blade tutor's spiritIt's a useful spell. However, instead of spending a feat to boost damage at a cost and casting a combat spell to offset the cost, you could also just cast a spell to boost damage directly :)
Or do both. BTS has round/level duration, and almost completely offsets power attack. I'm not sure I've ever read someone claim that power attack isn't worth it, and without a penalty, it's insane.
As far as I can tell, Blade Tutor's Spirit works on any penalty that you incur by your own choice of actions, as long as it is a penalty that you can get rid of by stopping that action (that is, you didn't curse or damage yourself to take a penalty). So Combat Expertise, Fighting Defensively, Power Attack, Spell Combat, and Two-Weapon Fighting (if for some weird reason you have that) all qualify.
Yes, but not all at once. You pick one when you cast the spell. You sorta have TWF with spell combat, btw.
Yes, but not all at once. You pick one when you cast the spell. You sorta have TWF with spell combat, btw.As far as I can tell, Blade Tutor's Spirit works on any penalty that you incur by your own choice of actions, as long as it is a penalty that you can get rid of by stopping that action (that is, you didn't curse or damage yourself to take a penalty). So Combat Expertise, Fighting Defensively, Power Attack, Spell Combat, and Two-Weapon Fighting (if for some weird reason you have that) all qualify.
Erm, what? Nowhere in that spell's description does it say that it only works on one choice at a time or even one per spell. It even says "One or more".
I'm sorry, you are correct. However, it only applies the total reduction, i.e., it doesn't apply the same reduction to every penalty, just an overall reduction.
^Yes, sorry I wasn't clear -- Blade Tutor's Spirit reduces penalties that you incur by your own choice of actions, but the amount of penalty reduction is applied to the total of all penalties, and is applied only once for each attack (and cannot reduce the total of penalties to less than 0). (It actually says all this in the spell description.)
No worries.
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I'm not sure I've ever read someone claim that power attack isn't worth it, and without a penalty, it's insane.
Power attack probably isn't worth it on a partial-BAB class that uses one-handed weapons. It's a different matter if you can get the benefits of PA without the penalties, though.
So would the magus or any of its archetypes actually benefit from the style feats? I like their flavor and hoping that a few might be beneficial to them.
Style feats work with Spell Combat just fine. However I haven't so far found any style feats that are a good pick for the Magus. I'm open to suggestions.
I'd prefer to go with the Dwarven Hatred line. Medium BAB demands bonuses to hit.
I'd prefer to go with the Dwarven Hatred line. Medium BAB demands bonuses to hit.
Problem is, that Dwarven Hatred Style requires you to get hit, and this is a hard sell for a Magus. Plus, if I'm going to play a Dwarf Magus, I'd probably rather spend the feats on getting to use a Dorn-Dergar one-handed, and I probably can't afford the feats for both.
I'm not sure I've ever read someone claim that power attack isn't worth it, and without a penalty, it's insane.Power attack probably isn't worth it on a partial-BAB class that uses one-handed weapons. It's a different matter if you can get the benefits of PA without the penalties, though.
So would the magus or any of its archetypes actually benefit from the style feats? I like their flavor and hoping that a few might be beneficial to them.Style feats work with Spell Combat just fine. However I haven't so far found any style feats that are a good pick for the Magus. I'm open to suggestions.
I have seen posts of (but NOT carefully studied) the concept of putting the Spear Dancing Style feat chain on a Staff Magus.
The problem with putting a Style Feat chain (not just the above) on a Magus is how much feat investment you need, when you just don't get very many bonus feats as a Magus (especially if you want to make it good by investing in Combat Maneuvers or something like that). If only feat chains and their prerequisites didn't nickel and dime(*) you to death . . . For instance, Spear Dancing Style requires Two-Weapon Fighting (which is normally not a good investment on a Magus) and Weapon Focus, and the 2nd and 3rd feats in the chain also require Weapon Finesse, which locks you into a Dexteriby-based build, and even if you manage to finagle getting the Dexterity-to-Damage feats to work with it, they don't play well with Spell Combat, as well as costing you at least 2 more feats (such as Bladed Brush and Slashing Grace).
(*)Actually more like Nickel and Dime Swarm.
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Some interesting suggestions above...
Crane Style changes fighting defensively changes from -4/+2 to -2/+3. However, it has two crappy preqres, and I don't think that's worth three feats. The Magus's best defense comes from his spells, so fighting defensively is not something he'd often do. Crane Wing would be decent except it doesn't work with Spell Combat.
