No, she gets half because fire, but she has a utility talent for more damage, so that should give +2 more. Incidentally, they did a really great job with Yoon, but I personally think it would have been easier for a new player to use her if they had worked out the changes for max burn (there's also a size bonus in it for her if she so chooses, which, if applied to Con, gives her another +1 damage, for a total of 8d6+9).
Coincidentally it would also allow her to accept even more burn.
Alright Mark and friends, I've finally finished my first kineticist. How does she look? Did the complexities of the class make for any glaring errors? Considering her relatively low level, I absolutely can't believe that the Special Abilities section alone takes up more than 2/3 of the character sheet!
The only glaring thing to me is the choice of a dex belt over a con belt, but I suppose that comes down to personal preference.
The more I learn about this class, the more I love it. It just needs more support so the kineticists sharing elements don't all look alike. More infusions! More utility! More alls-tha-things!
The only glaring thing to me is the choice of a dex belt over a con belt, but I suppose that comes down to personal preference.
Yeah, it was a tough call, but in the end, I felt 2/3 of her blasts would miss more often than not without it. Being primarily a blasting character, being able to hit what you're aiming at is pretty important. Also, don't most DPR gurus generally prioritize accuracy over damage?
Higher DCs and damage would have been nice, but what good is that if I can't even hit the target in the first place?
And I agree that it's a preference thing. My concern is more about additional available burn than DCs and damage.
7 burn, or 49 nonlethal damage isn't enough for you? lol.
All depends on how you plan to play. Like I said, purely a preference thing. I may be jaded for thinking about a dwarven Elemental Devastator with Earth selected. Very different feel, but that emphasizes CON quite a bit more.
I've found that good, solid race choices for kineticist are hobgoblins, humans, and merfolk. The first and third have great ability attributes for the class and are also thematically appropriate (with hobgoblins fanning the flames of war with their pyrokineticists and merfolk displaying a mastery over water with their hydrokineticists). The second (humans), however, have an alternate racial trait that can also give them +2/+2 to Dex/Con AND have a favored class bonus that will net them more wild talents AND they are more likely to be allowed in play.
The Kuru also get a +2 to dex and con though they would make better melee focused kineticist because of there racial abilities and mentality.
It looks like I'm going to have to make a Fist of the North Star Elemental Annihilator.
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For a class that will be taking nonlethal damage per hit die a lot, it might actually be worth using retraining rules to put some time and money into maxing HP per HD, but I don't know how good of a deal that is.
For a class that will be taking nonlethal damage per hit die a lot, it might actually be worth using retraining rules to put some time and money into maxing HP per HD, but I don't know how good of a deal that is.
That's GREAT advice! I can't believe I hadn't thought of it myself.
Though you can certainly go nova, I think the intent is that you only use burn when you need it, and not go totally crazy. Having a bunch of at-will abilities basically means you can bide your time and pick away at foes who aren't a real threat to you.
For a class that will be taking nonlethal damage per hit die a lot, it might actually be worth using retraining rules to put some time and money into maxing HP per HD, but I don't know how good of a deal that is.That's GREAT advice! I can't believe I hadn't thought of it myself.
Though you can certainly go nova, I think the intent is that you only use burn when you need it, and not go totally crazy. Having a bunch of at-will abilities basically means you can bide your time and pick away at foes who aren't a real threat to you.
The Kineticist also has a number of mitigation mechanics to reduce the burn. A smart Kineticist knows when to use burn, and when to wear down opponents. They make amazing guerilla fighters, especially when many of them have some incredible movement techniques, including flight, the ability to move through the earth etc.
Also, does the Kineticist still have Ride the Blast? It was a Wild Talent that lets the Kineticist turn into their elemental energy and, basically, "teleport" to the location of her blast.
For a class that will be taking nonlethal damage per hit die a lot, it might actually be worth using retraining rules to put some time and money into maxing HP per HD, but I don't know how good of a deal that is.That's GREAT advice! I can't believe I hadn't thought of it myself.
