anyway, where I had it already.


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Hope this isn't too silly a question, but... relative to the ratings of all the archetypes, how would you rate the vanilla Magus? And would you rate Str/Dex/Int builds differently?


^Not sure if that was for me, but here goes:

Although certain archetypes add certain strengths, Magus with no archetype is already really good. Nobody is going to call you a chump for picking Magus with no archetype. Even Hexcrafter, the most powerful archetype, does come with significant cost (Spell Recall), so it isn't a guaranteed no-brainer to choose unless your GM doesn't downgrade Improved Spell Recall (that doesn't get traded out) to Spell Recall.

As for Str/Dex/Int, it depends upon what you want to do, and what you started with. For instance, if you started with a fixed +2 to Dexterity, better go ahead and build upon that rather than trying to bump it over to Strength. Strength is best for direct damage, but since they forgot to nerf Dervish Dance the way they nerfed Slashing Grace and Fencing Grace, you can make Dexterity work for direct damage. Races with boosts to Dexterity and Intelligence are reasonably common (this includes Elf, although the Constitution penalty hurts), but races with boosts to Strength and Intelligence are rather rare. If you need to push Save DC or need extra skills, better go with Intelligence, especially if you are trying to debuff/control rather than do direct damage. (As for Charisma, I really wanted to like Eldritch Scion, but it just isn't a very good archetype, and doesn't compensate for poor Metamagic function with spontaneous casting, and since it doesn't boost your skill ranks per level to compensate for your being unable to afford much in the way of Intelligence, you won't be able to invest in the social skills you would want to for a Charisma-based caster; Sorcerer has the same problem, but at least they aren't as inherently MAD as Magi, so they can invest a bit more in Intelligence to compensate than what you would be able to do on an Eldritch Scion.)


Caemar wrote:
Hope this isn't too silly a question, but... relative to the ratings of all the archetypes, how would you rate the vanilla Magus? And would you rate Str/Dex/Int builds differently?

I assume this was directed at Kurald.

BUT

I'll weigh in too =P

I agree with most of what UnArcaneElection said. The Magus is a strong class, and probably gets a blue/green rating rating overall (Kurald obviously likes it or he wouldn't have spent the last 6 years supporting this guide). There are archetypes that are probably stronger than vanilla Magus, but not enough to make them auto-picks.

For the stats, I guess the INT-build makes Hexcrafter more appealing and the DEX-build makes Kensai/Eldritch-Archer more appealing (the STR-build makes these less appealing). The STR-build isn't inherently tailored to any archetypes, but it's also fine on most archetypes, and generally higher-damage/lower-utility than the DEX-build.

UnArcaneElection wrote:
As for Charisma, I really wanted to like Eldritch Scion, but it ... doesn't boost your skill ranks per level to compensate for your being unable to afford much in the way of Intelligence ...

This is what killed the Eldritch Scion for me. I could cope with the Metamagic stuff, but 2+INT skills is so hard on a non-INT-based class.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Caemar wrote:
Hope this isn't too silly a question, but... relative to the ratings of all the archetypes, how would you rate the vanilla Magus?

You can consider the vanilla Magus green; any green archetype is of more-or-less equal strength, any blue archetype is better (although, as pointed out above, not so much better that they become an automatic pick).

Quote:
And would you rate Str/Dex/Int builds differently?

No; the guide already points out their respective strengths and weaknesses. It's not the case that one of them is inherently better or worse than the others.


I was really asking anyone with a considered opinion, so all the above points are much appreciated!


Obviously Calcific Touch has been talked about a lot. Maybe I have missed it but, does the spells rules text supercede Spellstrikes or the other way around?

*I apologize if I missed this part in the conversation, admittedly there was a lot.

D20 wrote:
Your touch progressively transmutes the substance of creatures you touch into stone. Once per round, you may deliver a touch attack that inflicts 1d4 points of Dexterity damage and slows the target (as the spell) for 1 round. A successful Fortitude save negates the slow effect but not the ability damage. A target reduced to 0 Dexterity is petrified permanently. Break enchantment, restoration, or stone to flesh can reverse the effects of calcific touch.


Quote:
At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack.

Technically, the spell's text never stops being true, it's just that spell strike gives an alternative way of delivering the spell.


I assume, from Minigiant's bolded text, that he's under the impression someone was implying they could deal dexterity damage multiple times in a single round with multiple attacks.

As I understand it, that is not the case. In the exercises above, the spell is cast once, and used once per round.


kadance wrote:

I assume, from Minigiant's bolded text, that he's under the impression someone was implying they could deal dexterity damage multiple times in a single round with multiple attacks.

As I understand it, that is not the case. In the exercises above, the spell is cast once, and used once per round.

With something like Chilli touch, its effects can be delivered with each iterative attack. Does Calcific Touch do that or is it only once per round?


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Chilli touch? Beautiful, I want it.

I think calcific touch will only attach to one attack/round.


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Calcific Touch explicitly only lets you apply it once per round. Otherwise it would be even more brokenly overpowered.


Is it really worth it though, i.e. will it kill the Wyrm faster then "the old fashioned way? The thing about ability damage is that it's probably not cumulative with the damage the rest of the party is doing, or indeed your own regular attacks.

An empowered Frostbite targeting a dragons elemental weakness via Elemental Spell will dish out ~160 damage in the first round. The second round brings another ~140 Frostbite damage, and is then capped of by an ~80 damage intensified, empowered, elementally targeted shocking grasp.

All targeting touch AC, and all stacking with your party's damage in case spell resistance deflects some of your attacks.

Speaking of spell resistance, it's also much less all-or-nothing in that regard. If the Calcific Touch attacks get resisted twice in a row, you are almost certainly screwed.


^You still have the Spell Resistance problem with Frostbite and Shocking Grasp. High-end Dragons have insane Spell Resistance, as well as insane Saves (even Reflex, which is their worst). So Empowered Frostbite followed by Intensified Empowered Shocking Grasp could work, but it's no shoo-in either, and you still need the stacked Elven Magic + Spell Penetration + Greater Spell Penetration + Piercing Spell + your high caster level to get these to stick fairly reliably. And then if you want to cover all 4 elemental types you have to get Elemental Spell 4 times (unless all your main damage spells have 1 base damage type), or go VMC Wizard(Evoker(Adminxturer)) (which is the better deal if you're going to get Elemental Spell 4 or even 3 times, and lets you get your Elemental Spelling online faster, but either way your feat progression really suffers). And just to mess you up, not all Dragons have an Elemental Vulnerability, so multiply your damage estimates by 2/3 (and even in the case of Red Dragons which do have Cold Vulnerability, Red Dragon Wyrms have so many hit points that 2 rounds might not finish the job even if you get through Spell Resistance on both spells, whereas 2 hits of Maximized Magic (from Magus Arcana) Calcific Touch will if you get through Spell Resistance (and even Calcific Touch without Maximized Magic has a decent shot at it). Of course, by the time you get to a Red Wyrm, you are starting to have to worry about them having things like Antimagic Field, and Rods of Cancellation are expensive enough that you will have a hard time getting enough of them, and Disjunction isn't a very reliable way of getting rid of Antimagic Field anyway, so you had better have an Arcanist/Sorcerer/Wizard comrade who can cast Aroden's Spellbane against Antimagic Field (and against other critical spells the Dragon might cast), and then said comrade can also stack on Calcific Touch (with the aid of Reach Spell), which does stack with what you're doing.

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