Dwarven Hatred Style. Spend two feats and an immediate action to gain +2 to hit and damage against one opponent. That's clearly weaker than taking Weapon Focus + Weapon Spec, and those feats aren't great either.
Spear Dancing Style just costs way too many feats; there are easier ways to get reach on a Magus.
I really like the concept of styles, I just don't see them meshing very well with this class. And Cavernshark makes a good point that the Magus probably wants to spend his first two swift actions on something else. $.02
I'm not sure I've ever read someone claim that power attack isn't worth it, and without a penalty, it's insane.Power attack probably isn't worth it on a partial-BAB class that uses one-handed weapons. It's a different matter if you can get the benefits of PA without the penalties, though.
PA probably isn't interesting till mid levels anyway for the Magus. At low level they don't have many spell slots which are probably better used for casting something else. How would you make the most out of it, if you did take it? A frostbite build?
I'm not sure if anyone brought this up
but would a slayer dip be good for the magus? I figure studied target and the bonuses it gives wouldn't be to shabby
No not really. The magus gets really strong with levels cause he has so much scaling stuff, his pool power, his spell level power.
So the level dip isn't giving you enough to think it's a good idea, not that it's an awful choice, but it's not generally good.
I was seriously considering a one level dip in a full-BAB class for a Dwarf Magus I was going to make, since it lets me get Dorn-Dergar Master at level 5 instead of waiting until 7, but it's tough to justify dipping out of a spellcasting class.
An Int/Str based, armor wearing Kensai, who pumps his AC into the 50's, can make great use of Snake Fang.
I'm not sure I've ever read someone claim that power attack isn't worth it, and without a penalty, it's insane.Power attack probably isn't worth it on a partial-BAB class that uses one-handed weapons. It's a different matter if you can get the benefits of PA without the penalties, though.
Well, that was my context.
PA probably isn't interesting till mid levels anyway for the Magus. At low level they don't have many spell slots which are probably better used for casting something else. How would you make the most out of it, if you did take it? A frostbite build?I'm not sure I've ever read someone claim that power attack isn't worth it, and without a penalty, it's insane.Power attack probably isn't worth it on a partial-BAB class that uses one-handed weapons. It's a different matter if you can get the benefits of PA without the penalties, though.
I'd start using it until it was -2/+4, maybe a little later.
I'm not sure if anyone brought this up
but would a slayer dip be good for the magus? I figure studied target and the bonuses it gives wouldn't be to shabby
No not really. The magus gets really strong with levels cause he has so much scaling stuff, his pool power, his spell level power.
So the level dip isn't giving you enough to think it's a good idea, not that it's an awful choice, but it's not generally good.
The guys I play with love 1 or 2 level dips into things, regardless of their primary build class. I think it works fine for traditional classes, but I've always felt that it really acts as an impediment to the multi-function classes such as the magus. These classes really depend upon their very specific class abilities and delaying them for some other class' ability creates weaker characters, IMO.
I hooe I'm not derailing the thread, but I found a couple of good spells for the magus to add to his spell list. They're all evil in one form or another, though;
- Excruciating Deformation: REALLY nasty debuff that deals nonlethal, dex and con damage as well as hamper the target's speed every round. Note that there is no real save for this spell, only saving to resist its effects each turn. It targets fortitude, too!
- Black Sword of War: It gives your weapon bleed damage with every attack. It caps off at +5 and doesn't stack like a wounding weapon does, but it can help if you don't want to spend a +2 enhancement bonus. There is a pretty large caveat, though; the spell is a unique religious spell that belongs to Szuriel, the horsewoman of war. She's strictly Neutral Evil, so... yeah, this spell might not be worth it if you wanna be good!
- Bloody Tears and Jagged Smile: Now THIS is a spell worth hell! Like the one before, this spell belongs to Szuriel, but holy crap, does it cover a lot of bases: you gain a bite attack, a large profane bonus to intimidate checks, a large DC boost to any fear spells you cast, and you get the effects of the deathwatch spell! And you get all of this as a level 2 spell! The duration is great, too, at a whopping 10 minutes per level.
I was seriously considering a one level dip in a full-BAB class for a Dwarf Magus I was going to make, since it lets me get Dorn-Dergar Master at level 5 instead of waiting until 7, but it's tough to justify dipping out of a spellcasting class.