Though you can certainly go nova, I think the intent is that you only use burn when you need it, and not go totally crazy. Having a bunch of at-will abilities basically means you can bide your time and pick away at foes who aren't a real threat to you.
The Kineticist also has a number of mitigation mechanics to reduce the burn. A smart Kineticist knows when to use burn, and when to wear down opponents. They make amazing guerilla fighters, especially when many of them have some incredible movement techniques, including flight, the ability to move through the earth etc.
Also, does the Kineticist still have Ride the Blast? It was a Wild Talent that lets the Kineticist turn into their elemental energy and, basically, "teleport" to the location of her blast.
yes they have ride the blast. it's a utility talent i think
This is one class you can't just skim. I found it hard to figure out till I made a character. In making the character it all fell into place. From just reading it was hard to grasp, writing out the character I found made it much easier.
This is one class you can't just skim. I found it hard to figure out till I made a character. In making the character it all fell into place. From just reading it was hard to grasp, writing out the character I found made it much easier.
Same here. Having Yoon's statblock on hand also helped me figure out how best to format all the new rules.
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To me, the big problem is you pick from a list of wild talents, but even level wild talents have to be pulled from the list of utility wild talents. But the big list of wild talents only singles out influsions, so you have to flip between the various types and subtypes of wild talents to find out which are utility and which are not.
It's a little like if a wizard had to take an abjuration spell every other level but the list of spells only called out evocation spells and each spell school was grouped separately.
Utility wild talents really should have had their own name to help differentiate and all other wild talents should have been grouped.
It's an organizational mess.
Which is deeply ironic and the class is meant to be the simple psychic class. The "blast things with elements" class. But instead it's the barbarian all over again.
To me, the big problem is you pick from a list of wild talents, but even level wild talents have to be pulled from the list of utility wild talents. But the big list of wild talents only singles out influsions, so you have to flip between the various types and subtypes of wild talents to find out which are utility and which are not.
It's a little like if a wizard had to take an abjuration spell every other level but the list of spells only called out evocation spells and each spell school was grouped separately.Utility wild talents really should have had their own name to help differentiate and all other wild talents should have been grouped.
It's an organizational mess.
Which is deeply ironic and the class is meant to be the simple psychic class. The "blast things with elements" class. But instead it's the barbarian all over again.
Anything that's not a blast or an infusion is a utility talent.
Though you can certainly go nova, I think the intent is that you only use burn when you need it, and not go totally crazy. Having a bunch of at-will abilities basically means you can bide your time and pick away at foes who aren't a real threat to you.
I can see aetherkineticists and hydrokineticists burning to up their defenses at the start of the day. That way, they'll get the defense and all the associated benefits (bonus to hit and damage to blasts, stat boosts, fortification) all day long.
It's an organizational mess.
I agree!
Which is deeply ironic and the class is meant to be the simple psychic class. The "blast things with elements" class. But instead it's the barbarian all over again.
Actually, it's very simple to build a version that doesn't need to burn beyond what they can soak. When you get that, it's an easy class to play. One of the simplest.
There's a lot of things you can do to help keep this class simple when it comes time to play. Starting with sinking burn into your defense(s) to your EO limit then adding more burn to your taste at the start of every day too keep numbers consistent and simple . Then at each level you evaluate what your costless blast options are, and from there what cost would modifying those add(for example, you have infusion specialization 2, so your free options are extended reach burning and errupyion, and burning or empower have a cost of 1 to be negated with gathering power, so instead of worrying about cost every time you cast, you already know what you can do)
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Alright, I think I got the basics of the class, although I'll have to read all the different talents in detail to see what I would want to play (although no danger of that, I am currently GM'ing two groups with many a month to go for both campaigns).