This might be reasonable if you retrained the full BAB level into another Magus level at character level 7 (if the full BAB class gave a bonus feat, apply your level 7 character feat to maintaining it, unless you wanted to retrain the feat too).
I was seriously considering a one level dip in a full-BAB class for a Dwarf Magus I was going to make, since it lets me get Dorn-Dergar Master at level 5 instead of waiting until 7, but it's tough to justify dipping out of a spellcasting class.This might be reasonable if you retrained the full BAB level into another Magus level at character level 7 (if the full BAB class gave a bonus feat, apply your level 7 character feat to maintaining it, unless you wanted to retrain the feat too).
I was thinking of fighter to nab Dorn-Dergar Master and Darting Viper at the same time, but I've played enough polearm characters that I figure Darting Viper might not be strictly necessary. So that's a good idea.
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I'm not sure if anyone brought this up
but would a slayer dip be good for the magus? I figure studied target and the bonuses it gives wouldn't be to shabby
One level? Not particularly, since studied target is a move action; and you need your move action either to get to melee, or to use Spell Combat. There are some good one-level dips for the Magus (e.g. bloodrager, rogue, or wizard), but this isn't one.
I wouldn't use Darting Viper actually, just permanently set your dorn dergar to reach and wear a gauntlet.
Snake Fang style is a good choice - not just for a Kensai but also with defensive spells like Mirror Image. But other than combat reflexes, it has three pretty bad feats as prerequisites. This really begs for dipping monk just to get two of them for free.
I hooe I'm not derailing the thread, but I found a couple of good spells for the magus to add to his spell list.
Not at all, that's precisely what this thread is for.
I'd say Excruciating Deformation is not so good, because the dex and con damage accumulates much too slowly to affect the combat (i.e. "after two rounds, if he's failed TWO saves, the enemy gets -1 to AC/Ref/Fort"). If it's just for the damage, you've got lower-level spells for that.
Black Sword of War is a good damage boost that stacks with pretty much everything. Unfortunately it's from a really obscure source that GMs are unlikely to allow.
The problem with Bloody Tears is that you can't use a bite attack in spell combat (unless you spend an arcana on it) and there's easier ways to get a bite attack. I don't believe the Magus has any good fear spells, but an intimidate boost is solid. Again, from a really obscure source.
An Int/Str based, armor wearing Kensai, who pumps his AC into the 50's, can make great use of Snake Fang.But kensai lose their armor proficiency
How would they be able to get that high of an Armor Class?
1 lvl dip for armor proficiency and using mithral to lower the ASF. Brawler makes for a great lvl dip here. If you have a bastard sword, Hunter (with no companion) for one lvl is also solid for evasion, Lead Blades spell, and the armor.
Snake Fang style is a good choice - not just for a Kensai but also with defensive spells like Mirror Image. But other than combat reflexes, it has three pretty bad feats as prerequisites. This really begs for dipping monk just to get two of them for free.
The reason for going Kensai on an Int first build is they get an insane number of AoO. This kind of build is best owning melee fully. Grt Trip is nasty with this. If you only pre-buff and use chill touch/frostbite for spell strike this build can make very good use of a 7 branched sword at lvl 13.
@Bladelock
Why take the brawler dip? Kensai are very level dependent for many class abilities. Wouldn't defensive spells like shield and mirror image be better than some armor?
Better is relative to the build you're making and how it is played. These are just non-standard options that can work well, not necessarily better or worse than standard option.
Martial Flexibility from Brawler is good as your BAB gets higher. If you get to a point where you can use Transformation it opens up full BAB feat option.
Shield stacks with Armor, and when combined with Kensai's Canny Defense it pushes AC pretty high. +6 AC on a high AC build can mean you get hit 5/6 fewer times. Of course I pop Mirror Image as well, but usually only need to during very tough fights. Just be careful putting up MI all the time, with a spiked AC, or your GM won't target you at all.
Or even bracers...
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Question. If you gestalt a Slayer/Kensai due to having the canny defense ability (which works with light armor) and the slayer gives light and medium armor proficiency, would it still work with light armor? As well, would the kensai be able to cast without the Spell failure chance due to having the armor proficiency?
Yes and no. Yes, the kensai gets the same canny defense ability as the duelist, so it does work in light armor. No, neither kensai nor slayer has the ability to ignore spell failure on any kind of armor (the baseline Magus does, but the kensai explicitly doesn't).
But you still end up with 10% spell failure from a mithril chain shirt... I'd rather use Mage Armor for that (via wand or spell blending).
That is fair. All depends on play style. Since that build doesn't need to cast much in combat it is not as painful as it would be on a shocking grasp magus.
Add Aqueous Orb as a 3rd level bc spell?
A swift action, Proficiency, and Arcane Armor Training feats.
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From the adventurer's armory 2, added Spring-loaded Scroll Case, Ring of Balanced Grip, Wildblood Concoction. The aquatic campaign guide has nothing particularly useful to the Magus.
Instead of Snake Fang, the Redirect Attack feat is worth considering; it's a comparable effect and the prerequisites are much easier.
Add Aqueous Orb as a 3rd level bc spell?
If you want to immobilize people, why not use the 2nd level Web spell?
The Magus is one of the few classes I have yet to play in Pathfinder, which is very odd for me since I have always been a huge player of gish characters, even when horribly sub-optimal. Even after reading this amazing guide from start to finish I still find building one tough. It feels... different than building any other class in Pathfinder, somehow more restrictive, but also with many options. It might be that I am subconsciously affected by every Magus I have every played beside playing very cookie cutter, being a shocking grasp damage dealer and doing very little else to help the party or be more interesting.
Instead of Snake Fang, the Redirect Attack feat is worth considering; it's a comparable effect and the prerequisites are much easier.
I really like Redirect Attack but just not on a Magus. There is good chance that the attack won't be redirected. Snake Fang is automatic. I planned to use it on an odd 2h magus build Vital Striking for 18d8+a lot (30d8+a lot on crits) but decided not to for table balance. If few feats are going to getting dex to damage, or casting feats then there is more than enough room for the feat tax of Snake Fang in the early teens.
The Magus is one of the few classes I have yet to play in Pathfinder, which is very odd for me since I have always been a huge player of gish characters, even when horribly sub-optimal. Even after reading this amazing guide from start to finish I still find building one tough. It feels... different than building any other class in Pathfinder, somehow more restrictive, but also with many options. It might be that I am subconsciously affected by every Magus I have every played beside playing very cookie cutter, being a shocking grasp damage dealer and doing very little else to help the party or be more interesting.
You need to look outside of the regular advice to get some unique but very powerful options from Magus. I just took a look at this guide and it is good but the assessment of archetypes like esoteric are very far off.
+1 damage from UA trait4 attacks vs 3 attacks at lvl 8 (6vs4 at 15)
significantly larger base damage
multiple size increases on larger base damage
use of brawler armor enchantment
use of body wrap of mighty strike
use of amulet of mighty fists
on top of all the other damage increasing options of a vanilla magus make that archetype a significant one. With Artful Dodge it can also be Int first, increasing out of combat skill usage. There is a lot beyond the cookie cutter.
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You need to look outside of the regular advice to get some unique but very powerful options from Magus. I just took a look at this guide and it is good but the assessment of archetypes like esoteric are very far off.
Well, the baseline Magus deals very good damage all by itself. So the fact that an archetype deals good damage doesn't make it stand out in any way; archetypes are not rated on DPR.
And your assessment appears to be off. There's nothing in the esoteric archetype that gives it more attacks than a regular Magus. Mighty fists and mighty strikes are both enhancement bonuses so they don't stack. Damage bonuses from a trait or from size apply to every archetype, not just to this one. So that leaves you with a slightly bigger damage die and a smaller crit range, and with diminished spellcasting. That's still not bad or anything, but neither is it amazing.
It's rather funny how you jump straight from "I somewhat disagree on one archetype" to "the assessment of EVERYTHING is WAAAAY OFF!" :D
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The Magus is one of the few classes I have yet to play in Pathfinder, which is very odd for me since I have always been a huge player of gish characters, even when horribly sub-optimal. Even after reading this amazing guide from start to finish I still find building one tough. It feels... different than building any other class in Pathfinder, somehow more restrictive, but also with many options. It might be that I am subconsciously affected by every Magus I have every played beside playing very cookie cutter, being a shocking grasp damage dealer and doing very little else to help the party or be more interesting.
That's an interesting question. I suggest you start by deliberately avoiding Shocking Grasp, and take it from there. Would you like to be a maneuver specialist? Stack four or five debuff effects on every hit? Be an enchantment-based debuffer? Have arguably the best mobility of any melee class? Have an intelligent weapon by your side?
You can do any of that; just read over the second and third sample build, or look at some of the more unique archetypes like Bladebound, Card Caster, Eldritch Scion, Mindblade, and Puppetmaster. And be sure to add your favorite spell from the wizard's list.