I'll say that putting nine very long and complex descriptions of class abilities (and some shorter ones) before you even get to see what all those wild talents and infusions and thingamajigs can do, made it definitely a chore to read through the class. It's doable, but it definitely is the most complex D20 class I ever read through and I've never had this problem with any other Paizo class before.
I guess that's a sign of its versatility, but, man. I'll be looking at the other classes throughout the next days, I hope they are less complicated. I hope that the Occultist really is the "Harry Dresden" type of class, which I remember a developer saying during the playtest.
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I am finding that once you have the basics down if I had any complaint at least in the first 7 levels is how little choice I have. The low level list is fairly short for each element and I am hoping the future will see them expand some to give more options. I will see how it will play out in my new game that is starting this weekend.
Same feeling here, if you don't want to use the blast for melee the first few inufusion choices are pretty limited.
Keep in mind that every time a new class has come out, the options for it are usually pretty limited unless it builds off the options of a previous class.
I mean, look at Rage Powers or Rogue Talents. They used to suck (and Rogue Talents still tend to do so) but as time has gone on, more and more options have come out.
I would say that the Kineticist's Wild Talents are probably fairly strong, for a first set of options, when you compare it to things that have come before. With as popular as the class is likely to become (unless it gets hardcore nerfed, which in the current climate, is always a possibility), more options and expansions are likely to come.
I've created a second kineticist. Seems easy now, now that I've gotten past the hurdles. [Link]
Here I am, telling people repeatedly that Kineticists are more than just blasters, they can make great ambushers, scouts and guerrilla styled characters, and then you come along and make a perfect example of one :P
"Only a small spark is needed to fan the flames of war."
- Hagor, Hobgoblin MercenaryHagor, a 7th-level pyrokineticst, is an intelligent career soldier of fortune who favors ambush tactics and other close, straightforward assaults. During battle he will often set up smoke screens to blind and debilitate his foes while he spreads fire and panic amongst their dying screams. His gas mask, air crystals, and firesight ensure that he never succumbs to the choking smoke as well. He fights without fear, knowing full well that his talisman protects him from death, bestowing a one time breath of life spell upon him (CL 9th) before crumbling into worthless dust should he ever fall in battle.
The thing about kineticist's complexity that really annoys me is that quite a lot of it is unnecessary.
Burn in particular—with its limit per round, buffer, elemental overflow, reduction of infusion costs, move actions to reduce burn costs, etc—is really overcomplicated for what it actually does in play.
I'm pretty sure you could tear out most of it, replace it with a "you can use X points worth of abilities each round; take 10 nonlethal damage to increase X by 1 for a round" mechanic, and it wouldn't change how the class works in play at all, other than allowing it to actually use move actions instead of spending them on Gather Power all the time.
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I was prepared for a very nonstandard class. It's a non-vancian non-spellcasting spellcaster. So prepared for that. I took to reading the class carefully.
Wild talents: Wow. What a mouthful. There's some oddly phrased rules here that could have been made much clearer. Essentially there are wild talents for each element (aether, fire, air, water, earth) and also universal talents. All of these talents are classified as either blasts, utility, infusion and defense. None of this is particularly clear in this section. But when you read the wild talents they're all sorted which makes it much clearer.
Burn: Basically she can hurt herself to deal more damage. It cleverly uses nonlethal damage (a rarely used damage type) to disincentivize overcharging her wild talents. Taking the -4 to hit or using saps could definitely be worthwhile against a kineticist.
Blast: Alright we get a simple blast. That's a new type. It seems blasts have two subtypes simple and (after some flipping) composite. Great. It has some sensible precautions (no vital strike) and some buffs (can take weapon focus).
Gather Power: If you give her time she can empower her blast to allow her to overcharge the wild talent without taking damage. Interesting. Seems like a pre-combat buff though. I'll have to look at the wild talents to see if it pays off. Oh, and insert an image here of goku or Ryu.
Infusions: It's Metamagic for kinetic blasts. And there's two new subtypes. You burn to use them now.