You need to look outside of the regular advice to get some unique but very powerful options from Magus. I just took a look at this guide and it is good but the assessment of archetypes like esoteric are very far off.Well, the baseline Magus deals very good damage all by itself. So the fact that an archetype deals good damage doesn't make it stand out in any way; archetypes are not rated on DPR.
And your assessment appears to be off. There's nothing in the esoteric archetype that gives it more attacks than a regular Magus. Mighty fists and mighty strikes are both enhancement bonuses so they don't stack. Damage bonuses from a trait or from size apply to every archetype, not just to this one. So that leaves you with a slightly bigger damage die and a smaller crit range, and with diminished spellcasting. That's still not bad or anything, but neither is it amazing.
It's rather funny how you jump straight from "I somewhat disagree on one archetype" to "the assessment of EVERYTHING is WAAAAY OFF!" :D
I didn't say everything is way off. However you did some good work here so I respect the push back. For clarification there are only few archetypes that I strongly disagree with on first glance. I think both myrmidarch and Esoteric is much better than listed, and staff is weaker than listed (it's only pro is a shield bonus that is not much better than a shield spell through most lvls).
Esoteric gets extra attacks from 2wf, I2wf, & g2wf. A regular magus can't carry 2 weapons and still use spell combat like an Esoteric. If they did decide to carry 2 weapons they would not be able to use their pool points to enhance both at the same time (with the exception of spellblabe). That means that in most cases they will not get the extra attacks by 2wf, and if they did it would be inferior to the Esoteric.
Size increases to damage for the Esoeric come from enhancing fists with Impact and size increases from spells. While size increases are minor on a light or 1h weapon, the gains are significant with the scaling IUS. At 8th lvl it is 1d10>2d8>3d8. At lvl 13 it is 2d6>3d6>4d6>6d6 when it is possible to polymorph into huge size. The damage difference is significant.
The amulet of mighty fists can have naked special abilities without enhancements so they stack nicely with body wraps.
Not related to the above (I think): Here's a question I've been wondering about for a while: Any good way to leverage high Wisdom on a Magus, other than the obvious advice of taking advantage of it for your better Will Save and Wisdom-based skills such as Perception and Sense Motive? This could come up in 2 situations: Your race gives you a fixed bonus to Wisdom, and you'd like to use it for more than just shaving it for point buy points; or you actually rolled stats that are decent for a Magus, but Wisdom also happened to come up good. Unfortunately Magus doesn't have anything equivalent to Eldritch Scion (uses Charisma for casting) for Wisdom -- closest thing is Phantom Blade Spiritualist (which itself is not a bad idea, but doesn't get some of the things that the Magus gets, notably Magus Arcana and some of the spells).
Other things that come to mind:
- Gunslinger dip, if you need that for some other reason (such as using Grit to make Ranged Spellstrike into a Ranged Touch Attack and then getting an enchanted firearm). (Requires that you also have good Dexterity unless you somehow manage to get Guided Hand with it -- see below.)
- Dipping Monk for WisMod to AC. (Requires that you use a Magus archetype that is okay with being unarmored.)
- Going VMC Monk to get scaling Improved Unarmed Strike without the Esoteric Magus archetype, and eventually get a Wisdom-based Ki pool that you can patch into your Arcane Pool (unfortunately this comes only at 11th level, and most of the other VMC Monk abilities are not all that great by the time you get them). (Requires that you use a Magus archetype that is okay with being unarmored.)
- Also a niche possibility: If you worship Torag and use a Warhammer, get Torag's Divine Fighting Technique instead of Combat Reflexes if your Wisdom is higher than your Dexterity (this goes better with the Phantom Blade Spiritualist, for which you really want to pump your Wisdom instead of just having good Wisdom as icing on the cake, although beware that if you reform your weapon to something other than a Warhammer, this won't work until you change it back).
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Esoteric gets extra attacks from 2wf, I2wf, & g2wf. A regular magus can't carry 2 weapons and still use spell combat like an Esoteric.
Where are you getting this from? As written, spell combat works "like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast"; so I don't see how this can stack with TWF.
Not related to the above (I think): Here's a question I've been wondering about for a while: Any good way to leverage high Wisdom on a Magus, other than the obvious advice of taking advantage of it for your better Will Save and Wisdom-based skills such as Perception and Sense Motive?
Torag's Patient Strikes feat? Spell blending for Mage Armor spell so you can be unarmored?