Elemental Overflow: You overtly look like a spellcaster but get some combat benefits for this.
Infusion Specialist: You reduce how much burn you take for using infusions.
Metakinesis: Actually it turns out this is Metamagic feats for kinetic blasts.
Internal Buffer: Great. You can now use gather power as an actual pre-combat buff and spend it at any point later that day.
Expanded Element: You can multiclass with kineticist!
Supercharge: Improved gathering!
Metakinetic Master: No longer burn for using Metamagic feats.
Omnikinesis: You know how you've been tracking which wild talents you know for 19 levels? Doesn't matter anymore. You know them all now.
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This is a very complex character. A lot of moving parts as opposed to barbarians (you get X rounds of rage per day) or wizards (you know X spells and can cast Y spells). In play this might be a very fulfilling and satisfying character. But it is so different from everything in the CRB and the way it is explained does not make it easier to relate.
Like the OP I suspect that a simple rewording of how this class is written could make this class so much simpler. I might get try my hand at it to see how difficult it is.
I suspect a lot of the difficulty is the kineticist bending over backwards to avoid using the phrase "power points" or "psychic points" so as to differentiate itself from 3.5e Psionics and DSP's psionics. I appreciate the effort at drawing that very distinct line, but I suspect that's where most of the complexity is coming from.
I feel it would have been enough to have state that blasts, defense, infusions (and its two sub-categories), and utility were all different types of wild talents. Would have saved a bit of page space too probably.Yeah, that's how I initially had it. I find this feedback extremely useful in the PDT's conversations with the editors though, in the future (in case we have to decide something like this, where the editors generally prefer spelling it out as being less confusing), so thank you!
I can back this up. The second I saw there were different types of wild talents it all made sense. Having also dropped the word "wild" and called them "blast talents" or "infusion talents" or even "blasts" and "infusions" would have been easier.
If people really are having a hard time doing the math on pen and paper then switch to hero lab. A couple of clicks and the math you have to do in your head is done for you. There are always easier ways to do things.
I've found electronic character builders actively disadvantages people in understanding how their character works and results in them simply blindly accepting what the builder says rather than trying to understand the character (I've also yet to find an electronic character builder that was 100% accurate). YMMV of course.
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Gather Power is only for blasts, sadly...
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I wanted to post a few clarifications for you. Nice synopsis though. :)
Burn: Basically she can hurt herself to deal more damage. It cleverly uses nonlethal damage (a rarely used damage type) to disincentivize overcharging her wild talents. Taking the -4 to hit or using saps could definitely be worthwhile against a kineticist.
Actually, doing non-lethal vs lethal does not offer any benefit versus the kineticist (or any other foe). Both damage types contribute to knocking your foe unconscious, so there is no reason to take penalties or switch weapons to do non-lethal.
Gather Power: If you give her time she can empower her blast to allow her to overcharge the wild talent without taking damage. Interesting. Seems like a pre-combat buff though. I'll have to look at the wild talents to see if it pays off. Oh, and insert an image here of goku or Ryu.
You can use Gather Power for more than just empowering, it can be used to reduce any burn on a blast (e.g. the cost of 2 high burn infusions can be offset by gathering power first). As for pre-combat buffing, you can do that as a full round action but remember that it is very loud and showy, it could spoil any surprise you would otherwise have.
Internal Buffer: Great. You can now use gather power as an actual pre-combat buff and spend it at any point later that day.
The benefit of internal buffer is in saving it for the next day. If you use it the same day you haven't really gained anything. You've still taken 1 burn worth of NL damage in exchange for the normal benefits that burn gives. If you save it until the next day (by for instance putting burn in your buffer at the end of the adventuring day), the NL damage has gone away but you still get to spend the buffered burn for its normal benefits.
I wanted to post a few clarifications for you. Nice synopsis though. :)
Burn: Basically she can hurt herself to deal more damage. It cleverly uses nonlethal damage (a rarely used damage type) to disincentivize overcharging her wild talents. Taking the -4 to hit or using saps could definitely be worthwhile against a kineticist.Actually, doing non-lethal vs lethal does not offer any benefit versus the kineticist (or any other foe). Both damage types contribute to knocking your foe unconscious, so there is no reason to take penalties or switch weapons to do non-lethal.
There's one benefit of doing non-lethal to a kineticist with burn, they can't heal their way out of it. But in combat healing is generally a bad idea anyway, so it's not too relevant in practice.
Wow. Lots of misinformation floating around. Lots of corrections needing to be posted.
This, I think, is good evidence of what I was talking about in the first place.
Burn is going to confuse a lot of the more casual groups. No one ever seems to know the rules for nonlethal damage.
Thanks for the corrections. On a second read through I picked up even more that I had initially missed (namely how the composite blasts work). This is definitely a class that's going to take several read throughs to get right.
The more I read the class the more I like it. But dang is it complicated when read through the eyes of someone accustomed to standard Pathfinder.
Wow. Lots of misinformation floating around. Lots of corrections needing to be posted.It's like people don't even read the book before arguing...
Burn is going to confuse a lot of the more casual groups. No one ever seems to know the rules for nonlethal damage.
I'm hoping having a prominent mechanic that uses nonlethal damage will change that. Simply by using burn will cause a lot of casual groups to have a second look at the rules and go "oh wait."
You mean like Kinetic Healer? ;)
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Burn contributes to your non-lethal damage total. When that total exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious. Temporary hit points contribute to your current hit points.
So imagine a 3rd level kineticist with 30 maximum hit points uses two burn. This means he has 6 non-lethal damage. He then takes 25 points of damage from an orc's crit. Now he has 5 hit points and 6 non-lethal damage, so he's unconscious. His cleric friend casts aid on him, giving him 5 temporary hit points. So he has 6 non-lethal damage and 10 hit points. Hence, he's conscious.
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Now he has 5 hit points and 6 non-lethal damage, so he's unconscious. His cleric friend casts aid on him, giving him 5 temporary hit points. So he has 6 non-lethal damage and 10 hit points. Hence, he's conscious.
You sure about that? I'm not so sure temporary hit points count as actual healing for the purposes of things like making you regain consciousness. I imagine they are more like a damage buffer and little else. If you have already accumulated enough damage to lose consciousness in the first place, adding a buffer isn't going to do you much good.
temp HP act in all ways as HP, so yes he'd gain consciousness but when the spell ends he'd go unconscious again if he didn't receive healing
I am mistaken, it does indeed keep them separate from current HP
Now he has 5 hit points and 6 non-lethal damage, so he's unconscious. His cleric friend casts aid on him, giving him 5 temporary hit points. So he has 6 non-lethal damage and 10 hit points. Hence, he's conscious.You sure about that? I'm not so sure temporary hit points count as actual healing for the purposes of things like making you regain consciousness. I imagine they are more like a damage buffer and little else. If you have already accumulated enough damage to lose consciousness in the first place, adding a buffer isn't going to do you much good.
Huh! You seem to be right. I suspect this isn't intentional because that means someone with a large buffer of temporary hit points (say from vampiric touch but who had been dropped pretty low beforehand could be dropped by minimal nonlethal damage but would require a lot of lethal damage to be brought low. That seems like a bug to me...
I'll have to think about what this means for me. I'll probably continue to compare nonlethal to temp+real for when you're knocked out, but if real<0, I probably won't let temp make you conscious. This isn't the first quirk of nonlethal. For example, Diehard doesn't technically bypass the nonlethal unconsciousness.
Huh! You seem to be right. I suspect this isn't intentional because that means someone with a large buffer of temporary hit points (say from vampiric touch but who had been dropped pretty low beforehand could be dropped by minimal nonlethal damage but would require a lot of lethal damage to be brought low. That seems like a bug to me...
Hadn't thought of that. Does seem a little buggy.